Commander Cookout Podcast, Ep 479 - Commander Brackets Analysis and Feedback

You listen to Commander Who Got Podcast Episode four seventy nine. I'm Brando, I'm here thrown and we're gonna break down some bracket barriers now in our theme s. Hey Ryan, We're back for yet another whirlwind adventure. How you do it?

Man?

Good?

What is going down?

Whole bunch is going down. We have the new hotness in the nation and all of magic as a hole to talk about today. We've got some stories to tell, some people to thanks, some fucking notes to talk about. Before we get to any of that, you have to thank Official business Daddy's Fusion Gaming Online dot com. They are your source for all your gaming needs where you can do special promo codes dco holiday say five percent off all your game changing cards, your game changing bracketbusters,

I'm so excited. I'm I'm so excited. Actually to talk about brackets.

Weird it's such a nerd.

I yes, I love talking magic theory, you know that, like when we can get granular and break something down and go deeper than just like surface level or trivial. I love that.

I like to talk about sharks with Bazukas very much.

So eh, but we're talking about brackets today.

Instead of sharks with Bazookas. We have brackets, Brackzukas. I was actually gonna say that as well.

There it is. That's why we're friends. Okay, little bit of stuff before we get to it. Okay, we gotta thank pile of bones like you did. We did business Daddy's Fusion. Yeah, CCO holiday promo code still in effect. Right, we appreciate that. I have my Ether drift box that I ordered from them, used the promo code on sealed products save five percent.

I got my Commander deck that I ordered from there save five percent with special promo code, And when I went to pick it up at the weird ups drop station, it was at a one of those like local small grocery stores, like in the middle of Sutherland, which is like a town within Saskatoon, Right, And the guy at the till when I told him what I wanted, he went like this, oh no, and then he was like, if you're if you're watching on YouTube, what you should be, you'd see me that I wiped just a huge gob

So nice.

Thanks guys, Yeah, yeah.

That's not very good. Final big thank you goes out to Dragoon. Oh yeah in the booth today producing for us from the Dufferin Avenue Media Network Network Network Network Studio.

Yes, we appreciate them having us in here, giving us this small heater that will blow heat onto me to keep you warm, and giving us a cool place to record the show.

I appreciate how the cameras aim so you can't see how I'm getting blown, which is not at all, which is completely normal. That is my life, never never ever getting blown by anything ever weird except for these brackets.

Oh yeah, your mind is blown by bracketology.

Yeah yeah, we're staying on the bracket theme. But Cecil Sidewalks on February twenty eighth coming up. Oh what's the launch date? Tea Coat said he'd have it to me before then, So I'm holding them to it and look it out tightly in the camera zoomed on. Yeah, man, yeah, so that's when that's coming. Can't wait. And we've got

I thought we were going to spank them without pants.

Well if we ever played magic against them, we could Rogue's Passage. That's where they're from. Their based at A Calgary. They're going to be at face to face Edmonton when I'm there, Have you found a place to stay?

Yes, I have two offers of places to stay. I'm just seeing which one will be like the easiest for everybody involved. So I will probably also be there. The odds of me being there are very high, unless some kind of life circumstance keeps me from it. Yep. So as of today, as we record this, on Valentine's Day, at Valentine's Day, everybody should also be there.

Very cool, Okay, So that is March eighth to ninth. We're gonna be there Saturday Sunday. Probably I'll be working on Saturday, but you'll be there jam and games, doing CEO stuff. And on Sunday morning, like all the whole morning. I'll have some merch there, some hats and cooks and sleeves, not sleeves, but we're gonna talk about that, just CEO stuff. So come and find us. It's gonna be a grand old time. I love and the Rogues Passage guys are gonna be there. That's that's what got me on that.

I like those guys.

They're fun, yeah, super cool. So check out the video next week. And I mentioned sleeves CEO sleeves. I've got one of the designs back from the artist. I eve me, uh that I have to show you and get your approval kind of on the.

Background of it. Is there a dinosaur?

There is no dinosaur surfboard on.

Also, no the moon? Nope? What are we doing here?

I have no idea. Lots of times I just I kind of just throw stuff at the wall and hope that it's stick.

Is there a frog?

No frog?

A gun?

No gun, a shark?

Also no a knife? No? Hey, listen, man, listen. I realized I didn't guess everything, but I guess everything that I like.

Man.

Ye is there a chicken?

Uh?

No chicken cheeseburger.

I'll show you after we've got brackets to talk about it. Okay, So we've got an article from Gavin Dragon. You really don't have to switch cameras that much. He can keep it on two all the day.

He's working hard, and we appreciate.

He is working hard. He's working hard, and we appreciate it. So here's here's the thing. We've got the article from Gavin. I'm not going to read it though, and I'm not going to read it, but I am going to read some of the things that I.

Really like about it.

Okay, okay, it's a new tool for us to use. It's a tool for us to use.

It isn't a rules framework yet, and it's still a work in progress from everything that I've heard. So if you hate it, now is the time to respectfully tell people involved that you hate it. I have some suggestions of things that I would like to see. Yes, I'm sure you do as well. You can leave them in the comments or send them to people on the word or social media, but this is the thing.

Is the time, yes, or send them to us so we can keep making content about it. I talk so much about brackets and individual cards and kind of the You call it a framework, and it's not a rules system yet, but it is. It is if we choose to use it like that, and it's not if we choose to not use it like that. And that's what I love about it, because you and me and the CEO,

Play with you, play with everybody.

I'll play with anybody, and this gives me verbiage to at least start a conversation in a way that other people are also going to know the language of.

Sure.

Yeah, and for that reason, I think it's good.

Every deck is a three. Every deck is a three.

Oh frick good thing. I ran out of stock on the Every deck is a seven sticker at the CCO store.

That would have a whole new different context. Now, hey, what to seven? Bould be Power nine inclusive and you can have more than one of any kind of.

Yes, yeah, A seven now is like thirty black lotuses thirty channels and thirty fireballs. A level three is a bazooka. It's a rail gun.

It's an actual rail gun. Old gun. Oh man, Yes he has two pairs of nun chunks.

Yes, I love that. Now. Here's here's the quotes that I actively have highlighted.

Okay, here's the quote.

But above all, the Commander bracket system is meant to provide players with greater terminology. Hold on my slide, got my terminology? Greater terminology?

Sure?

Now matter words matter and now all we're doing is speaking the same words. We're not saying, well, my ducks are seven in the arbitrary bullshit one to ten power scale the command zone made up fifteen years ago. We're not saying that anymore.

Now, we're My decks are three based on the arbitrary bullshit number excess that this group of people came up with six months ago. Now.

But here's the thing about that. This is the official stuff.

This is it.

It's like saying, what are the rules of commander as per Wizards of the Coast, And this is part of the rules.

And the word lasagna is not being used to define any of the numbers. There's a fairly clear with you. With one exception, there's a very a clear distinction between each thing. But there actually is a much clearer that I would argue is the best distinction between tiers between four and five. That we'll get you later on.

Yes, very much show and no shaded command zone. No, no shaded commandzone.

Yeah, well that means some.

Some shape, Yeah, like like five ounces.

You don't want to get a sunburn. Everybody needs absolutely.

Oh here's the other quote, and this is at the end of a sentence I'm not taking it out of context, because it's the end of the sentence that's important. If somebody builds their deck to do that intentionally, it's talking about chaining extra turns together. In this case, that's a no no. There's actually a system, a rule set, a philosophy behind what they don't want you to do it certain portions, within certain portions.

Of the game.

I fricking love that because and it's happened. The last time I played my Marvel deck. You didn't know it was extra turns deck. I said it was a peer into the Abyss deck. Wow, This turns out that peer into the Abyss when you have like four extra turn cards in your hand that you could play for free with dream halls pretty good.

It makes people feel bad.

I know this, and I'm playing with people that feel bad still because they're my friends and they know that I'm gonna do this bullshit and then probably take the deck apart. But if I didn't know that chaining extra turns together is a thing in the game that makes people sour and I just go out into the wild and do it, then I'm the bad guy, or I think they're the bad guy for telling me that I built a deck that isn't fun. Now I know.

Oh that's a no. No, I shouldn't do that.

That's against the rules of.

The fucking game. Oh shit, I didn't know that there was rules that govern that.

Now the bracket system gives me a rules framework.

It governs that. And we're gonna get this out of the way right now, because we talked about it, not in depth, but a fair bit last night. We were all out for abuse together. Yeah, yes, you can build a five that's a one. Yes, you can absolutely do that. But that's the same as saying I built my deck on the in the car on the way over here. Yes, right, And we're not catering to that because that's not what this is for those people. There's no system or set

And you could have you could have a very concrete, hard and fast, black and white rules system and people would still do that. You could have a rule system like this where they say, oh, up or down a level is probably fine as long as everybody knows, and

Don't blow up land and I don't take extra turn. Yeah, technically that's true.

Yeah, exactly. And you're you're still going to have people that that don't know that this exists. And when you say, hey, man, that's an actual.

Actually a four bracket, a bracket four deck, and they're going to say, what, huh, what do you brackets about?

And then then that introduces the line of thought, well, I'm worried about new players. This makes it really complex, ha ha ha as if magic's not complex, like you do not know a game you're playing. Yeah, it's like learning to play Magic's like like if you freaking tell a toddler to try and fly a rocket ship and land it on a dime on Mars, Like, that's how difficult this game is.

It's very tough. Nobody who shows up at a magic Fest to play with strangers is going to be so unfamiliar with the rules set of the game that they can't grasp this system.

Yes, so don't worry about it being complex and having a second set of like cards that are pseudo banned, And why aren't they pointed like Canadian Highlander. Well they are. Each card's worth one point, and you can have a maximum of three points in your deck before it's a level four. Like they're pointed. It's the same thing. Will they always be pointed? No? Will there be sometimes be

Yes?

Do your decks follow the same rule set?

Yes?

Okay, let's try and play them together and probably have greater success, similar outcomes, and more fun than if we just blind pick two random guys and said, hey, played fucking magic.

Which is what we do when we're setting up odds at Magic Fest. Yeah, yeah, you command command take up the game with you guys.

You gotta you gotta backpack at a beard, Come sit down.

Yeah? So how does it affect us?

Like? What a what do we what do we stand to gain or lose?

Us?

Me?

Well, I can't speak for you, but I can speak for myself. Nothing I gain and lose nothing by this framework coming into play. I went over all of my decks and the results that I got with like I think three exceptions are exactly what I was expecting. I got precisely the results. I thought. All of my decks are threes for the most part.

I have two exceptions to your three. But you've got like seven thousand decks and I've got nineteen.

I didn't even know I had that many decks. Twenty eight not so much. That's fricking lots.

I have two exceptions to what I think or what I thought, and then I've got two we talked a little bit about on the pre show yesterday too, that are probably two's, but have a one game changer. Yeah, And that's when I would explain via rule zero conversation that this is a modified pre con but only uses cards from the Lord of the Ring set. It's got a one ring in it, right.

Same card and a preview for CEO Sidewalks Slam season three, episode one, coming to YouTube on February twenty eighth. That deck I actually play. It's one game changer card in the deck on the show, maybe more than once.

And because there was another game changer that got cast multiple times exact what a loser, oh man, But without that till just now.

But if it was without that deck, that deck would be an easy one. Oh yeah, because it's just everything has haste. Good deck, Yes, what it is, and that is the literal definition of a one. Yeah, it's a good one, but it has a game changer card in it, so technically it's a three to three, but I'm not counting it as it.

Now, going back to what how does it affect us? What do we stand to gain or lose?

It might be easier to me go in public and like, okay, yes three personally us and our closest friends of local players.

Whose house we go to? Who's and here's here's the example. Who's kid I've known since she was in a car seat? Right, I know that guy? Right? Whose guy? Who's weddings? Like, we're in each other's weddings and shit, Like we know each other, we know each other's decks, we know each other's build philosophies. I know that you're not an infinite combo guy. I know you don't like either flux reservoir. I know Jesse doesn't do infinite combos, but he runs two Wrath of Gods and.

Every deck yep, literal wrath of God.

Yes, right, I know tendencies of my friends. I know what I'm getting. I know what the expectation is. So this tool is not a tool that we need for that. No, is it a conversation starter when new players come into our lgs? Probably it is. Is it something that maybe you could print out the list of game changers and the brackets to show people who've never heard of it before, at least in the next month or so, to say, hey, check this out. Where do your decks fall in? What's

I could do that with. Yeah, yeah.

And as far as how does it affect CCO nation, exactly the same way, Because you're already watching, You're already entrenched in in our culture and in our attitude, and in our sense of humor, and obviously the way that we build decks. If you watch our show over.

And over again, you're going to know all those things too.

You're gonna know all that stuff because you know, no Dixon, no assholes. And that's the whole that's the whole point of this. If you've already got that down, then it's like you've shortcuted the whole thing.

You don't necessarily need this, but maybe you're gonna run into somebody that you don't know, and maybe this will be helpful. Yeah. Maybe.

So the couple issues that I do take from it, and and this is maybe a criticism that we don't need an answer for in Gavin's article and in the UH in the breakdown of like when you can start to cast your combos and stuff, right, what is early and what is late? Like what does that mean?

Six turn six?

Six manna which is quite the same.

And that's the that's the big question. Is I'm gonna say six. I think that most big time combos you can probably do with If that's what you need, two card ones and stuff, you can probably do six turns well, man is what it takes to do it. And if you apply mana to turn, then yes, turn six would be the one. But sometimes you do lanceol Ring Signet go yeah land Land.

Or Land sol Ring game changer like Grim Monolith. Now I've got six man on turn two, right, and that's why that game changer is there. Yes, right, So it's like, hey, I've got an infinite combo and this game changer in my deck. The infinite combo costs six manna, but I am running a Grim Monolith because I.

Have a foil one, because I'm a baller and right to arbitrarily not do that, because I can't do this until turn six.

No, And that's why this is a great again frameworker tool to start a conversation. By the way, I don't have a foil Grim Monolith. I don't. I don't own one of those. But if I did, I'd sure as fuck be playing.

Oh, it would be a deck, and I'd sure as fuck.

Be telling people that I own it. Right, And then it uses the bracket framework as a cool way to tell somebody about like your pimpest deck. What deck would you put a foil Grim Monolith? Oh, do you play Grim Monolith currently in that deck? No?

But if I had one, I would, But you would I only have gold bordered Oh? I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know.

That's why I don't play shit, I don't Okay, next thing.

Next thing.

That is something that I have that I always question. And this goes back to like reading legal documents and like collective agreements and stuff. I'm a boring old job redundancies. Why are we saying the same thing two times, as in, why are we saying tutors should be sparse in categories one and two and three and also putting tutors in the game changer's list when we should just say tutors should be sparse. And that's it. Now. I know Gavin's

I don't either.

I think that if tutor should be sparse, you should only have like what does sparse mean? Let's def find that term. Does sparse mean three in your whole deck?

Yeah?

Does that mean two in your whole deck? Does that mean what? They should be sparse in terms of narrow tutors that can only find enchantments or artifacts.

Or creatures, Well, obviously not, because the ones that can only find artifacts and enchantments or instance an sorceries are on the list of game changing cards as opposed to the ones that can find anything you want, like gamble or things that will probably make you find even more things like I don't know, uh, what is there not Hermit, Druid, Heritage Druid, what's the Druid? I'm thinking of Druid green one taptics card, it's Survival of the Legs on Legs?

Yeah, what is that card?

That one? Yeah?

Yeah, I was gonna say Survival of the Shaman.

I mean, yeah, you find that there's lots of other cards that sort of do those things, and the fact that no creature tutors made that list with some of the other ones did is kind of m telling.

Well, Survival of the Fittest did, I think though, that's because it's repeatable, right, Ah, do a multiple times. And here's the thing though, the other tutors that made the list aren't repeatable, but they still should be sparse.

And they tutor to the top of the deck.

I can have a I can have a grim tutor in my deck, but I can't have a demonic tutor. It's one man a different right. I can have a grim tutor and a cruel tutor, but I can't have a demonic tutor in my deck. I can have a Grim Tutor and a Cruel tutor in my bracket two, and that's sparse. But if I put one Demonic Tutor in it, then it's a three. Or if I cut Grim and Cruel and I put Demonic in just straight up,

And my thing with all the tutors is redundancy, of course, is why you play them, but like, what are you redundantly looking for? What if what you're tutoring for isn't like something game busting or insane, you're finding your what's the thing there's a red enchantment where it kills the thing that it's on, and whoever like cycles through their library till they get to another thing that shows a type with it. It puts that into play with that

Yeah, and exactly I think of five color Modern White Angel Aaron's deck.

That's the exact deck. Yeah, where where he's got like one creature in the whole day.

Is polymorph become a tutor's proteus staff become a tutor in your deck that runs one creature? And I think the answer is yes. Then it goes back to letter of the law exactly how it's written versus intent, And I like that there's room for interpretation on that front because For people that are in Trench magic players who are familiar with a the power level of cards, the culture of commander, and this bracket system, they can say, my Souron deck is a Lord of the Rings them

All pre cons are twos. Apparently, Yes, there are some that have two cards infinite combos, but it's also a two.

Are there?

Yeah, there was one from thunder Junction. I think it was last Oh yeah, I think it was an accident, but still yeah, it's yeah, and you and you trash.

There's pre cons that have what's the one trouble in pairs.

That's where the card comes from, and.

That's a game changer, but it's a two. That's the exception. That's like polymorph in my own my one Creature Dot deck polymorph. I wouldn't consider that a tutor, but I would say this is a polymorph combo deck and tell people that you think you're polymorphing in a deck that's got zero game changers. You're not polymorph comboing on turn two. You're not doing that.

You're just not.

And I'll play against that in a two bracket. That's fine. My two's run removal.

Yeah fine, I got a containment priest. I'll be fine. Yeah, there you go, There you go.

I had to go through the mental inventory of what card that was.

If a creature comes into play and no, man I was spent to cast, did you exile it instead? Yeah?

You know you don't have though, drandath magistrate.

I have one of those two. It's in my most powerful deck according to it's tied with a TRAXA. Okay, I got one more question.

Then we're gonna go get into decks.

Okay, okay, h.

Should there be an allowance for game changers in each bracket?

Yes?

You think one game changer max in each bracket? Up to three?

Yes?

Or one in one, two and two, three and three and four, as four and above as any number.

I think you should be able to have one in one and two. Well, just yeah, if you like. I own a cradle, and I thought that it would make my Sapreling deck or my OOZ deck like a little better.

I like that line. Of thought where I opened up this card.

And one and I don't I don't maybe have the I'm gonna say the resources are the excitement to acquire the resources to play a three or four. But I did open this fierce Guardianship and I really want to play it.

I got an exam. I got the exact example from Gemstone mind John. His sister opened up a Strixaven Mystical Archive, Demonic Tutor. That's a card, but it goes in her off brick. It's it's like it's like a nightmare them deck like it's.

Like nightmare like the Horse that Flies or nightmare like.

I don't even know, probably some like she doesn't play magic that much and the deck isn't obviously it's not a powerful deck. She just opened it, so she plays it as she should as it and it's probably less powerful than a two. Yeah, but it's not technically a one. This is a whole different problem that we're not going to talk about. It's technically less powerful than a pre con but it doesn't have a theme, So like, where do those decks exist? But they existed one or two?

It was very enlightening. I had so many decks and it took me a long time. It took me a long time. I did it on architect early in the morning. I started knowing it was going to take a while. And as I was about maybe halfway through the like, the indicators came up for game changers sort of popping up in my list, and I was like, before I had to go through and the cross cross check the list, I was counting and shit on my fingers, and then I clicked on when I said, what does this little

I have I'll say this. I have one deck that I couldn't count game changers on my fingers.

It's got eleven. Wow, I think it is.

I think it's actually twelve because I think that there's a there's a ancient two minutes. The deck is that Breuvac Breuvac cedh like mill Combo. I'm trying to cast a six drop on turn two to kill.

You the c Yeah, of course we're going to talk about the difference.

Let's let's do bracket one though, what do you got in.

Brack of one? According to two with the bracket system, I have one. I got one one, and it's below part of brambles and anybody who's ever and here's why. Here's why. It's a one because it doesn't play any game changes, it has no land denial, it has no extra term.

Is this your jank one like your trash anti one?

They're both trash according to the bracket system. And it's got a theme of all the bulk shitty artifacts and enchantments. I'm not gonna play anywhere else it costs four or more.

Oh, you are a piece of trash.

But it also turns out that all of those bulkshit enchantments are four fours. They're indestructible in haste, and they also draw me a card when they hit you. And anybody who's played against that bellow deck knows for goddamn certain it is not a one.

So letter of the law versus intent corec and you, as a season magic player who knows the culture of commander.

It's a three.

It's a three, and it's perfect as a three. It's a perfec because you're specifically not playing stuff to push it over the top in terms of power.

Yeah, but it ain't a one. It ain't a one. No, I'll tell you that right now. So according to them, I have one one and it's obviously not a one, And I do have a three that should be a one because it's mono face down creatures, just all the different kinds of face down creatures. But it's a three because it had a fierce guardianship in it, because I had one in my binder. So I think when I get home, I'm gonna cut it and then vanifar my new deck, it'll be a one.

Now, this is a wholenother trajectory. I said on the pre show yesterday. We could talk a.

Week about this.

Oh yeah, it's a whole nother trajectory. Does that one game changer make you want to take it out? So you can say, this is very strictly to the letter of the law. I'm changing one card that's not even gonna matter the letter of the law a two or a one or a three. And the other thing, too is if it's not gonna matter, why do I gotta cut it? I want to play the card I have it yeah right, Well, then it's a three because you

Yeah.

My one one is Greema worm Tongue Cesio raw dog deck.

There you go. Yeah, yeah, so I guess my raw dog deck technically is also a one, but I have an actual version of it that I really done.

Here we are my twos, your twost I got twos. Now, these are the ones that I deem are on the same power level as a modern day pre con that don't have any game changers land denial, fast manna, sparse tutors whatever that means. And what's the other thing. You can take an extra turn, but you're not treaming, oh yeah, no, no chaining extra teah. Okay, So I've got bray of vehicles and my old vehicle deck dinosaurs driving vehicles that would.

Have been a one.

I will say that that deck never won a game ever right Bray of Vehicles has at least one games there, we go, okay, mind Skinner because it takes multiple turnover turn to mill you, and it's not gonna happen very easily in the Commander's fragile Calimax. The Community Calamax build no infinites in Calamax, and I make very distinctly sure to make sure I say that no frickin' infinites in Klamax, because he's famous for going infinite. Right. Then i got guy here Birds with a sub theme of the Ring

Cool.

Yeah, what are your twos?

My twos? I have apparently six of them. I've got a ratidrabic oops all legendaries, yep. I've got Tan of the butt Sewer and Jessica got all the swords that and that cards that decade either. But according to this it is.

Because no game changers, right, correct, I've got tour brand.

Quit hitting yourself. That's everything? Does one the deck? Yeah? And I think that's a solid two. I think that one's a good that's probably it runs. Yes, it runs a blood moon, but like, okay.

That's that's a great example. I'm saying this runs a blood moon in a mono red deck. If you want it to be a true too instead of a rule zero two? Could we we could use that language, right?

I could probably cut the blood I wanted to think of it.

Think of your tour brand as kind of like a Gyerson Stern Warhammer forty K deck, right, kind of does the same thing.

Here's one that nobody's going to agree with?

Is it?

Once? I tell you what it does? I have Wolfgar double attack triggers featuring all of the El Drassi Titans. I can double the Annihilator triggers.

How is that not chaining extra turns?

Its changing You don't have to sack your land to annihilator.

How is that not chaining extra turns? In that extra combats is how you normally win with extra turns. And also sacking artifacts that produce manna and eventually lands because multiple Annihilator four triggers will make me sack my lands. How is it a two intent versus law?

Exactly? Exactly exactly, and that's what these are. These are by the laws of the thing.

Again, people, you have to communicate that through the bracket system language and rules set, combined with rule zero and your knowledge of the culture of commander. It's very important that you do both of those things.

Yes, okay, other number two Obeca too. That's the extra up peop Rebecca, even though that one kind of is taking extra turns.

Yeah, fuck that that's so that's a three.

That's hard, and that that one's also a three ranked is a two because of how the thing works. We already talked about.

Extra upkeeps and you, yeah, like seven extra up keeps. That's not extra turns, but you're doing a thing that a turn.

Would care about having line as well, because I want to have seven more turns, so I can have seven more upkeeps. Take them all on one turn and the other two where they were Bellow and Vana far which were kind of there. So we already talked about that.

Yeah, I got threes I've got Trufast by the Letter of the Laws a three and it has a one ring take it out, take it out it becomes a two. And from Fusion Gaming Online dot com, I just got the the two drop enchantment that gives your creatures plus one plus one and whenever a creature enters the battlefield, you draw card or something.

You know what I was thinking to be really cool in that deck is you play that new Nissa creature that whenever a land comes into play, you get two energies, and then you can pay eight energies to play something for free. Yes, and then you play Life and a Limb to turn all your saperlings into lands. Then you make five SAPs and you get ten energy, and then you can play something like that thing that turns all your dudes into six sixes.

And now your deck is a badass and probably still a two because that that's terrible that Nissa comes into pre con and it takes like four cards to make that happen. So Trufas is a three. My Advisors is a three. It's got one game changer in it. Okay, I think probably it's more powerful than a pre con because late game I can go like with my team of a creatures that I worked hard in the game to get.

I did work.

I can go Illusions of Grander, I gain twenty. All my guys get plus twenty take three hundred damage. Yes, that's a combo. That's a combo. So it's got a late game combo. I've got Estrid the Bald, same thing. I work my ass off the whole time.

It's an enchanter's deck.

It's an enchanter's deck that plays Sarah's Sanctum game changer that I say, I'm gonna pay to Life to prevent all damage from this hurricane for sixty. Yeah, so I'm gonna take two. You guys all take sixty.

That's a combo, but.

It takes like fifteen cards in my deck to happen. Sure, I've got Alenda. It's got one game changer with endgame three card endgame combo. It's got like the the one that puts a plus one. When a creature dies and gives you a servo, you sack the servo and Alenda gets a counter. You get a servo. Yeah, and you make infinite manna to like torment somebody to death. Yes, so it's three or four cards. Endgame costs a bunch of man Sure. I've got Lord of Tresserhorn one game

Yeah, it's rift.

It's got infect to end the game, and it's got like deal ten or deal twenty to you with one attack. I've got orvar the all form. It's got one game changer, cyclonic rift again and late game three card combo. It can chain extra turn sure, which actually is an accidental combo, which Gavin's article covers. I didn't know that that was in there until it happened one time.

Yeah, sometimes you just are putting shit in.

Oh yeah, I guess. I five mana TimewARP and my wizard that gets something back from my graveyard with the laboratory that bounces a wizard. It's like an eight mana take infinite turns now, which is enough. Yeah, Souron upgraded pre Con one game changer, and then Bryan Stout Arm one game changer. That's where my smothering tithe is because Boros Yes, and all of my fast manna that would be in that deck that has all my eight drops. The fling is all in bruvac. Okay, let me who's your threes?

Seventeen of them. We're gonna go real fast. Here we go. So we've got the necro bloom. That's the closest thing to a CDH deck that I have right now. And it's a it's technically a three. No infinite combo in that one. It's just got the indeterminate.

GRAI you know what in determine it dredge isn't extra turn, but eliminates agency or eliminates your opponents actively participating. Right, stop me, or you stop me, or watch me for ten minutes.

I got Rondas rolling dice and making dragons a Patra mex neck. Then we got Nico. That's the sharp farting. That's the one that makes the enchantments that turn into clones.

That's redundancy, Brander. You don't have to say sharp farting. You can just say sharding.

But I'm I'm farting shark, no meanings, sharks tokens. If oh, I get I've got avy, I got av Everything costs seven storm rev. That one I think could be a lot higher. Nor in the second that should be a one or two. Also, it's got some game changes. Nor in the second yeah, Nor in the first is also a three.

Way only three less than three game changers?

Ye, no two, Oh there's three. There's three. Sorry, And to Ralph is a three. I think it could probably go higher based on play one card and win. Give a that Trelph. Full point is if Ralph is in play, I can play virtually any card in it and just win.

Yes, that that's like a single card combo with your commander. I know that the cards Interrelf are like Earthquake when there's multiple creatures on the table. I would count that as a late game combo because A there's got to be multiple creatures and B you have to have enough.

Mana the Earthquake them for six or seven Manna.

Time's number of creatures is how much damage they're gonna take, and you have to have that much, right, So that's a late game combo.

That's fine. So we got August. We talked about that one. That's the one that should be a one. But it's got the one ring in it. Uh Omnathlocus of Rage talks Rail is a level three. My Brutal Clad is a level three Bayloff, Baritil that's everything has God Glyssa that's oops all death Touch, but I don't think it should probably be in there, but it plays a man of all probably nine. By the end of the game. I got Herobi I think that's the solid three and

You know what, it's a tricky one. If you could go, if you could go like time Warp, I'm gonna do my turn and attack and bullshit and then untap and top deck an extra turnspell. Al Ron's Epiphany take an extra turn, do my thing and attack and stuff, and then untap regrowth, get time warp back or or whatever, cast from gravy or top deck, another one, snapcast or ma like, have another one in your hand. I think that puts it into four. If you've got seven extra turn cats cards, I can't do.

Any of that shit that Ryan just said, except for draw them off the top.

But yeah, sure, as if you're not playing card draw as if you didn't want to draw them off the top, if the opportunity existed or presented itself, you would do it. Yes, So I think that puts it into the four. Unintent sure sure?

Sure?

Is that all your threes?

Those are all my threes?

We said the really fat how many fours you got?

I have four fours?

No five, four fours?

No five?

Okay, I've got three fours and one of them surprised me. I have got balth Or the Defiled. It's got early game combos ye In Byrexian Altar and Grave Crawler as early as probably turned two, no, probably turned three something else. I need to have another zombie as if there's no other one drop zombies in the deck, and I've and it's also gotten familiar hole everything with Assault Monolith and mesmeric orb.

What happened last time you tried that?

Shut up, Rebecca, Yeah, there we go. And the other thing because it's only got two game changers in it. The other thing that it's got is many, many tutors. Only two of those tutors are game changers Demonic and Vampiric, but there's also a Grim and a Cruel and multiple zombies that tutor like cityc and stuff, and there's things that tutor directly to my graveyard. There's like three of those and they're also zombies. Right, So.

It can do the.

Thing that it does very consistently. So I can't in good faith play it at a two as like a Typo.

Or Kindred deck.

I can't at three, say when cast a tutor Nextern Tutor, Nextern Tutor, nexter and combo.

Can't do that at power level.

Yeah right. My other one is Marvel multiple tutors again, including Perentity Biss.

That's the chain Expert turns when we talked about earlier.

Chane Extra turns, and then my sixty.

Eight land deck. Huh.

Yeah, it can add Nauseum tutor in ole deck in one circumstance. On turn two, when I go first and I play the green card, that says, whenever my opponent plays the land, I can play a landing burgeoning, and then player two and three and four and then me play a land. And I have an ad nauseum in my starter, I can add nauseum at the end of player four's turn.

That is good.

But the reason it's in four is because it's got four game changers. Yep, it's got ad nauseum, it's got cyclonic rift, it's got glacial chasm, and then it's got ancient two something else. I don't remember the agent, right, No, I don't know.

I'ms diamond. No, I don't remember what it is. Well, I don't know.

It's got a very very expensive mana base. And I love how this this bracket system says nothing about that. Oh yeah, how many times have you ever been hit with like a turn one you play down a turn one duel land and the guy's like, oh, joking or not.

Know we're playing CDH bro right.

I'm like, dude, I don't know. I just I've been playing Magic for twenty years.

I just have this. It's fine. I was actually gonna say, like, one of the things that's listed on those brackets between I would say two and three is how many of your lands come into play on tap? And I let sounds kind of stupid, but like, if you look at a pre con manabase, they suck, and they suck not because they can't make your colors, because fifty percent of your lands come into play fucking tap unless you do

You could get online, as it were.

Yeah, maybe a turn sooner, especially when you're playing a three four, five color deck, where like you're playing.

Now, what is a turn sooner in terms of what bracket my deck falls into?

Exact's the question, right, And that's the difference between playing like, can your deck reliably play a colored one drop? If the answer is no, your deck is a two because it's a pre con and all your lands suck.

Yeah, And when when we say I don't know.

One game changer can move my deck down.

If I rule zero it, or it can move it up in the in the sense that I've got four game changers now, right, what is a man of base with perfect maunt, a dual, shocks, fetches in terms of speeding my deck up? Maybe a turn? Does that move my deck up a category? Or can I still say, oh, it's a two, but I play shocks and fetches and duels.

I don't think right, Actually, I don't think should actually be a thing, but it should be a consideration. It does matter in early games. I think it does matter how good you're how often do you get I think I think that is something that should be taken into consideration.

I think it shouldn't unless you're unless you're playing a very powerful deck that fits into three.

That would be.

That could that you could say, I'll play my three in this ced H pod just once it's the only deck I brought. Right, there's the difference. I have meta considerations that one manna that comes into play untapped makes the difference my shockland versus my duel land when I'm at nauseum makes the difference. The the tropical Island into Manadork on turn one makes the difference. And that's when you're moving from four to five. But what's your force?

Okay, my force?

You got four fours.

I got four fours, and this is some of these are weird, and the first two I don't agree with. It's only because game changes.

Hold on, sorry, editor, Joe, I know we're a touch long, that we're almost We're just about done here.

Coma Coma Cosmo Serpent is a Voltron deck, but it plays your Guardianship, it plays Manivault, it plays Force of Will and one other one ancient too, because my commander costs seven, nine, eleven, thirteen fifteen, and I have to play her again because my deck cannot win without her and I want to protect her. Next one all three sons.

Glory is a four because probably game changers, right.

Because it plays Smothering Time, it plays Trouble in Pairs, it plays Drandith Magistrate, it plays Man of Aol. Yep, now it's a four apparently.

Yeah, And while and here's the thing about having more than four fours or four game changers is what if you play like on turn three a game changer game, turn four game changer, Turn five game changer. You're probably gonna win that game, as the game were probably gonna win if you play a bunch of those game changers. I think that's a solid way to like, Judge, do.

I want these?

Am I gonna win if I cast multiple of them in a game? That The answer is probably yeah.

Probably, Yeah. This one I think probably is exactly where it belongs to Sliver Queen. That deck is basically only.

Three queen, and that's how people will treat it.

Yes, it's got five game changers in it, all tutors and smothering Time and the last one and this is the one that I don't agree with because you have to look at the list and not have an emotional response to what it is is attracts and it has six game changers in it, including both of those creators we talked about on the pre show, and then the tutors to find them and a smothering tithe to help play them. This is a deck that the threat curve,

Manna.

Here's even then. They don't as I got your back. Though.

Here's the thing is that's exact. That sounds exactly like a commander deck. That sounds like high power commander deck. Who's your commander, attracsa, what are you doing casting all the prayeders? How are you doing it fast mana and or other game changers that provide me mana above curve. Yes, that's commander deck, bro Like, that's it.

That's what it is.

So is it a four?

Like? Would it be as close to CDH as you can get? Absolutely?

No, no, no, And that's not the point of four. The four isn't the ceiling before CEDH.

The four is.

That's not like one level off of penthouse or ceiling or rooftop. It's powerful commander and that exists in this huge just mecha space. That is commander and that's commander. Like, why that's commander to me? Like, I have no other way to say it. But five, If you have to ask the difference, you're in the four category. Yes, that's that's how. That's how all Chiller No Philer, Miller told me, Like the difference. If you have to ask, what's the difference between four and five?

You're playing four, you're playing a four.

Yeah, I know that my Animar deck isn't a four, correct because I have cards in there that are specifically to stop other cards that I know are great against my deck that are outside of Animar's color like protections that are one drop, counterspells that get tutors and demonic consultation. I've got things in there that allow me to respond to things that are going to try and stop my combos.

That's what makes the CDCH deck in my opinion, with this bracket system, which is what I really like, is it's totally about intention and if you build a deck with the intention of beating the CDH meta, which we don't talk about a lot here but Gemstone John certainly does. Are we gonna hear that?

I don't know, LB. Can you turn the furnace off? Just hit the switch. I appreciate that.

Thank you, my guy.

So when you go into a light switch, it shuts the furnace off.

Behind the fridge. When you go into with the intention of fighting a meta, then you're playing in the CDH meta. Yes, just building a deck to be as strong as it possibly can. It's probably a four if you're seeing if you're seeing hydro blast, red elemental blast, your.

Offer you can't refuse right your mental misstep.

Those are I'm not gonna say those are ultimately cards, but those are cards that you're gonna run into more often because you're trying to stop a specific thing from happening. And I would argue that that's the difference between a four and a five in this particular.

I would agree with all of that.

That's why my Marxist I would consider CDH, my necro Bloom, my Sliver Queen, I would consider not yeah, because they're those decks are just raw power, try and win. As Marxist was there, okay, he's they're gonna try and counter spell me. They're gonna try and fuck with my man, and they're gonna do all this stuff.

Protect and my Animar and Bruvac are exactly the same. It's counter spells to protect on curve or counterspell up. When I'm trying to cast or spend six man on a turn, I need free counter spells because it's the only way I can cast a thing. And we go back to force a negation that we were talking about yesterday on the pre show forced negation not even that good in in my uh because I can't cast it for free on my own turn. That's a consideration that I have to make. Do I play that card or not?

We could do it next week, finish it off. We could talk about the actual list we talked about a little on the pre show. Yep. Maybe we can actually delve into some of the card choices. What we would add it, we would take off. We can take some of the nation's suggestions if you leave them down in the comments.

I got another one too. We can talk about how the Game Changers List acts as a buffer to get banned or to get unbanned. We could talk about how the Game Changers List affects card prices. That's some emptg Financial. You know how many cards spiked when they when when Gavin said, we're looking at taking cards off the band list and putting them on the game changer list. How many cards spiked?

Yeah?

Check check your fricking band cards in your binder and see if your dock side is like still deflated in value?

Good? All nine of them, all.

Nine of them great? And my one rings all nine of them.

I don't have one of them.

I got you too, well do the sign off, thank the business Daddy's.

We got to get out of here, all right, guys, please, we do want to talk about your choices for the what's what's the list called game changer list, So leave them in the comments below, send them to us at Commander Cookoad at gmail dot com, put them in the discord. It's one of the great benefits to being a patreon over at patreon dot com slash CEO podcast. Every little bit helps me, really really do appreciate you guys helping the show grow and stay afloat and do all that stuff.

Us, and loud furnaces and the extra loud.

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