Commander Cookout Podcast, Ep 490 - Our First Bracket Update

He used to commander who got Podcast episode four ninety. I'm brand Om, here's Brian.

I'm never gonna discuss the changes of the recent implications now what the fuck? Shit hit our theme?

Don God damn it, he used to commanders who got Podcast episode four ninety. I'm brand O, here's Ryan, and they're gonna talk about the impact of.

The recent rule changes now in our day.

Hey Ryan, we're back forgeting another whirlwind adventure.

How you do it?

Good? What is going down? Man?

My ability to do those intros is going down?

Isn't that?

Holy shit? That was not good?

So good, so good?

But there is other things gonna go down.

We're gonna finish off our conversation from last week talking about the implications of the changes to the bracket system and some new game changers and stuff.

Did they miss anything?

What happened to our decks? All that kind of gimmick. We're gonna got some stories to tell. We've got some people to thank. Before we get to any of that stuff, you have to thank our official business daddy's over at Fusion Gaming online dot com.

They are your source for all your gaming needs where you can use extra, super duper special promo code CCO Nation to save yourself five percent off all the stuff that you're gonna buy anyway.

Possibly in preparation to come hang out with us in Vegas. Probably yep, I was gonna say probably and properly at the same time. But also probably people are gonna want new cards coming up, final fantasies on its way. You're gonna want to save some money on that, so we're helping you do that. CCO Nation Over at Fusion Gaming Online dot com you can also get dice in boxes and secret layers.

And mats and all the step posters and all that shit you could possibly want.

Yeah, we also want to send a big shout out to our good friends over at Pile of Bones Brewing Code. They are the second coolest thing to come out of Regina, as well as being the official refreshment sponsor for c CEO.

SIY What Slam Season three episode four recording in May release right here on YouTube.

That's it, Yeah, very much so, and big thanks goes out to producer Gary from the Dufferin Avenue Media Network Network Studio Network Network, Studio.

Network, Dufferin Avenue Media Network.

There it is. Yeah, we're here, we are finishing our conversation about the recent game changers, changers and band list updates, band list update and generally the kind of ten thousand foot view of the format and what it means like going into the spring into Vegas, what we can and what maybe you out in CCO nation can maybe expect, right based on our experience, our game play, being in

Well, I mean they could. It's a great community, very much so.

Yeah, And of course if you're a patron, you get invited to the CEO Experience, you get the exclusive merg that's getting. You've seen it, you like it. I do still forgot the show producer Gary, but that's okay, that's okay. Uh. House is booked, Oh baby, house is booked. And let me let me hit you with this.

It's real life.

Let me hit you with this.

It's happening.

Yeah, this is this is what we about. Okay, okay. It's got enough beds for everybody.

Nobody has to sleep on the floor.

Yes, that's very important. That's why. That's like why I booked this house. Excellent, but bonus or in addition to enough beds, it has two stoves in its big ass kitchen. Okay, so all filler, no chiller, killer Miller and Jared Sink guy can cook like seven thousand chili tacos for us. Our house is gonna smell cute. It's got a pool, Dona smell cute. It's got a pool. Okay, It's got air hockey, foosball. It's got a living room with leather couches where me and Rusty trom Jones are gonna watch

You mean it has a room with a pool table in it.

Yes, sick billiard's table. Yes, yes, yes, you have a pool table. And here's the thing. It has a frickin' street Fighter too arcade in it, peepee. So I was thinking about bringing a box a Jumpstart to do a Jumpstart tournament because I know that that's your favorite.

Can jump start right in the pool.

I know that it's your favorite, absolute favorite thing. But instead, maybe we have a Street Fighter two tournament sick that would that would actually be sick, that would be fun, that would actually be sick. Yeah, So that's the house update. The merch is going to get ordered. There's exclusive t shirts coming out. I took the liberty of assuming that you want one, I do, so I'm going to get you one cool and we'll have that. And there's going to be some new merch, some new stickers and stuff.

I hope we get to play outside again. That was my favorite.

I know that that probably won't happen because that was a consequence of them trying to.

Pay for the play areas. Yes, but that was really cool. Also that in the shadow of the building and place.

Yeah. Also that was in October. Remember it was a little bit cooler then we're going in June. It's going to be hotter in the Devil's ball sack.

Yeah.

Yeah, what's your point? Well, some of us will see through skin like you're good friend Ryan. Oh yeah, we get sunburned. Oh yeah, we're a jacket.

No, I've seen people wear jackets in Vegas. I don't understand it. No, No, people do it.

No, not doing it. Okay, So that's the CEO experience update. Sit. If you want to get part of I want to get part of that, become patron. Yep, that's that's that's how you do it.

If not patron, but are going to be there anyway, of course, find us. We'll play with you. It's gonna be super fun.

Yes, last thing about Vegas. I will have a full binder chocked full of new altered Magic cards and they need to find new homes. AKA, they can't come back with me because I don't want to bring them back. So come and find me. We'll make a deal.

If you don't make a deal on them, I'm throwing it in the pool before we go back to the plane.

I don't want that to happen either.

There you go, so you help him out.

Help uch.

Your good friend rights directly into the pool. I'll even go with it.

I'm fraid I seen it.

I'm gonna go into the end where I can still touch the bottom though.

Oh yeah, and he's the short one, remember, so probably.

It would be the shallow end. Fine, it's fine. It's probably still deep enough to get a binder wet.

That's it. Okay, unbannings, unbannings. Here's the thing. We last week covered all of the new game changers. We covered the unbannings. And have you seen any of the unbanned cards yet in the week or two since it's thing?

No?

None? You haven't seen anybody play gifts on given?

Nope.

I haven't seen any Sway of the Stars, No good thing, good thing. Have you seen any new game changes or played with any Oh you have, because you told yesterday in the pre show you or food chain story? Yeah I did.

I did see a food chain in my own hand. I did not play it. If you want to hear the full story. Do check out the pre show yep. But so I have seen a couple.

Of the new game Changers show up any other experience with Game Changers conversations at the Coachman Licensed Beverage.

Room, Not at the Coachman Licensed Beverage Room, but at eed H and M as a whole. There are a couple of new like maybe trios of people.

Okay, like like friends that are coming to play out in the wild, yeah, or that are showing up that I don't I haven't played with them. I haven't sat with them or talked to them yet. But do they need beat up?

Probably?

Okay, but I have I feel like they're newer players, which is good, and they talk loud, which is also good because I can eavesdrop.

On everything they say. So I've been doing that because that's what responsible journalists like myself.

Do, absolutely right, Yes.

Yeah, Gary says, Yes, what I've been listening to are they have their bracket conversations I think are a little bit and this isn't a burn on them if they're watching a little less nuanced than ours in that they are still of the level where's like, oh yeah, that card costs fifty bucks.

Of course it's superpower.

Oh right, so there so that cola win mentality. But they expect magic cards to be cheap.

You'd see us laughing if you're watching on YouTube, which yeah.

But the point is I have been hearing a little bit more about it, and they've been taking it fairly seriously, like oh.

Good, like a relief.

Like I'm really glad that Worldly Tour went out there, because like I had one, and I was really nervous to play it.

I didn't want to wreck it. It's worth a lot of money.

And now and now I don't play it, and.

Now I'm not gonna play it because it's a game changer. Oh like, to just stay away from game changers. This is what these new people are doing.

I don't hate that, stay away from game changers. Here's some of the negative space about game changers is when you put a game changer in your deck, and I don't care what deck it is, I don't care if it's the only one in there. It's what you're doing is limiting theoretically the places you can play that deck.

I like the system, and I've said I do that too where I have so I have a solid fucking one, it just cleans house at once, and I have a hard time playing that sometimes.

To that end, we do have a theme deck, a one theme deck that we probably should update. The All Game Changers deck got twenty new cards, so get the list. Get the list updated. There' ZODJ put it the disc card.

That's gonna be.

I'm actually, I'm actually encouraged to hear that players that at least you think are new YEP or seem new.

They seem to know what they're doing, like they okay, let me, they're not making like they're not tapping a land more elf to find a forest out of their deck. Yeah, right, Like they're doing fine. And what they're they're they're playing pretty strong stuff, like they were talking about playing Kai

Okay, this this is what I'll say. I am encouraged to hear that at our own store, players who are less experienced than us are using the bracket system as part of Magic the Gathering Commander format's rules set. They've incorporated that into how they play the game, and I think that's a great step.

I am absolute happy with that as well.

And that's pretty frickin' cool.

If it's one of the things that once you get a hang of it, you're gonna do really good with it, and it's gonna help lead to more better games, I think yes.

And especially the rule zero conversation, and because that was useless.

If they show up well rule zero alone, right, we're still having rule zero conversation. It's still a fetish for lots of people. Right. See the c CEO store to get your your fetish sticker, for sure. But to be able to have that conversation, have a rule set to do it with with your friends, arms you with the confidence to go out and do it with people in the wild, like you know how to do it, yep.

And if there's anybody and if there's anybody in the conversation that wants that, because that was a thing I would run into, I can just say, look, it's a three because this, this, and this, Yes, don that's it. If you want more information than that, now you're angle shooting me. And you want too much deck information, sit down and shuffle.

Your cards and yeah, throw down.

I have no patience for that.

Come have you? Have you noticed? I guess if you haven't run into any other game changers. And over the last two weeks you've only played with like people that you normally play with.

Yeah, the last couple of weeks have been a little bit less Brando out in the wild because Alex with his Ryan like broken leg. Yes, I've been like we save a spot for him, and so inevitably, like I say.

Hey, I'm saving a spot for Alex. So these two guys go sit over here, and.

So we'll play with Alex a lot because you're being a good friend.

Yeah, because I get there the soonest and he gets there the latest. So it just kind of works out where just the dude bro's hangout.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine, that's fine. I just played on an episode of Curbside Pickup with Gemston Mind John All Killer No, Philler Miller, Oh my goodness, Colton McCarthy, Jenny McCarthy's brother, Oh yeah, and Gemston Mind John did I say it? Are there? It is?

You did say it twice.

I was there too.

You're the fourth one.

You got it? I guess if I was playing, uh, And we had a little bit of a conversation like what do we playing? This is my thing and I think I played food Chain in that game, and that was before it was a game changer, So it was like it was the morning. It was like a Saturday morning game. And then like the following Tuesday became a game changer, and I didn't win the game, so you s better? But oh yeah, definitely. So if if you're into the Fastest Commander gameplay on YouTube, freaking check out

Yeah and usually tis Yeah.

Okay, decks that you play or are any decks changing as a result of game changers? Are you? Are you letting this define how you build decks?

No, but okay, I do think there might be some changes a common to a couple of decks.

Changes be a coming.

I think so because when we initially had the bracket system come out, we both sat down looked at all of our decks. I have this, many two's this, I have one really solid one. I've got like maybe two fives, and then like a bunch of threes and fours. Sure, I've gone up to ten fours. And that's too many

Game changes in it now, so it goes from two to four.

And before it was a three, and you thought this fits right in the middle of how Commanders should be played. We've got the mouth breathers over here and the ceedh killing laser beams over here. I'm kind of in the middle.

Yeah, I can do all the things. This is a stout deck.

But now, like base if you look, if you click on it online on my deck list, it's a solid four.

On Architecture two dot com it says it's a fuck, it's stupid. Yeah, And here's the thing. Here's the thing, and this is one of my notes, and one of the things that they wanted to make sure that they made a big deal of is And for the record, nothing changed, no cards were printed. You're not playing any cards that were just unbanned in your Mono red Norn deck. Like, nothing changed in the list. But because more game changers exist, now you're deck's a four, I'll pausit this because this

No, I'm gonna tell people that it's a three and it has a blood.

Moon in it, So so blood moon makes it a four. Yes, apparently apparently. Now blood mood's a bad example because.

There's like ruination in it.

Blood Moon and ruination aren't on the game changer's list.

They're game changer categories. And we're gonna get into that later in the show. Because I've decided that I do not agree with it. We have to do something about this.

Do you want to get into it now? We're talking about it now, Now you say you don't agree with it. There are game changer categories, and what you mean is like multiple cheap tutors or mass land denial or extra turns or two card combos. Those are game changer. We're going to call those categories. Yes, that bump your deck up to two or three or four.

Because the game changer list would be too long had every single extra turn spell on it and.

Every single stone rain thing, right, yeah.

Exactly two freaking long.

Yeah, so you've got two land denial cards in your deck that also has four game changers. Yes, and you're positing that this deck is still a three yes, defend yourself, sir, well, cross.

My arms, play fucking basics, then you'll be fine. Okay, that's the number one thing with the mass landed out.

I don't mind that.

And my game changers.

Are meant to power out the ridiculous five cost spells that I'm playing.

Oh yeah, five cost spells. Ridiculously.

If I'm ramping up into playing a possibility storm, which isn't a game changer, it's annoying, but it's not a game changer, or ramping into trying to swing with it at Tully before everybody's on lines that they can kill my Atali or steal it and then kill.

Me with it.

That's what they're there for. That's what it's doing there.

Because Red doesn't have a lot of ramp So I play the game changers that let me get to playing my mid game stuff in the early game, like Jessica's Will.

That did that become a game changer?

Always was okay, okay, you don't play, don't I don't pay what do you play it?

I have sure can't play manacrypt mm.

I can play Man of Vault and I do. Hey, I got a Kirsten Zeribble Masterpiece signed, so I got one.

Yeah, that's pretty cool.

That's why I play that.

That's pretty cool card.

And I got an Ancient Tomb.

It's pretty cool.

And I've got a Deflecting Swat, and I got a Gamble.

And deflecting Swat and Gamble just got made game changer.

Ship and the Deflecting Swat. Let's be honest, I should probably cut You could cut that. For the same reason I don't play Jessica as well anymore is because when

And like if it's an activated ability, Narin isn't going to go away because he doesn't exile himself when you activate an ability, right, when somebody activates an ability, correct that card.

It's a really hard card to play.

Yeah, I assume that you have one that has alternate art or otherwise doesn't look like a magic card that is correct, because that's the theme of the deck.

Yep.

I would say, Uncle Brando, your problem is solved in quite an easy way. You take this card that the format as a whole seems to have a little bit of trouble with placing, as in terms of power level right in deflecting Towata and also in your deck not that good?

Are you saying I should have a Mountain instead?

You could cut it? And you know what, Mountain doesn't interact in a negative way with your blood Moon.

That's right.

You could make that cut thereby solving your problem where you say, I have this deck that's a three, and it was more of a three before the recent game changer changes. Now it's a three still, but it has two land denial cards that, oh, if you're new or budget or playing pre cons that have lots of.

Basics, aren't gonna be impacted by at all.

Yes, And you could go even further and say, if you're playing the game changer lands, you're gonna have a tough time against my deck with its game changer category cards that are designed specifically to deal with problematic game changer lands. And then it kind of feels like you've got this thing that fits in in all the places it ought to and where it doesn't in the land denial category. You can say, this is the cards, here's the two cards, and this is the reason.

Let's use some other deck examples. Maybe Nouran is a bad example. Lots of people played against Nora and they go, oh my god, this deck is crazy.

I think it's a fucking great example.

Let's talk about one that is definitely not a four, but is a four not because of game changers, but because of the game changing category, specifically, again, the land denial card.

Okay, Obeca two.

That's the multiple upkeep step Obeca.

Equal to how much damage she does, Right, get that many upkeeps post combat?

Yes, it is a four. Okay, it is.

A four because it plays a rising tide in it rising tide.

That's an enchantment for Blue three players can't untap Land at the beginning of each player's upkeep untap one land. Okay, So I play it, I swing in, I get six upkeeps, I untap all my land in addition to all of the upkeeps that I other upkeep stuff that I'm doing.

Yes, and it slows my opponents down.

That one card takes the deck from being a two because it's not playing any tutors or any game changers, yep, and turns it into a four.

And I don't think that that is correct.

I don't think that that should be a thing, you know what, because yes, rising waters are rising tide or the hell it is is like and it's a nasty piece of business to deal with.

It's like winter orb that you can break the symmetry on with your commander.

Exactly how much does it cost to cast four?

Four? And Obeka costs five or six? Four? No, she's three color, which which would allow her to be costed at four. Yes, Ryan math, Yes.

Math is important.

So yes, So like I can play Obecca rising waters swing with Obeca on tap.

Some land, you guys are going to start having a rougher time.

And I but I don't think that that makes the deck of four. I just don't like when you look at the list, it says this is a four. Why the fuck is this a four? Because you play a single piece of land denial And I just don't think that that's I think that that's doing a disservice to players. Me and Aiden have the Converse station all the time, like people should play. If you've got a wasteland, play it.

If you got a tech edge, play it because there's super powerful lands out there and people are afraid to do stuff to stop it.

Well, tech edged wasteland and strip mine, those aren't mass land destruction. No I could. I could if if that's the case, I could play Stone Rain. That's not mass land destruction. Right, So the upgraded and core and exhibition brackets brackets one and two and three say no mass land.

Denial none zero none zero.

And I've heard this and thought about this when I was going to get my DP my diet PEPSI from the car, I thought, hmm, I'm sure it's been talked about because there's a lot of smart people on the Commander Format panel and a lot of game designers from Watsie who it's their actual for salary job to think about this. So people don't quit playing magic. They get paid every day Yeah.

To answer the question that I'm asking right now of.

Why and how much is more specifically because they're not saying no, this card's banned. Yeah, it's just don't play it at this level.

It's more powerful than any game changer. It's more powerful than any three game changers.

Because oh, that's it. That's a way to look at it. Because I can play zero of this category of card, even though I can play up to three up to three free counter spells in Fierce Guardianship deflecting twat and for so will.

Yeah.

Yeah, oh wow, I never thought of it that way. This is what I was going to say. I went on to get my DIPEPSI dep as we call it in the Nation, and I thought, I wonder if anybody's thought about number of game changers in deck equal to category that they're in, Like you get one in one? Yeah? Like my what if? What if? My what if my theme deck needs because of a theme maybe in the art or all of the art is done by one artist. Maybe I need a Teffrey's Protection in my exhibition deck.

That's a great example of what would be an exhibition deck that people would go, it's going to be a white.

Blue control deck and noverbody's going to hate it.

Yeah, but pretend it. It's not. Pretend it's not.

But that is one that this is an exhibition deck, like bellow.

Yeah, okay, so my exhibition deck is bracket level one. It's the entry level in terms of power to the format.

Right.

Fuck, that's not even right. That's two yeah yeah, yeah, okay, Pretend I didn't say that it's a one. It gets one game changer. My core deck gets two game changers.

I like that because now that they're putting game changers kind of as they add them.

If they said that you can have two in core, then people wouldn't be going.

You guys put seedboard music a pre Yeah. Yeah, they know that, and they acknowledged that, and they say it's about intention and that was built before this was built. Blah blah blah. Yeah. In three like always have now four in four or more or less, it's about intention, but we're we're looking for hard and fast rules to help us govern intention, right, and then five is just bullshit?

Yeah, although now you're breaking one of the other bracket rule and don't you go?

Well, and that's the thing. How do we make it as clean and simple as possible without without people getting their deck turned into a four when it's actually a two or three because they play a blood moon.

Yeah, those are the ones that kind of get me. And here's the one that.

Another example kind of the why is this where it is? Because Rebecca two, one card from one category, it's a four when it probablyably should be a two.

That deck isn't very good. I'm probably gonna take it apart.

Obeka one. Obeka one has not less than six or maybe seven extra turnspells and dear spells that end my opponent's turns.

Thus taking away their untaps and their agency and all that stuff. You could compare Timestop to seedborn muse in that you're taking all of the time.

Watch some old sidewalks slime. You'll see me Ti time stop Ben. It's hilarious.

It's actually hilarious. It whirlwind between the legs, dunk. Oh so good, he's so good. I wish it happened to me. Me too, I wish that, but I'm happy for it to happen to Ben, because fuck that guy.

That deck three, and it's got like nine or ten extra turn spells in it.

You know what's funny? Time time stops a weird one because time stop isn't okay if we're very good, well, if we're playing one v one, time stop is an extra turn spell. Yeah, that I just and your turn, I'd take another one. Fuck you in a four player game, though, it's like it's like thirty three percent of an extra turn, so it's like you're rounding down. It ain't an extra turn spell. It's kind of like a counter spell or a fog.

It's a really really good counter spell.

A really good counter spell, or a really good fog, or a really good Jeffrey's Protection maybe or a really bad Teffree's Protection I guess. And in all of those cases it costs five six Fuck it costs six, right, So is it actually that good?

And it's just fun and it has a beck on it that's why I play it.

And it's a weird one because it it isn't quite an extra turn spell, it isn't quite a counter spell. It's certainly powerful and can act like those things. That's a weird one. Timestop is a weird one.

It's a strange, strange card.

And maybe we have to accept and again lean back onto our experience and our intention and read the fucking room boys, like read the room about my my two that's actually a four because it runs a land Anisle spell and just include that in our fetishized rule zero zipper mask conversation.

Yeah, and that's what I do with Obeca. It's like they say, it's if you look it up, it's a four because I play a Rising Waters and I'm not cutting it. I'm cutting it because because I fucking want to play it. It's the only deck I'll ever play it in.

And you know what, I think that that's fine because you're upfront about it because everything else in the world with regards to you in that deck is like on like even ground.

That's on the level, like you.

Nuts start to the wind and it's like here they are.

Yeah, oh but Rebecca one not like it's not a four, and it certainly changes extra turns because the extra turn spell is in it cost fucking two.

They're basically time walk.

How do you how do you do that?

Because I play Final Fortune, Final Fortune, take an extra turn after this one, then you lose at the end, right, Yeah, that's why I play Obeck still.

Has count as chaining extra turns. I think that they.

Do well when I go, I'll take an extra turn after this one, and then I take that turn, I say, oh, I'm gonna do that again, and I do it again.

And that's definitely changing.

After channing extra turns. I've certainly taken four or five turns in a row in that deck.

And you're saying that that deck's a two.

No no, no, no no, I'm saying that that's the one that they should be uperating because it has such a high dense Ten percent of the deck is me taking extra turn and.

Okay, and it's a three.

Does arcadect dot Com not count Final Fortune as extra turn?

Guess not? I guess we just did we find a loophole.

We might have Final Fortune and time Stop both not extra turn spells on architecture dot com. Correct man.

And the other three final fortunes are two final fortunes of the hell A.

Warriors Demise, Final Fortune, Worst Fatal End.

Maybe Fatal Push, Time Stop, Grim, Lava Gamble Red Yeah.

Okay, okay, so that's where we're at.

But those are those are the examples that I have of where it's just like the brackets are being applied kind of and maybe it's just the website that I'm using. Yeah, it's applied strangely, and I think that having just a category that immediately makes your deck air quotes better than it.

Is, I think could become over time a problem.

And now, when everything is still in its infancy and it's still evolving, I feel like maybe now is the time to apply nuance to it.

And if you just straight up ban.

Mass land denial in in games four, it's can only be four and above, I think that lots of new players are gonna kind of come up having never experienced that, and because it only exists at four and five, they're going to be discouraged from trying to play in a four or a five because they think it's all Stax decks and turn three I win combos.

And that's not true. We've all played.

CDH would I would venture a guess, and I'll bet you we've all played in a really really high powered game of Magic the Gathering, and I would say less than half the time you run into those things, except when you're playing CDCH it's a different animal. That's not I'm talking about. And even there, you don't run into tons of STACKX decks.

Yeah, yeah, you could say we've all played up to what would be the floor of CEDH, the ceiling the very highest end of bracket four in the uh what do they call bracket four? Again? Optimized?

Like you see all the thorical combos above and you look in the glass.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but.

You don't because you don't want to play blue and red blast in your deck.

Talking about a game changer rhetorical Yeah no, yeah. Stifle, nicely done. Stifles, good man. I got to play more stifles and decks.

I want to see void slime more often. I know that it's not very good.

I got void slimed the other day.

I love void slime. I love that car.

I got void slimed the other frickin' day. I was not happy.

Nor should you be void slimed? Man, that's awesome. That should be a typal.

Ooze card slimed. Okay, let's keep going. Let's keep going. I think we're making some some headway here. Intention important, very important, and maybe maybe the really smart coders and engineers at architect and space Cow Media can can be like, hey, maybe we could maybe we could put like a is this accurate checkbox or drop down menu like for your obecadec that's a two, or your norm deck that's a three.

Yeah, I've never I've only had that happen one time. Really, it did happen once.

But the reason it happened is because I was playing my Tracks a deck. Yeah, and you've seen my Attraction a deck with the physical cards I played.

Oh yeah, they're all it's textless, fucking crazy. Yeah.

And the guy was like, this deck looks insane, and he was like, can I see it?

He didn't want to look through it. You're playing, so like in between turns he was like scrolling through the deck list on his phone. Yeah, which I mean is like, well, now he knows everything in my deck, but who fuck?

Who cares? It's an ATTRACI deck. I'm pretty sure he can go to da trek Dom and find ninety percent of what you're playing, which which isn't slight against you. What I mean is is it's easy to go and say, hey, which cards? Which cards would be fucking good in a traxa like oh he's playing this card? Oh what cards? Do play with that card? On erek dot com and like you could do some detective work.

And he was going through like why are you playing?

Is what?

It's a creator and I have a crazy one. Yeah okay that makes sense? Yeah, okay, cool, Okay.

New Game Changers, new games. You've you've had some experience with New Game Changers?

Yep, I had one in my hands. That's the truth. Do you see yesterday's pre show if you want to hear the story, yep.

Do you think that the addition to the Game Changers is good? Bad? And I'll I'll get a little bit more granular? Is in the way that Do you think the old list when it was forty that like the original forty? Do you think that they were pulling their weight? Yes or no? Are they now? Yes or no? Is it better? Is it worse?

I think the initial list, and we talked about this last week, I think it was an I think it was intentionally small your conspiracy.

Yeah, I forgot about that.

In order to test the waters to see if a list like this would fly, and then when it did, as it should have, because I think it's a good idea. Yeah, I don't hate I don't hate that though, Like if that's you're a trial balloon, man, that's exactly you're calling a conspiracy. I think I was calling myself a conspiracy because people are like, brand, oh, they're not going to do that.

But yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's fine to send out a small list to say, hey, like, is this something that people are even receptive to? And then all the feedback that they that they claimed they got was man, we want more of this, give us more, and they're like, oh fuck, we had all these other cards in mind.

Anyways, Yeah, we were already doing that. Yeah they did it, and again it makes everybody look and feel good about what they're doing. So awesome.

And I think that the list again is better than the old list because it is more comprehensive. I think it's still missing a couple of things. I guess we could talk about this in a second. I think that car a car.

What the hell was it?

I talked about it in the story also because it gets you two creatures, and it's an enchantment and it's green.

Defense of the Heart.

Defense of the Heart I think should be a game changer. I would argue that it should be.

And it would be a game changer in the same vein that Natural Order worldly Tutor are game changers. It wouldn't be a game changer because it costs four and Diabolic Tutor isn't a game changer. Tooth and Nail not a game changer. Gets two creatures right into play, just like Defense of the Heart gets two creatures right into play, but you got a way to turn for it to happen. Yeah, So, like I could see why it would be and why it wouldn't be.

I can certainly see the argue against It's just I'm trying.

I was the good again. Watched the story yesterday.

I was trying to play it fairly hm and I ended up JENNI Sin's waving.

For fucking ninety.

That's good, Like, you can do some crazy shit with it. I played in Attract as well, so that I can find the sludge Monster and talks real.

So that I can kill all of your dudes immediately forever right.

Like, the next thing I wanted to do with it was fun opposition Agent and Mara Marilyn morn Song, I wanted to talks rill and.

Just because opposition agent means you control what they tutor for and you can play it. Yeah, And Marilyn morren Song says, skip your drawstep, tutor for a card, and it's.

Not skip your draw step, it's you can't draw cards.

Oh, you can't draw cards. Yeah.

So like anytime anybody goes to draw card, they lose three life and I tutor their deck and.

Play the card.

Yeah, I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah, So Defense of the Heart can do some fucking shit, and I think that it should probably be a game changer because of that. I don't know any other cards off the top of my head, but I think the list is as it sits right now, is very good.

With the game.

The aforementioned tweaks, I think they should make to those, like category things mass land denial and extra turn chaining. Maybe could use a little bit of finessing, but I mean, overall, I think that given them, it's still in its infancy. I think that it's doing a very good job. And I think because I've seen people using it, and I've used it. I think it's doing exactly what.

We needed it to do personally.

Huh, there you go. I'm reminded of Weird Harvest. It's a X spell, it's a sorcery costs green x Green xx, and it's each player searches for x creatures, puts them into their hand. So you could just go like Green whatever and search like everybody searches for two guys and you get them into your hand. I'm reminded of shared Summons Green Green three instant mind you instant search your

They won't go into seven dwarves either, no no no, no, no no no. But here's the thing with those, you go to your hand correct with Defense the Heart. They go right into play and people say, why does it only cost four?

What is happening?

It's an enchantment for Green three. At the beginning of your upkeep. If an opponent controls.

Three or more creatures, you sack Defense of the Heart, search your library for two dudes. Any two dudes and put them into play.

It's only like eleven bucks a gain.

Just because a car is expensive or cheap, it doesn't make it any less more or less powerful.

No, no, no, the price tag doesn't mean anything, correct.

Yeah, it and.

It's so good, especially if you're playing a token deck or somebody just three dudes. Like, it's just it's so good, and it can break a game open so quickly in any deck that can play it, you.

Know what I mean. Like, it would be very easy to.

Find anything and a creater hoof if you wanted to. Oh yeah, you can find Grass, the Ultimate Juggernaut and a crater hohof at the same time.

Make all my guys five three juggernauts that can't block, and then give them plus x plus x and trample ork x is the number of creatures I could Yes, and.

They can't be blocked by walls that came in handy yesterday when I was attacking into a wall of defenders and lots of them were walls and none of them could block by juggernauts.

Yeah, you were attacking into a wall of defenders, Yes, and some of them were walls.

Yes, and they couldn't block because Juggernaut. There's a juggernaut bitch right, it's awesome.

Oh man, okay, defense of the Heart. I could see a case for it, but.

I would make the case that maybe it should be there.

If that went on, I would say, oh, really, that feels kind of soft, because I think it does because it allows you to, like, you have to have a whole turn of the table, right, like a whole round of the table, and other things that require rounds of the table to be good. And I'm drawn a blank and I can't think any because Smothering Tithe is a good one. Yeah, uh is a game changer, I guess.

So remember when Smothering Tithe was first printed, You and I went back and forth on it, yes week, is this even a good card?

And you said, I don't think it's that good? And I said, I think this is fucking really good.

You know what? And then in twenty nineteen I made it my number one card of the year. Frick, you know what, I'm sticking to it. Producer Gary's laughing at me. I said it wasn't that good, And my logic as to why it's not that good is still sound. My logic is sound.

In principle in practice.

If smothering tithe came off the game changer's list, though, I'd say, oh, I get.

It when that first.

It's a hole on a second, just hold on a fricking second. Okay, months ago when we first started talking about this, and I said, how come not Notion Thief and how come Hull Breachers band? And how come not Opposition Agent and all this other stuff? And everybody's like, run, you're so stupid. Cards in hand aren't as good as treasure on the table? And I disagree, what like fucking hit that. I don't know commenters on YouTube they're smarter than I am, aren't they? No?

Apparently not.

Obviously they don't play legacy either if they think that cards in hand aren't fucking better than treasures on the table. I say, unbanned Haull Breacher, and everybody's like, oh my god, no. And I say, make Notion Thief almost the exact same fucking card, make it a game changer or ban it, and everybody's like, oh my god, no, you're so stupid, right, And uh man, what I'm applying that same kind of

I wouldn't hate that I have some.

I have one, I have three. It got banned and I took it out of a deck. And here's another good indicator that I've I've kind of warmed up to this idea. As an enfranchised and exclusive Commander player only commander. I don't play legacy. I play very little limited limited limited.

If you will, Yeah, limited can fuck off. I wasn't sad when Hallbreacher got banned.

Either.

I was sad when Jeweled Lotus got banned, and I know we're not talking about Jewel Lotus, but it is an indicator. Would I be sad if Defense of the Heart got banned? No, but I have an emotional reaction to that, saying like what the fuck why? And that's the same emotional reaction to Jude Lotus being banned, but the opposite direction, right, And if I'm that polar in either direction, I don't think it should be banned or on the Game Changer's list, like oh my god, no,

And of course we're not talking about banning Defense of the Heart.

No, Absolutely, putting it on the Game Changers list, no, But I'm comparing it in the same vein and at the same man of altitude as something like smothering Tithe. Yeah, and like Hull Breacher and Notion Thief.

I would say it changes games as much as a smothering Tithe. I would say that.

And again, I think that smothering Tithe on the Game Changers list is kind of soft. I think that it's probably shouldn't be there, and I'm the one that argued that the card was really fucking good. But I think it's that good.

I think that Defense of the heart's even softer because I don't get anything out of Defense of the Heart on player two or three or force turn like I do with Smothering Tithe. Yes, I do get something if you don't pay. I do get something if you do pay, because you're like, I get something either way.

That's my argument. You win no matter what. Money, you win, no matter what. And the Defense of the.

Heart is you win if you get back to your turn.

Yeah what if you What if I have Defense of the Heart and you go Wrath of God? I don't, oh, and then.

You just a timewalk myself, Although haven't I've been in those games where like, yeah, you go Defense of the Heart and then a Wrath of God. You're like, idiot, try a rebuilding and then you just like you're amassing and they're afraid to go above three creatures.

Because I don't hate that.

I don't hate that, right, So I've seen those games. I've seen it.

That's resource management.

And I've seen magic change a game of magic the gathering right, Well, yeah, you.

Could argue that any card changes a game of magic.

That's true, but game change is the one that you're supposed to play around, right, like they change the game and that you the game revolves. Aren't like a primeval type.

Bro I two islands untapped, you're playing around that? Yeah? How come islands aren't banned?

Because islands aren't what's doing it? The counterspell is, and banning counterspells is outrageous. Putting counter spells on the game changers list is outrageous.

But here we are but free ones.

Fuck free ones?

Oh yeah, you think that's often None of them are free. I suppose none of those cards, specifically, say free countertard, none of them, None of them, the best one of them all force of will that requires you to pay a life whatever, it's a fucking life and a specific blue card out.

Of your hand.

When did you become me?

I've always been you.

You're Rando and I'm Brian. I know it's right. I don't have an issue with You've come a long way, sir.

I am perfectly aware that the free counterspell is like the backbone of what makes legacy one of the most gest formats that exist.

That's why it is what it is, former.

Course of will.

Define the format for its entire existence, yes, sir, and I don't think that it would define a format like Commander in the same way because one counter spell in most cases isn't.

Going to Oh no, of course, it doesn't blow a game up.

It's just it's not. And I don't think that having all the free counters on there is. I think it's kind of spineless, if I'm honest, because it's people getting.

Fucking butter that you couldn't blow up my seven Manda command, my seven man of Commander.

Did they put mana drain on the game changers list? Not yet, not yet yet.

They will they will.

It's free, but my opponent has to cast something costs more than too.

Exactly, But it will be. Do you think it will be?

Do you think that they'll take force will off because they were talking about that.

No, no, no, they won't.

They don't do the swapper a freaking Eiffel Tower tag team would whatever.

You call it, the space dock. They will not. No, they will not.

I think that they do.

They will not dock, though I don't.

Think I want I want freaking.

As much as I just said I think that the Game Changer's list is great, and it is and I think it does its job and it does.

I think that there.

Are some cards on there because salt. I think there's some people are salty about certain cards and that's why they're on there.

That's why Guya's Cradle is on there. But the creature that's a Guya's Cradle is not, or the other card that.

Flips over into a better Guya's Cradle and puts a creature.

Into your hand.

Yeah, but they're slow. Not they're slow. They don't happen on turn one of the land. I'm not arguing about game Changer.

I just thought of this guyas Cradle on turn one is a bad play because you don't have a creature.

What if I play all the zero drop Cheerio creatures?

Brandle, your deck is stupid, so are you? Then you're an idiot? Do you think I'm not afraid of you?

Do you think okay when you say somebody's butt hurt. That's why free counter spells are on the game Changer's list.

I think, strictly my opinion.

I don't think that there's anybody on the Commander format panel or internally in Watsy, who has a hand in this decision? Game changers decision. I don't think that anybody is that shortsighted. You don't think just to say, oh, I've been blown out in Commander by Force a Will too many times for for like, I don't think that like anybody is that naive.

That's literally why they bants. That's okay, no reason.

No, it isn't. No, it isn't. Let's stay off of Joe lotus from it. Do you think that and this is this is dangerous territory to get into when arguing. Do you think that they think players don't like that? Does the Commander format Panel and Watsy think people don't like to play against Force a Will? Yes? I love playing against force Will?

Yeah?

Am I the oddity?

No, we do.

I think the established players and players, once they gain enough experience, once they've had the do the thing phase, right, because everybody loves to do the thing.

Yeah, to do the thing phase is the phase I think where you have the most trouble with Force of Will and its.

Friends precisely, and then once you've moved up Okay, okay, I'm leveling up my game a little bit.

I've cast team at dragon Storm like a hundred times.

It's time for me to move into the four bracket where I have to worry about man and man of denial and extra turn chaining and all that stuff.

And I know that it's going to happen because that's magic the gathering.

And in situations like that, I think that players eventually come to a point where they're looking for a game that has those really sneaky interactions that you have to play around how many how many.

Cards do you have in your hand?

Asking how many cards you have in your hand is the same as looking at somebody's board state and seeing they have two open islands. It's the same thing because you're playing around the exact same card. And I think there's a point where an established player, players played for a long time, looks for that. But I think that I'm not saying about the panel, but I am saying maybe a little bit.

If there's watsa influence on the panel, I.

Would suggest that they would prefer to cater to the I want to do the thing crowd, because that's who they're printing cards for right now. That's why you could in assistent stuff exists right For.

Sure, you could infer that there are more people in magic because it's boomed over the last four years. There's more people in magic with less than four years experience, then there are people with more than four years experience. Now is it four years, is it five years? Is it two years? I don't know. I'm just picking a number and just saying there's more people with less experience less experience than there are people with more experience. Sure, arbitrary.

Yes, I want the game to grow as big as it can be because I love it and I want everybody to play it exactly.

I want Maggie to play. I don't want Gary to play it. I want everybody plays games.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if Gary could play, Meggie could know. If we want that, we I mean, we have to be on board with this, but maybe our interest is not the exact same thing. Is what the Commander format panel and Watsie assume the general player base. His interest is. And I will say this too. I just listened to the Command Zone the other day, Rachel and Jos Josh Lacroix. We're talking about like this was our information that we presented and we advocated for wats

We love you guys by the way, you do a hard job. Oh, nobody should ever threaten to kill you or your family. No public service message to everybody out there.

Also a magic players like playing against free counters. I'm saying that and saying it with a not straight face, makes it like I'm joking and it's not true.

But it is, But it's true. There is a level where I firmly believe that people look for.

It and then look forward in liking it. Different things though, and and the other thing about it is nobody's ever gonna say that they like it. It's like it's like the random guy who likes feet. Nobody's gonna admit that they like feet.

You're either tits or ass unless you're in the nation, in which case it is totally fine. We're not gonna shame you.

And if you're somebody that I still haven't ran into anybody, and I'll bet you we know somebody. Playing against free counter spells is like playing against the guy who likes feet. Yeah, and you know what, you don't have to admit admit it because I just did it for you, not that I like feet. See see trap myself, I fucking trap myself.

It's like it's just adding an extra layer of complexity to the game.

And if you want to have free counter spells on the game changer list, to make them a category like mass land denial.

Oh, I like that idea, Right, that's a good idea. If it's three counter spells are their own category, they're not game changers.

Yeah, and I would suggest that that would be a better.

Position to do it. That doesn't do it, That just puts them in brackets four now instead of in bracket three. I could play three of them. Yeah, I suppose I could play three of them in three and three of them and four, four of them and four. I can't play any of them in two, whether they're game changers or not.

You can't now, You're right if you can't now anyway, I could play foil, that's true, could play Days also true.

Fuck I got hard cast dazed one time. A few Joela is playing my deck and dazed meet my own shit. Fucking terrible, uh see terrible playing against free counter spells. See, but only when it was my own thoe.

But it makes you a better player, and it like it is it. I hate to say that because it sounds like I'm condescending, and I'm not. It's just it's an extra level of complexity to a very complex game, and I think that at a certain level people are looking to get into that environment, and that's where the free counter spells live. You shouldn't play them in fucking two.

Now.

If you have a one where every spell counters aspell dot deck.

No every spells, free theme deck, everything's a zero drop that that deck would be a good deck to have your guys cradle in. You're one game changer. If you get one, and then you take the free counter spells off like mac mac attack, he's got.

You didn't even need land. Everything's free.

Hell yeah, only MDFC. We built that deck zero land up on the Commander Cooko YouTube channel. Mac Attack has a deck. Every deck is every every card has something to do with one. I want to make the deck everything has something to do with zero. A guy's cradle in it.

You know what you could do with that?

Though?

You could just play the biggest, beefiest, strongest beaters. What does what to do with zero? Because it makes your life towards zero? Right, that's you can justify anything with a good.

Yeah we did it. Oh yeah, okay, so this is what I've come come to realize. Ok So we don't get too long in the tooth Producer Gary falls asleep.

Okay, he's wired.

He's wired, seventeen cups of coffee, he's peede and pooped like six times today, three times in the toilet even yeah, defense of the heart, ban it, that's what I heard from you. No ban it, change mass land denial completely. Okay, play all of it that you want, Guy's cradle and all of the things that do guyas Cradle stuff except for Guy's Cradle. Ban them all except for guys Cradle banon, but don't don't ban it. Okay. That was completely clear,

We've been very clear on that.

Yes, everything else, Yeah, good intentions or bad intentions, as long as you have intentions, as long as it does you have intentions.

Even if you have bad intentions, just say that.

Actually, yeah, that's great for chaos decks.

This is my deck that's designed to make you scoop. Actually, yes, just say that to somebody.

I have had people say that to me. And you know what, that's better than playing your chaos warp and your confusion in the ranks and your warp world and your this and you're that and describe, well, no, it's yeah, but it's not that bad because it wins, because it actually frickin' winses. Okay, And I've been sitting and playing Magic for twenty five minutes, and I've had my lands tapped and blown up and confused and ranked and warped and worlded, and it's like, how does your deck win? Oh?

No man, that's one of the agency intention is when you're building decks. But remember, regardless of somebody else's intention, you have the agency to say no, I'm not into that.

Oh you can.

I don't want to do that, and if they insist, then you can off. There's hundreds of there's hundreds more magic players out there that you can go play with, Go play.

With them, or vote with your feet this yeah, especially the foot people out there. Yeah. Uh. For anybody who comes back to that and says, well, I don't have a local game store, I only have one playgroup. I don't know what to do. Literally play online. You could worst case scenario, play brawl on arena. It has to

If your bodies, we did a whole episode and if you have a body that's the fucking griefer, what do you do?

With them.

You pound him into the dirt until he stops it. Yes, because three people escalating against one in magic will work in real life. Don't don't do that, Nan, That's that's very cruel. But in magic, grind them into dog meat until they figure out, Wait, maybe I'm.

The problem and them into dog meat. Right, that's it. Yeah, if if I wanted to get good friends do if I wanted to get dog meat the card, where would I go and do it?

I'll bet you'd have a really good chance of finding a Fusion Gaming online dot com and you could pay less for it by using special promo code CCO Nation save yourself five percent off that your game changers.

There's things that should be game changers, your extra.

Turns, your mass Land denial, and all your Final Fantasy needs coming up.

Yeah, and you're gonna need it.

Here's here's the thing. When they unban Hullbreacher and print it in Final Fantasy, you could get it there. Oh man, I hope they put Band and Commander cards into Final Fantasy just to troll you. I hope you open up Final Fantasy Hull Breacher, me too and Jeweled Lotus. What if they put it in there?

Because they were like, oh yeah, it wasn't banned when we printed the set. All that happened the one of one, the four crystals, but it's a jewel lotus. Oh it's the four crystals, one of one. Host Malone still give me two million dollars for it, I hope.

So because it was one of one, I hope, so you would, Hey, I hope so definitely would.

He's post Malone, that's what he does. Speaking of Vegas and post Malone, I think he's playing there this weekend. That's fun.

Cool.

So if you're down there, you should. You probably should have gone and seen him. The moral of the story is you should. Also you should check out Fusion Gaming online dot com. Thanks for being here on Commander.

Cookout Podcast, Grab yourself a pile of bones, and we are going to be back next week with another super exciting episode of Commander Cookout Podcast.

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