557: From a Place of Passion

Hello and welcome to Connected, episode 557. Today is Wednesday, June 18th, 2025. This episode is made possible by our sponsors, Squarespace and Terminal. My name is Stephen Hackett. I may have already said that. I don't remember. And I'm joined by Mr. Mike Hurley. Hello, Stephen. It is my pleasure to introduce to this program the Ricky Benchman, Federico Bottici. Hello, I'm here. It's so good to be called like that. Hi.

I'm the Benchman. I changed my trophy today. I realized I hadn't done it. Oh, I need to do that. It's not correctly reflecting to show Federico as the Benchman. Congratulations. Thank you. You're really holding the show together. But it could have been much worse. I was so close. You were so close. I didn't realize this until I was kind of tidying up after the show last week.

Currently, Federico, you are the keynote chairman, the annual chairman, and you won the annual flexis. Oh, Federico. I have the keynote flexis, so I am the last. The last stand between us and the future where Federico reigns supreme. Right, right. You are the European Union to my United States. You could also put it like that. Yes. You know, that's an interesting topic. You should find him.

10% of Federico's revenue for the year yeah it's yours that could be yours I mean this only means one thing that in September I have or if Apple's gonna do I don't know like another October event this year I don't know but I gotta if I can win

both the keynote again and the keynote flexes, it'll be, what is it going to be that I get to choose my own name? You get to choose your own name. So everybody can look forward to the most boring flexi pics of all time coming your way later on this year. You gotta be strong.

Just the least passion possible coming your way. I mean, look at this chart. You know, I do what I have to do. We're playing. Stephen, you use Notion in light mode? I use my Mac in light mode. Yeah. I mean, the Mac in light mode is one thing, but I don't know. Notion's just like, it's too white. It's just too much. It's too bright. I don't. I really dislike dark mode and Mac apps.

I use dark mode all the time, wherever I can. Love it. You know what I noticed with dark mode? That if I use dark mode too much, no matter the device that I'm using... When I look, and like, especially if I'm reading text, right? So dark background, light or white text on top of it. When I look away, I get that... thing in my eyes where I still see the text. You know what's it called? Like persistence? Visual aberration.

Something like that. I have no idea. I have no idea. There's a, like, residual vision? I don't know. I like that. But it only happens with dark mode. Like, I stare at a dark mode screen. For too long, when I'm reading, I look away, I see the text in front of my eyes still. Well, that's what you think. Maybe when you use it in light mode, your entire eyeballs are blown out.

Right. I mean, I would prefer that, you know. Okay. Okay, well, I don't know. Yeah, it's like burning on your eyes, right? Yeah, yeah. You got visual burning. That doesn't sound good, Federico. I think maybe your screen's too bright. I think you might have the brightness up too high. I don't know. I don't know. It only happens with the dark mode though. Do you still do manual brightness adjustment?

No, no, no. Okay, because you used to do that, didn't you? I used to do that, but then their algorithm got pretty good, I think. Hey, we might have a problem. Okay. The Discord called foul.

on me calling Federico the annual Flexis Champ. So I'm looking it up. You're making this sound like something so much more serious than it actually is, by the way. I think Mike... is actually the annual Flexi's winner. This is why we don't just trust your manually updated Discord document for this information. Like, I use all of the websites. Yeah, that's probably better. Yeah.

That's Mike. Well, I'm also saving us from... I'm actually the real person saving from tyranny. Right, right. Because I'm holding this down for the entire year. I could fall in the fall. It just means that my consolidation will happen in January, 2026. I mean, it's. I'm just saying, you know, this is me training for that moment, you know? By the way, now I've just opened up the 2025...

annual Ricky's page and it's a bloodbath. I'm just going to tell you that right now. We had a lot of hopes about what was going to happen this year and a lot of it just doesn't look like it's happening. Where does one find such page? Ricky's.co or Ricky's.net. They both have them as ongoing games. That's where you can go find the stuff. Like, for example, Apple announces a new standalone Siri app based on a new LLM. Ooh, rough.

Any day now. It can still happen. The year is not over. I should be getting that point. A new iPhone SE is introduced with a new... I never said that there were no points. Also, you have iPhone SE. Oh, potentially a new name. Yeah, you get that one. Yeah. We will litigate that at the end of the year. There are points scored. I'm just saying there's a lot of stuff that isn't. But...

We're only halfway through, so, you know, we still get that standalone Siri app. Let's not get distracted. Mac OS 16 includes a controversial change. That's a flexi for me. I'm sorry, there was no Mac OS 16. Rough. iOS 19 brings agreements with new AI partners. Rough. I don't know. There's no Mac OS 16, so... Yeah, you're off by 10 version numbers, my friend. Sucks to be you. Sorry about that. It's hard to keep up with time when you get older. Also, the system hasn't shipped yet, so...

I actually do have another one. So I saw this on 9to5Mac. The glove cursor has changed. Well, the hand used to be a glove, and now it's just like a regular hand. Does this make you mad too? You want to make a crusade on this change? It's pretty mad, but what I have to... I have to... focus my energy on the Finder icon. Okay. Because I feel like I can make a real difference in the world. Have you? Well, not yet, but we haven't seen Dev Beta 2. Soon. Soon.

But not yet. Not yet. And our friend D Griffin Jones had a blog post proposal for a new finder icon that basically just flips it. Looks fine. Pretty good. But yeah, the colors are still bad. Still makes me angry when I... Look at my beta Mac. Isn't this exactly what you would want, though? What Degrafin made? Yeah, no, I think if you're going to do glass, that's the way to do it. Right.

I'm just not convinced glass is the right thing for the finder icon at all, but it's fine. Well, it's going to have to happen, so you should just find the thing that you're excited for. I can make it really big in Notion. That's fun. Good for you. Good news. Okay. I got a new phone.

I flip-flopped. Oh, goodness. I am now using the Motorola Rocker E1. Listener Matt made my day. It came, it found its way across the border to me. I unboxed it. Mike, you had suggested, and I think it's in a screenshot of Federico's article, that I do a video unboxing it. It doesn't boot up. I have some batteries on the way from eBay.

So if they work and don't burn my office down, I do want to do something like showing the interface and getting it to sync with an old version of iTunes. So hopefully there's more to come from this, but at the very least, I want to show pictures of it on Instagram. Could you use this? Would it even work? With an old version of iTunes. No, but like, could it connect to a network? No, no, surely not. Like, what is this, probably Edge or something? Like 2D? If it even, yeah.

or something even older. I don't even know. What, it connects to Wi-Fi, do you think? I don't think it had Wi-Fi. Incredible. I'd be shocked if it had Wi-Fi. How'd you get the music on it? It must have had Wi-Fi. How did you get the music? Oh, you load it on there. Duh. With a cable. Yeah, with a cable. Really, really long internet cable. You nailed it. Around the streets. There you go.

Speaking of music, Apple Music Replay is now a native part of the music app. It's no longer an embedded web view. So this is in iOS 26. I'm interested to see what the new experience will look like this year, if they actually are able to make it an embedded part of the app rather than like a website. So you can go in and see stuff now. It's there. Your information is there. You can go through the year, and it shows kind of what the web interface looked like.

hoping that they can do something a little bit more interesting. They're not going to get to Spotify levels, like they're just not, because Spotify is so important to their business, Spotify Wrapped. But maybe now it would be a little bit better now that it's built into the app. I don't know. But I thought it was fun to see. How do you find Apple Music Replay inside the app?

I couldn't tell you. I found it on 9to5Mac. I don't know where it lives, but apparently it lives somewhere. Ryan has a screenshot of it. Yeah, it looks like following a link to the web will open replay. Sometimes in Apple Music, I get recommended to look at the playlist that it makes. Maybe it's like there instead, you know, like maybe that kind of section.

Yeah, it looks more native than before, that's for sure. Yeah, rather than... For a while, it was just a WebView. Then they embedded the WebView inside of the Music app. Yeah. And now it's actually just Music UI. Yeah, it's kind of nice. It's kind of nice. Can it tell me how much music I listen to on my Motorola phone? That's all I want to know. Probably. As long as you're... I wonder if that...

No, because it won't connect to a network. I was going to say, you could probably transfer some music and then scrabble the music from the rocker. I need to set up a thing that listens to the music coming out of the tiny headphones. Yes. And records it. Yes. And scrobbles it. Yeah. Every day I'm scrobbling. That's a weekend project. Federico, you have a bold claim. Okay.

Yes, I do. I'm quoting you to yourself. Kudos to the Reminders team for shipping my favorite control ever in iOS 26's Control Center. What is this? This is awesome. So this is a new control in the iOS 26 control center. I think it's part of the new visual snippets things for app intents, where apps can basically now present these interactive snippets. that allow you to perform actions with interactivity from the snippet without launching an app with more interactivity than you had before.

so like for example here you press a button in control center and it opens this mini reminders ui that lets you enter a reminder, supports natural language, lets you switch between lists, lets you assign a location, a date or a flag. And so it's like, it is literally like a mini reminders interface. activated from a control so that you stay in control center, but you get a whole bunch of features from reminders. And I think it's part of that framework, which...

I saw some speculation and I think it makes a lot of sense. That framework, the snippets for AppIntense. Obviously something that Apple was going to ship for the HomePod with the screen, right? This is exactly what you would imagine from like, you do get some interaction, but it's miniaturized.

but it still shows you the actual UI from the app that you are invoking, right? And so it's this middle ground. I think it's interesting because these snippets are this middle ground between... shortcuts and widgets in a way that like these snippets for example are more interactive than widgets. Because widgets on the home screen, for example, and I mean, you know, Steven, they cannot bring up the keyboard, for example.

to let you type something. These things can. And so I think it's interesting that we're now at a point where Apple has two things that kind of both of them look like widgets. One of them is officially called the widget. The other looks like it, but it's more powerful. So I don't know. It's fascinating. I hadn't heard of this. I just found a session video designing interactive snippets. So you can essentially make little components of apps that live. Yes.

What, like you bring up in shortcuts or from control center and stuff like that? In theory, I could have a widget that I tapped a button and it would launch one of these and I could do a thing? Yes. Yeah, I think so. Yes. Yes, that is correct. Just let me confirm and see if I open shortcuts. Will I find the same thing? I can trigger it from the action button. I'll give you that.

Yeah, so it's a control, right? It doesn't appear in shortcuts. In shortcuts, you still have the same old regular add reminder action. But this control, you can add it. You can add it to control center, or you can tie it to the action button, and it'll bring up this UI, which is... Because what I'm wanting is, can Todoist do this, essentially, right? Is what I want. I think they can, yeah.

That'd be very nice. Very nice. What I would like to see, because Reminders itself didn't get a ton this year, that's, I think, interesting. It would be great if this... was just like the UI inside reminders, which I don't think it is. My main complaint with reminders is still there's a lot of tapping. It's like, just put this text box in there. Some of it is there, like some of the, there is some natural language and reminders, but it's not open-ended, like maybe this seems to be. Big news.

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Big news. Federico wrote an amazing article. Yes. But it wasn't just an amazing article. It was also an interview with Craig Federighi. I love this so much. I described it as... what is essentially a profile of both an operating system and a person. It's like, it's really good. Federico, you did such a good job, man.

Oh my God, you should be so proud of yourself. Thank you. That was actually my idea, which was kind of risky, but I thought, you know, whatever, I'm going for it. So I'm glad you picked up on that. Yeah. It's so good. People need to read it. This feels like one of those classic Federico things where it's a story, like you're telling us a story.

And so it's long, but it's good. And there's like history, which is important for thinking about. It's essentially the story is about iPad multitasking, but also like, how did we get here? Craig Federici is very open, actually, about how did we get here. I'm very thankful that he did this with you.

I think he does a good job of explaining things. And I think one of the biggest takeaways I have is in a lot of instances, they are tending to do the thing you hope they're doing, right? Which is like... They are thinking about the Mac, but they're trying to do better.

even if they don't succeed and then eventually realize, let's just do the thing that we should be doing in the first place. I just think it's really good. People should go read it. It's awesome. And the imagery is really nice too. It's very meditative. Some of the gifts and stuff that's in there. Yeah, I...

I'm very grateful that I was able to work on this. It was a lot of work last week and it was a lot of coordination, as you can expect, you know, between me and Apple PR and sort of like working on these things is very complicated. in terms of like the bureaucracy of it, if anything. But the aspect I think that I'm most happy about is that this was essentially pitched to me as, hey, do you want to have like a...

I believe they literally said, do you want to have an in-depth philosophical conversation of yours with Craig about the iPad? And iPadOS was like, yeah, obviously. And I had, you know...

Kudos to Apple PR in the sense that I had total creative freedom in terms of what I wanted to ask. I was concerned that, you know, some of the questions like, you know, let's talk about... how people have criticized the ipad over the years i thought oh maybe you know maybe they're gonna skip on that but no it was totally fine and so it was really important for me to be able to to to just choose whatever i wanted to ask And, you know, having plenty of time to really go in depth on certain topics.

Yeah, it was a lot of work. It was a lot of briefings and a lot of things to coordinate, but came together quite nicely, I think. Saying that about the criticism, I think one of the... One of the things that we like about Craig Federighi is that he is like us, right? Where he is both very nerdy, but also...

I think kind of wears his heart on his sleeve a little bit. And I think that's kind of why our audience is always warm to him. Yeah. Because it's just a moment where you ask him about the criticism. And like at first he says like bafflement is how he feels. And people said it like the apple don't.

care about the iPad. And then it says he's disappointed because they really do. But then kind of comes around to being like, but I understand why people care. It's like such a real answer where at first he is defensive. Yes. But then opens up and it's like, yeah, but I get it at the same time. And I just find that so humanizing. That is exactly how it went when we were doing the interview.

And that's sort of what I was hoping that I would get, like to get to see, like, I knew I was going to see the PR persona, but I also kind of wanted to see the man who works at Apple, if possible.

Because at the end of the day, and obviously the way that I phrased my questions, I kept insisting on this idea, like, look, I get it that you describe things a certain way, but I also know that you're... people working at apple and like it's not like these things sort of spring into existence on their own like you're making them in a certain way and why are you making them in a certain way and so i i'm glad that i got to see

A lot of glimpses of that sort of like personal honesty about the answers. And yes, it's very, very nerdy, very sort of detail-oriented. I don't remember. It's probably not in the story. There was a quote about when we were talking about... the beginnings of the iPad, when everything was in full screen, he went on this tangent about like, oh, because like on old Mac OS, and Stephen, correct me, correct Greg, I guess, if he's wrong.

But it went on this tangent about like the only element that was animating at 60 hertz on the original Macintosh was the cursor. And everything else could kind of take an arbitrarily long amount of time to execute. But it was really important that the cursor was moving at 60 hertz and everything else was kind of slow.

And he went on this tangent for like two minutes. And I thought, you know, that's... probably something i'm gonna say before the show rather than mention that's important though right in the context like there's a reason he's bringing that up and like yeah and i think i'd heard this i think

I think I heard Neil Apatow say that he'd been told it in a briefing and you go into detail about it in your story, which is one of the reasons, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm summarizing you now, but one of the reasons that Apple was nervous. about windowing is there's nothing to indicate on the iPad that things are still running. On the Mac, if apps lock up... You can just move the cursor and it indicates to you that the system is still alive. Right.

and that this is something that's been very important to them and it's why they struggled the way that they did and is now how they've ended up with this system where like only the app that is in There's something going on about prioritization, right? About the way that the apps are working. But they had to kind of get over this idea that...

There is nothing in iPadOS that can indicate to you that the system is alive if the app that you're using has frozen. But they've just kind of had to let it go because they've decided to go in this route. Now, of course, if you have... a trackpad attached, you'll get this. But if you're just touching, you wouldn't know. But it seems like they kind of had to just get over this in the end. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one thing that really struck me...

in reading this, and it's something we've talked about, but honestly, it's not something I think about a lot, is that Apple really has two main users of iPads, right? They've got people... like you or Chris Lawley or Jason Snell, who are using their iPad as a daily computer for work, right? It is a modular computer to your great piece years ago.

that they're using with accessories, they're hooking up to a display, they're using it as I use my Macintosh. But you also have people sometimes buying the exact same device. who are very comfortable with the one app at a time model. And they choose an iPad to avoid the complexity of a Mac. or a PC, right? To them, the strength is that they can use it, quote, like a big iPhone. And what's so interesting to me is you see Craig and Apple through this interview.

wrestling with that like how do we push the bar like further and forward while also maintaining and preserving what so many people truly value about their iPad, right? Like my dad uses an iPad because it's not a computer to get rid of the complexities he had. when using a traditional desktop operating system. That's an interesting way of putting it. Because obviously I think about the idea of people using iPads simply, but not really so much of like...

this is the computer that is not getting on my nerves. It's not too much and in my face. It's actually an escape hatch for some people. That is interesting. Yeah, that was one of the key points of the conversation. Like the idea of balance, right? How do you balance? Like you have this computer that I think is the most difficult to design for that you have.

Because on the iPhone, I mean, it's a known quantity, right? So it's a phone. You use one app at a time. Everybody knows how to use a phone. You have a Mac and, you know, people buy a Mac and they know they're going to have Windows, they're going to have a file manager, they're going to have a desktop. And then you have this... iPad, which is sort of somewhere in the middle that is gonna be used by kids and grandparents and parents and teachers, but also people like me.

And other creative professionals are going to do weird things on it. And like, how do you balance that? And the conversation was like, essentially, we, it was Craig saying, we thought we... We wanted to progressively add complexity to the iPad.

without ever sort of removing the default of you can use one app at a time and it's going to be fine they tried with split view and then they updated split view and then they tried with stage manager and the thing that i got out of that conversation about stage managers that they thought that was going to be enough for some people, but the...

Feedback they got clearly said, look, the people who want to have windowing and multitasking really want to have all the control that they can possibly have. And so they realized, it didn't say this, but my understanding is that they've essentially been working on this windowing system for...

for more than a year at this point, I would say a year and a half. That was just my personal interpretation. Nothing that they officially said. But they've been working on this thing for a long time to essentially say, well, look, we're just going to... come up with a brand new windowing engine it's gonna allow essentially like

They didn't say unlimited windows, but more than 10 windows on an M4 is going to work on lower end iPads, including the iPad mini. And we're just going to give people all the controls that they want without removing, of course, the default experience. And so that idea of balancing between the very two different types of users that they have.

which is not an easy task. I don't work at Apple, but I can imagine it's not an easy task to have a product that is used by two completely different audiences. It's interesting how... they have taken this moment as a way to make, like to actually simplify the iPad further, right? Where they've removed split view and slide over. Like they've actually decided, oh, we're going to make it even simpler.

for people unless they want to do windowing, that would indicate to me that people get lost in iPadOS, right? They accidentally... use SlideOver or accidentally have split view. And so they've taken this as a moment to be like, if you want to do windowing of any kind, use this new system and you'll figure it out. Otherwise, it's just one app at a time.

I find that interesting that they've done that. Obviously, there are going to be a subset of people that will be upset about this, but I actually think that it's an easier system to learn than the old system. I think so. Making a split-screen pair now is so much simpler and easier to explain than it was before. Hit that button at the top.

choose this side or choose that side or you can just drag the icon like you always used to all the way to the edge and it will spring rather than this like really weird where it's like oh you've just entered jiggle mode oh now you've dragged it to the desktop now

like it was a nightmare and it's now much more achievable than it was before and it's just surprised me that they did that but I'm I am actually pleased they've done it yeah you mentioned how much time it took them to do the window management

You write in here that it coordinates CPU, NAND flash, GPU, and battery to optimize all of that stuff. Like, this was not as simple as... going to the repo in mac os and be like let me copy this code and paste it over here and when you use it yes there are similarities like one thing i'm so glad they brought over was the tiling system that was introduced in mac os last year or two years ago and yes if you're re-implementing this on the ipad

you should definitely have that. And actually you can use those with the same shortcuts and kind of build your own split screen view, which is really cool. But I mean, you, you obviously have used the Mac, you've used this beta. Like, do you think people who understand one will kind of grok the other one?

pretty quickly? Oh, I think so. I mean, it's very, very similar. One of the things that, and especially like, it's not just similar from the perspective of, oh, there's the traffic light indicators, there's a menu bar. and keyboard shortcuts are the same. But now, especially with the redesign, a lot of the apps are actually very similar between macOS and iPadOS.

I saw a friend of the show, Steve Tratton-Smith, post an interesting challenge on Mastodon today that it would be interesting to put up side by side macOS and iPadOS on an external display. and capture the differences between some of the apps, especially now that the window style is essentially the same between the iPad and the Mac. So I definitely do think that now more than ever, if you're...

If you're moving across a Mac and an iPad, I think it's going to be easier than before from the perspective of multitasking. Like you got the tiling, you got the split view, or you got the... fluid resizing you got stage manager that now works the same way right so the the windowing is unlimited the positioning is unlimited just stage manager acts as a as a you know to put you to let you focus on specific workspaces

exactly like on the mac keyboard shortcuts are the same uh the menu bar is right there at the top Just some minor visual differences in how, for example, the traffic light buttons are displayed on macOS. They're always shown on the iPad. You kind of need to go on hover. to make them interactive, which is something that I personally would like to see as a setting. Like, let me always see the fully expanded traffic light buttons. But overall, yeah, I think it's...

Very, very similar at this point. Which is great for even a user like me, where I feel so much more natural using... this version of windowing on the iPad because I don't feel like I'm having to, like, get used to a second thing. I just very easily transition from my Mac to my iPad back again now. Like, and I'm...

Man, I'm loving it. I love this. They just crushed it. Like, it's perfect. I haven't found something that I dislike about it. The one thing I disliked, you fixed it for me, just use Stage Manager. It's like, oh, it's exactly what I want. It's like, it's so funny that I have used Stage Manager on the Mac since it came out, but I never used it on the iPad because I hated it.

And it should have been the same system, now is the same system. It's incredibly good. It's unbelievable how good a job they have done with iPadOS 26.

We always have these things at WWDC. We mention it every year, right? Where it's like you see a thing and you're like, wow, that looks amazing. And then you use it in like, oh, it's constrained in all these ways. Like Federico, you just had one, right? That like one of the shortcut actions for sending a prompt.

something like chat gpt it's like an old version yeah right it's not the current version so you always have these things but like i haven't found that with the windowing system it's like it's as good as i wanted to me in fact it's better it's good it's yeah yeah yeah and i and i Like in the story of I wanted to focus on iPad multitasking, I didn't even get to touch the stuff like the local audio capture, the background tasks, the improvements to files. Like there's actually a lot.

that they're doing here. And just this realization, I think it's very welcome to hear an executive say, we realized that our power users want to have as much control as they can have it and we're going to give it to them and we're not going to get in the way. Like that is refreshing to hear, you know, after all these years of these sort of half steps.

with iPadOS, it's just, it's, it's nice to, it's just nice. I haven't seen any complaints about iPadOS really. And it's been over, you know, more 10 days after the keynote almost. Yeah. And it's just, everybody's just like, yeah, they did it. Good job. Which is strange, I gotta say, as a reaction. I'm not used to it. Especially for iPadOS. Especially for iPadOS. I'm not used to it. I have a semi-related question.

Okay. I mean, I'm sure the preparation that went into this was intense, right? You're trying to figure out what you're going to ask. You have limited time. How do you prioritize them? I'm sure you were already thinking about the article, and I'll echo what Mike said. Using the history of iPadOS changes as the backbone for the interview is just next level good. Did you, in all of that, happen to ask him about the Finder icon? Aha. Why? Yes, sir. In fact, I did. Let me pull up my transcript.

which I'm not supposed to share a full-on track, but this is just a small quote. What are you? I did mention you as a friend. So we were talking about the differences between... Mac users and iPad users, right? And at some point I said, you mentioned Mac users who are obviously very passionate. And I said, I have a friend of mine. I have to mention this because otherwise you will be upset with me.

He's very annoyed by the finder icon and having the colors flipped. And Federici said, uh-huh, I've been told about that. Yeah. So, there you go. Joe! Joe, he did it! Wow, that's wild. It got to him. Somebody felt it was important that they had to share that piece of information. Oh, you should know about this. Within a day or two of my writing. Yeah, because this was on Wednesday morning, this interview. Oh, that's so good.

Oh man, I love you. It got to the top. Now, I'm not sure the conversation moved on after that.

I can share some other tidbits from the interview for the show. It's fine. For example, when we moved on the topic of criticism, right? I sort of started, like, I tried to contextualize a lot of my questions because I really wanted to have... good answers instead of the yes and no PR answer. And so I started talking about the journey of iPadOS, the ups and downs over the years. And I said...

Of course, you've received criticisms over the years, right? And he looks at me and says, from at least one person in this room. Do you see the blogger in the room with you? Turn to a specific PR person and point at them and be like, you. He's like, Jimmy, you're the problem. And everybody in the room kind of started laughing. And I said, I believe something along the lines of, for me, it always comes.

from a place of passion. And he chuckled and said, I tell myself that. That's fantastic. I mean, I know if he said, if I'm in your shoes, I would feel pretty embarrassed. Me? Embarrassed? I said, if it's me in your shoes, I know my face would go red in that moment.

oh no no no i i went along with it like i started laughing i was like yeah i criticized you i'll make a joke about it but i would feel a bit awkward i think yeah no no it was it was it was lovely it was actually it was actually really nice i mean they are fully here's the thing that i got like big

picture outside of this interview from you know based on other folks at apple that i talked to like they are and i keep repeating this over and over and i think i was talking about this last week with someone um They read our stuff and listen to our stuff more than we usually think they do, is my impression. And my sense is that they really do have some of those...

fights about like very specific things. Like, should you be able to, I don't know, have a better context menu in the files app or like very specific stuff. I do think that they... they read everything, they listen to everything, which is kind of concerning, and obviously we try not to think about that stuff, because our audience is not Apple, our audience is our listeners and our readers.

And if you think about that too much, like, oh, is there a PR person listening to this? Then you start having an unnatural conversation. You start second guessing yourself. Yeah, exactly. So you shouldn't do that. I love Visual Bro. But they do. Yes, yes. Favorite computer. I use it every day. Sorry. I love the device. Yes. Can't wait to do it. But I think there's a way to criticize Apple, that is to go on your blog or to go on your podcast and just run down the list of really popular arguments.

Craig Federici should be fired. Tim Cook should be fired. Everything sucks. This sucks. It used to be better when Steve Jobs was alive. Like, it's very... There's a way to do that, right? And there's a way to say... I like these things about this product. I don't like these things about this product. You're a giant corporation. Here's my feedback. I hope you can make it better. And the first way...

gets you in the door with your audience a lot more quickly. Because everybody loves a creator who's fired up. you know, I don't know, curses on video? Everybody loves drama. Drama is like, you know, it's the perfect bait for a lot of people. And whereas the nuance or just not taking any sort of extra misposition. I don't know, it doesn't pay well a lot of the time. But my sense is that...

The things that we've been saying on Connected, the things that Jason has been writing on Six Colors, the things that Chris Lawley has been saying in his videos, they are taken on board as actually useful.

criticism and that was sort of my question like how do you handle the criticism that maybe takes you somewhere or lets you see things in a different perspective versus how do you handle the criticism that you maybe are are slightly upset about because you don't think it's fair um i don't know that was a good conversation and i'm glad i got to ask that question specifically toward the end

Yeah, I did just want to, before we move on, just to touch on what you were talking about there, because I think it's really interesting as a point of view. Like, it is something that I try to remember, like having in a previous life worked in a very, very large corporation for like 10 years. That there are things that everybody would like to do, but there are reasons outside of your control that you can't do them. It's allocation of people, like global business.

needs rather than the local business needs like and that can be like for apple right like you might want to do something on the ipad but how does it fit in with the overall ecosystem like and if you can't stretch that out you can't do it here like that kind of stuff and that They then still have to position to the world that the thing that they're doing is the best possible thing because you can't say like...

here buy this it's not what we would have shipped ideally but like could you just do it uh and so you have to like there is like a massaging of the message even though there is still a desire to maybe want to make things better and it's the thing that i try and remember

And it is actually one of the reasons why the stuff that came out of the discovery and the epic loss who upset me in the way that it did, because you could see how the conversations inside of the company were pushing them in a bad direction, not just in a good direction, right?

But I do, like you're saying, Federico, it's like, I think it is helpful to try and keep in mind that there are a group of people who are trying to push things forward so you don't get too... animated at times but similarly balance that with like yeah but that isn't my responsibility though yeah right as a as a

however you call yourself, journalist, commentator, pundit. Yeah, no, it's... It's not my responsibility to look out for them, but it's helpful to keep perspective. No, I just think personally that... there's a way to, to, to have a conversation about computers and there's a way to have it with a little more class. Yeah. That's just my point of view. I agree. And I mean, I went back before doing this interview, I was.

Obviously, as you can imagine, I was very nervous. At some point, I was very self-conscious about the story that I published last year about iPadOS. But I went back and read it. I was like, you know what? I actually stand by all of this. You know, aside from what they announced, obviously, on the Monday. But, like, this story, like, I'm not offending anybody. I'm just saying that things are in a poor state. And at the time, it was true.

Right. So, and that was a harsh story, but I don't know. Uh, I guess, you know, between, I think I really do think that they, that. The feedback that they get from people serves a purpose at some point, right? And I don't think these things happen in a vacuum. I don't think Frederic wakes up one day and says, guys, we need to do windowing.

Right? I don't think it's like that. I think it's a combination of obviously the hardware that they have, the engineers that they have, but also the feedback they've got from people. And so... Yeah, it's not our job to make sure, oh, let's not offend anybody there because, like, we got to look out for, you know, hug the engineers and, you know, like, we're not, like, I'm not anybody's babysitter at Apple.

But, you know, you can still do things in a certain more classy, more constructive way. And I think it's really cool that you're now like, it is publicly shown that you are part of the feedback loop. And I think that's amazing. I think that's so cool. And I'm very proud of you. Thank you. Thank you. But, yeah. That's not... I'm just glad I got to do this, you know, because I interviewed Federighi twice, but he was always for the podcast.

And just this was a different muscle to flex for me, like to work on this kind of story. I don't usually do this kind of story. Yeah. I'm happy that this wasn't a podcast, actually. Yeah, me too. Me too. At first I was like, oh, I want to hear it. And of course I want to hear it, but it wouldn't have allowed you to do what you did in the way that you did it. And so like, I'm actually happy that you got to do something a little bit different. And the questions that you ask.

can be different if it's not a podcast, I think, because it's like easier for them to say like, oh, we can't talk about that or whatever, you know? So yeah, very cool. This episode of Connected is brought to you by Terminal.

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Speaking of the power of blogging, we have a new contender. Somebody else realized that blogging is good? Watch out, boys. The enthusiast himself. Yep.

Michael. Here I am. Jay Hurley. What's up? What are you doing? DJ. Okay, so a bunch of things happened kind of all at the same time. I... I came to the realization a little while ago that I don't have a creative project that's just my own. I work with people in all areas of my life, which is my preferred way of working. I prefer to work with people.

It's why I've formed my creative endeavors the way that they have. But at the same time, it's also interesting as like an exercise to not have to convince someone. or not have to work with someone on their time frame as well as your own. So I was thinking about that and remembering what it was like to do things on my own.

um when i used to do interviews and stuff like that and kind of have that as like a thing that i did when i started doing podcasting and then kind of decided no i much prefer to work with people which is the case But I was also thinking about like, what would it be like to do something on my own again? Like to have something that's fully my own. It's detached from everybody else that I work with, right? Like if I did a solo relay podcast, it's still...

a Relay podcast, right? There's still other people involved in it. And I was like, what would that be? What would that look like? And I don't know what it was that... exactly drew me down the road of I should start a blog. But I ended up in I should start a blog. And I thought about it for a bit.

And was noodling the idea around. And then I started. What I knew I wasn't going to do. Was be like. Hey everyone. I want to start a blog. Here's my first blog post. Because that quickly turns into there was, and there was never another blog post. You come back and say, I'm back. I'm doubling down. Right. We've all seen those posts. Yes. Yes. And so I decided I would start.

writing and I started writing some stuff that didn't find its way to the blog. And then I started the blog and started writing. And I think maybe. after a week. My original plan was to actually launch this after WWDC, but then I YOLO'd it one day and just did it instead. And this is also like... happened at like a good time for me in a couple of ways, where most of the stuff that I have written so far, I am writing when I am holding a sleeping baby.

when I'm essentially trapped underneath a child. And so I am restricted in the things that I can do in that time. And it's actually turned out to be nice, quiet time.

when I can be creative. And the majority of stuff that I've written has just been on my iPhone for that reason. The other thing that I realized, I was talking to Jason Snell about this, and... we were going backwards and forwards about it and like i came to the realization that this is also a consequence of me taking social media off my iphone yes because i am sitting there otherwise bored right like

I've, you know, I've got this time on my hands, which can, in the evening, can be like two hours that I'm just like there. And I don't want to move and can't move because you don't want to wake the sleeping baby. And so I would otherwise just be scrolling, just scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And this is...

Something that I'm doing that is more outwardly creative rather than like just consuming of content. However, I've always wanted to be a blogger. I've wanted to be a blogger for like 15 years. In fact, before I was podcasting, I tried blogging. I actually had a website once called applefanboy.com. Oh. That was before I knew any of you, right?

Um, that has gone away a long time ago. One thing that I remember that I got right on that blog is like a very strange thing that I thought was cool, but I realized it, but nobody else did, which was I once, uh, was able to predict that Apple was going to do an event of some kind based on the fact that the Apple Music, sorry, the iTunes Music Store did not update with the daily releases.

Wow. Of weekly releases. That's like hacker level. That's German. That's German stuff. They used to refresh the music store, I think, on a Tuesday or something. Yes, yes, that is correct. Yes. And a Tuesday rolled around and nothing happened. And I was like, the last time this happened was because they were announcing an iPod or something. And then they did. I don't remember what it was, but then the next day, the Wednesday.

they actually had an announcement. So they put it on the iTunes music store. So they couldn't update because of web objects, I guess. They couldn't update the store. Like their stuff is still in search, but they couldn't update the store main page. And I wrote up, I was like, something's going to happen. And I remember that I sent it to people.

Federico, I may have sent it to you. Who could tell? I emailed it to people, like tip lines and stuff. Like, look what I found out. Like, no one cared because ultimately it wasn't that interesting anyway. I feel like that would get more play today. I feel like that's a thing that people do today more than they would... doing then um because it wasn't the media wasn't so fast like the rumor sites weren't so quick that they that there was there was a genuine value in in being able to be like

Something is going to happen tomorrow. Like it wasn't, you know. Anyway, so I always wanted to blog, but I find editing written work. to be one of the most boring things a human being can do. Like, rereading over and over and over again to find errors, I find so tedious. And even rereading for content is fine.

But for finding errors is terrible, plus I'm not very good at finding them. My grammar's bad, my punctuation's bad, most of the time my spelling is bad. This is just a thing I know about myself. It's who I am, but it means what I don't want to do is just like...

publish my raw text for the world. Sure. You know what's coming next. This is what AI is good at. AI, baby! The LLMs are really good at dealing with text. And it's very doable with a lot of models to be able to get them to proofread stuff for you, including the inbuilt Apple intelligence models without actually changing your text. And it's just making suggestions. I'm very happy with this as a system because it takes away a nervousness from me of being, of looking silly online.

Which, if I published the text as it was, I don't think I would look very smart a lot of the time. Stephen, you see my... raw writing a lot more than anyone i think yeah there are a lot of errors right like it's a thing it's how i am it's how i write it could be timed up look we're you know exactly So the AI does it. Either the AI does it or Steven does it. And I'm not going to send him all my drafts. Thank you. I can't do that. And so I'm getting the AI to do it. And yeah, I...

I'm very pleased with it. I'm enjoying it. The amount of good, positive feedback that I've gotten from people... has been very heartwarming people seem excited about it and they're like they're happy that i'm doing it and and that makes me happy too because it's like you know you publish things for people yeah um And people seem to like it. I don't have any analytics on the website, and that's purposeful. I don't want to know how many people are reading. That's not helpful to me right now.

I don't think that that would be good or bad, so I've decided just not to do it. I know that I wanted to be able to have these as like a website and also email.

So I'm using Ghost, which was also an opportunity for me to try out these tools that people use now. I was just intrigued, like, what is that like? I'll tell you, it's not a very user-friendly experience. Oh, boy. Interesting. I have so many problems with the... Ghost operates in such a way that I do not find to be very good.

the way that it wants you to add images to every post, but also has terrible tools for dealing with images. It's not a very good system. There's a bunch of things that I would tweak about it. My understanding from talking to people that also use it is like... You can fix a lot of this by having a custom theme. And it's like, so maybe in my future one day I would do that. Similarly, I don't have any branding. Like there's no logo or anything yet. This is just.

I'm not getting ahead of myself on this. It's like I just want to start writing and then over time we'll find a place of it. But I should say the only stats that I know is how many people sign up for email. Ghost has that. And that's what they tell you. But they don't have any inbuilt analytics, at least not that I found. And I'm happier with that right now. So yeah. And yeah, so that's where I am. I'm writing.

I'm a blogger now. I love that you're doing it. I really enjoy it. I figured you would because you're a blogger. It's a long time coming. Yeah. You know. Maybe. So the name, oh, I should, the name, The Enthusiast, right? So like, it's because it's what I see myself as. Like, I am... In all of the shows that I do, I do not consider myself as the most knowledgeable person in those shows. That is not a...

way of putting myself down, I think it is just factual, right? Look at the pen addict. I don't know as much about pens as Brad. I look at... I don't know as much about it. I've not been around. The amount of experience Jason Snell has, and it's similarly for both of you two, right? But... I think I'm good at what I do because I care deeply about the things that I like. And so I consider myself to be very enthusiastic about them. It is also a dig at the way that people...

talk about people like me. Right. And I actually own enthusiast.website. Yes.

and enthusiast.blog. I bought those domains and I will probably use those because I actually think they're better URLs than the... I don't like the double E in the enthusiast. Yeah, it's like the enthusiast. Yeah, I don't like it. So at some point I will probably... change the main url but like i don't even know if that would be a disaster now probably would be and i shouldn't do that but like who knows hey it's no fork bomber you know you're you're above that that's true uh

Because I've found in the past that people who didn't take the traditional route to be in New York-based publishing look down on people like us and have done so. In many written forms. I have an Apple note, which is like a blog post I'd like to write. And this is one of them that at some point I will write of like...

chronicling the way... Maybe. I might write it. I'm not sure. But I have some screenshots of people using the word enthusiast in a derogatory way. But I do... I think that it's a phrase that should... that people should be proud of i think you should be proud to be an enthusiast and that you care and that you that you're not a journalist but you care so much and you have things to say

that people want to listen to them and that you're able to build a what is now 15 year career on the fact that you just really like the computers like and that's all it is

And I think that's something to be proud of. I know why, Federico, I know why you found it as a put-down. I know why Chase found it as a put-down when it happened to 9-5. I get why... people would feel that way i mean for you in your one specifically they were also just not even naming the website which was worse yeah what did they called you like an enthusiast website right instead of

even referencing Mac stories. Was that like the Wall Street Journal or something? No, it was All Things D. All Things D, that's it. Yeah, which I don't, was that part of the Wall Street Journal at one point? It was part of the Wall Street Journal at one point, yes. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, I think that it's something to be proud of. And so that's why I'm building my new little home on the internet around it. You could...

really expand this brand. Please. You could have a parenting blog at enthusiast.dad. That's $18. Okay. Oh, so this is like a media empire. If you want to help other people become enthusiasts, enthusiast.guru. is this 45 yeah i mean i hope that the website does make people so as well i i'm also my plan for this is block is to be good vibes like that's the plan for this um

I have enough outlets to talk about everything. I don't need to talk about everything there. Sure. Right. So like, for example, I don't think I would have posted anything about the Epic lawsuit on my website if it was running them. Because it's just not what I want to put there. I will talk about that on this show. I'll talk about it on Upgrade. I don't need a third place to talk about the same stuff, right?

I wouldn't be able to come up with something unique that I wouldn't have used in one of these two spots. So my plan is, and it's not just going to be talking about Apple, I want to talk about all of the things that I like. It's WWDC season right now, so it's been very easy to just focus on that. It's also been super helpful for me that this is a good WWDC. Like, great. So it's helping me kind of find my rhythm, but yeah.

I'm excited about it. I'm happy to have it as a thing that I'm doing. And I want to thank you both for the public and private. uh encouragement that you give me yeah of course no i think it's great for for lots of reasons we spoke about this a couple years ago now maybe where you know, after Twitter broke up and it's like, all this stuff is scattered. And I said this on backstage when we were talking about this, like, I still believe short form text based social media is probably a bad idea.

But what that period of time did for me was it changed the way that I think about. 512 pixels like yes i still you know cover apple news and like you know weird service program for m2 mac mini power supplies right like i'm still gonna do that stuff But also things like the, going back to the finder icon again, there is a period of time. And in fact, I did it live during WC. I put a mask on. I'm like, Oh no, what do they do to this poor finder icon?

But there was a time where like I would have, that thing would have been a tweet, right? It'd be like, here's three finder icons over the years and this one is bad and they should fix it. And it would have gotten some traction, right? Like this did on social media after I posted the blog post. But it would have done nothing in terms of views compared to what the blog post has done. And more importantly to me, it's...

part of something that I own and control. And Twitter going away, I think for a lot of people, not just us, taught us there's value in owning where you put your stuff. Now you have that, right? And even if ghosts were to go away, you can export it, right? Or you end up like me and Federico with almost two decades of stuff in WordPress.

What I knew is I didn't want to use WordPress. My starting point was not that. I mean, realistically, what I wanted was Substack, but I don't want to use Substack. It was, I wanted something, what is like that? And that was when I found Ghost. Yeah, no, you made a good choice there, I think, having not used it. And so I'm glad that you started this out of at least partially that mindset.

Like I have a single place I can put things and they can be short or long or serious or funny or whatever it is. And then you can share those from there. And I still a couple of years into that sort of. rethinking about my own site still really value that idea. And I think you're going to find that to be important. Yeah, I'm sharing more. I'm sharing things that I would have wanted to share on social media and didn't.

Like just decided not to because writing a blog post and sharing the link is better for me than sharing the social media post and getting the replies. Yeah. Like I just find that to be a better loop. Sure. And the feedback that I have had about the things that I have written has been more considered because people are actually like deciding to go read it rather than just like react.

to it yeah it's hard it's much harder to dunk on a blog post yeah yeah although I'm sure at some point I'll get the things where people react to what they think the blog post is about Yes. Having not read it, I know that this is a thing that we all talk about privately sometimes, but I'm happy. Thank you for giving me the space to talk about it on the show today.

And I want to keep it up. And I have lots of ways that I think I could. At some point, I want to look into dictation because I think at a certain point, it might be faster for me to dictate. I just want to see what that's like, too. There are things that I can try out now. I'm using Ulysses, by the way, to write everything. I was getting ready to ask. It's really nice, and it works.

It works well with Ghost. The reason I started using it is because you can publish directly to Ghost from Ulysses. But it turns out if you do that, because Ghost is weird, things can get a bit odd. So what I actually end up... what the real reason is, so Ghost, you have email and this is a good example of like things that are weird about Ghost, right? When you publish on the Ghost website, like on their kind of web app,

You kind of press publish and it's like, hey, we're going to send this to, we're going to put this on the website. We're going to send this to email subscribers. Like, do you want to confirm? So that, you know, they give you the opportunity to like read it back over again if you want to. And you press confirm and it sends to.

sends to the email, publishes on the website. If you publish via an app, even though it uses the API, the publishing system that goes to provide it to third parties, it will not send the email. And so what you have to do is you publish your website, you then log into Ghost, you duplicate the post and send it as email only. What? No, I'm not going to do that.

I think because Ulysses know this is a problem, they actually have a good system where you publish it as a draft, and when you press publish, it then opens the ghost interface to your post. Oh, yeah, that's good. Okay. And then you press publish. And so what I actually do there is you can attach an image in the Ulysses.

uh i think because it has like feature images like again like ghost templates are kind of built that every article should have an image which i don't love because i don't always want to do that but like it's you know it's making me be creative in another way i'm like i gotta find an image for this i keep taking screenshots? I started doing that too and I don't show the featured photo in my WordPress theme but it's so that on Mastodon Threads in Blue Sky

there's like a nice image that's not just the site logo. That's probably why they do it, right? For social? Yeah, that makes sense. Because they really want you to connect to your social accounts too, which I also don't want to do because it doesn't support all of the services I use. So I just do it using Croissant. I post, then I share it using Quasant to all of the services that I want to share it to.

Yeah, so then now I add the image when I'm on the website because it is better for that. Even though their tools are limited, you can sometimes at least crop something or whatever. If I make just another complaint here, just to kind of give you an example of the things that I find that are weird about it. There aren't any tools to wrap text around imagery. You can add images to a blog post.

to the body of the post. But they just go full width. No matter what size they are. So if you want to add something square... It's massive. It's huge. It's just massive. Like there's no text wrapping. It's like, again, but I know you can do this if you build your own ghost template. I have also thought about vibe coding one, but I'm terrified. I might just do it for fun one day and just see what happens. But realistically, I'm going to...

Because I found a template that I liked and then I put it on the website. And then again, it's like, ah, this is still not what I want. And so like, I just went and wanted the standard ones, changed the colors to something that was pleasing to me. and published it. Can I understand something that is not totally clear to me? Yeah. Are you blogging with one hand? Sometimes, yeah. It depends. Sometimes I can put...

Like my iPad with the keyboard on my lap. Oh, so this is happening on the iPad. It's iPad and iPhone. I have published the majority of things to my blog from 100% on my iPhone. written on my iPhone, published on my iPhone, by and large, swipe typing. That's why I need the AI, man. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm over here with like 400 Dev and Think windows open. And Mars edit. And a Mac. I'm publishing what the kids do, you know? It's all on the iPhone.

It's like I'm that version of like the people making videos using CapCut or whatever, right? Like just everything is all on the iPhone. Like that's me blogging. Well, welcome to the future of media.

Yeah, man. Welcome to text. And welcome to the end of the show. Oh, wow. Did you have anything else? No, no, no. I just like the welcome to the end of the show. Welcome to the end of the show. If you want to find links to the stuff we spoke about, they're in your podcast player. They're also on the web at relay.fm slash connected.

slash 557. You can leave us feedback or follow up. There's a link in the show notes or you can go to connectedfeedback.com. Join and get Connected Pro, which is the longer ad-free version of the show that we do each and every week. at 123membership.com. Is that right? Is that what you said? I think so. Yes, that is correct. Thank you to our members who have supported us. A lot of you have been there since the beginning five years ago, so thank you.

We love you all, but we love our members a little bit more. You can find Federico's work at maxstories.net. Y'all go read his interview. What are you doing? It is so good. Read it on an iPad, obviously. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to get home. You're going to see your family for a second. You can get something to eat. You're going to run the bath. You're going to get your iPad and you're going to read this in the bath with your iPad.

Okay. Okay. Light a few candles. Light a few candles. Get a bath bomb going. Yeah. Relay FM LLC does not take any responsibility for iPads dropped in a bath. Yeah, no, obviously. Yeah, and obviously that's John's fault. Yeah. Kate says, what if I don't have an iPad? Go buy an iPad. Or steal an iPad. Buy or steal an iPad. That's step one if you don't have an iPad. We also don't take responsibility for the stealing of electronics. Yeah.

Yeah, we're just saying things, essentially. Yeah. Mike hosts many other shows here on Relay. Check out his work at Cortex Brand and go subscribe to his blog, theenthusiast.net. Yes. I got to add that to my template here at the end of the show. Got a lot of things now. You really do. You can find my writing at 512pixels.net and I co-host Mac Power Users here on Relay.

Each and every Sunday. I'd like to thank our sponsors this week, Squarespace and Terminal. Thank you for listening. Until next week, guys, say goodbye. Arrivederci. Cheerio. Bye, y'all.