CommsDay turns 30: Tim Marshall talks with NBN Co's Anna Perrin

Hello, and welcome back to Comms Day Live. I'm Tim Marshall, a former Comms Day editor and host of this short series celebrating Communications Day, servicing the Australian telecommunications sector with news, analysis and insight for 30 years. In this short series, we've been in conversation with a handful of industry names, looking at changes over the last three decades and reflections on their personal experience, different perspectives on how the industry's evolved.

Today, I'm delighted to be speaking with someone who's risen as a key leader in the sector, working across technology suppliers, infrastructure, strategy consulting, and now in a key role at NBN Co. Responsible for relationships with its retail partners. Anna Perrin is NBN's Chief Customer Officer. Welcome, Anna, and thank you so much for joining me. I'm so happy to be talking to you today, so thanks for having me. It's our pleasure.

Anna, I'm pretty sure it was the early 2000s when we first met, when I was an industry journalist and you had a role in communications and PR. It was after the dot-com bust, and I think the big topic was the launch of the first 3G networks, which funnily enough, we know are about to close here in Australia. I just, to start with, wanted to get some idea of what led you into the telecommunications sector in the first place. Tell me about that early arrival and what made you stick around.

Yeah, thanks, Tim. As you say, I actually started working in London for a PR agency during the dot-com boom before it went bust. And I was always drawn to the technology, the high tech and the telco companies. So I sort of started to carve out a bit of a slot for myself in that area. And I moved to Australia and continued that. I mean, to be honest, you're right, it was a time when mobility was coming to the fore.

It was also a time when broadband we're starting to come to life we started talking about iptv which is now in today's vernacular is video streaming and it just felt to me like a really creative industry and and i really enjoyed the fact that it we were we were talking about things that hadn't happened yet but but it if it felt like we were going to bring these things to life so i was excited by the industry Yeah, that's cool. That's a good reflection. So much has changed.

Thinking about the connectivity and mobility that you mentioned that exists today and how so much of our lives is digital and online, you kind of reflected on this a little bit. But do you think you had any comprehension back in those days about the scale of transformation, society and the economy and everything that might take place? I'm pretty sure I didn't, maybe some of it, but not all. What about you?

I think it's always easy when you look back to go, wow, didn't those changes come along fast and weren't they massive? But I agree with you. At the time, I think it's really hard to grasp. And as an industry, we're always being asked to sort of try and peek around the corner at what's coming next. And I'm not sure that we always get enough credit for that, to be honest. But I didn't know in that moment. But I do remember telling my friends when

we were talking about the introduction of 3G. I remember telling my friends that sharing pictures was coming and we weren't just going to text each other anymore. I remember everyone telling me that that sounded like a really bad idea and who was ever going to do that. And it wasn't that long ago that telehealth, you know, seemed like a concept from Star Trek. And, you know, now we rely on it and it's become life changing, especially for a continent the size of Australia.

And I was in a conversation at work yesterday where we were talking about, you know, what could come next. and the 360-degree video content that's being developed. So, you know, instead of watching Pulp Fiction on your TV, you might physically be sat in the coffee shop at the beginning of the movie or in Top Gun 3, you might be sat in the cockpit of the plane, of Tom Cruise's next plane.

I mean, it's cool what we do and it moves fast. Yeah, that is cool. So a little bit more background here and full disclosure for the listeners. Anna was my boss for a while back at Alcatel-Lucent, which then became Nokia, where you, Anna, were ultimately Oceana MD. Great boss, by the way. Thanks, Tim. I paid you for that. Am I right that when you first joined Alcatel-Lucent, it was before our time working together.

I think it was still around the early 2000s. There was still a factory in Sydney producing physical switching equipment. What do you remember about the industry back in those days? What stood out or was kind of its character? It was pretty digital, right? It really was. I mean, what stood out, I sort of joined Alcatel just at the end of the factory kind of era, to be honest, but it definitely was a time where, you know, we were really, really engineering focused.

Obviously, it was a much more male-dominated industry than it is today.

But it did I do remember feeling that we were on the precipice of something big and that change was going to come the one thing I mean for me as well I mean I literally stood out not just because I was not just because I was female but also because I was not an engineer and I think you know kind of like you became Tim as well I think that you know there's there's a real role for the non-engineers in the telecom sector to help translate the importance and the

impact of telecoms and that's become more and more important of course over the years and it's become a bit of a lifelong passion for me but one of the things when I look back at that time actually as well I was reflecting on this recently is the quality of the people we've this industry has such high quality people and you know as a part of a global organization I think we always looked at Australia is a place where the quality of the team here was always high.

And I look back now, I've got friends and colleagues, and I know you do as well, that work all around the world in big companies, in senior positions, because the quality of the work that we did during that time was exceptional and it was recognised, I think. That's interesting. So what are the characteristics you think, you know, made those people what they were? You say that we were known for good people in Australia in the telecom sector. What do you think produced that?

I think it was because I think we're a naturally curious people and we are, Australians are naturally, I think, inquisitive and not necessarily ready to take the first answer. You know, we like to challenge, we like to, we like to give another point of view. We also like to make sure that our point of view is one that's, you know, really grounded in deep thought.

But I think as well, the size of our industry means we've got enough scale to have enough diversity of thought, but it's small enough that we can share ideas quickly and come up with something new. And I think that's the sort of the centrepiece of why Australia has always been such a, has always punched above its weight in a global sense. That's interesting because it used to always be the case, I think, that sometimes major movies from the US were test marketed here in Australia.

I'm sure it's been the same with some digital apps and things like that over the years as well. That's an interesting reflection. One of the big underlying themes I've found looking back at the full 30 years of comms day is somewhat what you've been speaking about there, which is generational change. It's there in the way the competitive market and infrastructure has evolved, and of course, services. And I'm interested in your views, Anna, from the perspective of culture and the workplace.

How have you observed change over the years coming from that engineering base to where we are now? I feel like you're reflecting there. There were some good, positive stories to tell and some good experiences, but I reckon there'd be a bit of a patchwork, some better than others, and potentially in some ways the industry is led, as you reflect, but also maybe some old-school behaviours there. What's your experience and insights on that workplace piece?

Look, I definitely think we've evolved as an industry. The world of telecoms and technology has changed and it has changed pretty fast. You know, when I talked earlier about the fact that we, it was, you know, we have had a far more male-dominated culture in this industry in the past. But again, I think that's evolved and we've got a lot of women and senior jobs across the sector now in Telstra, you know, Optus.

I know Optus is changing to obviously my current My current but future former non-boss, Stephen Pree, and the comms minister, we've got the ACCC, ACMA, of course, our NBN chair and our new incoming NBN CEO are all women. And that's not, but that's not withstanding the fact that we have, and that's a good thing. I think the more diversity in the industry has got to be a good thing.

And I think we all, we all would agree with that. But it's strange, though, you know, when I think about the kind of the male dominated sort of, you know, you use the term old school influence. It's I didn't really have a difficult I've never really had a bad experience in this industry. And maybe maybe I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses. But I've always found that the people that I've worked with have been in the main.

I mean, it's not always, but in the main have been really respectful, have really tried to, you know, help me and help and help me learn and help my career. So I feel like I've been really lucky. But one of the things that I definitely speak about a lot is I do think that the language we use in this industry and by that, I mean, the acronyms, all of the special, the secret kind of word, the secret sentences we use are quite, they are barriers for young people.

Or diverse set of skill sets to enter the industry. We have this, and I don't know that we tell our own story very well because of the language we use. So I think that's one of the things when I think about cultural change is we really need to start telling our own story better and we've got to make our industry more accessible to younger people because we have, you know, we are an industry that's got a lot of people that are getting older and we've got to bring in that fresh talent.

Yeah, that's interesting. I think that goes to something that's fairly common in business generally these days and technical-based sectors. We talk about what we do rather than why we're doing it and the impact we can create, which actually makes it relatable and meaningful for people. That's right. I just did want to come back on that. That culture piece in this way. And I'm wondering what we can take from that flourishing, I guess, if you want to put it that way, of diversity over the years.

What works to create a positive and diverse and merit-based culture that can be a success for everyone involved? Yeah, I mean, look, obviously, we have inclusive leadership and policies that support a diverse workforce are really important and you know you and you have to provide equal opportunities.

For for you know all all different types of people to enter your team and you have to be open to that you know we've all we all know it but people go and hire themselves and if you hire yourself you don't and and I don't mean literally yourself but people tend to hire people with same types of thinking patterns or same types of ideas and that can be really stifling to a culture and And it also can be stifling to innovation.

So I think that's really important. So it's always good to have that kind of check and balance about the sorts of people you're bringing in and to really make sure that you're actively seeking out not just capability, but you're actively seeking out different types of people that you're bringing into your team. And of course, you know, I'm a really big believer in feedback and, you know, helping to really develop a performance culture.

I think feedback is one of those things that we all talk about and along with accountability and empowerment, those are words that get thrown around like a lot. But if it really comes down to it, you've got to be honest with your people and lead with kindness in doing that, but provide really direct feedback on, you know, how individuals can thrive, how individuals can improve and all of those good things because we're all looking for that.

But, you know, I think a positive and inclusive environment is what we're all seeking to have in our working lives. Yeah, it's a great foundation. There's no doubt about that. And there's a lot that can come from those other elements that you mentioned there. Another big change over the years has been, and it's relevant to your role particularly, it's been in the way telecommunications thinks about shifting from that engineering-led development to a customer focus.

It's a foundation of the legislation here in Australia and literally in your title, Chief Customer Officer, and there's similar roles of lots of telcos and other consumer facing businesses these days. Tell me about that challenge of understanding, anticipating and meeting a customer needs and user needs in a digital world. This is the question. I mean, it's the key question.

And the telecommunications industry has increasingly recognized the importance of prioritizing customers' needs and experiences. And in my view, customers have never been more impatient or have had such high expectations. And that's a good thing. You know, it challenges us to really think about the way we're delivering services. But if you take a step back from it all, you know, customer expectations of what we provide have been exponentially growing.

The demand for data has been exponentially growing at pace. People have gone from wanting four gigabytes of data a month 10 years ago to well over 460 gigabytes now. We've also got a lot more pressure in the right way on us as an industry to make sure that we look after that data appropriately, that we manage security in the right way that we adhere to the really, really significant social imperatives that we need to deliver on. So all of those things are big challenges for us as an industry.

And we know, we know as an industry that, you know, while we were looking at things like years ago, we were talking about location-based services and how we could monetize something like that. We were all looking at that topic and talking about the various security issues that could come with that. While we were still talking about it, Google Maps came along, put Google Maps out into the world and the rest is history. But the value and the money was sort of taken with that.

And we, you know, this industry has long talked about the fact that the over-the-top providers have taken a lot of the value in this industry. And it's really, really important for us to work towards winning that back because as consumers' expectations change, consumers are wanting more.

They want a personalised experience from us. There's a really big opportunity, I think, for us as an industry, but it's also a really exciting time to be working on these really significant technological advancements. Homes are changing. We used to talk about homes of the future. They're no longer in the future. Those homes are here right now. I can see that in the data that we have. Of the number of devices in the home, you know, has grown significantly over the last few years.

So it's crucial for us as an, crucial for us, for MDN and for the industry to remain agile, to adapt our offerings and really to keep the end customer at the centre of all of our strategies. You know, that's a common theme that's been popping up in this short series and that is the ability of the telco sector as opposed to that over the top sector to continue to invest and be able to support the consumer needs as they come and even the industry structure.

But someone the other day I was speaking to actually reminded me that we can never assume that anything we have, whether it's industry structure or the technology we have now, will or can or should stay that way in the future. Things are going to change. Tech will find a way and so will engineers, I suppose, but then user needs will evolve and then there'll be some business model to suit that.

What do you think we can learn from the last 30 years or maybe more recent times to take us forward, just to extend that point you were making? I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean, you know, that's definitely what we've got to keep considering.

I mean, the AI revolution that is here now, it's not coming, it's here, is, you know, that requires connectivity and connectivity that's delivered by our industry. So I think that there's, you know, we need to make sure that we are building networks that support that.

And the reason why I do think it's so important for us to find a way that monetises an industry is because, of course, it costs a lot of money to keep investing in networks for the future and we need to keep investing for the future so that we continue to meet the meet and stay ahead of the demands of the customers that we all serve but you know other reflections for me I remember a long time ago you know spending time with people talking about change fatigue I've got so much

change fatigue and as an industry I think we've changed a lot I'm a massive believer that you need to be really adaptable to change and that you should build strategies anticipating that change will always be coming and as an individual you've got to continue to stay curious keep learning.

Because I do think the best is still to come I'm ever the optimist I always think the best is still to come and this is a small industry you know in Australia we you never know who your customer your supplier your partner or your competitor might be tomorrow so you know make Make sure that you take advantage of things like comms day events, to be honest, and network. I agree.

Anna, I've known you for a long time, so I'm interested to ask you a little about your personal ambitions and goals that perhaps you have there in your role at NBN. You're very much at the centre of the sector. How do you plan to change and influence and make an impact in the broader telecommunications industry? Industry, and what are some of the areas you're most, I guess, keen and passionate about changing or shifting the needle on during your time there at MVM?

I, thanks for the question, Tim. I am, so, I have a few, I have a few goals that I'm really passionate about. So, first is, I want to make sure that I work in service of customers, of end customers, and that we're always thinking about what's best for the industry, best for customers. But one of my primary goals is to drive substantial improvements in how NBN engages ages and in support industry to support customers. And this includes, you know, how we partner to deliver for customers.

It includes service delivery. It includes increasing transparency and making sure that we continue to evolve. And of course, you know, we are now on, as you and I have discussed before, we're now on this really exciting journey where we are upgrading our networks are FTTN and FTTC networks to fibre. And there's real power in that. Fibre, you know, it is greener. It is more reliable. It is more sustainable. It does offer better customer experience.

Those things are all true. And it does help the industry become more cost effective as well as we have less customers calling into call centres. It's more resilient during the various weather patterns that we have in this country. So, really driving a world-class network across the country is a really exciting thing. So, I will fight for RSPs in service of customers.

I will fight for customers and I definitely want to make sure that we keep anticipating what's going to happen tomorrow, but leading today. So, I've spent a bit of time over the years in and around the NBEN environment, as you know. It's a pretty, shall we say, vibrant ecosystem of relationships that are around that world and that you in particular manage, I would say.

How do you feel? Is there a role for collaborating with those relationships and those leaders across the sector to drive, I guess, system-level change across the telco sector? And how do you think those collaborations will play out when we're thinking about the future of digital infrastructure in Australia and where does your role fit with that?

I think it's something that's really important. And in fact, you know, I can see and I hope our retail partners would agree with this, but I think we are starting to collaborate and work together in a way that we maybe haven't done as seamlessly in the past. We've always worked together, but we're definitely starting a new era. And that is really anchored by customer satisfaction.

Satisfaction you know we all know it's not good enough to have handoffs or blame between various different parties we all know that it is a complicated chain that that delivers that ultimate customer satisfaction so we are working together to really look at all those points of a customer journey and how do we improve those points so that we create less friction out in the market and to be honest we know that that's what customers are wanting i mentioned

earlier customers are way more impatient than they ever have been with much higher expectations. We work in a world where people expect things to just be on, to just work. And that's our job as an industry to take away that complexity.

And of course, the other key topic that we all work very closely on and that I'm particularly passionate on is digital inclusion and ensuring that every customer has access to high quality and reliable internet and that is something that i think we we understand and we collaborate really well on we know the impacts of of high quality internet on for communities we know the social and economic impacts of of great broadband and it's something that

i think industry is working much better to work together on still there's still always going going to be things we don't agree on, you know, that is the nature of what we do. And it should be like that. We should have debates on how things should be done. I always think that makes things better. But in general, I think we've got these higher order goals that we're now really working on much more collaboratively, sharing data much more transparently in service of better customer experience.

Sounds like things are moving along and good luck with all those things and to the the industry. We'd like to do those things as well.

Finally, Anna, we were talking about your early career in communications and marketing earlier. I'm curious about your views about the importance and value of media in business. I guess the theme here is that we're celebrating 30 years of Communications Day. Things have changed enormously in the media space over the the years and there's clearly less capacity for coverage and airing issues than there once was.

I've worked in corporate communications. That's not necessarily always a bad thing from a corporate perspective. But how do you think about the idea of media keeping things honest and providing that platform for debate and progress? I mean, it's critical, isn't it? I mean, we need a vibrant industry, a vibrant media industry that is brave enough to speak out on issues, to challenge all of us. I mean, we all know, ComStay is the first thing we all read when we wake up in the morning.

It's the first thing our people read when they wake up in the morning. It is the publication over the last 30 years that has served our industry so well that we've all learned from that. We've shared big moments together in Comms Day over the years. We've heard about breaking news for the first time through Comms Day. How Comms Day has managed to stay ahead of industry gossip has always amazed me. And I think Graham's done an amazing job at that.

But it's vital. It's absolutely vital that there is a platform for scrutiny and debate to ensure that And there is a key role here for accountability to make sure that we're all held accountable and that we keep driving forwards together, that we all understand the issues we're all facing. So, yeah, and for me, you know, Comms Day has been a staple part of my life for many years. I'm never going to forget the thrill of the first time being in Comms Day. I've kept that. My mum's got it too.

It's important and it's important to all of us. That's terrific. Terrific. I'll make sure I pass on those comments to Graham Lynch and the team after this, Anna. But that's about all we have time for. Anna Perrin, it's been delightful to speak to you and get your perspective on the world, part of our retrospective on the first 30 years of Comsday. Thank you for joining me. Thank you, Tim.

And thanks for listening. I'm Tim Marshall, former Comsday editor and now consulting in communications and reputation management. I look forward to speaking to you again on ComState Live.