He was a commander for podcast episode five O four on brand O. Here Ryan, and we're gonna talk about we live in the darkest timeline now, are.
Not fucking put the headphones on?
Gary. I swear to god, I'm gonna have to fucking SUPLEXU through the roof through the roof level.
See you're perfect in vemix. I swear to god, they're so perfect that I could say something totally insane like Hey, Ryan, we're back for yet another whirlwind adventure. How you doing?
What's going down?
You would know why he's talking like that if you're watching on YouTube. There it is. Today's a very exciting day. We're actually gonna talk about something that's been going on on like the social media realms, Oh my god, going around big time, and like the Magic discourse. We're actually
going to address a current thing. Before we get to any of that stuff, we have to thank our official business Daddy's Fusion Gaming Online dot Com, the areosource for all your gaming needs, where you can use extra special promo codes c CEO Nation to save yourself five percent off collector boosy boxes like Tyler mus Tooleystone did and he sent me a collect and I didn't even know that. He sent me with hold on.
Back up, back up, back up. Uncle Brando's got a very special Brando's box opening on the c CEO YouTube channel coming up from Patreon donator of product Tyler motuley Stone. Had we not had Tyler motuley Stone, Uncle Brenda would have got his box at Fusion Gaming Online. Correct promo code, special promo code CCO nation save himself five percent on a on a collector box that's like fifteen bucks.
That's that's several dollars or seventeen bucks, or that's on an actual significant amount of dollars you can actually save. And that's really good because boy, Howdy and Ryan hasn't watched the Row footage, but producer Gary was here and he knows how it went down, and it was I'm very proud of it. You have to do some editing though, using some some studio magic.
Would you would you say that TMS, that's Tyler Bertuleystone got a good box or a bad box.
I'll have to watch and find out.
Oh you could hear producer Gary there in the background. Big thank you to the different Avenue Media, Studio Network, Studio Network, met Network men work men.
Work studio, men at work. We do have some lads that work here. Currently it's only men at work.
The Dufferent Avenue Media men's work.
That's ell yam that's working on right now. Is it's the three of us Producer Gary. You all know producer Gary. Yeah.
Here we are, here we are and uh big thanks to the Patreon supporters over at Patreon a dot com slash. I gotta look at my phone to do this because I gotta hit the button.
The CCO podcast we have a new one. Oh my god.
And I didn't even tell you their pseudonym before we started. So this is gonna be one of the Uncle Brando's special.
Those live nicknames.
Oh sh yeah, this is brand new patron who needs their totally Patreon benefit.
Of being having a super sweet nickname for the discord, which is an actual benefits. You's gonna beat all the dude you talk about here on the show all the time.
Lara actually just said she had a night Paladin vehicle for me. That's vehicle that deals damage. I'll put it in a fucking mind skinner.
And you guys are get a mill and I.
Was gonna buy one on Fusion Gaming online to come.
We need to in order for that to happen, wouldn't you have to play magic with us?
I never heard of it. We're gonna we're gonna actually talk about that today. Yes, I have a very significant point I want to make about playing a little bit less magic than normal. That very much ties into today's topic.
And before we get to it, though, I like when real life impacts work life. Yeah, but it's fucking heavy though. Whatever, it's cool, Like, let's let's weigh them down.
Today's Patreon supporter Obnoxious gear Hulk.
That's a good name.
Obnoxious gear Hulk became a patron.
That's a great supporter.
We've very much appreciate it. Also, f you if you're in the discorder or if you go in the discord, you'll get a bunch of finger blasting and middle fingers.
That's a benefit. You need a real nickname. That was a fake name. So we have to come up with like different.
I want like.
Herbert Gerbrand, Herbert gear Hulk.
No, I want I want some gear hulk because everybody kind of has an idea.
In their head about what about what about a gear hulk? Right? What a gearhol looks like is a gearhulk, just a great big gear, a hulking gear, A gear hulk or gear gears, a bunch of small haulks.
A gear hulk. And Internet speak is like that dude who's leaning over the edge of the bed with his you know, his whole three popcns stacked on top of each other hanging down like that's that's a gear hulk to me, Like when it's.
So big that it it looks like a link of kuba saw.
Do people that aren't from our part of the world know what kuba saw is do? But also not like from Poland or the Ukraine. Oh yeah, yeah, the Western Canada, Poland, Ukraine, maybe some parts of Germany.
U kuba saw cubisaw is a what is a garlic sausage? It is a type of sausage.
Yeah, I don't know what makes it kupa saw, but I want to say welcome and f you too obnoxious to chubby cupisaw. I was gonna say obnoxious cupissas hulk.
No, I like I like chubby ubby cubasa. I don't know why the chubby chubby is a fun word to say, and it's I think I find chubby a very rude word what really, I don't like It's one of my favorite words is chubby. Think of it. I'm thinking of chubby cubasas. I think we're talking. I think we're thinking imagine anything that's chubby. It's always better.
I think we're thinking about different things.
I don't think we are.
Which which did direction like up or down? Does a chubby Kubasaw.
Point, Yes, I'm not.
I'm not sure. I'm not sure what I like more or less than yes, I like juby. In regards to Chubby Kubisaw's.
Well, welcome to you. I like that they're aboard and we appreciate you being here, and we're sorry, but welcome to the Discord and welcome to the family. We really do appreciate it very much. Save a little bit help. So, Yeah, this week we're going to talk about something that we said in the intro or I said the intro, but we talked about before the show, the Darkest timeline because, as we will recall, Walking Dead happened and it was the end of magic. Yes, sir, it's gonna be solid
snake versus a Molson beer can. Oh.
Speaking of beer big thanks to Pilot Bone's Brewery.
And the official sponsor c CEO s What Slam Season three are returning very soon to YouTube versus YEP, Optimus Prime versus Rainbow Bright all Hasbro properties, and we're all.
Like, oh, and and Ball's Hasbro properties. We've got Lord of the Rings and Final Fantasy and we're getting there, right.
I just used Hasbro properties because those were the most easily accessible ones because they could just use them, right. But now we've gone past that. It's been a couple of years since this has happened, and now we've were actually into a release cycle right now to day as you the listener are listening to this, where we have had the single biggest magic set of all time. That's Final Fantasy, shocking both of us because I didn't think it was going to go past Lord of the Rings
and neither did Ryan, and it did. So it's the biggest magic set of all time. And we haven't hit the Christmas release yet. Oh my god, so holy shit. Then we had a space themed Magic to the Gathering set, fucking whatever. But before that was even released, we're already onto Spider Man. Spider Man hasn't even been fully spoiled yet, and we're already on to Avatar before we move into the remastered set to begin next year, So the rest of twenty twenty five will be entirely Universes Beyond. So
we're coming four sets three months Universes Beyond. That is all. Now. It's literally the thing that people were complaining about on the internet. Yes, so what we're going to do today or we're going to address that. Is it as bad as people say or is it just kind of well, maybe you don't like the art, but things are fine. So we're just gonna talk about that and give our thoughts on those things, and we would love to hear what you think as well down in the comments.
Because yeah, for sure, especially some of the regular CEO listeners that always comment. A lot of the YouTube comments actually helped me inform the type of things that people are passionate about, as does the discord full of the patrons, as does comments on social media at large, Facebook and Blue Sky and x and everywhere that I go and post stuff or just randomly frequent and see the public, not even CECO Nation at large. All of it informs stuff.
And I don't want to get into it quite yet, but I've been playing a little bit less magic recently, and I have some very not poignant or acute thoughts about that. But my experience with what was Final Fantasy right before Edge of Eternity, it was the Final Fantasy Edge of Eternity, Spider Man Airbender lore when revisited or whatever it's called. And then we're going back to to strict saving. Yeah, and I have the release states to all those on my phone, and I've got some thoughts
about that. But before we get to it, we got to address the U. I guess the worst case scenario in a lot of people's minds.
Is because it does it does stand, or it's good for us to actually acknowledge like the apocalyptic Holy shit, like because.
And or is it actually the apocalypse? Like is it that bad?
The last half of twenty twenty five is magic? Is not magic anymore? Two things and that things. That's when you look at the IPS.
Producer Gary Laston, I say two things.
Yeah, that's a thing that that's a thing that's happening. Is it as bad as all of that? Because that sounds when I say it like holy fuck.
That well when you use when you use language like oh my.
God, there's the apocalypse. Yeah, Well, you got to use apocalypse. That's good, that's worked sides from and he's a fucking asshole.
The first thing is, we knew that in twenty five and twenty six and probably twenty seven, they're probably going to tell us that half of the products, half of the major product releases are going to be universes beyond products.
We knew that we did.
This isn't a surprise when we see Spider Man and Airbender and Final Fantasy and whatever the fuck else we got this year, Secret Layers or otherwise, SpongeBob, what have you.
We knew that.
We knew that, and we knew even what they were going to be. SpongeBob, Final Fantasy, Airbender was the other one, whatever, whatever, spider Man, Spider Man. I think I said that, well, X Men and Avengers and all.
Sure, there's going to be at least three more marvel SATs coming home.
We knew that, Yes, so we can't be surprised.
That's the first thing. Yes. The second thing nobody is shocked.
Is if we saw two in a row Spider Man, Airbender, bang bang, yep. If we knew that half of the products were going to be universes beyond products, and we didn't get a full fifty percent as of the final two set releases. We have to expect that the last two are going to be universes beyond to make the fifty percent of the sets.
Quota sure, sure, so quotas, yeah, quotas.
Yeah, it is what it is. This is corporate freaking politics and economics and all.
The shit and money. Yeah it's the bullshit.
Yeah, of course we knew that, so we can't be surprised that we get Bang Bang Tunero, sure whatever. To have them in such close proximity to each other from a consumer standpoint is tough. And now I'll get into me not playing as much Magic recently.
I think that with the proximity is the reason why wanted to talk about Okay, because we had a Magic set that I wasn't particularly into, like the space when I like some of the art and the theme, but like I was kind of overall kind of soft on the set, and then they hit us with like a set that's outside of Magic, which I don't particularly think is a terrible thing. I think it's fine, which is Spider Man. But then before Spider Man is even fully spoiled,
they're already hitting us with Airbender. It's like, holy holy shit, Like I haven't even decided if I want to buy any of this yet. I haven't even decided if I'm going to commit some of my financial resources to this man, and you're already hitting me with something else.
We're getting into it. This is it, and this is the.
Thing for me that's like, holy holy shit, like this is if you I look back at it, the things that I like the most hasbro owns all of it, has bro owns my whole childhood, and I accept that. The one thing they don't own wrestling. And I know this, excuse me, and maybe maybe producer Gary's gonna get this as well. But when you watch wrestling, now, go watch a WWE show, and what are you going to see
that's different than all those other shows? The mats covered in ads, yeah, the turnbuckles ads ads, the apron ads, the tables do they have ads on them? Yes? Okay,
the announcer's table also have ads on them. And it's kind of just that being there is kind of like, oh, and it's finally broken the immersion for me, where now it's hard to watch wrestling sometimes and Magic has hit that point for me where when I look at the cards, I'm trying to separate the IP from the mechanics because I'm pumped that new cards are coming out because that's I'm gonna get to do cool new ship with all my decks. But I try, and I'm starting to try
and ignore the IPS. And we talked about it a couple of months ago, where I want an IP where I know nothing about it, and an Avatar. We got it, and so we're gonna have like a special guest in here to explain Avatar to us over the next month, just to so we know what. Who's this fucking bald kung fu guy with the arrow.
Shit from Dragon Balls?
It doesn't even make sense. How did he get so tough? You got beat up by vegeta every day? How did he get Android seventeen?
That is the question that's plagued mankind since the dawn of eternity.
Right because he's a good guy?
Popcns stacked on top of each other.
It's because he's a good man, is what it is. The guy's three foot nothing, so what.
Just because he says the guy just because he's unattractive, says the unattractive guy, and bad at kung fu, says the guy he's bad at kung fu.
Doesn't mean you can't get a hottie. You can get a bad right. All you got to do you just gotta have something going for you. Man, and Krilling did his name literally means chestnut. He had nothing going for him, but he figured out a ways.
Just just not just the last not just not just not.
Call him old faceful because his name means not. Don't google that his face means. His name means not. That's what it means. Chestnut. That's what Krilling is. It's a chestnut. That's what the name means.
Oh Man, so much to unpack from what you said. I don't even know when you started. But this is what I go back to. And I don't want to be the broken record, the thing that I always say, But I have to start with it.
You will. You start with the base and you build up. That's how it works, say build an argument.
But this, but okay, you're right though my base is heyuting the argument off at the at the.
Head he said, I'm right. He admitted it just now he said it. I'm going to hold on to that forever, Gary clip that so I can put it on a freaking.
Key his ringer, Yeah, continue, I want to do my phone ring right.
Just about the first part, just about the first part. My rebuttal is, don't buy it. And that's the end of it. Like, that is the end of it. And if you don't want to have Spider Man and Airbender and jerk Off and Avatar and dragon ball Z and Transformers in your magic, like, just don't play those cards. Like it's that easy. Oh but those cards happened to me. I just go play magic and I'm surrounded by other ips.
That's magic.
Like, if you don't like magic, don't fucking play it. And I did the thing that we're not supposed to do as creators of this game, like we're gonna get in trouble. Yeah, don't fucking play it.
What are they gonna do? Not invite us to magic fast? Yeah, not give us premieu cards like fucking fuck you.
Wat So I said, yeah, so here's the other thing, and and yes, I'm I'm playing this same side of the coin, sure, but I'm playing it from a side where I'm I'm not choosing to not play it. I'm just not playing it. Got a new job. My son's hockey season started. It's the middle of the summer. Yeah, we play hockey in the summer. It's Canada, get over it.
Yeah, there's lots of stuff.
Going on, and I've played less magic than I normally do, And even as somebody who who covers magic and learns about magic as as part of what I do and what I enjoy reading cards, learning new mechanics, seeing the new sets and characters. I still like doing that. I'm still a magic nerd and still do that. The frequency that sets have come out at, and not having the casual kind of cultural gameplay exposure and just spending time
living in the world with my friends. I like that, and talking about Airbender and talking about universes beyond and new cards coming up. I have found it difficult to keep up because, like you say, I don't even have any of my Edgebraternity's cards yet that I ordered, I don't even have them yet. And Spider Man is half previewed, and Airbender is out, and I already know that that Loreman's coming up. And I don't have to spend money on any of those things. But I want to be current.
I want to know the speak, I want to know the new products. I feel like I have to be involved, and that's where we run into me not putting my money where my mouth is. I want to be involved. I feel like I have to because I play this game and any falling into the trap, the fomo trap, and we're we you.
And I also have a you I want. I don't want to say unique, but we have a a smaller percentile that we live in where it's our kind of our job to know all this stuff right, and it's hard to keep up.
It's it's can we can we say that if it's our job, if if if we can even say it's our obligation to CCO Nation and our audience to talk and be informed about this.
We want people to listen to our show to know that we are paying attention to all this ship and it's hard for us to keep up.
I'll say this, we acknowledge that that is our reality. It shouldn't have to be everybody's reality. And with how modern marketing works, modern social media, social media in general, and the pace of product, people feel like that and that isn't a thing that I think a lot of people like. And I'll back this up by by saying things like you remember a couple of years ago, four or five years ago, five years ago, because this happened right before.
COVID happened vaguely, but you're gonna have to really be.
Ronvel Drain came out and Brawl Decks came out, and Watsy openly admitted that arcane signet was a mistake.
Brawling we call it.
Yeah, brawl ring and Corvald and Chulane came out and they were the Brawl Commanders and they ripped their commander for a while, and they were CEDH decks before c H was really a thing. This is commander history one on one. We got to get Mac on the show.
Huh. Now maybe that could be a thing. Who knows. You can say, God damn.
It, and that that was a whole thing that the community as a whole was struggling with and wats He heard that, and it took about a year where we saw a bunch of really broken commanders.
You know what I mean, the whole thing. They just they power crept him out. That's my favorite part. Yeah, And that's fine.
If if the if the high tide kind of swallows everything and makes a new ground zero, they're just fucking Mountain icebergs. That's what they're doing, right, And now we have a new coastline. Yeah, it's just a higher stakes coastline than it used.
To be Superman nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, and let's.
Plan and.
Fuck you made me lose my thought. Now, that was a deep cut that I hit you with.
You did hit me with the deep cut because I've actually seen that movie. Shit Brawlring and Chiwlane and Corvald and.
Sorry we ruined the show. Oh I did it again. I guess it's over. Let's go drink some beer. Well, join us next time for next sunding episode of Fuck. Yeah.
They they're raising all the waters and I used to feel obligated and I still kind of do, but I kind of don't. And man, I totally lost my train of thought. Let me ask you this questions, let's derail, let's.
Re let's rerail this. So let's say it's not Spider Man. Sure, Let's say it's Magic goes back to ammon Cat, because that's that's a set that I love. Let's go back to ammon Cat. Sure. And then instead of Airbender, it's Conspiracy three, it's Conspiracy three. Let's say that those are all magic eyeps. Yes, but they're releasing them at this pace. Do you think that it has the same impact on the psyche of the magic community when there's like do
you do you think it's no, No, I don't. You don't think it's any different that we're having magic not magic, not magic, But mechanically it's you changed the question. Yes, I think it's very different. Like when like because right now, right now, what we've got is magic, not magic, not magic whatever the fuck until the end of the year, and people are feeling a certain kind of way about it.
If we had magic magic magic, do you think that this pace of release, do you think it would still have the same kind of impact on the player basis Like I don't want to say financially because like that's whatever, but like emotionally, like where they're like, fuck, like this is too much shit. I don't want to have to build Peter Parker and Arrowhead Guy as opposed to saying, oh shit, I'm really excited because there's a new Gideon and a new Cranko. Yes and no, yes, and how do you feel there?
Magic not magic, not magic has a certain appeal to new player acquisition people who love Spider Man and love Airbender and love Lord of the Rings, and love Final Fantasy and love whatever other bullshit.
That we got. That's who these sets are targeted at. Do you think that we're actually looking at a time where I'm gonna say, not WATSI. I'm not gonna blame Watzi for this one, but Papa Hasbro, who I will blame for all sorts of things. Do you think that we've reached a crux point where they're saying, Okay, listen, we're gonna give you some fuck money, and we want you to take that money and turn it into the
most money you can and they have discovered. I think that it's been established over the last few years that outside magic, eyeps bring eyeballs in, and more specific than eyeballs, it brings in money. Yes, because and I would suggest that Final Fantasy was the exception to this rule in this case, because it's the one where you've already got people who I would argue that more people play Final Fantasy and Magic than more people read Lord of the
Wings and Lord of the Rings and play Magic. And I think that that was proven.
Hey, hold on, hold on, you're saying too many things for me to unpack an answer anything before we move on to the next thing.
I'm unpacking so many things. I'm packing so many things. But what would you say? Not only stop, just give me a question.
No, you already gave me fifteen.
Questions, good answer thirteen of them.
I can't answer any of them.
Damn it.
Okay, Yes, gaming crossover, Final Fantasy, Magic, Yes, Yes, Yes, closer, closer game closer, relation, familiarity.
Yes, retaining players is what I'm looking for. Yes, we're retaining more players with Final fantasysse are probably more existing.
Not mutually exclusive relationship.
Correct.
I don't need to play Magic to also love Final Fantasy or Lord of the Rings. It is because I don't need that. Those things aren't the same thing.
You love Lord of the Rings, you love spider Man. So you're gonna buy this stuff because it's it's a it's a part of a thing that you love.
Better if I if I love spider Man and Spider Man is on Magic the gathering that will get some people to buy Magic, the gathering, even if they don't play. And Walking Dead was the perfect example of this because it was such a small, compact, little thing for forty dollars that if I collect every walking dead thing that there is, I need the magic the gathering cards of it. That's a great way to test the water. Will people do this?
The answer is yes, big Toe and your second to big Toe in the wah.
Yeah, but only if you're if you only got one of them longer second toes Hey like on like on uh shallow hellep.
Yeah, I don't. I don't you cut deeper than me and Gary you can even see holy shit.
Yeah.
Also though, also.
There is a different section of people who see Spider Man on Magic card. Hey, I like Spider Man and Magic's a good game. Magic's the fucking could be the best game ever invented.
I would argue that it is the best gamele top game that they're ever invented, next to Dungeons and Dragons and.
Yeah, but they're different though one is one is a tabletop RPG, the other one's a trading card game. Yes, they're different things, different categories. But if Magic's the best version of this kind of game that we're talking about. And you see an ip that you also like, like Spider Man or Airbender or Avatar or Lord of the Rings Rings, I say Avatar we know we're going there, right, Yeah, Okay,
that's happening. Yeah, they're just released the next movie. The next movie, there'll be a secret layer.
Yet. No, it's it's it's the anime Avatar. It's not blue. Yes, I know that.
Okay, I know we're also seeing the blue guy Avatar. It's gonna be No, I'm saying we're going to Okay, I'm predicting that we're going to.
Okay, that's a prediction. Holy shit. Okay, having a ship give me a break, like, dding, are you Fabruary ever going to Avatar again? Well, we already had all those guys.
Oh no, this is the blue this is the James Cameron Avatar.
This is Sigourney we ever on a magic card? Get it here? Yeah.
Magic is a great game, So whatever the fuck they put it on.
People who like that thing are gonna play, are gonna play Magic.
And it's about player acquisition. They know WATSI or Papa Hasbro or whoever.
The fuck knows that.
Ryan Panaff, good friend, Ryan, that's me is gonna read magic cards and spend money. Fusion Gaming Online is gonna buy products, and I'm gonna buy it from them using Coco Nation brom go to get a discount. All of that's gonna happen. They don't care about me. They've got my thousands of dollars over the years, my tens of thousands of dollars. They've got your tens of thousands of dollars. And you're not going anywhere because you're an enfranchised player.
You got too much invested to fuck off. Because Avatar and Avatar came out in the same year, they've got you.
It's two different things. That's my favorite part. You're here Spider hyphen Man and Spider Man one word the same thing, but they're two different.
We're getting they're getting Man's Secret Layer and Spider the Set and Spider Man universes beyond.
We're getting everything.
Yeah, wait until we get the Fly and then the Fly and Spider. They're gonna have mechanics that work together.
Can you imagine if Jeff gold Bloom was on two separate Magic cards, on two separate ips.
Yes, people, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. They're gonna like they're gonna have Meldon. People are gonna tape them together and get Jeff Goldbloom to sign them like they would get to like like Elijah Wood and fucking Sean Aston to sign Froto and Salmon shit.
Like that's gonna happen.
So at that time, I got the layer that played Sarah Connor to sign my My Children of the Corn DVD and just like this happens so rarely, and I was like, yeah, I know, but this movie is so fucking good that she signed it anyway.
Anyway, So very cool, very cool. I would totally is totally aside. I would take a Lord of the Rings card and get it signed by the wrong cast member, just just to see what they do, because they know they know they've signed and seen magic cards. Like if I brought my if I brought my my Froto magic card to Andy Serkis to get him to sign it.
Oh, just to make a famous person feel shitty. I love that. That's my favorite.
I get like the wrong voice actor and Transformers to sign some shit. Yeah, yeah, it's all gonna happen. You're enfranchised, You're gonna buy it regardless, because you have magic decks that these powerful cards go in.
We've had this conversation before. It's about it's about.
New player acquisition because they have to show growth year over year, right, And I mean that is what it is. And it goes back to do you like it or not? Just like buy it or don't buy it. You're already enfranchised. If you don't buy Spider Man, you're gonna buy. Here's a great example. I just dropped a few bucks on a bunch of Warhammer forty K cards for my mind Skinner deck. Sure that came out four years ago or five years whatever it was. It also was a Universe
is Beyond. It also was a successful project or product. It's also old. I had to get those from Fusion who had to pay money to to WATSI to order that sealed product and crack it, or had to give money to some to some guy who traded it in. Yeah,
and that's how the machine just keeps rolling. And as long as places like Fusion and our friends at Face to Face Games and all of the other big stores, flannel, wireball and everything, as long as those keep rolling, the ship keeps rolling, and Spider Man comes out, and Airbender comes out, and Dragon Ball comes out, and all that ship comes out.
So let me answ you with some more questions. You answered all my questions from before. I had with a couple more.
I hope dragon Ball comes out. I do want to see that. I woul like, can you imagine day one going crazy about the fucking dragon Ball universes beyond?
I want Ratits, I would. I want to build the Ratits deck because he's my favorite cause he was the most awesomest character and he didn't wear pants.
And he lasted one episode. Oh yeah, and then Goku just put him in a full nelson and pickle a blast at him.
Yeah, I just killed him with his freaking two finger kit him and his brother. Yeah, fucking blasted. And you could never can you imagine somebody could mega beam canon killing anybody in Dragonball Z? Now? No, no, it would just like hit them and be like, oh yeah, thanks for cooking my toast.
Thanks for killing that mosquito that was biting.
Me exactly right, like so bad, So let me hit you with this. Here's the questions, here's the here's the here's the one at a time. You've got the enfranchised Magic player base, of which you and I along, yes, sir, and I would argue that most of the enfranchised CCO nationalites are also involved. So new card set comes out. Spider man, whatever the ip is, it doesn't matter. Yeah, it doesn't matter. We're gonna look at those sets and think, Okay,
we're gonna buy some cards. Yeah, we're gonna buy them.
I'm gonna buy some Spider Man cars.
I'm going to have We reached the point where Wats's saying, Okay, we have this circle of people and whatevery release, they're gonna look at it and they're gonna buy it because they're enfranchise magic players.
Absolutely, they have metrics on that.
And now we've moved into okay, let's because we've already got the circle, the core people. We got them. They're not going fucking anywhere. We got them. And Spider Man nowhere and now they're now that's the macho man thing. Yeah booms. And now they've expanded to the circle. And that circle is where you include things like Spider Man. It's now Spider Man's like, oh okay, I like I like Spider Man. But let's try this magic thing. Oh, Avatar the Last Airbender is pretty sweet. Oh there's a
cool game. Oh people love this game. Let's check this out. And do you think that now they're trying to onboard more people, but more kind of seeking to get the casual collector dollar as opposed to the onboarding players dollars, because they already know both.
You think it's both, well, obviously both obviously both.
Do you think that there's one that they're kind of Do you think that they're tilting more towards one than the other. Do you think that they've gotten to the point where, like they're they're they're happy with just looking for the collector.
Look at the design on the cards.
They're gonna lean on their their their core base. But then everybody other than the core base is just the casual fan of the product that's gonna buy it because they like it. Look at the design on the cards.
If they are targeting core players who they want to buy their magic cards even if they don't give a shit about Avatar The Last Airbender? That's me and me and and uncle also me. Are the cards good?
Yes, there's a couple that I'm very excited about. Yeah, then you buy them? Yeah?
Are the card Do the cards have cool art on them?
No?
If you liked Avatar the Last Airbender? Do the cards have cool art on them? Are they collectible? Is there a collector number on them? In that case, yes, yes, yes, so Avatar collectors and people who are interested in collecting one of each of the character. And I don't know anything and about Avatar, but for example, there was like three or four Froto cards in Lord of the Rings. You want all of them. If you want to collect proto cards, you.
Did Lord of the Rings, if you Alex did Final Fantasy Lord of the Ring Full and Lord I was trying to I was trying to give you all the credit for and they you guys wanted to do full set just because you're fans of the IP. Yes, right, I haven't hit that since Mercadian masks. The cards are good, so we want them.
We play, and we recognize them as good magic pieces. They don't have to have names or art. They just say word and have a collector number to make them.
A unique game piece.
And you are good. They could have ones and zeros, and if we could read binary and they were.
Good, they would be good.
You could put a nine of fucking diamonds on one and a ten of clubs on the other, and the ten of Clubs is the better card.
That's the one that you buy. Like that.
If magic worked like that, then that's what we would do because we want a game and we want to win.
You want to have one hundred and nine of diamonds or whatever the fuck. Ten clubs, tea clubs, shut up.
So the cards are good. They're collectible to the people who care about that, or or Avatar or whatever the ip is.
I think that's key. Absolutely, it's key.
That's why when you look at the card, everything about the card is good. This is design and marketing and gameplay mechanics. It's it's a cultural thing. You have to believe. They pick ips that have a cultural gravittoss around them. You don't see video games that are just kind of something that nobody's heard of, right. They curate the list of what they do, and they target certain audiences that like those games. This is how like multinational corporate marketing
works within the gaming sphere. It's not a mistake, people, and the frequency of it might feel like a mistake to us as a consumer, but if they're making money hand over fist, which they tell us they are because they're a publicly traded company, it's not a mistake. And this is the world we're living in, and that's why we're a law worst case scenario as per your intro. Now the question is the real question is is it really the worst case scenario? Is it the darkest times?
I think not.
I think the darkest times would be if they did a bunch of ips where they were just like you know, Gavin Veri and his fucking inner jerkoff circle are like.
I like this, I like this.
Oh, let's do these, and nobody else likes those, right, Like I like polished rocks, and they do a set on polished rocks, and everybody, I'm a marine biologist all fish. Yeah, and nobody likes that. That's I think worst case scenario.
Because every card is blue and they're all fish. Nobody likes that.
And and Hasbro's like, oh, we're not giving any more subsidies to Magic. The game's under We're foreclosing. Magic goes away, right, that's worst case scenario. That is, in the actual darkest time, when every single set makes a record amount of profit, you can't say that this is a bad scenario to be in. You just have to be the person to say I'm not feeling this one, and I fucking hate that. A lot of my coverage over the last few years has ended with that.
That feels so anti climactic. It really I'm gonna say it really does. But that's not a shot at you.
Yeah, that's just my personality. And I'm okay with.
That, and I agree with you. I think that if you don't like it, I think that I've always said this. I've said this with lots of things, and me and Gary worked in like a politically charged environment. I always said, like, if you don't like something, then fuck and don't do it. Not engaging with the thing that you don't like is the best way to tell somebody that you don't like it. And if Magic had a bunch of shit that nobody liked,
nobody was engaging with, they'd stop doing it. So this is obviously functional for the company as a corporate entity. I remember the other thing, Oh shit, other thing hit us.
The other thing was do you remember around the same time chew Lane and Corvald came out Every Green Creature, I'll uh. The Questing Beast at Al was seventeen lines of text A seven seven for five trample and indestructible and cannot be damaged, prevented and ETBs and does this and this and this and this ev and green could draw cards and green could destroy stuff, and green could do this, and green and green and green and green
and green. For like two years I do, from about twenty twenty one to about twenty twenty three.
I play all those cards in my arena deck.
Green did everything, and everybody thought that green was the de facto best color in Commander. As of now, Green's the fucking.
Best remains that way, Yes, and a.
Lot of the times on things like weekly empty g and articles and everybody, yeah we right now and this is this is WATSI kind of speak. Green is green needs some love. We recognize that it needs some help, and Commander, it couldn't do this or this or this, and green is the creature color, and creatures need to improve because the best spells in Magic at Large and Legacy and Vintage and Commander are non creature spells. Greens to creature color, we have to green, green, green, green, green.
Jerking off fucking two green dicks at once.
Yeah, right, my favorite thing. Yeah, love creatures.
Yeah, the jelly green giant off a couple of cans of beans, hell yeah, taped on top of each other, like yeah.
Being me harder daddy, hell yeah, exactly.
Being all over my whole body. And that happened for two and a half years, almost two and a half years. Cool Green kind of ended and we entered it. And and as that was happening, Watson would always say, yeah, we hear the green feedback, loud and clear. It's Green's time. You have to remember that these decisions and cards go into design and production and printing and distribution years before you ever see them. We've heard your thoughts on Green.
We exited the green kind of era of Commanders right around twenty twenty, twenty twenty three ish. We entered into the red chaos draw oh yeah, and measure era of magic around call time in twenty one or two two, about twenty four.
That was my favorite.
Everybody fucking lost their mind. Another thing with treasures.
Oh we did that too, Yeah, of course we did. And I was fucking into it because I loved it.
We left the treasure era of magic, where Watson said, yeah, we heard treasures are a lot. But remember two years in advance, the Future Future League all this bullshit right our into were Mouse. No, we're into the Ward era of magic, the Ward and Synergy, the Ward and Synergy, because everything's got thirty eight lines of text. That's the era that we're in. Maybe you zoom out a little bit and look at like the super era that we're in, and that is the Every fucking thing in twenty four,
five and six is all universes beyond. Like sixty to seventy percent of our products is new player acquisition universes beyond, and in due that they identify that enfranchised current players are selling out and leaving the game, and they have a high player turnover and no longevity in their player base.
And what they say is, oh, yep, this is gonna take a year and a half to two years to course correct, because all of this stuff is already in production, it's already in print and distribution, and it takes a long time for us to work some new kind of super design into our model.
Can you imagine Gavin Verry? Goddamn it, I can't. I can't fucking wait until Everybody Loves Raymond comes out?
Shit, Friends, Friends, Frasier, Everybody Loves Raymond?
Fuck?
What other nineties sitcoms can I name?
Oh? Cheers? Fuck that? Who's the Boss? Mash? Holy shit?
Are you afraid of the dark?
You're afraid of the dark? Set?
I would give me some Are you afraid of the dark and goose bump Holy shit? I imagine, oh, WATSI fields in the mail.
Yeah, checks in the mail.
Baby, here it comes, goose bumps, book cover, alternate arts like Showcase models, Yeah, Showcase card.
People would absolutely. Yeah. Let me hit you with this last question before we go.
Last question.
I know that you hate hypothetical questions, but let me hit you with this.
I just have infinity different answers for hypotheticals. It's not that I hate them, it's just they're impossible to answer.
But let me try and answer this one. Do you think and you listening, do you think as well?
Comments below?
Bitches in the next let's say two and a half years, eighteen months, I thought you were going to say, inches, we're going to see Watsy building magic sets and then pitching them to ice ips that would fit two staple and name onto them to make this do I don't think that they're going to get that far.
But how do we know that they're not already doing this?
Well, they might be, they might be, and we have no knowing, right, but do you can you see that being? Because I think that that for me, for me, magic the death of magic is whatever. But like, the the darkest timeline is when a bunch of game engineers build a thing and then they take it out and say, hey, we could we could stick your ship on this for
X dollars. That's the darkest timeline to me, because that's kind of cool because that's where you get like, oh my god, like okay, like what comes out this year? Yellow Jackets the fucking set and Raised Anatomy the set and you know what I mean, fucking.
With George Clooney, America's got talent, Batman and Robin with George Clooney and Uhlsia Silverstone and Chris O'Donnell, Yeah, and Arnold Swarzenegger and Uma Thurman.
I would buy that hottest movie. I think absolutely, did we agree on we absolutely, we've agreed on this thing in the past. I remember we have. But I'm like, I just think I think that that's the darkest time. You have like a really good magic set, but like it's got just some kind of ridiculous I p staple to it because because money, and I realized that Magic's
about making money. But do you think that will ever come to a point where the game engineers Wizards of the Coast are going to build an entire Magic set and then shot around and whoever's going to give them the most dollars. That's what the set is. Do you think we're going to hit that in the next couple of years following this the synergy slash universes beyond Era, Ryan, what do you think?
I think that Magic's rules set is complex yet new wansd enough that they could I think that they could. And if there isn't an exact bunch of variations of different abilities like kickers everything, they could just write one. They could just write something and be like this fits this and this and this, let's go and see who's the highest bidder.
I think that could happen.
I think that that is a lot more challenging for their already obviously very taxed design team based on frequency of product and insider trading, having talked to designers and talked to world builders and done interviews and sat in on conversations and panels and media room kind of exclusive stuff that only fucking I get to do because I have a media pass. I know that they're taxed. I think doing something like what you described is more taxing than saying, marketing, who did we get Airbender?
Fuck?
Yeah, we're gonna build the Airbender set.
Absolutely, you're you're absolutely right. You are correct in that, Yes, I had something. You weren't expecting me to disagree with you, were you?
No? He was No, I was right, of course expected you to fucking you were. Absolutely recognize knowledge when it slaps you in the face.
That's why I asked. That's why I asked you the question instead of telling you something. Oh, I wanted to know what you thought, because conspiracy Brando, because sometimes I'll fall into that, does think like, are they are we going to enter into the blatant pandering marketing era where we get a bunch of bland, kind of exciting because power creep sets, but they're not as well built as Let's talk about the ones that meant the most to us.
Lord of the Rings and Final Fantasy were like you had, Oh my god, Like these really line up because the universes beyond so far have, whether you hate them or not, audience, whether you hate them or not, flavor wise, have been overall pretty fuck pretty good. Yeah, and then are we going to get to the point where they just built sets that are good and they're gonna just staple something to them because they're kind of Genericway, I.
Just had I just had an interesting thought in that. Man, what.
How do I? How do I articulate it? Tony Hawk pro skater? Oh yeah, come out like, what the fuck?
Give me a.
Blair Witch Secret Layer or some ship like that.
Give me, give me something, give me something like that.
The lady from blair Witch just signed her stuffed monkey.
Totally lost it again, totally lost.
Stop doing that.
I suck today.
You're just you're not holding onto it. Bro, No, I don't know what it was. You want to find it? Or should we just sign off? Is a good one? Damn it?
Damn it?
Are you gonna have it for later? I don't think so? Maybe next week? It was Actually it was actually good though. Okay, if you think about it, I'm gonna start doing the thing interrupt me if you get it. If you have any thoughts on this, please post them in the comments down below. Remember Patreon dot com, slash CEO podcast, or we can help support the show. It really means a
lot to us. It helps us keep going, and it helps us stay in the Lovely duff or an adive and you media Network Studio Network Studio Networks, where Gary is very gracious to have us here big thanks to Fusion Gaming Online dot Com, the air source for all your gaming needs, where you can use extra special promo code ce ceo Nation to save yourself five percent off all this shit that you're gonna buy now, the things that you're gonna buy from in the past, and all
the universes beyond that you're going to buy in the future where you like the IP or not. Did you find it Nope? But I have something else.
Oh, all of the non universe is beyond stuff that you're like into. Like, what if we lived in a world one day where they produced a good set because little do you know, Magic has great designers and they knew right are among the best game thinkers in the world.
What if they put out a product that we really fricking liked that was good, like a lore Win product that was so popular, or Shards of a Lara again if we ever go back, or Edge of Eternities was just our thing, or ether Drift I really like because all the vehicles. What if they put out a product like that and you want it and it's actually a Magic product.
Let me hit you with this before we sign off, after the Universe is Beyond, after Spider Man, after Avatar. The next one is our revisiting of Lorowen. Yeah, and I we're gonna have this conversation later on in the show, and I guarantee you we will in the next few months. We're gonna have this conversation. I would argue that Lorowen was the set that was the flip from magic building just magic to Okay, we're gonna power creep things to
sell cards. I think Lauren was that, and Loroan has been left so far in the fucking dust that when they reprint that whole set, it's like Jesus Christ, like, this is the only reason this is worth anything is because it was only printed in Laura and her Share and we're gonna see if that set was actually any good. That's that's the that's the task.
Lauren is so fantastic because it was like the Western European myth land, but it was it was it was what Lord of the Rings is, but they couldn't do or say any of the Lord of the Rings stuff, like what are Kithken? Like what are they hobbits? They're literally halflings. The land of Fairy. That's where Laurin took place, and that is what Lord of the Rings captures. Is that land, that mythical other world. It's fantastic and I
can't wait to go back there. I'm really excited to see what I'm pretty sure it's a remastered set, right.
Yes, so I'm excited to see what they actually pull out of that and what it's.
We're going to get another reprinted thoughts sees.
Good because maybe it'll go from being twenty five dollars to being twenty four dollars good.
I don't care.
I don't get another.
Is Bitter Blossom still expensive?
No?
Are there other cards that we play?
No? That's the point. No, No there is.
I think there is.
No Name one Shadow More card that you play Shadow More card that I play.
Name one Glenna Lander Ark Maage not from Shadow Moore.
Shit. Yeah, and you don't play that at all. You definitely don't play that card. You definitely don't. I did for a while.
Anamar, That's a good ass card, Anamar count A two things got it got precist already precist persist. Yeah, I'm calling it precist from now on.
Good. I don't know Ryan's gonna think about all the lore Win cards that he plays, and we're going to bring that list to you on the episode. Uh, I was trying to figure out the freakin' what's the thing the pre show? I was talking about the pre show? God damn it, who cares about the pre show of cook Mander Cookout Podcastrethy