During the war years, we in this country have seen many new faces. People from all parts of the British Commonwealth and Empire and from the Allied Nations. When they are in the forces, we have learned to spot some of them. But when they are just dressed like anybody else, it is not so easy.
Hi. I'm Susan Wokoma. I'm an actress, writer, director... sort of known for Taskmaster I'd say? Yeah, that's me. Who are you?
I am Geoff. I am an assistant curator here at IWM. I have of course seen you in Taskmaster.
Thankyou
My partner's a big fan of Chewing Gum
Hey!
Susan has joined curator, Geoff Spender, at Imperial War Museum London, to pose the questions that many of us are too embarrassed to ask... about how recent conflicts have shaped our world. In this series, we are exploring the role of the war artist in capturing seismic moments of contemporary history. And today... it's the turn of the home front . Susan Wokoma: Cause I think that was something that I just was like, 'why would you do that?' Like look at how Great Britain treated you afterwards.
But actually that film, by the end of it, I was like, why wouldn't you want to learn new skills, make new friends , fly a plane? From documenting the women that entered the workforce during the First World War, to the people that made the journey to Britain to help defeat Nazism. We'll look at the artists and photographers behind those stories.
It's one of the biggest losses of allied civilian life in the war... and not one trace of that in, in his photographs, from India.
On our way, we'll encounter censored images of wartime Britain and explore iconic items from the museum's collection; so that we all leave with an understanding of the importance of art in a time of war. All this in under an hour. I'm James Taylor and this is Conflict of Interest. Susan and Geoff meet outside the gift shop and begin their journey to the Blavatnik Art, Film and Photography Gallery.
Are you a avid museum goer?
Do you know? I think I am more a gallery goer...
You say you've been to the Imperial War Museum, but not for some time, is that right?
Not for some time. I've definitely come on a school trip, And then had a date here. Which was a bit intense. My, my boyfriend, he was like a history nut, which is so lovely when you are, so passionate, but it obviously isn't necessarily a date idea necessarily. Right. Not for everybody.
There is one more to our panel today: joining Susan and Geoff... is Diya Gupta.
I work as lecturer in public history at City University of London. And, I've used the IWM's wonderful visual archives many, times in my research.
Okay. Shall we head to the first object then?
Yes, please
Let's go for it.
Amidst the sound of other films in the gallery, Susan is presented with a large oil painting. On certain podcast apps. You'll be able to see what Susan sees. Take a look at your screen now.
Right. What we're looking at is a really large painting, for a kind of workhouse, I think there's some welding going on, and you have loads of workers. it's really stunning
Well, this is one of a series of paintings made during the First World War by an artist called Anna Airy. And it's a painting of ammunitions factory that was in Hackney marshes during the first World War. It's a scene where you see men and women both working to, fill these, red hot shell casings. The story I heard is that Anna Airy, the artist, while she was painting this, her shoes caught fire 'cause of-
No!
...the intensity of the heat.
It's like you can feel the heat... but also just knowing that this is Hackley Marshes as well. Sort of... it looks like something that could be in, I don't know... south of America, do you know what I mean? But it's, but it's Hackney.
So Anna Airy was commissioned by IWM to paint these pictures. She was quite a well known artist in her day. But she mostly painted domestic scenes and portraits. But she was brought in to a series of these photos basically celebrating the factory work, which was like really crucial part of the war.
And lots of people who couldn't actually go and fight because they were too old... or perhaps 'cause they were women, they weren't eligible for military service... they would go and work in these places instead.
When you say commissioned, she was, commissioned by the IWM?
Yes. Lots of artists and photographers during the war to record things in their own way. They had a brief from the museum, there, certain things you wanted 'em to look at, The idea was they knew, even as the war was going on, that once it was over they wanted to commemorate it. And that was the origin of IWM, the Imperial War Museum.
Yeah. Yeah. Who are the people that would've been in this factory?
The First and Second World War, were what they called total wars, which meant that everyone in society was involved in some way... or touched by the war efforts. Even in the First World War, there were zeppelins dropping bombs
Yes.
...on London. Obviously people were joining the military. There was very large scale conscription, which was a relatively new thing. And injured soldiers being sent home. The idea that the frontline was this distant thing. It really kind of starts to erode that concept, the First World War. 'cause there was a blurring of the line-
It's also saying something, you know, you, you read about First World War poetry and, you know, Owen and Siegfried Sassoon... And then you look at this kind of painting and it feels like it's a different world, with men and women on the same plane doing the same kind of job.
And was unusual; 60 years before you had the Crimean War, you had Florence Nightingale and nurses... but apart from that sort of formalised roles for women in the war effort... that hadn't really been done before, but the scale of the First World War made it necessary.
And with five side steps, we move seamlessly to our second object, a group of images. The photos show women office filing, tent-making and sending telegrams. A mixture of French civilians and British women of Queen Mary's Army Auxiliary Corps.
So, as with the factory work in England, there was also a call for women to go over to Europe to work in support roles. Most famously 'be nursing.
Yeah.
Obviously medical support. But also administrative work, which is what you mostly see here. Filing, paperwork, the logistics of war, which is always hugely complicated, especially war on this scale.
So these pictures are of British women, or largely, or a mix of-
I would expect they largely are...
Wow.
...British Women's Services. Yes. The photographer was a woman named Olive Edis, another female practitioner like Anna Airy. Like Anna Airy, she was, in peace time, a professional photographer. She did portraits, things like... she had a portrait studio. She wasn't able to go and photograph soldiers on the front lines. Not because it was unsafe necessarily; in fact, she planned to go in 1918, but then the war did finish. But as you could see in 1919, there was still a lot going on.
Yeah. There was still people being repatriated. Soldiers, prisoners of war, the dead.
Yeah.
You know: deciding what to do with them, whether they should be returned to their home countries... huge amounts of work that Olive Edis was able to capture.
It does feel like this idea of women weren't... didn't have certain rights or couldn't perform certain jobs. It felt so pregnant that women were central to the war effort. Did that stay? You know, women were being enlisted in these roles... did that go away?
The reason that women were taking on these roles-
Yeah.
-was essentially to take the place so that a man could then go and fight. So when they returned from the war, they wanted their jobs back. So that meant that women were kind of shunted aside... in a lot of cases. I mean, once the genie's outta the bottle, you can't really... ...completely go back to how it was. And this was the era of women's suffrage. The women's vote came around this time as well. That must have accelerated that process.
But yes, there was definitely pushback after the war was over. From people who just wanted things to go back to how they'd been before. Because in a way that was what a lot of them were fighting for, was for normalcy. For normality. And that was part of their idea of what that was.
Yeah, was that women should be in the domestic spaces and-
Exactly.
-not performing these public roles.
By coincidence, or very possibly design, the next object is another series of photos. This time taken during the Second World War... but these photos have been partially covered by red pen.
During the second World War, there weren't that many ways to get information about what was going on. You had the radio. And you had newspapers, essentially.
Yep.
These are press photographs, of which thousands and thousands were produced by newspapers up and down the country. The problem was that we had the Ministry of Information back then. It was controlling what information was going out to the public, and these are all photographs that the censor has taken their red pen to and said the photo's fine, but that bit has to be cut out.
Oh, I see....
And Geoff has a little game to play with these photographs.
You see this photo here? A family outside a house? There's clearly been a bombing raid. The family looks cheerful. You know, the children are all out.
Yeah.
...but next door you see that the house has been bombed into rubble. There's nothing left.
Yeah.
Why do you think that's been censored?
Well, some of these editorial changes were made to... boost morale? Hiding the devastation right next to this family is to not kind of elicit more fear.
Exactly right. yes. The reality was that if you lived in this country during the war, you would've seen this sort of damage. Buildings destroyed. There was still an idea that, you know, if it's something to be on a matter of record in the newspaper, you present an optimistic face.
Yeah.
And also anything like that could be used potentially as propaganda by the other side. You see the damage that we are doing to England. And you are denying the enemy kind of easy access to that sort of material they could use. So what about this one? What do you see in this photograph?
Oh, that's an interesting edit, because beyond the kind of edge of the land, so there's like a sort of landscape in the background there's like red marks with red pen, so obviously whoever's edited this or censored this or- doesn't want us to get the complete location
Yeah.
-of where these people are, but can you see where the woman is? But she's sort of changing her shoes or- that's been edited out. And I can't quite make out why.
That just looks like a fence or something. Yeah.
Well, first of all, you're exactly right that they wanted to hide the location-
Yeah.
...of this photo. Because up to date photo intelligence on England would be extremely valuable to the enemy. They know exactly what's going on where. What's also censored, to either side of these people are fencing, barbed wire, just as you say. And these are coastal defences.
Oh, I see.
And the idea was... there was a general ban on revealing what exactly the defences were along Britain's coastlines in case there should be an attempted invasion. So looking at what's left there, someone over in Germany couldn't tell exactly where it was, what the defences were, so it would be no use to them as intelligence.
Right.
I see. That makes sense. So, so the bit near the lady, taking her shoe off-
Or someone, yeah...
...is just the type of defense being used.
Yes, exactly.
That is being censored. Okay. Yes.
And you see, she's not scribbled out. She can be in the photo.
Yeah, yeah. So, in terms of kind of what I understand of modern Photoshop or whatever, being able to get the barbed wire that's either side of the woman out, like scribbling that out, would be easy. They had the kind of technology to be able to do that, then?
They had airbrushing techniques yes. They could absolutely-
That sounds very green, but I'm genuinely...
They could absolutely doctor these images as they needed to, yes. Try this one. The bottom middle here. What do you see there?
So this looks like a kind of, some sort of transportation carriage. Like lots of it's been blown up. It's been obliterated. So there's like lots of wood all piled up.
Yeah, lots of wheels in the air.
Yeah, lots of wheels in the air. But in terms of where the red marker is, it's on the ground, which doesn't look, there's no like no indication of where this is. So the red marker is on the ground. And then there's a little bit in the background, which looks like a location kind of hiding the location a bit. 'Cause that looks like maybe a bridge or some sort of building in the background that they don't want people to know.
But the marking on the ground is peculiar 'cause it doesn't look like it reveals anything.
It's not distinctive, is it?
Yeah
Well, it reveals perhaps more than you think.
Um Oh, okay.
This is a train derailment-
Right, oh it's a train. Brilliant.
The... presumably the, line has been bombed out and the train's come off the tracks and crashed. If you look at the ground, I know it's a black and white photo, but can you see what color the ground is? It's like white? Yeah. Yeah. It's snow on the ground.
Oh, it's snow.
And if you were in German intelligence, you could look at that. You could check the weather as it's been in England. Okay Where it snowed. And you can figure out where that train derailment was. So So even things like that, the sensors thought of and-
Goodness!
Is this art is the question.
Is this art?
Is it art by dint of the fact that it's on display in a gallery?
I mean, yeah. I mean, is that the definition of art?
Is it as simple as that? I don't know.
Move on. Geoff escorts, Susan and Diya through the gallery to the next object.
The First World war was in some ways quite liberating for women. As they got them into the workplace, you get opportunities they didn't have before. And that did decline again after the war was over. But then with the second World War, these opportunities began to appear again. It was another total war. It was another all-out conflict in which everyone was needed to contribute. So we're gonna look at a few photographs again that illustrate this.
We've got one here of a woman holding an axe. Then we have this photo, which is of two men, two black gentlemen. They look like they're having some sort of tea. there's some toast, I think. It's making me feel really hungry.
The two gentlemen enjoying their sandwiches and their newspaper are in the Colonial Club in London, which was a social club for certainly Caribbean, I think also African men to come and have a break, have a socialise. You can see the barman serving them is white. Which I think would've been an unusual experience for men from the colonies coming to England. They were probably meant to be reproduced in pictorial magazines, which were very popular at the time. Sort of National Geographic.
Really the photograph is telling us it wasn't just Britain fighting the war, it was the British Empire. So really what we are considering the home front was a very mixed and cosmopolitan space.
And during the Second World War, particularly in 1939, the restrictions on non-white colonial subjects serving in the military that they were relaxed quite a lot because they needed more manpower.
In a way it's like, we discussed earlier in terms of the roles that women had in the war and sort of those opportunities opening and then closing again, it's like the kind of totality of the world wars meant that things had to be relaxed and changed for those periods. Which in a way, kind of, definitely not a utopia, because they're world wars and millions of people dying, but in a way it's just, even these pictures, the fact these are commissioned by the Ministry of Information?
It's wanting people to feel involved. And to feel seen and feel like they are contributing regardless of where they're from.
It's fascinating you say Geoff, that the Colonial Club picture shows us a white barman serving these two black gentlemen. And that seems very deliberate, I think on the ministry's part to say, you know, if you come to Britain and fight for us, look how the racial dynamic changes. Yeah.
And there was pushback against that of course. Yeah. Particularly from colonial governments in Africa, in the Caribbean, other places who did not like these sorts of messages being put put out. Because you felt when these people come back home they'll have these new ideas and that's a problem for us. Yes. So there was a tension there between, because british authorities didn't care as much, they were... get these guys over, we make these promises, that's fine.
And there was... there was some delicate negotiations.
We move from photography to film and a piece entitled West Indies Calling. Starring well-known voices from the time preparing for a broadcast on BBC radio.
What about these people, for example, who are making their way to broadcasting house in London? Do you know what part of the world they come from? Are they from West Africa or the union? From the Americas or from some outlying island in the Pacific
That idea of like, they could be like us. That's the thing, the sort of assimilation.
Exactly, yeah
This is Una Marson introducing West Indians in Britain. First of all, here is Learie Constantine, the world famous cricketer. Learie used to be just a summer visitor, but when the war began, he became a welfare officer to the Ministry of Labour.
He would've been about 24 I think?
Yeah, look, I was about to say. He looks really young.
Hardly any of us had experience of flying before the war. The air routes between the islands were mainly run by the Americans. When peace comes, the increase in air transport should mean a new career for many of us who have now learned the job.
So transferable skills. It's not just this, it'll be of use later on. And the idea of, like they've never flown a plane before, and then they just-
That was true of a lot of British pilots as well.
Blimey.
As Susan and Diya look on, the West Indies recruits dance together in the BBC's theatre. White women and Black men; Black women and white men.
It's very seductive.
It is, isn't it?
Especially if you felt like an outsider and faced discrimination.
...didn't have many job opportunities or training...
because it's all this "beyond the war."
Exactly.
"Beyond the war this, that...."
Absolutely.
So my question to you is... who do you think that film was made for?
Now that is a great question.
For people in the colonies coming over?
to show... because it was so many... although, it seemed very focused on West Indian people coming over to to work, there was that interaction and showcasing of women as well. So it felt like that was it, young people, people with, who are aspirational.
Well you are, you're half right.
Half?
The film is actually an edited down version of a longer film that was originally made to be shown in the Caribbean. But also in the Soviet Union.
Oh...
Oh wow. Oh, nice.
So so those are the markets it was produced for: the Caribbean market, fairly obvious as you've talked about, but the Soviets, it's harder to know what they were going for there. They may have been trying to present a very, I dunno if the word is right, but whitewashed image of the British Empire, you know. We are your allies in this war, we believe in some of the same ideas of equality that you do, as evidenced by this film and unlike the other side. Perhaps that's part of it.
That's fascinating.
But the film was then, 'cause it was quite successful I think, it was edited down to this shorter version and that was released domestically in the uk.
Right. Okay. It ...right . Geoff Spender: Uh so the version we watched was cut together for a UK audience. And I think part of it was just to warm people up to the idea of having West Indian people in Britain: "these are great guys, they speak really well.... they're okay for the war effort."
Mm-Hmm
You know, they're they're good fun. You don't have to worry about it. And at the end of the war, they're gonna go home and rebuild their countries. You don't have to worry about that either. I think that may be part of the messaging in that, that-
It's serving a dual purpose, really. This idea that you're learning all these skills and, you know, knowledge that you can use in this new post-war world. You know, deliberately, as you were saying, Geoff, left vague and undefined. Whatever this new will be. It's both for the elites and an West Indian audience, but also for English people to say, well, they're gonna go home and rebuild. Yeah. Not stay around here. And Una Marson and people... they were big advocates for...
Yeah. Huge.
...for Black people in Britain and I think that may be partly why they agreed to perform in this film, to take part because, you know, they were advocating for the black people who were coming to serve in Britain and that was something that mattered to them a great deal.
You know, the need to get British people on board. That's quite interesting, I think, especially now looking at conflict where it doesn't seem to matter what people actually want... it just sort of happens! But that need of, like, consensus. But also... not consensus because they need to have people joining the war effort, in terms of numbers.
Yeah. I think during the war itself, I think it worked very well. I think people from colonies were made to feel very welcome in Britain for most part. Um, there were tensions with American soldiers.
Yes.
That's another issue.
Mm-Hmm. Yeah.
In general, they went very well. Things soured slightly when the war ended. They said, well now you can can go back to the Caribbean, with all these skills, and build own factories and your own airplanes.
And you've made all
these
friends, you can't have them anymore.
You have them anymore. Yes. Yes. During those kind of crisis years, I think it did bring people together, at least for a while.
And I've read people's sort of accounts of being in Britain from the Empire at that time, and they said, you know, compared to the colonies where actually racial hierarchies were very strongly and sharply maintained. When they came to Britain during the war years, they were warmly welcomed. And I think possibly films like this had some sort of role to play in that.
Definitely.
In creating a sense of, you know, everybody's participating.
Yeah.
It must have been a delicate balance to strike, because on one hand, you know, so I thought it was quite brave that they show Black men dancing with white women, for example.
I know!
I wonder how that went down with the English audience. I mean, yeah. I can see why it might work with the West Indian audience a bit more, but it, that's... that felt like to me the most-
I thought that was very interesting. Yeah. I sort of held my breath a bit. I was like, really?
I wonder if that was spontaneous or if
people were
matched together for the scene?
Yeah.
Oh, they were casting. As an actor, I'm telling you casting happened. yeah. They went, "you two, you two... bump into each other."
No, go for it
No, go for it in this... tiny space.
"And then we gotta a camera in your face..."
"Just... just ignore us!"
Much like the First World War renowned artists and photographers were recruited to document the Second World War on several fronts, and that included the legendary Cecil Baden, some of whose work during the war we have come to now.
Who's a famous photographer. I sort of know from... more doing fashion and famous people like Marilyn Monroe. So this is really interesting.
Beaton was sent to Egypt, India, and China explicitly to catalogue the efforts of a united Empire. And in the gallery we are presented with soldiers and civilians in India who have volunteered for the Allied war effort.
Oh my goodness. That's really stunning.... that looks very Beaton-esque. That could be in like Vogue, I think. Really stunning. I'm itching to look at the panel... but I'm not going to, I'm gonna look at you, Geoff, and you're gonna explain these photos, please. Stunning.
These are photos, as you say, by Cecil beaton. The fashion and society photographer. During the war, he wanted to contribute somehow. He was persuaded by his friends that maybe the Army wasn't for him. Okay. So he instead... he offered his services as a photographer. He took his usual approach. I mean, he's clearly got an eye for a good looking subject.
Yeah. They're all very beautiful.
And this last one, like you say, it's very Beaton. It's a society photo. I believe she was, the Maharani Gayatri Devi?
Oh Yeah.
...of Jaipur?.
A very young Gayatri Devi-
Beaton said that she was one of the 10 most beautiful women in the world.
Wow.
Wow.
I believe this is the palace she lived in.
Oh Oh wow.
...so while he was photographing soldiers and ordinary people, he would take a break to mix with,
Go to the palace!
...the sort of people he would photograph in peace time. Yeah. Yeah, to be honest. It's-
To me, it's really fascinating to see this kind of documentation happening because... this also seems to tell us that there was, a huge consensus and agreement in India
Yeah.
...to serve Britain in this war. But actually that wasn't the case. Absolutely. I mean, there were two and a half million men, yeah, from undivided India who served this war for Britain. And Geoff was telling us earlier how the colonies never had con... conscription.
Yeah.
So technically these were volunteers. But equally, you know, there were men who needed jobs, there were men who needed to feed their families. They were men like we saw in that, West Indian film who simply wanted to learn new skills and the war was this big kind of launching pad and opportunity to go and train yourself. And do something in the post-war world. Yeah? So there was a whole range of reasons why these men from India were signing up for war.
Sure.
But it was a hotly contested space. So you have the big fight for independence. to get the British out of India. That's happening in 1942 with the Quit India movement.
Right.
And it's fascinating because I think the photo is taking around 1942
It's '44 I think...
Is it '44? So a bit later.
Okay. So that is happening at the time of...
That is happening at the time of this. You wouldn't know that to see this.
No. Obviously I know, that there is support behind the war effort, but actually there is great contention.
There is great contention.
And that's quite scary thing, for Britain to hear that, you know, the kind of fall of the colonies. you don't wanna hear that. Especially if you are looking down the barrel of the end of the war. You don't to feel like you are losing that strong holder No. cause ' you're fighting for Britain. Yeah.
Yeah. the other sort of thing to mention, which always strikes me when I look at his Forties photographs, is... he's in Calcutta here. Between '42 and '44, there's the 1943 Bengal Famine that happens. Calcutta is like the locus of it, where more than 3 million people die... and there is no trace of that in any of his photographs, whatsoever.
Wow.
It's one of the biggest losses of Allied civilian life in the war and not one trace of that Yeah, the suppression of histories and photography is fascinating to me.
It goes back to the question of what is art? And what I said about like truth and... what you are depicting. Like, for me, this kind of... leans more, in comparison to those photos that we saw before, this leans more to what I consider art, and yet behind this is... the truth which is not being shown in these pictures. So art kind of feels... in terms of what I've been conditioned to think, what art is something that has been... it's not actually the truth.
Sure. It's more about what is beautiful,
I mean, I think it's fascinating that his pictures show beauty in the midst of war. I think that's the troubling thing about it as well. I mean, these images are quite attractive ones. But they're also troubling in that they hide so much
Our time at the gallery is almost at an end. As Geoff leads Susan and Diya through the museum to the cafe, they reflect on what they have seen today.
Right, so... as we go for cup of tea, which I definitely need. Love a cuppa. It's really interesting. This notion, which we've touched on before about the changes that the wars encouraged in the UK and then that sort of... I definitely had this looming feeling of, oh, but not all of it stuck! Like this utopia that was projected and all of it stuck. So what do we, I mean, what do we know? What do we assume is the things that, that, stuck and things that didn't?
I mean, definitely I think multiculturalism in, you know... whether it was welcome, was definitely that's... is one of the reasons why I'm here. My parents are from Nigeria and they definitely made the decision to arrive in southeast london because they felt a certain kind of attachment, relationship with the uk?
Definitely I feel... doesn't mean that they had the best time on that journey, but that's definitely why they ended up here so directly I feel it's had that, impact, but.... what else do we, do we feel post-war?
Well, I think that the experience of being, asked to volunteer to come and serve the war efforts to enter the workplace, to go to another country, meet different kinds of people. I think it just changes the perspective. I mean, once you've had that experience, you're not gonna go back to your old life completely unchanged. And I think people went back into their homes or to their country of origin and thought, you know, well, why can't I still have that?
And that I think may have been a driving force... another way of life is possible.
There's a particular kind of outcome that you get when you've been through something as enormous as a world war, and you've survived, or perhaps you've lost people dear to you in that you might become much more aware of your rights and your opportunities and what, and I guess, you know, what, you think is owed to you.
Well, Susan, we are coming to the end of our time in the galleries today. What will stay with you, what you've taken away from the experience?
What we said kind of near the beginning about what Britain was fighting for and then... the war inevitably changes what that is. So then when the wars are over and soldiers who survived come back wanting to keep that status quo, but that's not what they find... I think is really interesting. 'cause then you start thinking, what were you fighting for?
Absolutely. I think if the war, both wars were being fought for particular types of freedom, there were a whole range of other freedoms that were achieved at the end of it. Absolutely.
And also understanding. why lots of people came over to britain to fight in the war. 'Cause I think that was something that I just was like, why would you do that? Like, look at how Great Britain treated you afterwards. But actually that film, by the end of it, I was like, why wouldn't you want to learn new skills, make new friends , fly a plane?
But definitely my... my parents When they were looking at the world and thinking where they wanted to have their future, they thought of Great Britain be- because of Nigeria's relationship to Great Britain. They knew that there would be other Nigerians there so they wouldn't be alone. Once you start that's what happens is you can't ever sort of go back.
And that's where we must leave this Conflict of Interest and the Blavatnik Art Film and Photography Gallery. Thanks again to our guests. Susan Wokoma. Diya Gupta and Geoff Spender. Next week on Conflict of Interest.
Everyone has seen the mustard gas. Everyone has seen that kind of flat, no man's land kind of thing. Whereas this one.... and I studied war! I've never seen an image of a World War I scene with mosquito nets.
Writer and podcaster, Carl Miller tackles the morality and ethics of portraying our war dead and wounded. My name is James Taylor. The producer was Matt Hill at Rethink Audio with support from Eleanor Head, Daniel Ben-Chorin, and the IWM Institute team at Imperial War Museums. Thank you for listening and goodbye.