You are listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast, and I'm here with my friend Michael Keller. Michael grew up in New York City, attending public school for both elementary and middle school. I love that as somebody who has kids in both elementary and middle and high school public schools in Cambridge, Massachusetts. He then graduated from Vanderbilt University, majoring in history and psychology. He worked at London City Mission,
again in my hometown. I relate and enjoy that, and New Life Fellowship in Queen's before he attended Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary just north of the where I am in Cambridge. I love how I'm making your buyer all about me, Michael, where he received both an MDV and a THHM in apologetics. Michael served as pastor of Community Life at City Life Presbyterian Church in Boston before returning to the city by which I think you mean New York City. I love
how New Yorker's just call it the city city. I know it's like so arrogant. Anyway, that's another conversation to start a new Reformed University fellowship chapter there. Michael also received his PhD from the Free University in Amsterdam in computational linguistics applied to Jonathan Edward's sermon Corpus. Gosh, we could have a whole episode just talking about your bio, Michael,
that we're not going to. I am going to ask you a couple of questions from it, though, because you, like me, have spent significant time in London talking to Londoners about Jesus. But I think for both of us that was several years ago. So i'd love what was your favorite conversation that you had when you were working at London City Mission.
Oh wow, well when I was first of all, Rebeerca. Thanks for having me. This is a pleasure to be on this podcast with you. It is fun how many places our paths, at least culturally have crossed. West Boston, London, maybe one day, the city of New.
York, the city which ought to be Jerusalem quite frankly from a Christian perspective, but never mind, can carry.
On New Heavens and New York. Yeah. When I worked with London City mentioned, it's a very it was a very different populistan than the people I'm working with in New York right now, just from a social economic background, It was mostly Bengali Muslims that had come over from one little town in Bangladesh, Sallette, and they were living in council housing, and a lot of their questions were
very different questions from on the surface. I think a lot of the conversations was it was about what does it mean to be you know, human and part of the state of you know, a lot of them were growing up in London, but what does it mean to be Muslim? What does it mean to be me? What does it mean? So it was a lot of Actually, interestingly, it's a lot of identity questions which I am talking
about today. So maybe you're right, maybe there's a lot of similarities with New York and London anyway, even across the socio economic differences.
Interesting. Well, one of my favorite conversations, only from a comedy perspective, to be honest, in London was several decades ago. I was walking through Hyde Park, the sort of equivalent of Central Park for translating for your New York audiences, and an American guy stopped me and he said, can I ask you a question? I said yes. He said, do you believe in Jesus? I said yes, He said yeah, but do you believe that Jesus is your savior? I said yes. He said, but do you believe that Jesus
died on the cross and rose again? So that I said yeah. He could not wrap his mind around the fact that he had stumbled upon an actual, legitimate Christian in the sort of pagan wilds of London. But you know, there I was. I appreciated his fervor, but it was almost like he was disappointed that I was an actual Christian.
It was fun As an American. I think a lot of people were like, oh, of course you're Christian because of America's Christian At least that was the view that they had, which of me. So I think it was in some ways assumed that I would have these conversations with them. So I think that was that was a benefit I think was a hindrance in another way. Yeah, that's interesting.
Actually, you're right. I think a lot of Brits think that everyone in America is Christian, and it seems a lot of Americans think that nobody in England is. Like I know, when my husband moved to from Oklahoma to Cambridge in the UK to do his graduate work, he very much thought and everyone around and thought like, there is absolutely no way you would meet like a Christian girl in England, Like there's I mean, it's like all possibility of dating on hold until you're back in the
homeland kind of thing. But it turns out there are. There was a band of brothers and sisters in the UK.
And I grew up in New York, and so being a Christian from an orthodox position kind of historic Christianity is a rare thing, kind of like the conversation you had in Hyde Park. So it was always weird than to be assumed you are a Christian because you're from America, even though in New York. I'm like, right, wait, there are Christians in New York. So it was always I think I've always had those kind of funny conversations.
Yeah. So on that note, I know, you know, several decades ago, your dad, Tim Keller, moved to New York and planted a church there and had the audacity to think that modern New Yorkers could actually take serious Christianity seriously.
I don't know why I use the word serious twice, Like a kind of Bible believing gospel centered in some ways quite kind of uncompromising understanding of who Jesus is and what his claims are on us today, that modern New Yorkers could actually take that seriously rather than needing to have some sort of special accommodation to their cultural
cultural values. And you know, famously, to everyone's surprise, that that hope turned out to be true, that there were many people who turned out to be open to hearing the gospel of Jesus, repenting and believing. And I know that you're someone who not only grew up in Manhattan, but has for a number of years now been witnessing to the truth of the Christian message in various forms
and currently kind of pastoring a church in Manhattan. And I'd love to hear your thoughts on today's kind of cultural moment to kind of phrase and what kinds of conversations you're having with skeptical new Yorkers or seeking new Yorkers, all those who wouldn't yet identify it themselves as Christians. But whether there is a openness today or whether that window is sort of closed, I guess in the last couple of decades.
Yeah, it's a great question. And you know, growing up in the city from the eighties and nineties, it's one thing to kind of live it and then not necessarily minister in the sense of your child. You're just sort of swimming in these sort of spaces versus and coming now being a pastor of a church for seven years after, you know, being in other places. My sense is that what was different and unique was back in the eighties
and nineties when Redeemer was started. I think my father did a good job of trying to do a translation, trying to translate the Gospel into concepts and forms that people could understand. Sin is idolatry. You say sin is, you know, breaking God's law. Most New Yorkers than and today it's like, well what does that mean? Because they don't even know. If you say sin is is taking something and making it too important, a good thing into an ultimate thing. New Yorkers were like, oh, I understand
that there's a translation thing. It was very cognitive. But then again, I think New York was very cognitive or more so what I'm finding different this now it's two levels. On one level, I think people are more post christian. I think before people had the British view that all Americans are Christians, I think Christianity was much more cultural even in New York people had an understanding of it
in the eighties and nineties. I think what's different now is where I'm seeing more and more people who are like, what's Christianity? What do you mean by God? There's completely a blank slate. And that's both the opportunity and it's a challenge in its own right because level there's no negative I have all these negative views of you because I've never met a Christian, You're kind of an alien.
On the other side, positively, it's like, well, you don't have to kind of do the backwards sort of apologetics of here are the answers to all the bad versions of Christianity that you've seen. The other thing I've just seen is people are just less intellectually needing the kind of logical arguments for the reason for God or the problem of evil and suffering. Just they still care and people, and it resonates with folks, but it's not the thing
that they lead with as much anymore. Is my sense, what.
Would you say now is the lead question or issue?
That's simple? It used to be is God? Is Christianity really and true? Now it's is Christianity good?
Yeah?
It does? It is it is it does Does it work New Yorkers? I don't know if it's the same thing in Boston. I feel like Boston's very my sense there college influence, there's a lot of heading knowledge here. It's like does it work?
Yeah?
I think my dad one time said the ideas are brought up in Boston, they're put in practice in New York, they're subscribed to law in Washington, and they're made into stories in LA and then kind of like there's just like cycle kind of going around. But yeah, I think people care about it. Does it work?
That's interesting? Yeah. I had a friend who lived for many years in New York City and then moved to Boston, and she said, in New York, when you meet somebody, you ask where do you live, and then you can figure out how much they earn from where they live. And that's like the currency is literal currency, and you know, how much do you earn? Is the way that you are going to be categorized and sort of your status will be evaluated. In Boston, no one really cares how
much money you make. They care like where do you go to school? Like what do you like? What is your academic background? That's much more the currency, and so yeah, even a relatively short distance that we can travel from here to there. Also, I think in your people care about what you're wearing. In ways Boston, you can be completely shabby, which thank god, because I'm utterly shabby, and Boston smiles fairly shabby.
I'm fairly shabby too. It's true. You're not wrong though about the way it comes out of New York is what do you do? Is the one of the first you know, mind, what's your name, Michael? What do you do? And that's another way that they can find out in the social stratosphere.
So then when you say I'm a pastor, how do people respond to that? How awkward? Is that?
One of three ways? Either check, please get me out of the door, where's the closest exit? Two the second reason, the second thing they say is they go straight into oh, I'm I'm spiritual too, and they go into a straight view of their own spirituality. Or three they ask questions are like I don't understand, Like my kids are in school, I go to the school functions, they you know, what are you lawyer, doctor, pastor? Pastor? What? Why you know? So you get those kind of questions.
Yeah, One of the things that I noticed in Boston, which I think is I don't know that it's new new, but it's certainly much more prominent now than it was even sort of five or ten years ago, is that a lot of people who are not Christians or involved in any other sort of traditional religion are reaching for
more sort of pagan spiritual practices, you know. And it's everything from kind of tarot cards to participating in sort of pagan rituals essentially derived from various different sort of tribal gods, etc. That there's a lot of a lot, like I don't know, ten years ago, I'd hear spiritual but not religious, and I'd be like, oh, yeah, so you know, you're kind of maybe into yoga and meditation and you like feel one with the world sort of spiritual but not Oh no, I just recently like drank
a potion and tried to have a vision of a particular kind of goddess. But now now it's actually much more pretty in apps, Yeah, pagan practices. Is that is that going down in New York?
Or is that less not? I mean it might be in New York. There's so many spaces I don't pretend like I know every space of New York, and in my area of New York and Manhattan, I think there's a lot of successful people who have kind of won the lottery of going to a great school and kind of getting a great job. And I think there's probably still more of a skepticism when it comes to that kind of stuff. So I think that I just haven't heard about it because I don't think they do it.
I think so I think more like what it used to be interesting.
I wonder if that's partly a generational divide as well, because this is predominantly sort of gen Z folks that I'm hearing this from. Not to presume that you're talking with with all the people, but you know, people who are maybe more established in their careers, perhaps a less into all the pagan stuff. But maybe it's maybe it's just Boston as a hot house of pagan spirituality. Michael, As you talk with people about the historic Christian faith and he's you said to explained to them, you know,
when they say, like, what's Christianity? What does that conversation look like for you? And do you feel like there's any sort of receptivity among those you're talking to or are you just like talking to hardened wolves down there in New York as it you're feeling kind of encouraged or discouraged or blend.
I mean, it's again, I think there's just there's different types of folks. I think most are I mean, in general, there's more opportunities. I've seen here from a blank slate. I'd never heard of Christianity before. There's a lot of folks who have grown up, they've tried religion. They've tried they grew up in a Christian home, or they grew up in a religious home, and they've fallen away from it, and then they've become successful, and there's just this still
hunger and need. I remember one time visiting a friend in Hawaii and it was kind of paradise, saying it was great. I said, how do you do ministry out here? He's a pastor out in Hawaii. And he goes, oh, it's actually easy that you come out here is paradise, and you're you're still sad and upset, And I said, but then there's then I realized there's actually a parallel in New York. Like you can be successful, you can be on Wall Street, you can have these things, and
then you're kind of like, wait, is this it? And there's sort of there's a cliche about it, But I think there's also a real space where people do wrestle with like there's got to be more. What else is there? What do I do with this? So I do think that there's a lot of great questions like that, and people just teasing out questions and helping them discover it more instead of giving them the straight up arguments for here's why you should believe kind of more going, hey,
you have a good thing here. It's good to care about your job, it's good to do these things. But here is where it's very Augustinian, right. Your problem isn't that you have these desires and stuff. It's it's that your desires are out of order. And let's talk about the order of your desires. And that tends to resonate with a lot of a lot of folks so.
Much a you're talking to me, and I'll I you know, I will someone living down the street from you, and I'm the kind of person who doesn't have much spiritual background and is literally saying to you, like what is Christianity? Like I have no idea, tell me what do you believe? What would you What would you say to me if I were a New Yorker?
Well, one of my favorite ways of doing it, and I still do because I did it. I was walking with a friend in my building a couple of weeks ago, and he knows this person is a pastor, and you know, he said, give me your best shot. You never we never talked about your your stuff. Give me your best shot, as if like I had like some sort of pitch right, And I find it more helpful to ask questions. I said, well, why don't you tell me what you think I believe?
And I would love you. I think that'd be more fun. What do you think I believe? And he would make a list in it and then he'd say what do you think? I said, I don't believe that stuff really either,
and he's like, really, well, what do you believe? And it ends up having a conversation like that, But I guess so would I basically try to get to When we get to those kind of conversations, I say, well, I think the experiences I have show me that there needs to be more to this world than just you come from nothing, you go to nothing, and there's something in between. It doesn't make sense to me, and in
my experiences does it make sense to you? And they go, no, it doesn't make I mean no, I think we're all in this world trying to figure it out. And I'm like, yeah, that sounds nice. But then if you really get to it, can you really base your life off of that? I don't think you do. I think you're hoping that there's more to it, and they're like, well, yeah, but how can we possibly know? And so they ends up being
those kind of conversations. But I start with you tell me what you think I believe, and then we get to kind of go after the misunderstandings, and then we kind of get to, well, what actually explains the world? What story actually explains the world the best in our experiences, and we kind of just pick we get through it, and sometimes we get to here's what Christian actually says, and it's really beautiful.
And how would you explain that? So I said, okay, well tell me what is the story that you find so compelling?
I mean, the way I was met myself in college it tends to be still the place where I go, which is everything in my experience, is you are what you do. It's kind of like the there's a I
think Batman begins. There's the older Batman series. There's this scene where Bruce Wayne's talking and he's like, you are what you do, And I think that that's the essence of sort of our humanity, whether it's what I produce or my friendships or my money, or you are what you do, and everything I've seen in my experiences, that's not going to be enough. And instead of having to kind of earn your identity of what you are what you do, every religion says that it's here are the precepts,
here's what's right, here's what's wrong. Do these things and then you're in. And there's a secular version of that too, which is get the right amount of money. I fine, get into the right schools, do this. It's still what you do. And and the only faith I've ever come across that's the unique and different from that, it's Christiane that says, yeah, these are good things. There are ten commandments, there are things you should do, but you're never going
to do them well or perfect. But there was one who did, and he hands that to you because he loves you that much. And I say, I tell people, I said, give me the paradigm that doesn't that lets you be fully accepted and fully known despite not having all put together. And usually then the comes up, this is too good to be true in this whole other conversation. But I show you uniqueness of how Christianity is outside the paradigm of every other human experience that we have.
I was talking to a young women the other day who comes from an Indian background, and I've just given a talk where I was slightly absurdly the group who I was speaking for it told me that they wanted to me to address how can you say there's anyone true faith? How can a love and God allow suffering? And how can a love and God send people to hell? So you know all about in twenty minutes please kind
of thing. And then we did a Q and A and this young woman came up to me afterwards, and she from her background, she said, do you believe in karma like the Christians believe in karma? And my first answer was, well, no, we actually believe that we are given Jesus's righteousness, Like actually, I can't sort of earn
my way to God. It's not a case of me sort of building up good karma and finding myself, you know, somehow sort of spiritually acceptable that actually I've completely failed and only Jesus' death on the cross can can pay for my sin and give me his righteousness. But then I sort of said, well, let's put that in karma terms. It's like Jesus took all of my bad karma and
gave me all of his good karma. Like I mean, again, I don't sort of fully understand the system of karma as I should, but that it's like a radical difference from any belief system that depends on us sort of working our way up the spiritual sort of hierarchy or accruing enough good works to be to be pleasing to God. That it sort of cuts that cuts. Then hees out from under us if we think that we can do that, and reassures us if we know that we can't, because
actually Jesus has done it all for us. You've mentioned that you're your dad did a good job of sort of translating the Gospel into the terms of the culture that he saw around him in New York in the eighties and nineties, early two thousands, et cetera. What would you say, is the main or would have been some sort of frameworks for translation that you found helpful in the Year of Our Lord twenty twenty four.
Well, first of all, by the way, do you remember that maybe you don't. You should know because.
There are lots of things I should know that I don't.
Well, you too, Bye Bono. He's from He's from Ireland, right, So that's all everything is, that's all that's British. I'm juious, well an American. Indeed, I know it's that true. I know it's that true.
My husband's a big You two fan, so I might know something about Bono.
He's got this great quote. I'm gonna butcher it. But it's about karma and he he he basically says, I believe in karma. Now he's he says he's a Christian. Well, how so he's in an interview process. It's Google Bono and Karma and it's something along the lines of, well, karma is you know you do something wrong, you you
get that eventually it's coming for you. And he's like, if I'm if karma's real, then I'm I'm I'm you know, I'm in trouble here, but I believe grace breaks through that the you know, the karma world that we all kind of live in, and rescues me. And I think it's it's a beautiful quote, but basically it resonates with what the way you kind of put that, that's why
you said, what do we live in? Karma? No? But but kind of yeah, in the sense of if the world is like you get what you pay for, you know, money, then are we doing enough? And I think there's that's a whole other conversation, but we're in trouble if if it's up to what we put if are we putting enough in to get what we should get out?
Yeah? I mean I guess for Christians, you either get what you pay for or you got what Jesus paid for, And it's up to you whether you want to take Jesus's payment or whether you want to pay the price for your sin yourself.
I often think the difference Christian non Christian is not necessarily there. A lot of it is just realizing what I'm actually doing is not enough and I need someone else's payment system because what I'm doing, as good as it is. I was preaching the other day and I said, I was talking about I've been married for twenty two years, and there's been times when I've repented to my wife and I said, I'm really sorry that I'd messed up in this area. But then part of my heart goes, yeah,
I'm the kind of you know, I'm a pastor. I'm the kind of guy who feels good. Yeah, I repent. I'm a kind of guy who can do that. But then you start feeling good about how much you repent, then it's about you. So you start prioritizing yourself and centering yourself, which then twists the good thing and making it about you, which is then not good at all. So is that enough? Like? And I think that's the the root of the issue of are we pain enough?
To your question about the what is twenty twenty four need? I think, in a nutshell, what I'm seeing in New York is a world that is being slowly pulled apart back into tribal systems, whether it's political or racial or socio economic. And I think there's reasons for that. For power that I think people are doing it. It's also easier, it's also more comfortable. It's also safer. And I think
when it comes to translation of the Gospel. I think Christianity kind of has a lot to say in those kind of spaces that we're being pulled into these different places and not able to talk past each other. I think Christianity offers a way to do forgiveness and repentance where you own I messed up, instead of cancelation where
I'm just gonna you're done and out. It lets us be able to kind of call evil and sen what it is, but then assibly create a path for reconciliation potentially and getting back into relationship that I think is powerful. So I think that's something that is unique for twenty twenty four that I don't think we think enough on. It's just that's just one of the things is how are we in a space were being pulled apart ever going to be able to come together again in any
kind of meaningful way. And I think forgiveness and repentance has got to be the way.
Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. I also often reflect on the fact that I meet people through my church who I would never meet in other cons like if I were not a Christian, I would not be in relationship with these with these people for whatever whatever reason, And that actually, sort of ironically, many in our sort of modern Western world who think they believe deeply in diversity and that that's a very high kind of value for them, in actual fact operate in profoundly non diverse
sort of segments of society, or segments that are only very limited in terms of the diversity that they offer. I had a friend who previously had identified as a Christian and then many years ago sort of walked away from faith. And one of the things that she commented that she missed sort of ten years later where she was like, now, like, I only associate with people who are basically rich like me, Like, I don't have any I have no connection with anybody outside of my sort
of economic bubble. You know, my kids are in private schools. My work life is only with people who are highly educated and very sort of prosperous. I have no you know, I can maybe sort of give charitably if I want it, but like or say hi to a homeless person on the street, but there's no kind of framework in my life and meaningful relationships with people who are actually different
from me. And I thought that was just striking because I take for granted that I rub shoulders and spend time with and have you know, at my house for Thanksgiving people with a whole range of different socioeconomic backgrounds. And you know we are that kind of diverse background as well. But like you know, age range, everything, and it's all because of church.
Actually back, let me ask you a question. In our my circles, maybe the same in Boston, there's a high value of Hey, no, diversity is a good thing, and we need to we need to come across lines and we need each other. You see things I don't see a lot of my secular friends have that value. We do as Christians and stuff. But is do you see a difference in the Christian version of how we get there and why we you know, like you said, in a church space, you you're getting to come together people
we wouldn't normally. What's the difference between the secular value of we should? There's something implicitly they get that we're supposed to do this versus the Christian version which see on the surface looks the same or they are they different at all? Or or how you get there?
Yeah, I think in many ways that sort of modern seemingly secular values are actually Christian values that have been sort of repackaged. So in fact, you know, if we ask ourselves, why do we believe in diversity, Why do we think that love across or ethnic differences is good? Why do we think that we should care for the poor and the weak and the marginalized? Like, all of
these things have actually come to us from Christianity. And that's despite the history of Christian sin that you could point to, and you know, in the history of the US, et cetera. So I think that the fact that there is overlap there is because actually Jesus started this extraordinarily. I mean, Christianity is by any measure, the greatest movement
for diversity in all of history. But I think, whereas you know, many of my friends with a similar kind of educational background who value diversity in some senses, actually in their day to day lives aren't experiencing it, or at least only in very sort of limited form. So you might have the diversity of people with different sort of sexual identities, et cetera. But perhaps and people have different racial backgrounds, but not like different education levels, for instance.
I actually think that's often a much harder kind of barrier to cut across than some others and one of the things that I yeah experience in church is just like ongoing fellowship with people who are completely different from me, and the only thing that unites us is Jesus. And that's that's okay, Like that was true from the very
beginnings of the church. And I was just writing this morning about when Paul says in his letter to the Christians in Galatia, in here there is neither jee nor Greek, male or female stave, nor free for Christ's all and is all in all? Or is it for you all one in Christ Jesus. I know there's the verse in Galatians, and there's a verse in Clausions where he's there's something very similar, and I may have mixed those two together,
so apologies for those more astute than I am. But this sense of actually our unity in Christ across all sorts of differences is deep and profound and relativizes every other kind of difference. And I don't think it makes it easy. I think I think the experience of church should, in meaningful ways be work, because if I'm going to build actual relationships with people who don't have the exact same background that I do, it's going to be harder work to find things that we discuss, some things we
connect on. But it's a really it's a work that's it's like getting to know your family. And it means that you can have many for relationships across generations and across political differences, across socio economic divides, across educational differences, because you have in common the fact that you all worship the same first entry, a Jewish man who died on across you know.
Yeah, I think you make a very good point. It matters what happens when the rubber meets to row, Like what happens when it's easy to say we have the same value. You know, diversity is good, But what happens when there's conflict. I remember I met someone and they found out as a pastor, and their first phrase to me was, oh, you must hate me then, and I was like what what? And they're like, well, you don't you think I'm going to hell? And because I don't
believe in what you believe? And I said, well, well hold on, I don't. I don't get to decide who gets to go to heaven or hell. And that's the whole point of God that they say, well, my value is the core of my faith as a man who dies for people who don't agree with him, and so that's that's the court of my faith. I'm going to I would I don't know you, but I would die for you because that's who my savior is. And I would say, what you know, in your view, why would
you want to hang out and care about me? You know, what's what's letting you be able to enter into my world and be with me? I have I know why I would enter into your world even though we disagree. And it really was jarring for that person. Wasn't the conversation. This is over an hour conversation. You're like, it didn't start that way, but but basically it was like, Hey, you're talking about tolerance. My view of tolerance is I'm willing to disagree on this but still love you and
want to be with you. What's going to allow you to love me and be with me even though you disagree with me? And they struggled. It was a little bit of a struggle for them.
Yeah, and as I follow Jesus, it isn't even a butt, it's a because I mean, if Jesus tells us to love even our enemies, we can't follow Jesus and hate our enemies. It's just not on the table for us, Like it's actually kind of built into the system that because we worshiped the one who died for his enemies, including us, part of our calling.
Yeah. And it was a weird turn of things because they were trying to say I was the one who was pushed them away, sitting them holding no, I'm actually here to love you and care for you even though I don't know. I don't know where you're I don't just say where your heart is and where you're going. Then all of a sudden realized, oh, they'rely one's pushing back up. They were actually not able to kind of
accept me for where I am. Basically, I think that's another question that I think New Yorkers struggle with, which is disagreement does not necessarily mean hate. Yeah, And I think there's a lot of that conversation in the culture, which is if you disagree, you must hate me, and if you don't love me, if you don't accept me. So wait a second, I tell my own my own kids, I don't accept all of you. I still love you
because there's things that are not acceptable. That means I can disagree with you and still love you, and that means it's not hate. And I think those questions are very hard for folks of how is it possible to be in New York is a great example of lots of people who disagree. But how do we then still do life together and you know, not be perpetually mad at each other?
Yeah, And it's interesting that the assumption is I mean I would actually in a similar conversation, I think I would perhaps be even more blunt to say, if you're not following Jesus, I do actually believe that you're going to hell, and it would be an act of love for me to point you to him. It actually breaks my heart, like I take no pleasure whatsoever in somebody headed for hell. That grieves me desperately. It doesn't make you my enemy, It makes you somebody who I long
to be my brother or my sister. Because, as we were saying, you either, according to Christianity, you either get what you pay for, which is hell, or you get what Jesus paid for, which is ever lasting life with him.
You are more planned than me.
Well, this is the thing that I don't I don't know in our sort of modern world where people are understandably, like very easily offended. I don't know that the most helpful thing we can do is sort of pull back from the offense of the Gospel. I would sometimes want to even point people to, like, the most offensive thing that Christians believe is that if you if you are apart from Christ, you are headed for hell. Like that's far more offensive than anything we believe about sexual ethics.
So let's let's have that conversation because it's the most desperately important thing, and let's do it with a a posture of love, because that's exactly what the Bible calls us to.
In a situation I was in, I think they understood the offense of the Gospel because they merely said, you're you know, about hell, So I think they did have that I was trying to was the gospel's offensive end of its own. I was trying to say, that doesn't make me someone who doesn't love you, And I think it was trying to actually embody that and say that. I think there's different ways to do that. Sometimes it's
with words, you got to be very blunt. Sometimes I think it's letting the God get out of the way of the Gospel's offense.
Yeah.
Yeah, but by showing them that's not something can be offensive and loving at the same time, as you pointed out already.
Yeah, no, I think that's right. Last question, what is the most encouraging thing that you've seen in your ministry in the last six months.
It's encouraging. I've been We've been talking a lot in our in our context to the people in my church to focus on being curious if this is really true in your life. The biggest problem with a lot of New Yorkers is time. Time is a currency. They don't have enough of it, and so they're always feel like, I don't have enough time. And I think they also think that they're experts in their field, so they have to be an expert in Christianity to be able to
talk about their faith. And we've been doing a lot to try to deprogram both those concepts of that you have more time than you think because it's what you put your time to, and you're not saved by your expert understanding of gospels, so it's not up to your expert ability to tell other people, and instead it's just about being curious and try to instill curiosity with our in your own lives to others instead of just sort of hunkering down. And I got to protect myself and
protect my time. So it's been I've been encouraged by seeing people just a lot of are Kinagans saying you know, I'm just and being curious is an interesting posture, and say you're not setting out to go to your neighbor or anybody else to you know, I'm going to win them for one way or the other, saying I just want to care about you and like what do you need?
What are you about? And start with these kind of conversations and just be present in people's lives because they feel convicted and they care about their neighbor and their people around them. And it's been fun to see and very warming. I'm like, oh, you actually are doing this, this is something that's possible. I think they feel free from feeling like they have to have all the answers.
Yeah.
One of the things I like to say is Jesus made postles from fishermen because it wasn't about being a scholar or an academic or have all the answers. Just like the thief on the Cross, you know you're not here because you understand your perfect views, your perfect view of justification or your perfect view of understanding what christian is really a value here because you know Jesus died
for me and that's enough. And that's been very encouraging to see hearts for that in a space like New York, to where time and expertise gets in the way that they kind of are moving people's lives. And I'm excited to see how it keeps going.
Yeah, well, thanks so much Michael for joining me. You guys have been listening to the Confronting Christianity podcast. You can find us on Twitter, slash x, and on Instagram. You could leave a review on iTunes and maybe note there a question or topic you'd like to see explored
it in the future episode. And until next time I speak into your earphones the whatever city or town or village that you're living in, that you will show the kind of curiosity for those around you that Michael's been talking about and look for opportunities if you are a follow of Jesus to point other people to him, and if you are not, then maybe find a Christian who lives near you and ask them what is Christianity about? Why do you believe in Jesus And help me to understand