Innovation in Action: Rethinking Supportive Housing

Hello and welcome to Community Chats. Today I have a conversation with Alex Shannon and Julie Summerfreund and we dive into an interesting approach that is being tested for housing that leverages the capacity of some families as well as the growing interest in land trusts. That begin to address the crisis that we're seeing in housing and the opportunity to look at some housing as more than just a commodity. but as an important part of life for people and communities.

There's a lot going on right now in the area of housing, especially affordable housing, and the need to address the significant shortfalls that we're seeing. This issue is even more of a crisis for individuals with an intellectual disability who require support in addition to housing. With almost 30,000 people in Ontario waiting for a place to live at some point in the future, there is an urgency and an opportunity for housing providers.

advocates and support organizations, as well as families, to consider what the future looks like. A big part of our conversation focuses on a solutions lab project that both Alex and Julie are working on that is a collaborative initiative under the National Housing Strategy, and it brings different partners. perspectives and ways of thinking to the table. We explored what matters to make this approach different, the gaps it's trying to address.

and how working together across sectors can lead to new possibilities. We had a great chat. I learned a lot about rethinking housing, challenging some assumptions, and taking collective responsibility for building communities that people can live in with dignity and belonging. Lots going on in housing these days across the country, and Toronto's certainly new exception, no exception, with lots of innovative things happening, lots of different things.

uh are coming our way. And then a lot of people are looking at different innovative ways of providing housing. Uh and um as we know in the developmental services field there's about 29, 30,000 people waiting for a place to live. So huge demand and uh innovation is one of the ways that we're gonna get at that. So today I'm really pleased to be joined by uh Alex and Julie, who are going to talk about the Solutions Lab project that they undertook.

uh around a really innovative way that might be applicable for some families around use of family home uh and of providing people with a place to live and some other things. So we're we're gonna jump right in here. Alex, Julie, welcome. Now Alex I should clarify I called you Alex. Is it Alex or Alexandra? Which which do you prefer? Alex is. Alex is good. All right.

Uh, just to get stuff off, I know you've both got a lot of background and history in uh in housing and in the developmental services sector. So uh love to hear a little bit more about, you know, w y your backgrounds and how you ended up in this sector and Why why you stay in that? Uh uh Julie, maybe I'll start with you.

Sure. Um great to to be here, Brad. Um a little bit about me. So I'm currently the principal of innovation at a company called SHS. Um we're an affordable housing uh consultancy and we do development. policy as well as innovation. And so I'm in the innovation group. Um and I come to housing via public health. I worked at Toronto Public Health for about five years and then I also worked in doing innovation and design projects in a number of public services.

um before kind of focusing in on housing. And I'd say the reason I'm really interested in in investing my time here is that housing is one of the biggest drivers of this is social determinants of health. Um, and I really think that I want to be a part of things that make tangible impact and you don't get much more tangible than housing in terms of making things real in this world. So that's a little bit about me.

Absolutely. That's uh that's true. Thank you. Um, Alex, what uh what about you? What's what's your journey? Ah well so um I have worked at um I've worked at Developmental Service Ontario since uh twenty fifteen. I've been the housing navigator with Developmental Services T Ontario Toronto since twenty eighteen when the role was created. Um but I kind of

When I was a teenager, I was very lucky to have a job in a daycare and I got to work alongside a young boy and his sort of primary worker. Um and, you know, I've always kind of been drawn to um Help helping, like be being in contributing in ways that are hopefully um are are helpful.

Hopefully helpful. Hopefully helpful. Um and watching this primary care worker, um, the bond that she and this young boy had built together and watching the way that she was able to kind of adapt the environment and um very subtly give cues to the rest of us, the other the other children um within the program and the other staff within the program, um, to really foster an environment where this young boy was actively kind of engaged with

the different activities that we were undertaking. That's kind of where I got my first a sort of taste of things. And um then studied social work and did my final practicum at an organization that serves children, youth and adults uh on the autism spectrum. And I haven't looked since. Um despite the many challenges that you know we we we face every day, I think in a way that only makes me more kind of passionate and determined um to to try to make a positive difference.

to be a part of the positive Hopefully. Yeah. No, that's excellent. And so many people uh that uh work in our sector or um you know come to it because of some of an experience they had as a teenager. A job, a neighbor, somebody I I had a similar experience at a camp I worked at and one of one of our campers missed the bus and he ended up sort of sleeping in my dorm in the with these sort of I was a counselor and you know, th I I won't say that was what

Got me here, but it was certainly an early introduction to understanding uh what people's needs were and I got to meet his parents and sort of understand and those things. c sort of carry on lifelong. I think it's sometimes something we forget uh in our in our work is that Teenagers, kids have a lot to offer and they have a lot to learn from the from the early sort of involvement uh with uh with people. Although

Part of it too is generational. Like my kids finished school and there was lots of people, the integrated classrooms, it was different than when I was going to school. So it's uh much worth a l a lot to remember there. So Julie, I started out by saying that there's a lot of innovation, a lot of cool things that are happening in housing across the country. Particularly in Toronto, uh and as well in in developmental services. Is that right? Am I right or am I am I off base?

Um, I mean I'll share my perspective and then I think Alex I'd love to hear yours. Um I think there's a lot of hopeful innovation work that's happening and different a lot of it we're seeing is through different configurations of organizations working together. So whether it be new partnerships between private developers and public community housing providers.

Or it's like with our project where we're looking at how can community land trusts, this new kind of emergent actor in the system, can really start to make a difference for communities. Um I think there's a lot of

Interesting things that are coming out. We've also seen more and more, as your work demonstrates, uh, the combination of housing and health or housing in a medical facility or looking at things that are cross um crossing domains that used to be so siloed that I think are are really interesting and compelling to see.

Yeah. But there's probably lots still more for us to do. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, not to imply that there's not more work to be done, but it is nice to see because for so many years there was simply nothing. Not no nothing new, nothing affordable, no co ops, no like it was just what we had was what we had. Uh it's nice to see some movement in this area. And just one one more sort of follow up um there before we sort of get into your

pr um particular project is you talked about housing being one of the key indicators in terms of social determinants of health. What walk us through what what what do you mean by that? Right. So when I was working at h uh in public health and probably for many folks listening, are familiar with the social determinants health. So it's about eleven determinants that impact an individual's health outcomes. So it can be the built environment where we live, it can be social inclusion, the well being.

of of the community you're a part of. It also includes things like access to good healthy food. It also is connected to your income and a con and uh job levels. And so when we look at health outcomes, There was a long time where people would think just about it from a medical point of view. You had some sort of illness and then you had a treatment. And the public health model is thinking about the prevention.

And of course, um there's some really good work being done around how do we increase the improvements on those broader determinants of health. And so housing is a big, big indicator of whether or not somebody's able to have a healthy outcome because of course it connects to the stability that they have, their sense of self, sense of belonging. um and also having the stability to go out in the world and and do something. Um, you know, whether that be just being able to go visit friends.

or connect with family, it's much easier if you have a stable home environment. So it doesn't just change your um living arrangement, but it also obviously has an impact on your overall health. Yeah, th that that that's so true. So at Community Living Toronto we've done a lot

of uh vertically inclusive communities, right? Where there tend to be new builds where we're able to get a number of units and support people. And y y we all look at statistics and you can see the importance of housing in a person's overall health and all that. But what's been really cool in the last number of years since we started this is to actually see those numbers translate into a person's

How happy they are, how well they feel, how involved they are with friends. And it's not even just having housing, it's having the right housing. That's, you know, purpose built in a community. It's not some lousy rental in a sketchy part neighborhood that like it's it's housing where they can really feel belong. So it's really uh neat to see see the impacts that uh that are there. They so you guys have started a a project

uh run this project over the last little bit and that's where really what we want to get into. And this was funded through a solutions lab grant, as I understand. So Alex, maybe you can talk about what is a solutions lab grant, if that's what indeed it is. Uh and what was your idea for uh for for this project? Yeah, so um Solutions Lab is uh one of the programs under the National Housing Strategy. So uh Canon Mortgage and Housing Corporation. uh funds the uh Solutions Labs initiative initiative.

Um and essentially it is a program that provides so you know applicants will um put together a a proposal. Um with an idea for how to help address or create a solution um for a really challenging um housing issue, uh affordable housing issue. And so, you know, over the years as housing navigator. So this project it's it's myself and two of my housing navigator colleagues. So there's 10 housing navigators across the province of Ontario.

And myself and two of my my colleagues uh from the eastern region and the southeast region kind of were working together, are working together. So you and you so you you've partnered with Extend a Family in Kingston. Surrey place and then service coordination support, which is in the eastern region. That's right. Absolutely. Yeah. So um, you know, we have been having conversations with families over the years who will come to us and say,

I have a home. I'd like to donate my home to a developmental service agency. Uh and in return for that, I would like for my loved one to be able to remain in that home and to receive the support that they need and perhaps that other other people you know could be also supported. um within that home. And you know, I think that the there are scenarios where where that kind of model has been explored over the years.

um in the current climate, it that conversation doesn't tend to to kind of go very far. We're not seeing a lot of families and agencies being able to come together and um you know, make make that happen. Um and then another piece of it is that um you know we've been working over the years as as uh Julie mentioned uh you know uh Community land trusts are emergent or across Ontario. We're seeing the number of land trusts kind of grow across

uh Canada, sorry. Um, and we've been working with some community land trusts and talking to them about the challenges that they face with either, you know, acquiring their first property or building the number of properties that they have in their portfolio.

And so we kind of had this idea of is there a way to come up with kind of a win win solution where, you know, we could um create a model and create some tools that would really support families and being able to maybe uh transfer a property um that they own either you know donation or um you know

selling the property, some sort of an arrangement, and then being able to turn that property uh so selling it to a land trust, for example. Right. And then being able to use that property then to support. Um you know. adults with developmental disabilities within the home and create the agreements that will be required in order to ensure that they have the support that they need for that to be viable. And of course

Everybody wants to see all of those pieces come together. Um uh as far as, you know, families wanna know that they have the peace of mind of knowing that um their loved one will be able to live kind of uh hopefully long term within the home and have access to the support.

the community land trust who is kind of receiving that property and is then going to kind of steward that property into the future also wants to know that you know the residents of the home have what they need for this to be um a a a solution that works, a a scenario that works.

So we we we've certainly had those conversations with families. Uh it doesn't work for everybody, but for some people they see it as a really good idea. And I we've n to your point, we've never been able to kind of find a way to make it work. The expectation that support be provided lifelong because of a house. Those two things are different. Right. And and one of the challenges that we have in Ontario is that housing supply is not matched with the support that makes the housing viable.

So we haven't connected those things. So uh I'm glad to see that you you you tackled um you tackled this project. The Julie, in terms of those criteria around the the land trust, what um Talk about how you sort of start to think about the the problem solving of that or what were some of the key things that you were trying to address in the in this project.

Yeah, for sure. And one thing for your listeners to know is that this project is in in flight right now. So we are about halfway through and we're at the really juicy stage where we're we're actually starting to try try to solve these some of these problems. And so one of the things that the community land trusts have been talking to us about is been thinking about

being really transparent with families to help them understand what the implications are for the land trust if they were to take on a property. Um, you know, I think there's a lot of folks as we're just starting to navigate, like I have this house I know a little bit about how to buy a house. I know a little bit about how to sell a house. But what does that mean when a community land trust is trying to acquire it? And community land trusts think about things like, what am I gonna have to invest?

in this property to maintain it over the years. Are there gonna be changes to the f to the makeup of the house? Um are we gonna have to, you know, over time make it more accessible and sort of the upkeep and maintenance. costs. And so, you know, community land trusts are literally communities coming together to steward and and protect land and keep it affordable and in their communities and create this long term outcome.

And so when we're talking with the two different groups, it's really about trying to figure out what's a reasonable expectation has been a big part of the journey that we're on with folks. And part part of that will be looking at how do we create some readiness tools for families to assess their property for themselves before they even talk to a land trust. I'm curious Brad and your situations where it didn't work.

the location might not have been great or the makeup of the the home didn't make sense or as you said the mass Didn't math in terms of the exact thing. Yeah, or expectations, right? Donations to an organization, a charity, need to be unencumbered. So you can't it's not really a donation when people say

Um, here's I'll give you this if you do this. Right. And especially when there's a direct personal benefit to a fan. And we get it where people are coming from, but we've just got to be careful around how you how you navigate that. Yeah, and I think there's been some interesting models that people are looking at as like market level sale or reduced sale. And then now you're in now you're in a different

Contractual arrangement, right? Where you can look at different levers and different things that can be committed uh versus a straight donation. Um to to because especially as you mentioned to even access. the donation benefits, you have to meet what a donation is. Exactly. Exactly. So Alex, have you seen? So this has been a question out there. It's been in a lot of Uh no number parents sort of think of this as a good solution and it and it is.

or can be. Um, are you aware of situations where it has worked in other jurisdictions or what w uh w what have you learned about where this where this has has worked has worked well? So I mean we've heard about more anecdotally, so uh about scenarios where this has happened. Um in and and I would say I'm not aware of any kind of a transaction that has happened.

in recent years. So this is going back a little bit. Uh we've also spoken to um, you know, some agencies who have more recently engaged, uh, families, seriously engaged and really kind of um invested quite a lot of time and and and financial resources in um, you know, trying to bring uh a deal like this to fruition, um, but, you know, haven't been successful. And certainly there are things that

you know, we've been able to learn from from conversations uh with with those players. Um but I think also y you know we're sort of Part of it is that there is all the the option of potentially there being like a donation, but we're also sort of exploring what other sort of transactions might actually be feasible to support this kind of uh an arrangement. And then another thing that's come up through the the conversations that we've been having with people

Another idea is, you know, what if it isn't the transfer of a property from a family to a community land trust? What if there is an opportunity um to invest in some way in, you know, a project uh with a with a community land trust, whether it is some sort of a vertical community and it's an investment in, you know, that that development with

you know, an agreement to be able to occupy a suite in in the the building or, you know, adding density, like building a garden suite or something like that. Um and so I think there's a lot of different possibilities and as Um, you know, Julie said we're kind of at the meaty the meaty point of the project where we're really now trying to hone in on like some of those details and and creating the tools that could support the conversation.

that would need to happen in order for a model like this to to work. So and and I I I appre I appreciate the fact you're at at the halfway point. You've done a lot of research. You're now sort of d looking at what to do next. So it uh practically or concretely, what what are some of the things that you're that you're looking at that you're kind of most

hopeful for. Uh now again, won't hold you to it, recognize that you still got work to do, but what are the kind of things so if if we're a if you're a parent or s or a a sibling with a home and you're thinking about this, what are some of the things that that you are most excited about from the the work that you've you've done. And Julie, maybe you can start and Alex you can Go next.

So um in the last month or so we got the chance to interview some families who've created some variations of of this solution, sort of before even community land trusts um came to be. And so One of the really interesting pattern we spoke to some families was about how they first tried it out in their own home, um having a couple of of different people

um with developmental disabilities living in the home, but then also having what they called supportive roommates. And so this was people who would come and live in the the home, they would pay rent, put out a reduced rates so that they could be there overnight um and the parent could kind of move out of the house. So that's some of the how to do it.

that we've seen where people are living for a reduced rent or rent free and there's hours of expectation where they're in the home and then hours where they can go to school or go to work or whatever. So th yeah, that's that's that's interesting.

Yeah. So when we could what makes us excited about that is to your point around like the cost of care. That's it's A big part of the the equation is that if we start to think about these opportunities with the community land trust, where they're able to bring down the cost of overnight. For example, that maybe that the investment or the housing asset that the family has can go further in terms of what it's contributing back.

Um, we've also spoken to some families who um they kind of say, you know what, I'm not interested in generational wealth. Um, I do want to create this space to be in perpetuity. And now that a land trust exists. I have a new partner that I could go to. Maybe they have a home right now, it is supportive living, and they're thinking, okay, if I can create my financial model to match the needs of of my my loved one and then bringing the land trust into this conversation.

they're much more prepared to figure out the solution together. And so one of the things that we are talking about creating is investing in um helping people do and understand some of this longer term financial planning so that There's a recognition that this isn't a a one year process to get you into the solution. We can help people start this process much earlier.

Okay. Great. Alex, what what about you? What what's bringing you hope or what what are you seeing that you think uh is really you're optimistic about? I think one of the really kind of interesting and neat things about the project is has been the ability to bring together, you know. representatives from community land trusts, from developmental service agencies, uh and and caregivers.

And and some of the caregivers that we are engaging with as well kind of straddle uh more than one of of those uh roles. Okay. Um and and seeing the conversations that are that are happening, I mean, Brad like We kind of touched on earlier some of the the innovation and some of the the projects that we're seeing. You know, there is an increased focus on increasing affordable housing stock.

Um, but these conversations it's it's rare for these conversations to actually involve caregivers. Um and to really be looking at the the element of, you know, This is certainly not... uh a representation of of of everyone in in our sector. But there are folks out there who do have resources that they can and are very eager to leverage.

And I think that it's really exciting to be having conversations in you know, careful ways as well, because to your point, Brad, earlier when you were talking about, you know, the complexities of, you know, a person is donating a home and then their loved one is is, you know, benefiting from that. we're not sort of advocating for like a two tiered solution, but how can we bring, you know, people to the table and uh make sure that we are

you know, exploring any possible all hands on deck. So it's that idea of bringing so uh two tiered is uh sorta loaded because in uh certainly in un in Canada. That idea or in Ontario for sure, uh a a two tiered system is seen as like a third rail. We don't want that in healthcare.

But developmental services not in healthcare. And with thirty thousand people waiting for places to live, oh and again, it doesn't mean tomorrow thirty thousand people need a place to live, but over the next there's a tsunami of uh of of um of need coming. And the system currently accommodates fifteen, sixteen thousand people. My numbers right be wrong, but it's about that.

So unless we're looking at a bunch of different ways to leverage resource and do new things and partner, it I I I challenge I I'm s I struggle to see how we'll meet the challenge that's coming in in coming years. And I might just add like what's interesting and why why the community land trust is so so kind of

excited for this. Why is it interesting for them? Is a lot of these land trusts are just starting their journeys as well. They're just in the process of acquiring their first properties, or maybe they have one or two and they're looking for creative ways and different modes of proposing that they can create with the we so community and trust seems to be one of the pillars.

that you you look at as a way to do this. What what's an example of a thriving or or a community land trust or one that that uh maybe you can just describe what that is. Yeah, so a community land trust is a a not-for-profit. dedicated to acquiring and steering lands, um, as I said before, for long-term benefit. So they have clauses around push perpetual affordability um per permits land stewardship and different

Um, land trusts actually are experimenting with different modes of how they are going to be achieving that goal. Um, so we're working right now with actually the the Toronto Chinatown Community Land Trust on a different lab to help them identify their modes.

of how they can uh preserve in Chinatown. And then in this lab, we have a number out of the Ottawa region who have already started to experiment with different financing tools. So they're asking questions around How can we create different ways to bring money into the land trust so that we can then acquire the land or make intensify a property that we already have?

So we're we're they're unlocking both on the finance side to access different um different places than just uh what the traditional community housing providers can access. Let me just feed this back to you to make sure that I can so Um, the benefit of a community lands trust would be that'cause one of the drivers of housing costs has been the commodification of housing, right? So

Um, you know, people buy a house. It used to be, you know, my parents bought a house in 1970 something and still live there. And, you know, they that, you know, they they they've they've they've got that asset. Which m y uh y has grown over time, but which is one thing.

However, many people will buy one, two, three, four, five houses as an investment and drive up land prices and use that for income and all that, which again is a fine legitimate way of Earning an income that the effect though is that the price of housing goes up because of the cons significant profit uh availability and incentive. The land trust kind of removes the profit motive from from this where you're just looking at your you exist not to make a profit.

But to at least break even, I assume, and provide good housing as it relates to a neighborhood or a population group, a group of interest, something uh something like that. Is that roughly Yeah, you're you're nailing it. It the big uh shift is around this idea of what they we call permanent land stewardship. So they're not there there's no intention to sell the land for a profit. So we're keeping it out of the speculative real estate market.

Um and it's also community land trusts are taking a community uh way of thinking about land. So they're not only doing housing, they're also thinking about commercial spaces and green spaces. So they're trying to look at, you know, what is of, you know. There some of the opportunities they're looking at are of course old rental buildings that might be

going up for sale and instead of them going into the speculative market, how can you keep them affordable in your neighborhood? So it's a way to sort of push pause on some of the gentrification that can come and the result of that being instead of a new Starbucks or a whatever. That you might open an art. Community art center or or something along those lines. So okay, so that's the thinking around that could benefit.

um people with an intellectual disability or other need or in need of affordable housing. Exactly. And so why families are attracted to um, taking their homes to community land trust is because they're thinking beyond their loved one. They want to make sure that when they tran this transfers, it also will continue to serve the community.

after their loved one is no longer living there. Right, right, right. Which which would be different from just selling it in the private marketplace and getting right a return. Um and there's also a philosophical alignment because they're because community land trusts are thinking about this from a community led point of view, they're very interested in integrated communities and how do you ensure

multiple people with different needs are being served. Right. Um well it's the essence of community, right? That's uh that's so I uh sorry Alex, go ahead. I think also so, you know, with Solutions Lab when we put in our our application, the round of of you know applications when we submitted. uh CMHC's focus was on trying to increase uh community housing stock. And I think that that was another kind of attractive element is you're taking housing out of the private

housing speculative market and uh, you know, are are shifting that over um into the the realm of of affordable housing, community housing. Okay.

So Alex, what what comes next? You're halfway through or you've got a lot of work to do? What should people stay tuned for? What uh what's what's up next? Well, I mean we're in our prototype phase, so we're really um working now to prioritize. We've a you know, a a very long list of uh uh a long wish list of of uh tools and um you know things that we want to create to be able to support the model and to really bring the the model to life.

for people to to demystify it, right? So um like a a a journey map of some kind and and other tools that can uh support the process. And then I think once we come up with uh some of those prototypes it'll be kind of back to the drawing board with our partners and different technical experts to test. um, you know, the validity of the the the different things that we're creating. So I think that's will be a an exciting and and challenging

uh phase of the of the solutions lab journey. So so are are you looking for people to sort of give input or share like Uh if people are are uh if people's interest is is uh uh tweaked or or peaked because of listening uh to you describe your project, how can they get involved? Or s or certainly or stay up to date? Yeah, so we have a website and we can share the link with you. Yeah, we'll put it in our notes. Yeah.

Um and so there's more information that's available on on the website. There's also a link to the uh we did a launch last year in June. Um people can watch that if they'd like. And then they can sign up to um receive updates from us. There's a form they can fill it to that. They can also reach out to, you know, our contact information is listed on that website. So if they wanted to reach out um with questions or to engage with us around the lab, we would definitely welcome that.

That's great. It's i so it's interesting. We start start off by saying there's a lot going on and there's a lot there's a lot of things actually being built, a lot of ideas kind of that are being generated and a lot of aspirations that people have. So this is This is I'm was really encouraged, Alex. I heard you present this.

at a at a housing forum we were at in Ottawa a number of months ago and was re I I I was not aware of this project until you presented it. So I was really glad to see that. Because the innovation comes

from people just having good ideas, getting the right people together and pursuing them. So, uh, you know, congratulations on the thinking and the work thus far and uh, you know, good luck on on where it leads. I'm sure it'll be an important part of what uh of what uh the solution to the housing in support uh the crisis in support of and housing and especially those for people with intellectual disabilities.

Thanks very much. Well yeah, and please uh do sign up on the website and you know if you've got experience creating a model that you think we should hear about, uh we'd love to hear about we often talk about um learning from people who are figuring it out on their own and then how can you make that work for more people um is a really big part of what we're trying to do. Cause as you said, it's going to take lots of different partners and lots of different thinking and then testing it with

the people who actually would benefit from this the whatever model we create, we really are are committed to making sure it works and it's not just an idea on the page. So one thanks for one part of the puzzle, but an important part for sure. Yeah. Um Alex, Julie, thank you so much.

Thank you, Brand. Thank you. Take care. Thank you for listening, watching, and sharing. We release a new episode of Community Chats on the fifteenth and the thirtieth of each month. So don't forget to subscribe to stay up to date.