You are listening to the con Frondly Christianity podcast, and today I'm welcoming back one of the guests from our first ever season of our podcast, So those who've been listening from the very beginning, we'll remember Lisa Fields. Lisa is a Christian apologist who merges her deep biblical knowledge
with her heartfelt mission to share God's love. She's been recognized by Christianity Today for her impactful work in the African American community, and she's produced two documentaries, Unspoken and Juneteenth Faith and Freedom. Lisa is the CEO of Jude three Project and the author of the new book When Faith Disappoints the gap between what we believe and what we experience. Lisa, thank you so much for joining me again.
Thank you for having me. Rebecca, it's joy for those.
Who aren't yet familiar with your ministry. I'd love first for you to give us a little bit of a taste of what Jude three Project is about, and yeah, what that project's been working on and how people could find out more.
Yeah, yeah, Well. Jud three is a Christian apologetics organization dedicated to helping Black Christians know what they believe and why they believe it, and we do that through a number of ways. Of the documentaries you just highlighted June teenth and Unspoken, we have curriculum, online courses, a number of other things like podcasts. We have multimedia series such as Why I Don't Go when I sit down with
young adults who left the faith. And we have our national conference Courageous Conversations that has happens annually that merges black scholars, professors, pastors, thought leaders together from conservative and progressive spaces for conversations around conversations that are relevant for the culture, such as the exclusivity of Jesus, the trustworthinians of the Bible, sexuality. It runs the gamut of conversations that we've held.
And what was it that first motivated you to want to found the organization and get involved with that particular sort of segment of the mission of the church.
Yeah, it was my undergrad experience taking a class New Testament. Our textbook was bar Ermit in terms of New Testament, and that was the first time I had really questioned my faith, questioned the scriptures in particular, And that was when my father, who is a pastor, introduced me to apologetics and getting apologetic apologist perspective on what I was navigating in class. The reliability of the Bible and things
of that nature really helped me navigate that class. But as I got more immersion in apologetics, I didn't see any African Americans leading and I wanted to do something about that. And so that was kind of the genesis of me thinking about what it looks like for me to help black churches and Black Christians and black skeptics wrestle through hard questions about the Bible and about God. And that kind of led me on the journey and eventually I would started you through project. Yeah.
Yeah, that's fascinating. Yeah. My understanding is that in the US, Black Americans are disproportionately likely to have some form of Christian background, and actually when I was more likely to actually still be very much involved in Christian churches and to hold sort of core biblical beliefs, what is it would you say, as you've sort of been involved in that particular kind of ministry in the last several years, thinking about maybe some of the questions that folks might
have if they've been raised in the context of the Black Church in America versus you know, folks who might have been raised in other kinds of churches, Like, what are the biggest sort of questions I guess or concerns that folks have who have that particular background.
The biggest question is is Christian and white men's religion? That's the question that we have to answer more often than not in our context. Should I trust this faith of faith that was given to a lot of our ancestors through their slave masters and so, and the faith the slave masters gave their slaves was very a very contaminated version, a very incorrect version in a lot of ways, and so kind of reframing that for people who were like, Hey,
I'm thinking about this, Should I trust this Bible? Should I trust this book? Because it was used as a tool of oppression? That's the questions we have to help people. That's the main question that we have to help people walk through when we're dealing with apologetics in my contexts.
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, for those not familiar with this
particular sort of area of history. One of the really sort of startling things that I discovered as a sort of looking into the history that you're referencing there is the way in which the Bible was like specifically edited, like the whole sections of the Bible were cut out, and the areas of the Bible like put off limits for black people living in America to have access to you because it was like, oh, if we actually let people who are currently enslaved see what they're you know what,
the whole of the Bible says, we're going to be in all sorts of trouble. Like it's sort of kind of telling I guess that the Bible had to be so carefully edited and that often people were even like preventing folks from learning to read because it was far too dangerous to put an actual like copy of God's word into the hands of people you're trying to oppress and for them not to realize, oh Jesus is on
my side and not on your side. So very very quickly there, So tell us these your recent book, which I think just came out this summer, is that right? Tell us what motivated you to want to write that book and what are the particular kinds of questions and concerns that you're wanting to address.
There, Yeah, the book When Faith Disappoints. And it's funny because everyone was like, oh, I didn't expect this to be your first book. We thought you would do something that was more classical or traditional posts. But as I'm just having conversations with people who left the faith, people who were skeptical by the faith, I noticed a pattern that a lot of it had to do with pain
at the core. Now, there were intellectual questions at the start, but once you listen to them long enough, it always led to pain for the most part, more often than not. And so I was like, what does it mean for me to write to the root of the issue and not to just the fruit of the issue. If we're starting this conversation about evolution and faith, but we ended on you prayed for your mom to be healed and she died of cancer. Like, what is the starting point here?
And as I started to have more and more conversations with people that were wrestling with God, pain was just the overarching thing. And so people felt disappointed, and not just being disappointed with people. It's one thing churchard is one thing, but being disappointed with God, to me is
a whole nother thing. Because even sometimes the onset of our complaints with people, really, if we dig back, it's like, God, why did you even let this scenario happen in the first place, Like, I'm mad at this person, But God, you are all powerful on knowing and all loving, Like why did you even let this even take place with this person? So the issue is not solely with the person, It's with God. And so it was like, how can I write and minister to the hearts of people that
are wrestling with doubt? And I will deal with some traditional apologetic questions throughout us. There's sprinkled in throughout, but at the core, let's get to the heart of the issue. Because if we get to the root of the issue and I minister and share the Gospel to that issue, I think we'll have more attraction in people giving God
another ear or rethinking the faith. And so that was really the reason I wrote this, because I felt like I want to minister to the heart of broken people been disappointment and I want to share my own disappointments because the disappointments that you experience are some of the disappointments that everybody experiences in this life. It may look different and may take different framings, but we all wrestle with disappointment. And so the way to get through that
disappointment is to wrestle with God. And when they've disappointed, I believe gives people the opportunity to wrestle with God and to normalize it.
Yeah, that's fascinating what you use the expression there of applying the Gospel to the sort of heart of their their concern. So tell us a little bit more about that for those who maybe aren't familiar with even what the gospel is or how it might apply to somebody's situation.
If they feel like, do you know what I prayed for something and I didn't get the answer that I was hoping for, or like, or I invested so much in this church community and then I felt profoundly disappointed by the treatment that I received, or you know, the various different forms that that can take. What would it look like for you to apply the gospel to those.
Yeah, one thing that I love about the Gospel is the incarnational nature of it and what I mean by that. Jesus came, took on flesh and dwelt among us, and we don't often think about what it took for Jesus to humble himself on that level and to take on flesh live amongst us for thirty years and we don't have much of what he said. It wasn't his time to highlight who he was, and he listened to our concerns.
He interacted, He understood what it was like to be us, and in his understanding, now he's able to intercede for us on a deep level. He is our high priest because he can identify with the struggles that we have and do navigate on a daily basis in a unique way that he wasn't able to identify with before he came to earth. And I think as that is what this book is is very incarnational. It's like sitting with people in their hurts telling them that I hurt too.
Jesus says, like through the Gospels we see that he hurts too. He experiences anxieties, frustrations, has difficult conversations. And so in this book that I show like the way that you suffer, I suffer, and the way that you suffer, Jesus suffer that he doesn't. He doesn't leave the comforts of heaven to live this perfect life. He has a life. He is perfectness. So don't get me wrong. He's without saying, but his life is full of challenges. It's not just
the easy road. So he is sinless, but his life still has challenges. And because if God doesn't escape challenges, then us as humans will not like many other inflictions of the righteous, the Lord will deliver us out of them all. We don't escape suffering, but we do have a suffering Savior that brings us comfort in our own suffering. And I think that's what this book offers, that the Gospel was a message that is not like where you
are escaping every hardship in this world. The gospel of Jesus came and died experience deep suffering because he wanted us to be reconciled back to the Father. And so I think that is some of the ways kind of our frame it in the book to let people know that their suffering isn't normal, that it is a suffering is a part of the walk of a believer. And the gospel message is that our Savior suffered, and so because he suffered, we will suffer as well.
You know, people sometimes have the idea that when we're talking about God, we're talking about a sort of remote deity. Somehow he was like distant from the day to day of your all my life, or especially from the really dark valleys that we might walk through. In actual fact, that one of the sort of crazy things about the Christian message is that actually the God who made all the universe not only came to live among us, but
also died the most horrific death. Like that the suffering of Jesus is at the center, as you were pointing out, it's like at the center of the Christian message. And so there is no no sense in which he doesn't understand and he can't and won't enter in with us into our suffering because actually that's like precisely what he did. He carried all our our sicknesses and are sort of sorrows upon himself, is one of the ways that the
Bible puts it. And so I think that's like a really actually unique and beautiful element of the Christian story that people I think people sometimes think, well, you know, I used to believe in the God of Christianity, but then like suffering came into my life, and now I just can't believe anymore. And I can sort of understand where that comes from, and that suffering can like really
deeply shake us. But at the same time, actually it's like uh, running away from the one thing that gives us hope in the middle of suffering, like the one place where our suffering might actually ultimately matter to the heart of God is the kind of Christian Christian message there walk us through a little bit, Lisa. I know in your book you sort of break down different areas of her that people might have experienced, and you sort
of group them together under some interesting framework. So I'd love for you to give us just a sample of that for those who might be interested to grab the book and dig in more.
So, I break it down our pain into seven categories. Personhood, that's identity. Peace everybody's trying to find, especially in our culture today, Peace, the pain, point of provision, like God, will my needs be met? Pleasure? How can I experience joy? Many people get into addictions because they're trying to find some kind of pleasure in a life that is deeply painful. Purpose, Why I am I hear? Protection? Like who will protect me?
In a life of challenge? Many people have experienced abuse and they're like, why would a loving, all powerful God allow this to happen? And then power. Sometimes people pursue power because they felt so powerless, and they're like, I don't want this pain to happen again, So let me be in charge. Because if I'm in charge and I can take control, then I can avoid painful experiences. Now we know that's not the reality, but sometimes when we're traumatized, we look for things to cope and try to free
ourselves from the hurt and the pain we're in. And so those are the ways I frame it and break down those pain points. And I love that they all start with pee because I like but yeah, yeah, that is some of the ways that I think has been helpful to frame it for people. And it's a theme that I've seen just in doing this work for many years.
Yeah, and I know one of the ways in which people have sometimes responded to the kinds of challenges that you're you're highlighting there is by preaching essentially a kind of prosperity gospel, like a aversion of Christianity, which says like if you if you only have faith, if you you know, put your trust in God, and maybe if you like often also like if you if you start giving enough money to your church or whatever, you know, whatever it is, like, there are certain things you can
you can do that will then basically guarantee like you will have health and prosperity and like bad stuff won't happen to you anymore. So help us understand, like why why do you think that that message can be attractive to people? And how is it sort of very different from a biblical understanding of what the message with Jesus is.
Yeah, I think it's attractive because it's like it's an easy fix that we're all looking for easy fixes, and it's a way to take control. Like people don't think of the prosperity gospel as a way to hake control, but I think it is in a sense of like if I do this, this will happen. You kind of get control. If I give enough, then I will have this outcome. So it's a way to control my life
by doing good things. The problem is the person who lived a sinless life suffered, and so he did everything right. There was nothing wrong, no sin in him, and so it is really biblically dishonest to look at the text and say God will bless you whenever you pray, or God will answer every prayer. Jesus in the garden said, if it's possible, can you remove this cup from me?
Like he didn't want to suffer, but he understood, not my will, but God will be done, that this was the road that God had chosen for the salvation of humanity. And so if he didn't escape it, why do we think we will? And God is not even requiring did eye on a cross from most of us. We will never die on a cross, you know. But He is requiring that we navigate difficult conversations, difficult difficult lives on some level, and it's not every season. We have our
peaks and valleys, but we cannot escape difficulty. And I think you know, in the Gospel message, we see like the most the perfect person that lived suffered, and that to me, that cancels out all prosperity teaching.
Right, yeah, yeah, And he told his followers to expect that they would suffer as well, Like it's yeah, I mean, I think people don't have this idea that like, oh, if God really loved me, he could not intend for me to suffer. And yet I think when we open you can pick up pretty much any book in the Bible and find that that is not true. That actually often the people who are serving God most faithfully are
the ones who are suffering the most. That we can't like draw this kind of correlation between the suffering that we experience and God's favor, which also, like on the flip side of that means that the fact that someone's suffering doesn't necessarily mean that they have like broadered on
themselves by a particular sin. I mean, I feel like that's another way people can get caught up and misled is just to feel like, oh, because you know this thing is happening in my life, or because I'm having this like particular health problem or whatever it is, like that must be a sort of form of God's judgment on me. When you know, Jesus is very clear when he's asked that question directly about a man who is born blind, like did this guy sin or his parents?
And Jesus is like, no, that's neither of those things, So that the glory of God will be revealed. I feel like we can kind of fall into that trap as well, in the midst of suffering, and that's not the The answer that we're given in Christianity is actually Jesus's death on a cross at the at the center of everything. What would you say, Lisa, I know, when
when I sit down to write a book. They're often like pieces of it that I already kind of know exactly what I want to say, and other pieces is where I sort of learned as I go along, or like it's like I discover kind of what needs to be said in the process of writing it. And I'm curious, as you said, down to write this book, I know it comes out of like years of experience and conversations
and sort of thinking that you've done. But what would you say with the main things that you learned, what was surprised by or kind of discovered in the process of even writing a book like this?
Yeah, so interesting. Left. When I first started writing this book, I was writing it, I thought I was going to write it to people to help them have conversations with people in pain. That's how I went into it. When I sent the proposal in, my friend challenged me. She said, Lisa, you can't write about pain and not write about your own. And so I was surprised at how vulnerable this book turned out to be. Yeah, I'm a very private person
that I'm hiding anything. I'm just naturally a private person and so but I felt like it was necessary for me to come out my comfort zone because it was necessary for a connection for people who have been traumatized and experienced deep hurts, that they didn't need me to talk at them, they needed me to talk with them. And I think I learned how vulnerable I could be in writing that I didn't anticipate when I first started writing this book.
Yeah, I think that's that really resonates with my experience as well. That I feel like, especially if we're writing about the questions that are at the heart of human experience and that really impact people's not just their sort of theoretical ideas about things, but actually their their lived experience.
That I mean, I certainly feel like I need to kind of put myself into my books for better not because I'm like especially interesting or whatever, but just because, Yeah, as you point out, you can more like sit alongside somebody. But it is a weird and vulnerable thing. I mean, I feel like I've found enough out there that you know, people I've never met, know all sorts of stuff about me that I you know, my closest friends and have known like five years ago. It's set of slightly slightly alarming,
but feels, I think, feels ultimately worth it. If if we're able to to meaningfully help or encourage any you know, other brothers and sisters or people who who may have once been part of churches or identified as Christian, and there now thinking, do you know what I feel like, I've just been too hard and I don't I don't have the faith or hope or or motivation to continue.
If you were talking sort of directly now to somebody in that position, Lisa, like maybe someone who grew up in the church or spend a period of time as part of a church, and then, for one reason or another, has come to the conclusion that like, actually their faith is disappointing them so much that they they don't want to be a follower of Jesus anymore. They they want to distance themselves, Like maybe there's some other way of
finding hope and meaning and purpose in this world. Would you what would you want to say to that person Nata listening to us now, Yeah.
I would want to if I was sitting with them, I would spend some time listening to them, but I also would encourage them to wrestle with God. I end each chapter with a prayer, and it's a real meant to be a vulnerable prayer, like to help them frame what wrestling with God looks like. In each pain point and one of the prayers, I can't think of which one is. Like God, I don't I don't even know if you're truth, I mean, if you're read on anymore. I don't know if this is all made up. This
is like a figment of my imagination. But I'm going to give you one more chance to prove yourself to me. And I think going to God and saying laying all your cards on the table, like I've just I'm so broken. I have no idea if I should trust anything I've been taught in church, anything I've read in the Bible. It all just seems made up to me. Your people
don't seem to actually really practice what they preach. And I've been so devastated by hurts and traumas in my life that I see no way that this is true, that you love me, that you're there and laying all your cards on the table to God. I think it's
one of the most transformative things we can do. Several years ago, a little over two years ago, I implement it centering prayer in my life, and it's really thirty minutes of silence that I do every day before God, laying it all out, and the transformative thing that's happened in my heart through that, the hurts and frustration and feeling like God, I don't want to do this anymore, all have been helped in those moments where I'm wrestling with God. And I believe that God meets us in
our honesty in deep, profound ways. And so I would just challenge those who are on the fence and walk away to lay all your cards on the table before God, even if you're like am I talking to an imaginary person? Give God a chance to help you wrestle through all your frustrations with him. And sometimes we have so much bottled up because we can't. We're like, I can't tell God this, He'll strike me down if I vent to him. I tell him that I don't like him, or I'm
mad at him, or I resent him. But he's he's able to handle all of those things. I remember I was in the therapy session two years ago when I was in deep like no, this was actually twenty twenty into twenty twenty, maybe going into twenty twenty one, just frustrated so much. It happened losing my mentor my grandfather, just being overwhelmed by ministry and not having structure a devotional life like I needed to because I was overworking and I just burned out. And I remember in therapy,
my therapy said how do you feel about God? And I said, I resent Him? And the words ran out of my mouth faster than I could catch him. And the more I started to process that with the Lord, the freer I became. And so I think that we sometimes just have so much pent up frustration towards God, not towards we have been a frustration towards the people God, but we don't often realize how much pin up frustration
we have towards God. And this book, I believe, gives people the freedom and to wrestle with Him on the things that He's allowed in our lives that we don't like.
Yeah, it's interesting hearing you talk about that. It's making me think of a number of the psalms where David often is crying out to the Lord. And sometimes it's in ways where you sort of think, oh, like David should have kind of cleaned that up before he before he prayed that prayer, or and certainly before it ever made its way into the Bible. You know, if David's saying, like, Lord, where are you? What are you doing? Why aren't you
helping me? Have you forgotten me? Like I think you have forgot like the crying out that comes from from desperation and her and that we are we're given words in the scriptures to like voice that that actually I'm in a I think one of the things I'd encourage someone to do is like pick up the Book of Psalms and start reading, because you'll see you'll see a whole lot of help of hope and praise to God
and join God's salvation. And you'll see a whole lot of pain and frustration and like doubt and crying out and not knowing and confusion and like all all the things feeling submerged and drowning, and like your enemies are just winning all the time, and how can this be? How can this be happening? If if you're following the Lord, and I think sometimes seeing those words, you know, literally
slap bang in the middle of the Bible. You know, if you open your Bible, if you grab a Bible and seat of open it up right in the middle, you're probably in the Book of Psalms and seeing some of that and to be like, oh, it's not that that relating to the Lord ends there, but that actually it's we can't hide anything from Jesus anyway, So like pretending that we can, and like nursing feelings or thoughts that is if as if he doesn't already see them
as is foolish. But really to to be able to say like, this is where I am, this is how I'm feeling, this is I don't understand, I'm struggling to believe and crying out in the midst of that, I think is yeah, kind of can can help us come unstuck?
I guess And if we're if we felt stuck in faith at least it's been a joy to chat with you and hear some more about your your work since I think it was was it two years ago that we first And if you're someone listening to this and some of what Lisa said as especially resonated with you, grab a copy of her book, When Faith Disappoints the
gap between what we believe and what we experience. You could also check out Jude three project online if if you wanted to get connected with some of the resources that have been developed there. You guys have been listening
to the Confriendly Christianity Podcast. You can follow us on Twitter, slash x, and Instagram that you can leave a review on iTunes if you'd like to mention a topic that you'd love for us to explore in future, or even a guest that you'd love to for me to chat with in future, And especially if you're someone today who is feeling some of the pain that Lisa has been referencing, feeling some of the disappointment, and that I will pray
for you this week. I don't know your name, but Jesus does, and I would love to just spend some time this week praying for you, guys.