He's the Comical Podcast, Episode four eighty on brand Om. Here's Ryn and we're gonna bust some more brackets and change the game now in our tame. Hey Ryan, We're back for yet another whirlwind adventure. How you doing good?
What is going down?
The whole ton is going down. We're gonna revisit our topic from last week when we talked about the new bracket system that's in it's beta being tested out a few days ago at magic Fest Chicago. I'm sure by now Real Life US has had many updates on how it worked and things that the members of the nation that we're there would like to change, and we'll talk about that maybe on the pre show next week or possibly on the show next week, depending on how things go.
But before we can get to any of that stuff, we have to thank our official business, Daddy's Fusion Gaming Online dot Com are your source for all your gaming needs, where you can use special promo code c CEO holiday to save yourself five percent, save yourself five percent off all the things that you're gonna buy anyway. You're gonna get it anyway, you might as well spend less money.
Own it very much.
So we also have to thank Pilo Bones Brewing Cool. They are the second coolest thing to come out of Regina, as well as being the official beer sponsor for c CEO Sidewalks Slam Theason three we'miering February twenty eighth right here on YouTube.
Oh man, so many things whole mild. Yeah, Magic Con Chicago, We're not there. That sucks.
Yeah, that does kind of sud I want another upside down pizza now that we've talked about it. I wanted one.
That's the first thing I did want. One second thing big Thanks to producer Gary the damn Media Media Media Studio Network Studio.
Yeah, yep, we wouldn't be here if it wasn't for them.
Very much so, and links to Duffer and AB Media in the show notes below wherever you find the show. Pile of Bones. We drank some after we played Sidewalk Slam the other day and it's going to be a great episode. Funny intro. All the players got their own little intro. I'm excited to show it off. I'm excited to talk about with people in the nation. The play mistakes because there was a bunch of them right in
a row at the end of the game. None of which actually really affected the outcome of the game, because how it ended is still how it ended.
That's because of what happened happened.
But when I tell you and show you where they were, you're like, oh, God, damn it, Oh Jesus Christ, Oh we're so stupid, because there was three of them right in a row yep. And Editor Tyler worked on it and pointed them all out and was like, yeah, it didn't actually matter. So Feb twenty eight, watch on the Discord, watch on the Patreon feed, and all the socials. Of course, big thanks to the patrons. Yeah, Patreon dot com, Slash
CEO podcast. We wouldn't be here without you guys. And we have started talking about and a little bit planning the next few CEO experiences. We've got for sure on the horizon. Magic Con Las Vegas, yeah, our favorite one ever. Oh, we've got magic Con Atlanta in September.
Yeah, which is super cool.
We've been scoping out flights from our part of Canada and it looks like it's gonna be relatively affordable for us. We've been looking at face to face games, tour stops, the two and the three day stops. We've been looking at Red Deer, We've been looking at Montreal, We've been looking at They just had Ottawa a couple of weeks ago that I missed Atawa. Yeah, and then in November, way at the end of the year, there's Calgary, which we always do go to and have a gay old time.
Why can't they have Calgary when it's nice so we can go to the zoo. You probably wouldn't go to the zoo, but I would go to the zoo because I like the zoo.
Well, usually wherever we stay is kind of close to the zoo. It wasn't the last time because it was winter and we just went back to the to the house. Yeah, right, But Calgary always a great time and of course always great to be on the Canadian tour with Fusion is there and face to face and they put us up and we have a great, great time. We do lots of giveaways and stuff.
They put us up and then they put up with us, which is great mostly.
The second one, yes, yes, because we turn it into a CEO experience, which I am in the discord. Gonna start a Vegas planning channel pretty quick here because that is one of the main and probably best benefits to becoming a Patreon supporter.
See we missed last year too, so you'd better be prepared for a bender and a half baby. Yes. And when I say bender, of course, I mean we're gonna drink some beer and play magic like fucking nerds. Yes, and we'll probably eat some pizza.
And everything there closes so early.
Like if you want to go eat someone in Las Vegas, yeah, like the casinos are open and.
What you high it never closes.
But if you want to go and like sit down and have like a burger the size of your fucking head, you got to go before eight o'clock or the shit's closed.
Ah. You know what, I'm not super high on going and standing in line to go to like the restaurants on the strip. I really like finding the places off the strip and or like I've done in the past but has never come to fruition except for maybe this time it will where we book a venue to play after hours because you know, like sometimes the hall closes or everybody wants to leave the hall to eat, Yeah, and then they don't want to catch a cab back.
So it's like, hey, mister restaurant where you have awesome food? And like one hundred different beers on tap. If I bring like twenty nerds that want to eat and drink beer, can we play magic cards on your tables until three? They're like, oh, absolutely, we would love for you to come and do that. We'll have specials and this and this and this, and it's like, hey, that sounds like a perfect idea to do. Coco experience, hack openings, make little shorts videos, oh man.
And drink beer and I can take an hour and a half to eat a single burger.
No, you can't.
And if you think that I'm making that up, I've done it.
You need to eat by yourself, not be distracted, and don't even eat in the same cities that I'm in. Why because I can't stand eating with you. Why could you take an hour and a half?
Stee one, Well, I just carry it around with me when I change tables.
If I see you doing that, I'm gonna splat it out of your hand onto the ground and make you pick it up with your ass cheeks.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Shall I shall? You can see it on YouTube if you're watching them, which should be there. It is. Okay, Well, here's the thing.
Do you think Joe made me into Red Hulk for that.
One, because like Green Hulk or Bust Joe.
Yeah, Hulk sequel came out and they didn't have Hulk in it.
Oh yeah and Red Hulk. Yeah, that's it. Okay, last thing before we talk about game changers and stuff. Okay, you and I are deliberating on the final design for CCEO sleeves. Yes, coming up. I want to launch the Kickstarter in what's the in March?
March is the next month coming up?
Yes, sir, and I'm excited. I want to give people, like I want to make stuff that people are interested in, and it's been years of people saying, hey, when's sleeves, when's sleeves? Well, so now sleeps frickin' now. So once we get it live and you know how people do like countdowns before kickstarters start, We're going to put those links out there and everybody can follow or do whatever you do with Kickstarter. I never knew, but like I
guess people like shop on Kickstarter. What Yeah, Like they just go there to see what's available, like what new games are stuff? Can I like look at or follow to see if it's going on? Huh yeah, blew my.
Mind and that must be rough because like you go and you want this big shoppings, You're like, oh, this would make a great present for so and so and such and such or such and such. It doesn't show up for two fucking years because you know manufacturing.
And yeah, I'm looking to run the kickstarter for a month and have it delivered or at least out for delivery by May.
That means you'll have it for when we see in Vegas.
Yes, bonus points if I can just give tea in Vegas and save on the exorbitant shipping prices from Canada.
Ooh, but then we have that idea.
Yeah, I like that idea.
I like that idea.
I just had that idea.
I had the idea. Come on, this is me contributing. Shamn' yes, straighten my shirt business.
I'll give you that, okay business, Brando. How do you feel after you've spent at least one day at the LGS talking about playing with or modifying decks or playing against modified decks as a result of Commander Brack and Game Changers.
I have altered nothing about my life. Oh and uh, you know what I think telling everybody that my bellow deck is one which it technically is is funny, yes, But I think overall, once we got passed that my deck is one conversation, I think that we actually did have some very enlightening conversations about people. I learned something about myself. Oh my boy, Thomas, and I'm gonna tell you about just a second. Sure, but I kind of
think that it works. I think that the bracket discussion and especially the game changer list needs some refining, but I think they're actually onto something here. I really do think that this is It sounds oh, it's just like the power scale every day. It's free, but it's I really do think that this is a as far as a tool goes. I actually like using it, and I think it's pretty good.
Because there's actual rules. It's not just subjectively what do you think about, like how it fits into the power range of your decks. This deck is my one, this duck's my ten, ah, this duck's my seven. No, there's actual hard and fast rules. Now, we're not going to get into it because we talked extensively about it last week for like an hour and a half over two
different episodes. We're going to talk about our own experiences now that we've I've made some deck changes and really re theorized a few of my decks, and you've played and talked with the CCIO Dude Bros drank beer about it.
Hell yeah we did.
Yeah. So okay, what did you learn about yourself from Thomas of Sidewalk Slam.
Fame Thomas of Sidewalk Slam Fame Yep, Fame, Yep, which you can see February twenty eight Fool Very Good on this YouTube channel. He was talking about what makes a one a one and he said, Okay, they're more jankie and meant to be fun. And like, in my head, I'm thinking all decks are janky and meant to be
fun if you build them to be and fun. Yes, But then he hit me with the line that I also heard a few other creators using when the brackets first came out, and that's they're not built with a way to win in mind.
H It's a strange thing too, And I'm.
Gonna tell you I don't like that. So if anybody ever sits down with me says this is my war or.
You don't like that, I don't like it.
Okay, So if somebody sits down across from you and they say this is my deck. It's a one, and you say, okay, well what does it do?
It?
Well, it just kind of plays things and doesn't really do anything. I don't want to play against that person.
I also don't think that that actually exists, Like why would agree? I don't agree with it doesn't have a way to win.
Like why would you build a deck that isn't designed to win a game of magic? The gathering, like, why are you doing that? Does it have interaction in it? Is it going to prevent me from not winning or from winning the game while you go about your business of not winning? You know what I mean?
Like?
What are you doing here? Are you wasting my time?
You know what's ironic that? You know what? Oh? Very much? So you know what's ironic and kind of funny? Tell me is that when brackets first came out, everybody was like, oh, what's the different? True four and five? Why is there a four and a five? Why is four and five right?
Why isn't CD it's its own fucking format, all the stuff right, Like it has been for years at this point, and now that we're two or three weeks into it, I'm hearing all the conversation and discourse about level one A like, it's even gonna matter y and b man, maybe if you have to ask what a one is, just like if you have to ask what a five is, you don't have a one.
It's not a one. You don't have a one.
I got a one that is specifically made out of cheap cards that I know are gonna get wrecked, and I don't care because I'm gonna play them on the floor with CEO people at a magic con that have all of the Lord of the Rings cards that I can fit in that aren't worth money. Like that's the stipulation. They need to be cheap and they need to be
from the Lord of the Ring set. I do have a wind con in it, though, of course I've got big creatures because there's some big orcs and trolls, and it does have an aristocrat some theme as a backup way to just get the life totals going down, right, Like, obviously the deck functions, and I didn't make any changes to that deck as a result of brackets coming out. I had one of the ones.
I barely even changed my mindset with the brackets, if I'm honest, Oh, like I went through. I took one game change out of one deck to again make it a one, and during the game I won the game. For the record, Now it's not a brag, but I did win a game with a one against a three and a three and a two, and uh, that's not
a how is that a one? And this deck it's vanafar Uz Lady from Murders at Carliff manor every card in it, every creature in it is either like a colorless cheerio creature that I can just play for free, or it's either manifested or morphed or cloaked or dreaded or whatever.
So it's like facedown deck.
Yeah, so they're colorless and Vanifart makes them bigger, which is fun, and I think that that's pretty cool. It's a super janky way to play cards. I don't have any of the tokens, so I keep forgetting which ones are which? Yeah, can I target that one? Is gonna have ward? Is it a real creature? When it dies? That go to your hand? What the hell is this? And it's it's garbage, right, But like having those conversations is just it? It helps, man, I'm telling you, I'll.
Ask you a couple of questions. Okay, not having the tokens doesn't make your deck less powerful. No, that's that's certainly something to keep in mind.
It it's just a reminder thing like some of these have ward now and you can't tell and oh my god.
Yeah, obviously all of the requirements to be a one, or specifically to not be a two or three are in place for you to call that deck a one. So by the letter of the law, it's a one. Yep, with your intention your intentions for the deck is to not optimize, face down or zero ability creatures. There's no intention to optimize or to make it better. Now, is the deck less more or the same power level as a pre con It would get hammered by a modern
modern precon. Okay, that's a great parameter because level two core is the power level of a modern pre cones. Now, I'm going to do something taboo that we never freaking do and we've very specifically not done it and made jokes about it. But now that we don't have to be a slave to this anymore, what power level from one to ten would you put that deck on now that we don't have to use that system anymore.
Seven. Every deck is seven. Gotcha? I gotcha? Gotcha?
Okay seven, and thereby demonstrating why this system is better than that.
Precisely we did it. We just we showed everybody.
Okay, so it's a one. Now. I've got a couple things that I want to either clarify, reiterate, or maybe bring to light for the first time okay since we've started talking about this, sure, And the first one is about honesty. Yes, honesty, we talk about it all the time. Don't be a dick, don't be an asshole, be honest with your opponents, don't trend scumback anybody that ain't what I'm talking about here.
I heard Corey yesterday. Actually he sat down with three guys that he hadn't played with before. One of them I know that you've played with and the last time you were there you played with them was the guy with the birthmark oh yeah, yeah, yep, good dude. And two other dudes I'd never seen before. And they were talking.
They were like talking power level and what their decks do or whatever, and Corey was like, look, we're not playing for stakes here, Like, there's no reason to be shifty about what your deck does, just tell me and we'll play a game.
Yeoh, I like that.
And it's like, yeah, man.
Yeah, be honest, and that's important when you're talking to others. But specifically, what I mean is it's tough to be honest with yourself. And my note is it's tough to be honest about your deck's power level, both when the deck isn't as good as you think it is, yeah, and when it's better than you think it is. And that should dictate a where you tell people it falls into, like what bracket falls into, but also how you tweak,
in tune or dtune the deck. So with a few of my decks, okay, I was like, man, I don't think that this deck is actually that good, and it's got one or two game changers in it, immediately putting it in bracket three. And I'm like, this deck ain't Bracket three. It barely wins at my F and M when I'm playing against like brand new players that have never played that, who've modified their pre cons and made it worse, Like this deck is.
Not good, yeah, they make their deck worse. Yeah.
So it's like, I can't in good faith say that this deck's a two because it's got two or three game changers and a bunch of tutors in it. So I'm gonna fucking take those cards out and make my deck an actual two no game changers, no redundancy in the tutor slot, sure, no early combos, all this stuff. And I'm honest about my deck not being very powerful. So it almost makes me feel like, why try Why include these cards that obviously give players like a sour
taste or a bad experience. When one card out of ninety nine isn't going to move the needle, now I get it. At the same time, Well, if the one card is not going to move the needle, why do I have to take it out? Yeah, because that's what the rule is. Now, that's what the bracket rule is. And if one card's okay, it's two cards okay, it's three, okay, it's four okay. Because now we're not talking about is
my deck a two or three four game changers? Is the difference between my deck being a two or three or a four and now I'm jumping up two brackets. So instead of running one or two in my deck that obviously sucks, I'm just gonna run freaking nune and it's a two.
And it's a two.
And it's a two. And I don't have to say that it's a two based on modern pre cons because it ain't as good as modern precns. It's a two based on the life cycle of a pre con from twenty eleven twenty twenty five. It's a two.
It's a two.
It's two deuce, and it's easy shit two. It's easy shit.
Also also important, Yeah shit, it's a deuce. It's also important to say that every single one of my decks at this point has been considered in this way. And while some of them were like, oh, I'm gonna take this smothering tithe out of this deck, I'm gonna take this one ring out of this deck. I'm gonna put that smothering tithe then one ring into different decks that it's like, this deck's obviously better than a pre con and only has one game changer in it. Now it
has three, and it's still a three. My deck is now better. I got better card draw, I got better man of production. I'm putting my smothering Tithe in the deck that has the Enlightened Tutor and the Sarah Sanctum that combos to win. That's a three. Yeah, and it's got the exact amount of game changers it's allowed to have. It's got a redundancy of tutors, a lot of removal, some light stacks. This deck is very obviously better than a pre con.
Yes, and it's a three. Some of those pre cons, man, yeah.
I'll play against them. I'm not scared if they want to play up. They want to play up into three because they're running like the most powerful pre con. I'll play up.
I'll slap you down.
Yeah, that's it.
Make you feel like you're playing a zero.
So in this way of thinking, slow rolled me. In this way, I have changed four decks.
Wow, I've changed that one I told you about. And uh I actually added a chrome box that I opened it to Ralph.
Hey, yeah, there you go, which which chrome marks do you open?
I opened the yellow. I opened a borderless foil. Actually I hit it big.
Borderless foil from what set either drift?
Yeah?
Oh man, hey, hey we you and I did a Brandos and Ryan's box opening. Check it out coming up? I guess on a Friday or a Saturday, whenever, whenever Sidewalk slam isn't.
Yes, because we walk slam does take priority. We opened some pretty okay stuff.
We well it was my box, but you're opening it, so it's like, oh man, I probably could have done better, but uh some definitely commons and uncommons and rares that I'm going to play. Yeah, I got all the lands I needed. If I don't want to do yellow border.
Lands, which he does. So if you have yellow border Lands you don't want, get at your boy, hit me up.
And I definitely got some mega Foil hits. It's too bad. I wanted to trade all my mega hits in too, Like see if I can get another box now all my megafoil hits, I'm they go on a vehicle deck and I'm a freaking nerd.
So oh man, yeah that's the same way. Yeah exactly, so.
Yeah yeah, getting pounded on booster boxes it's basically what we do. So anyways, I got four x four deckx okay, Okay, I got shrewdfuss. I remember that one mushroom stamp guy. Ye, so mushroom stamp guy, the one ring okay out it was the only game changer, okay, And I says I'm gonna put a Sylvan anthem in that was the card I couldn't remember last week when a green creature entered.
Green creature doesn't say token skry one.
Scry one and all your green couruld you get plus one plus one.
Yeah, that's a good card.
That's a good card. Two mana. So I can play that a turn before my commander. It's gonna it's gonna like essentially act as a token doubler because my saperlings now deal two damage eats instead of one, and whenever they hit you, I make another one. So it's very good. It's a card advantage engine. If I can make ten tokens and scry ten ten times, that's probably gonna give me enough card selection to count as like card advantage.
You think, oh yeah, yeah, very much. And I've certainly played with that card. I played an Avy, and I play it in Tanna, yep, and it's.
Good in both very good. Okay, So I put that in. It's on curve, it's budget, and it allowed me to take a game changer out to make my deck a straight up to some early man A dorks which are susceptible to rats, and some mid game make tokens and some late game preposterous proportions and all my guys get plus ten plus ten March of the World loose stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, where it's like I got fifteen tokens and I had to work the whole game to make them.
Yep.
Now they're all eleven elevens. Everybody's taken sixty or whatever. Right, yep, yep my next one. Brian stout arm and.
I keep forgetting you have that deck?
Yeah, every time I play it, I'm like, oh, this is the last time.
Yep, I'm taking this up. Why don't you just saying it for years? Man, I think I would have dusted that deck years ago.
Dude, I keep I keep modifying it and playing it. The last time I played it, I pounded guys with.
It, like, absolutely destroyed people with it.
And I played it two times in the same night, and one time I almost won, and the other time I fucking just pounded guys shorts right up their butts.
Wow.
I don't know what that looks like or why I said that, But you ever got a weggie? Oh yeah, it's like a wedgie butt, but it looks because a fist was also. Yes, so I took smothering tithe out of that deck.
So now when you play your eight man things, you have to actually pay eight Yes, Now your deck was already a piece of shit. Is a smellier piece of ship? Yes? Nice?
Yes, But what I did is other upgrades that were just better, like card draw stuff or whatever that was just better. And I'm introducing a little bit of a giant sub theme, like giant creatures, because there's there's like a damage doubler from Caldheim that is, yep, just for giants. Bryan star Arms a giant.
Is that.
I've got a what's the what's the five drop that you tutor in equipment when you play him Stone Stone.
Here giants Stone the white yeah, yeah.
The white one.
Yeah.
And that lets me find my death render or my infect equipment. Right, And he's a giant giant. And there's a couple other ones like Inferno Titan. Sure, there's Giant har Harbinger's a giant tutor.
It's you added two tutors. Yes, So is the deck truly a two with that many tutors?
It is a two tur because those are the only tutors in it. I didn't I didn't add the Giant Harbinger yet. Okay, that's still in like the maybe pile as I find what else to cut. So it's got a stone here, giant to find a wind con sure. Yeah, and uh it's slow, but it's got a powerful endgame and it is capable of killing people in one hit, like if I do it, like if I damage double or damaged double by flinging a Malignis or a Sarah's Avatar.
Life total equal to your life.
Power equal to life total, then I fling it. Yeah, it's got the infect equipment on Brian. If I fling a ten.
Drop, you just die.
So it can do the powerful thing, but slowly.
Do you wish that cat was red? I wish Kaktar was red.
I wish Kaktar was red because he'd be going straight into the Brian Strout arm deck yep, and I'd be gaining ten thousand life when I.
I love that fucking card. I love it so much.
You know what I saw it? I saw that it was a Final Fantasy card. You can hear some of our initial Final Fantasy thoughts on yesterday's pre show. I saw it, I thought a I didn't know Kaktar was from Final Fantasy.
Yeah, you fool, Yeah, I'm an idiot.
Second thing is, I don't know if Brando's gonna love this or hate it.
I love it. I really like it. Yeah, I like it a lot.
I'm happy for you, and I liked it so many people like oh.
Bad and it's too good.
It's you Gia, Like, come on, guys, well it is you gioh But at the at the point of ten thousand, how is that any different than I don't know, fifty or one hundred, Like I don't.
Know g Off. Yeah, Thomas's boyfriend. I hope it's okay that I say that on the show Scandal. But he plays lots of legacy, so like the tuning and the fine he has a really good magic mind that way. Yeah, And when we were talking about this thing that's got ten thousand power, he's just like, what's the difference between ten thousand and one hundred? And the answer is basically nothing.
Bro, what's the differenween ten thousand and emer cool? When you've cracked, when you've cracked three or four fetch lands and I have an emoric cool And I hit you one time as if that might not like, if that doesn't kill you, puts you to one or two in legacy that is yeah, and you have to annihilate six. Like, how is this like if I go show and tell omniscience emmer cool, I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know, it's over.
He gets fine.
Yeah, and I think that that's it's just an arbitrary a large number on a fairly simple to deal with creature.
And no evasion. Yep, this is fine.
You're gonna give it Trammel immediately.
Oh yeah, it's like, what's the guy whenever you have a creature enter the battlefield, he double his power. I know, the one devilish valet. Yeah, every time creature ETBs, it's a creature fall double power. And everybody's like, what the fuck? Oh my god, you play five creatures in this guy's like eighty power, eighty and ten thousand. I don't know, it's the same that they feel like they're the same thing.
It's the same number, really, But yeah, I think that that character is fucking cool man. I'm excited to play him.
Yeah. I got two more decks and then we're gonna talk a little bit more about game changes es, the ball. This where my smothering tie is going. It's an enchantment. I play in light and tutor I play Sarah's sanctum. This is fine. It's already a three. It's the one that has the light. I wouldn't say stacks is too extreme of a word, but it's like, all damage dealt to me is zero. I can story circle or circle of protection myself, like I can lock you out of damaging me.
Yes. Uh.
It's got all of the removal that are enchantments, like make your guy a bug, make your guy a zero four, make your guy a land. All of those draw me four cards because I've got all the enchantresses enchantry. Right, So a deck's probably a three, ye, probably a three, and it's got three game changers in it.
Now there you go.
That's fine.
Sure.
In the final one, alenda, I cut something I don't remember what to add. Oh oh, es also has a ristic study, So alenda I cut something to add the one ring, and it only has two game changers. And this is where intention versus letter of the law comes in again, Like we talked about last week. Two game changers. But there are five or six tutors, probably too many to be a three.
I don't know, man, We're gonna talk about that later. We're gonna talk about why tutors are.
One of the tutors is an ursa saga which finds a soul ring. Find a soul ring, or in my deck a combo piece, an animation module which combos with a lenda. One of the tutors is a Inventor's fair the land that finds the same combo piece, right sure. And then there's a dtoots, there's a Rounscar Demon, and there's a Besiech the Queen. That's six tutors, lots of tutors. That's lots of tutors. And I don't specifically try to combo.
I try to do the value thing and always bring stuff back from the graved Like you've played the deck, it's impossible to beat. And here I talked about this one last on purpose because it feels like there's a lot of things in that deck that change the game. You You always talk about that deck being so resilient, that deck trying to get value out of literally every inch and corner of the game. It's got an Astionnaud's altar in there to make a ton of manna, not
a game changer. To play other things that also feel like game Changers, Exanguinate, Torment of Hailfire.
We talked about those last week.
Dead of the Debt LISS, which is the.
When they die they come back. No, isn't that.
That's debtors Now. Dead of the Debt LISS is the white Black Exanguinate times two. That one. It's like black black, white white X. Everybody loses X, you gain two X. Everybody loses two X. I gain two x. That one. When you sacrifice fifteen guys, everybody take thirty. That's enough, right, And it's got another. So that's like three or four. Feels like game changers that win out of nowhere. Yeah, and then it's got a fucking grave Pact. That feels
like a game changer, doesn't it? Because it changes the way that you play magic. Yeah, it's not necessarily an awesome card if I don't have creatures, but I built my deck around having creatures, so I do. But like Herobi Deaths Whale, Yeah, it changes a game of magic into something else. And I think that's what's important to differentiate.
And I'm gonna ask you about this when we got comments on last week's pre show and last week's episode, I would take this off and put this on, this off, this on a lot of I would put this onto the game Changer's list. Were cards that feel like they win out of nowhere. A Chroma's Will was mentioned. Exanguinate and Torment to Hailfire were brought up. Ashnaud's Altar and and for an Alter were brought up. Because it's like,
you're not doing intruder alarm. You're not doing anything fucking normal with that.
You're not doing anything fair with intruder alarm.
Nobody just absolutely intruder.
It's not in your es, is it.
No, it's blue? Oh yeah, oh no, No, it's not an estrad no because she she's no a creature.
Deck, but it's an enchantment it's see. Nobody nobody does that, Nobody plays it. This is my enchantment deck, and I nobody does that because it's cracked.
And that card will probably be good in that deck because it keeps creatures.
Tapped until somebody plays one exactly.
Another one is uh Seedborn Muse, skull Clamp. We saw those that just provide so much value, turnover, turn overturn. Those don't inherently change the game of magic. Seedborn mus You're probably gonna run out of cards, skull Clamp you might run out of guys right right, and both of those are easy to destroy. Like, I don't know, we're not getting into that. Yeah, but the feels like game changers along with the tutors makes my Alenda deck feel like a four even though technically it only has two
game changers in it. Yeah, and then and then yeah exactly, and then what is what is too many tutors and what is the intention of those tutors? And two of my tutors that are very narrow are specifically in there to find combo pieces that feels quite pointed. When you're quite pointed, it feels like you shouldn't be at the two or three category. I concur so.
So I was thinking about this, and I was talking to Aiden, and I think g off about this last night. Where when you look at my decks, I play tons of tutors in mind, not tons, but like I'll have one or two and basically every deck that I play, And the reason I and.
Some some decks you play tutors are not sparse correct whatever sparse means?
Yeah, whatever that means, Like they're they're fucking there, and I play them because I don't really play, for example, pay to lose to draw to Why would I pay two to draw to random piece of shit cards and I could pay two at the same speed and just find the thing.
Thing that you need. Yeah. And also I'll add to that because I know you and I know your decks. You also aren't the guy that's going to tutor for a combo piece. I don't know if I can remember a time where you weren't playing nice C d H where you combo one think on last season Sidewalk Slam when you tried to snoop combo. Was the last time I saw you combo? See, And when you're not trying
to do the combo thing, tutors become less important. They just become like a second copy of air quotes the best card in your deck, or a second copy.
Of the thing I need, the thing you need right now, Yeah, which is kind of what I play them for. And I think that intention and that's this is what I'm saying. Like, when you look at the list of Game Change, there's so many tutors, and they're mentioned in the brackets like what makes a decka.
It's redundancy there or the not redundancy thing, the redundancy. No, that's the same one.
That's the same word. You just said it a bunch of times.
Yeah, the redundancy with the list and the rule.
Yes, And I feel like the tutor thing specifically, I think that's the most intention based thing in here.
Making get the hardest to quantify.
The absolutely the most difficult thing to quantify as a hard and fast rule, because if you're like, well, in the examples we just gave Ryan's playing tutors to find a combo piece to win the game, whereas I'm playing tutors because I don't want to just draw a card.
I want to find the thing that I need right then, be it a piece of removal or I don't have any creatures, I have no cards in my hand, so I need something right And I think that that well round or you're running five tutors in your deck, yeah, but I use it to find cultivate because you're not
a combo player exactly. So like and I feel like that I'm not saying I deserve special consideration, but I think that when you're gonna put it into a hard and fast rule like they have, having too many tutors immediately makes your deck into a four or a five. That's I don't know, have to say, disingenuous is the
wrong word. But then you got to sit down and we got to go back to the whole rule zero thing where it's like, listen, I'm running tutors instead of drawsbells because because I don't want to just draw three more islands.
Yeah, and man, and that's hard to quant if we have we have a hard and fast rule that dictates how many game changers we have, and some of the tutors are also game changers. There's an overlap there. Why do we not just have this? This is a legitimate question. This isn't me being facetious or like being hyperbolic or whatever. Why don't we have a hard and fast number, a definition of what tutors being sparse means. Could it be two,
could it be three? I don't know. I have I have a power level or a bracket two deck that has three tutors in it, but no game changers. And what's ironic is tutors. If you're tutoring for a wrath of God or removal spell, those change the game. Yeah, those change what's happening in the game. Where as a tutor for a combo piece like I'm running in my lend Of deck that's going to end the game.
Which is also changing it, but.
It is, it is, and I think the difference is I'm automatically declaring and saying that deck exists at a four, you better expect that if I tutor, I'm going to try and end the game.
Yes, I'm gonnay and win with that.
That's the difference. You're playing tutors maybe in decks that exist at two and three where they should be sparse, and if they're not, maybe this is how I interpret it. If they're not sparse, they also don't win the game. And that goes back again to intention, which is hard to quantify because there's no hard and fast rule. And if we want it to be a tool that's used,
I think it might be worth testing. I'm not going to say beneficial or better, but worth testing and saying this is how many tutors and this is what tutor means. Because I saw so many people on Twitter saying is cultivated Twitter is rampant growth of Twitter? What in my what about in my monogreen Landfall deck when I run seven different cultivate and rampid growth variants, what like are are those tutors? Because they're furthering my strategy at that point?
You know what card isn't on this list? That fucking should be crop rotation. Crop rotation, good crop rotation is a hell of a card.
You think corp rotation should be on the list?
Absolutely, I do.
What did you say last week for what should be on Green's list?
A great hoof greater hoof?
Yes you did, because that is a that is a well and you're falling into the I think trap. That's a win the game card like a Chromo's memorial. Yes, Creater Hoof and a Chromo's memorial do the same thing.
You just win the game kind of Yeah.
Trample to everybody, make everybody huge, or flying to everybody, give them all double strike. They do the same thing. YEA crop rotation changes what's currently happening, and you can use it offensive or defensively, or to further various kinds of strategies. Now, does that add a redundancy to the list. If I'm crop rotating for a Sarah Sanctum or a Guy's cradle, we already have those cards on the list. So why do is corop rotation need to be on there, which raises the.
Question why are tutors on there in the first place.
It when we already have the tutor should be sparse when we don't have a definition of wars correct. I don't know that sounds kind of complaining, but I think I think more than anything, we're just trying to talk through it.
And this is a like again, this is the thing that's in its beta infancy. Again, as people are listening to this, with the exception of producer Gary.
Welcome to Magic. Welcome to Magic, Gary.
So none of us have been to Chicago or know anything about Chicago, but everybody who's listening this, we'll have probably hurt something from there. Right it worked, and maybe like maybe it'll come back. You know, we're gonna change Instead of having all these tutors on the game changer list, we're gonna put like a number of tutors in each bracket. Maybe maybe we'll sprinkle like how many game changers you
can play across your decks. Maybe we'll add some different cards on here, you know, like that could be the gimmick. I'd imagine there's gonna be some people who have some some pull probably walking around with maybe some band cards in their decks, maybe to see if they might end up on a game changer list in the future. You know what I'm saying. I'm man, I'm so excited to play on Manocrypts again, you guys.
I'm so excited to play Jewel Lotus and Bruvac twelve game changes. Maybe when I found out that testing and there was gonna be an exact area for exactly what we're talking about in Chicago, I had that disappointment in fomal feeling all over again, missing CECO Nation, missing the CEO experience, missing.
Like dropside down pizza yea man's.
Own right, like missing all of that aside, when I found out that I could have like meaningful and really deep theoretical magic conversations with other people who really care about it. No, not discounting what we're doing here, but we do this all the time. If I can do this with people who have different opinions than you and those or WATSI people or people on the Commander what's it called again, I don't care Brick the Commander group,
the Commander Posse. I don't Yeah, man, I I wish that I could have been there and just talk, whether it be cards or intentions. I would love to see some kind of line or line graph or bar graph saying like this is as you increase in game changes, your deck becomes this, and how having tutors in your deck changes that? Right? And what I'm what I'm interested in in thinking about a graphing or whatever is like the quantifying the intention where I specifically don't go over
three game changers to keep my deck of three? Sure, or I don't have any game changers to keep my deck of two?
Right?
At what point do tutors start to make my deck have to move up a bracket? Yeah? And if it's just tutorness, is it tutor? Yes or no? Don't talk about intention, don't talk about what I can find except for LAMB tutors. Is it going to change the bracket my deck is in? We don't really have rules that govern that. And I would love to know what people feel about that crossover, Like does having five tutors in my bracket three deck? Does that make it like a three point five?
Oh? No, no, I can't be because a three point five would then become a four, and then a four point five would become a well seven. And then now we're back to where were before.
Yes, exactly, exactly, a three point five becomes a four. And I built the deck in a way not knowing what sparse means that makes it a three. So how much can I pack in and and really how much of an edge can I gain? How much can I game the system? And how much is okay?
And that's the gimmick that we talked lots about at the store last night, because again, the Bellow is a one. Is the It's such a good example because that deck isn't a fucking one.
Where would you put it three three in terms of in terms of power level, not game changers in terms.
Of in terms of what it's going to meet in terms of absolute power, because it is fragile on a specific access where it needs Bellow to be in play. Yep. And that's easy to disrupt because he's just a three three barl with no evasion.
Yep.
That deck is a solid three, and it could probably on a good day, it could probably slap the ship out of a out of a low four is two or a four. It's a very dangerous three. But by the letter of the rules, it's a one. And people who are gonna go and build, like build the thing.
I think that quantifying number of tutors allowed or what actually constitutes on mass land denial and that sort of stuff, like quantifying what those terms mean would make it easier for you to avoid the people that are gonna build a one that's actually a nine and I mean and I actually mean nine five, you know, because you know what I'm saying, Because people are gonna do that, right, Like, you know that's gonna happen.
Yeah, but that happened before. That happened before. Anyways, people saying this is going to change nothing, You're right, You're right, and it's gonna change nothing. In the people who want to take a set of rules and game them. I did it when I was young in my commander career. Everybody was playing casual and I was like, how can I make the best commander deck that nobody can beat and nobody wants to play against. I didn't know socially people are gonna say, uh, I don't want to play
against that. Can we do something else? Yeah? I ended up never playing the deck. I ended up taking it apart. And that was a very important learning point. And the people who do this deck's a one, but it's actually a CEDH deck or nieh on CEDH deck. Are gonna learn that that.
Isn't just nobody wants to play.
They wants to play against that. And that's the same thing as having just real zero or just one to ten power scale, or the four quadrant thing that people were talking about for a while, or nothing like we had in twenty eighteen. We had absolutely nothing.
They were just sat down and played magic with you.
Just sat down and played magic. And there was guys that didn't flip their commander over to the game started because they were trying to win prizes. And that's still gonna happen. What I like, and I want to continue to reiterate this. This is a two that gives us language and parameters to use. If that person sits down, I'm not flipping over till we start. Sits down across
the street from you. Or if you're playing with random kid who it's his first Magic con and he says I have this pre con, it's like, okay, hold on a second, this guy's twelve, he's never played before. Let's be a little bit more aware of the social situation.
Well, no, let's Putt.
I have had that happen. Oh yeah, and a dude totally totally genuine and polite about it. He said, actually, you know what, I was looking to test out this deck. I'm looking to make it into my CDH deck. I don't think this POD's right for me, and I don't want to just like Turn three, everybody and and nobody actually get to contribute. So I'm actually gonna go because my buddy beside me wants to play in this game. And I'm like, oh, fuck, perfect, that was awesome, Like
why can't people do that every time? Yeah, this is gonna be a tool that that happen more often.
Here's hoping.
I'm not hoping anything. I'm confident that it's gonna make a difference.
I think I think you're right. I agree with you. I do like this and again I've seen it in action and it's actually working pretty good. And while again I think that the game Changer's list is I don't know what the word is it's At first I thought it was bad, but now I don't think it's bad.
I don't think it's bad.
I think it is maybe underdeveloped. Underdeveloped is like that that is the word, And I think that a lot of the things that we talked about earlier with Grave Packed, like should it be could it be on here? It probably should be, but then you run the well, okay, so then Martyr's bond has to go on and all you know what.
I mean, oblation or whatever it is, you can't have one. No, not oblation, ablation.
I think it's the white white, white white three. Whenever one of your things dies, everybody sacrifices.
Yeah. Yeah, and Arabos dictative. Arabos is Grave Pack two, but it got a flash for five.
Yeah, it's a taste of arable ye ADDICTI not very good? Yeah, you know what I mean. I feel so maybe that's why some of those things aren't on here when maybe they could be, because those are kind of not really a quantifiable type of card like they they I think they caught the the Blue Moon and the blood Moon and the Winter orb all kind of together in the mass Land Denial.
In the Blue Moon, Creature Guy, the murphok not even on here.
Yeah, neither was blood Moon.
Well, but blood Moon fits into the mass Land Denial. And what I love about that is blood Moon not on the game Changer's list though, it is talked about in the rules set for brackets bracket matchmaking system. Interesting, yeah, whereas yeah, tutors are not yet, and the tutors there's so many of them, I don't know, you know what. Upon further inspection of the actual list as well, Like if you chart it, there's two red cards, there's like
fifteen blue cards. Love that they weren't scared to say, well, hold on, let's pick five from every color. Oh yeah, because then it makes one color better than the other. Again, if you're nerfing red more than it ought to be nerved, and you're not nerving blue as much as it ought to be nerve, then you've got this discrepancy in power at the highest level between red and blue, maybe more than you already do. Yes, right, And I'm not saying
red is objectively more powerful than red. Right is so good though, I'm not saying that, But I'm saying we don't need the same number of cards in each color. I'm not sure if that would.
Make the list arbitrary. And then I would hate it if this list appeared, even on the surface to be in any way arbitrary, which it does not, And I appreciate that. I would hate this. We have to pick the seven most powerful cards in each color correct and the lands, and we have to put no. If they had done that, I would wholeheartedly disallow all of this.
How do you feel about the list being forty cards? Do you think that's a good number?
The number of cards on it doesn't concern me. It could be fifty cards, it could be ten cards, And as long as everything has a reason for being there, I'd be cool with it. This, this list can grow and change, and I'm perfectly fine with it.
The way that I like that it could grow and change. I love that it could be used as a buffer to take band cards off a list, and that thereby reducing the number of band cards. I think that's great. I love that it can be any number of cards. I even I don't know how nut say I'm about this idea, but I like theoretic in theory, I like the idea that it could be a rotating thing, like, Oh, what's the game changer's thing? Like what are they introducing or telling me to not play with for this quarter?
Oh, I don't want that.
I like how things can rotate like that in theory.
Yeah, don't talk about rotation when it comes to commander because ended up with brawl. Remember brawl. No you don't, and there's a reason for that.
H You didn't even give me a chance to answer.
Because I knew the answer, Ryan, I was answering for you, so I made sure I got the answer that I goddamn wanted. One thing I don't like about the list what is cut you off? No, I have to hit you with this the colorless section. I don't like that ancient Tomb is on there. I don't like that manivault is on there. I don't like those specifically because manivolt, what's the difference between a manivault and a dark ritual? Really?
Dark manivault will hurt you over time, turn after turn after turn, and you essentially have to time walk yourself to make that stop. Ancient Tomb does the same thing. It twos you every time you use it. And sol Ring is not on here, nor should it be. But I feel like some of those, like kind of just burst manna or ramp things shouldn't necessarily be on here,
because yes, it does lead to non games sometimes. But I can tell you right now that yesterday somebody went land ritual, sol Ring, arcane signet five man of Commander turn one.
Oh, that's pretty good.
And you know what happened to him?
Did they not win?
It got killed on player two's turn two with a two manic spell And they didn't play fucking shit because they dumped their whole hand on turn one. Yes, and that's what happened to them, right.
And I'm not saying play more removal you kN no, but like that's reductive. That's not what this conversation is about.
Correct, But I feel like the fast mana being on here goes back to what I said last week, where it feels this kind of butt hurdy because it's like they're expensive cards and not everybody has equal access to them. And that's why I feel that they're here. Well, the conve Ancient Tomb was printed in every pre con I don't think it would be on here much like sol Ring.
Right, I much like Temple of the False God. Correct, Yeah, I just made that comparison.
Yeah, Temple of the Temple of the False God taps for two. Why isn't it on here? Is it? Is it because it's conditional? Is because it doesn't damaged?
Because because because it doesn't do it on turn one yes, yes, I'll raise you one. I'll one up beyond that?
Why is lotus pedal not on here? It costs your to what makes a man sack it?
You know what? You know what I mean.
And I'm not saying every card that if you're gonna have these fasts, I would all fast manner should be on here, But like.
I would are well, man, that's a whole nother conversation. We don't need all fast mana on this list.
Just really expensive stuff.
We need some fast manna to take away enough fast manna from the decks that are abusing it at a lower power level to make those decks on par with other decks that are at that same power level. It doesn't mean get rid of all of it. That just means get rid of some of the pieces that are the most common and you don't have to build around to abuse or take full advantage of sure like ancient two.
Now I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go back to the colorless list and raise you one up here, go back to combine your point with my points.
Or smashing points. We're touching points. Yeah, ager like that one.
More than anything. I want to see manacrypt and Jeweled Lotus on the colorless game Changers list. And when you say, what's the difference between soul ring and ancient tomb and and tempo of the False God and a ritual and MANI vault, Sure nothing. They all do the same thing. They're all burst mana now redundancies a thing. Blah blah
blah blah blah blah. That's a whole other conversation. But go back to September when I was talking about my disapproval of Jeweled Lotus getting banned, not because burst man of turn one three, man of player commander win on turn two. That's gonna happen. Sure, sure, And if it's on the game Changers list, maybe you can relegate that two fives ors sometimes threes. Yes, sure, perfectly fine with that. That's what this is for. And it's a tool to like declare that I'm trying to fucking do this.
Yes, great, But if you put Juel Lotus on here and you allow people to play that in bracket three, or you put duel Lotus on here and say, by way of rule zero, in my bracket two deck, I'm playing a seven drop commander, I have a Jeweled Lotus in here, but I'm calling it a two.
Is that okay?
Yeah?
And then on turn eleven, after my seven drop commanders died two times and he costs frickin eleven or thirteen or whatever the math says, I can still play magic because I drew a card that at that point is just like drawing a Dark Ritual or a Seething Song or a Cabal Ritual or a manivault. They're all the same card unless you draw them all on turn one
in your opening hand. Yes, and I think Manic Crypt and Jeweled Lotus, now that we have a game changer list could very easily slot right in there beside Ancient Toom, Chrome Max and Grim Monolith and Mind's Eye Diamond and all of that shit.
And I'll take the hit and we can say leave dockside Extortion and stuff.
Fuck them.
I'm fine with that.
Everybody's using that card in casual, yep, because he's a Goblin and Goblin players just drag their knuckles on the.
Ground and I would I would know. Look at how dry mine are from bouncing off the sidewalk as I walk along. They're cold all the time.
Oh yeah, that rock salt in the winter.
Hey, gets your knuckles bad man, it's not very good at all.
Yeah, dokside, get bent and stay out of here. Stay on the list, Stay on the list. Hey, did we solve any problems?
We always solve the world's problems.
I think so you did you know what problem I would love to solve? Tell me come Jeweled, Lotus and and mana crypt yep. Getting onto the Game Changer's list in April or May or whenever they're doing the next announcement, Sure, go to Fusion Gaming online dot com before then, you ceco holiday promo code to give a discount before those prices get inflated.
Speculate on them, baby, because they're coming back.
They have to MTG finance right here. The Coalition Victory coming back?
You think, Yeah, that card sucks it.
Coalation Victory is coming back, baby, I'm I'm I'm willing to put money on that one. You think, why haven't we talked about band cards that are gonna get unbanned? Maybe that's next week's topic. Yeah dude, yeah, let's let's let's let's do let's let's make a graph.
Your thoughts down in the comments below will add them to the show.
Who's getting unbanned. We'll talk about it next week on the pre show or on the regular show. Yes, final thought of the day, it's.
Gonna be very well. We've already told them we're gonna talk about We've already thanked Business Daddy. We're gonna thank production Daddy and Gary and the whole damn studio around here. We're gonna thank Pile of Bones Brewing Co. Remember to check out the content that they graciously surprised supply refreshments for, which is CEO's Walk Slam Little Bonus one Season three, coming up on February twenty eighth. Do not miss it.
It's gonna be super lots of fun. And another thing that you should not miss is the next exciting episode of Commander Cookout podcast in our thing
Preach your notts