The GREAT Travis Hunter Debate! Fred Smoot's Top 10 DBs | Ticket to the Draft | Washington Commanders | NFL

On today's episode of Take of the Draft podcast, Fred smoot is our special guest.

At list top Cup of Special List.

That's right, we're talking safeties, cornerbacks, all the dbs. Fred gives you what he's looking for when he's watching film. We talked Travis Hunter wide receiver dB and then number Fred's number one defensive back might surprise you.

It all starts right now.

Welcome Innute Tick of the Draft Podcast.

I'm Logan Paulson here with just the guy Jason, and today is a special day because we have the mouth of the South, Fred smoot and we're here talking defensive backs. Before we get into that, make sure you leave a comment makes you like him, subscribe. Those comments really help us kind of dictate future content. Let us know what you like, let us know what you don't like. But now that that housekeeping is taken care of.

Fred Smootie, Now he got comedy this time of year. What do I tell you when I get it to my zine? All right, when I get into this this draft process, when the computer store what to work and still have to compute, I go by smoothy mcshae moody.

I want to write that down smoothie mix shade. I thought was uh Fred Kuiper.

And you know, the one thing about Kayper is he's just like the local weather man. Uh he's wrong most of the time, and nobody seems to care.

So, uh, Jason, you got anything you want to say?

What I wanted to say is that Fred is our favorite guest on this show because you and him get into it about who is the real draft guru for

Well, guess what. The year's over. We saw how they did.

I think not.

Here's what you guys put up on the line, do you reader, I don't remember.

Okay, nope, nope.

One of you had to get on a knee and say to the other you are the true draft guru and I personally am nothing and nothing. That's what you had to do. So here's what's going to happen.

Guys, I think interrupt, but I think two of my guys got hurt last year.

They got nothing to do, all right, So here's what we're gonna I've already talked to producers of our other shows, and this feels like something needs to be.

Yes.

So one our Command Center, the one right before the draft.

Reveal the results right before right.

It will be on that show. The commandser at least releases right before the drift April or something or another. Right, we will reveal it live on Command Center, and we will have either Fred or Logan getting down on one knee bring and they're saying you, so, I'm not going to tell you the results yet. I find out why. So everybody needs a tune into that, and we're gonna do that. We're going to do this again too. Fred you already said he'll come back on for one of

It's okay, So let's get it.

I'm gonna get out of here because I don't know anything at all, being just a guy about DB's and we have one of the best to ever put on the Burgundy and gold at dB here with us, Fred Smoot. So he's going to break it down with you, Logan the draft guru, Right.

No, at least for the time being super conflict.

Myself the draft guru. He's the draft professor. Gotcha, Yeah, draft that's a great take it away.

Okay, so let's see, let's get into defensive backs and so let's just super high level friend. Yeah, what are some things We're going to talk about some definitions here in a second, but let's start trades.

You're looking for a DV just super high light rights.

First of all, I'm looking for high football IQ. Everybody wants to go first into the athletic ability. You wouldn't You wouldn't be here if you want athlete, all right, I'm looking for a high IQ. That means can I play all coverages? Can I make my plays within the coverage? And can I manipulate players to do what I want them to do?

Right?

So I'm looking for guys that then played a lot of downs a lot of snaps. Hopefully guys thatn't line up left right inside outside show me some versatility. So I'm also looking for length. I love length, and sometimes length come in different ways. Sometimes you can get a fivelem dude with a six three wingspan, and that length proves itself through un length and reach. I just think

Of trouble having that length.

And to me, it stops the number one route that people like to go, and it's to go route.

You've got long ums.

It kind of prohibits people from running go routes on you.

So I also love lint. I also love.

Quick twitch and sticky people. And the quick twitch is the ability to go from zero to one hundred. It's like driving a corvette. You want to know what the corvette does in the ten to twenty and thirty seconds, all right, And I want guy that can move in a box, so that means quicker than fat sometime, because I think your plays are going to be made in a box than it is in a hundred year a field most of the time.

Yeah, So let's talk about a couple things. Let's double click on it real quick. So, like the high football like Q one, I think is really really interesting because it's something that's incredibly important for corner, probably more so than maybe linebacker maybe is more important, but it's incredibly important for defensive back. On when you're watching film, how do you determine whether someone's got good football? Like, I know you mentioned that line up in multiple spots. I

Well?

To see them play route combinations? Anticipation. That's telling me. One, you study because you don't jump routes that you haven't studied like two. This telling me you taking what you studied on film and you're taking it to the field. So not only are your study of but you trust what you study and you also trust what you see. If you line up through yours outside the numbers and the slot guys right there out in the numbers, he's

Yeah, this is the route combination.

It's so interesting looking at your description of you're listening to your description of what you're looking for. Then looking at your list, and I'm like, all the guys on your list really fit your vision, fits your ranking at a high level. So I really can't wait to talk about that. So let's talk about a couple term like definition, clarification things. So for me with a DV, let's just get out of the way. I also look for length. I look for kind of awareness. I look for like

I would say, no, no, I love a competitor.

Like the one thing about being a competitive what it does is it's telling me, no matter what happens in this game, good bad in between, you're gonna keep competing and you have to be that way because you're gonna get burned in the NFL. So competitor goes very high on my list cause this mentality that's part of the coneback's mentality.

I got to have that, but go I got to have a dog.

Yeah.

And I also look and I also and we friend and I have talked about this before, and this is one area where we I don't think we differ on but I probably value it more than you. Is I need to see like a physical courage I need to see a guy who's willing to tackle put his face in there. Just that to me, because like, ultimately, football is a physical game. Yeah, and you got to show me you can do it.

So that's one thing.

That's one thing that I, again, I value pretty heavily. So those are some things that I'm looking at. I agree with Fred. The situational awareness stuff is so important for corner. Yeah, you just got to be smart down.

It's where we on the field, fifty yard line. It's time for them to throw go routes. Just knowing that the small stuff that you should know automatically. If it's three by one and I'm on the back side, I'm probably gonna get attacked.

Like just understanding the game awareness.

Yeah, no one.

So Okay, that's kind of high level stuff and I think that's all really good. And there's something all subjective about all these things and that's why the drafts so hard.

But let's talk about these terms. Are you're familiar?

So one of the terms that I hear thrown around a lot, and Fred mentioned it with the short area quickness stuff, which is also very important, is the clicking closed stuff.

You hear that term all the time.

You're listening to any draft analyst talk about TV there like he's got great clicking clothes, Yes, Fred, Yes, what is that?

That's seeing it and going getting it?

Like, if you want me to put it in lameish terms, he closes to the ball and he takes the air out of it. He understands angles. I see most people they can see something, but they take the wrong angle to go make the play like they having the ability to close is one thing is being quick. Two things is believing what you see. Three things is going getting it. And this has got to be tenth of a second. Now, this is not a two second thing. Like you have to close this gap very quickly, and some guys are

And we're definitely going to talk about that more in detail. And you know, again who's my number one and where the rest of the list falls. But I also think clicking clothes to me is like when I see that, there's that there's the recognition, there's the mental element of it, but there's also the physical element where you see the footwork. Is the footwork tight? Are they getting kind of off balance?

Gotta be like you gotta be very feeline like in the feelane always laying on his feet. And one thing about it is the quick twitch and it are you taking a t step?

Like? What how are you getting there?

Are you balance?

As a defensive beat coach, I can clean up you, I can make you a technician, but I got to have something to work with.

Sure.

I think that's a great that's a great differentiator there, all right. The other one that if people say all the time is he's sticky in coverage. Now this can me in my opinion, be a bad thing. It can be a good thing.

Now that's a different between me and sticky and handsy.

Yes, yes, they are two different things.

Sticky mean you're never floating, You're never too far away from your guy. No matter what route he runs, Like if he's running that post, I'm right here on his back hip he's running that dig route. Because we got a couple of guys in this draft that they play over and under routs better than any corners I've seen in a couple of years, Like listens Reveale Junior does that at a high level.

So we're gonna talk about I'm chopping.

They got me going because the more and more I started to study this group, I was like, my god, it's something literally game changes. Then I start to write down, Mike, who I'm comparing them to, because I think everybody got a little bit of somebody we have seen already.

And I just I looked at it.

I like, I can't keep writing these bowlers, Like why am I keep saying Pro Bowl?

And then I said, maybe in this group is a group that has these type guys.

No, I think that's that's one hundred percent right. So sticky, proximity, handsy. The thing about all these college and bess are all a little bit handsy. And so what I remember that is there's no illegal contact downfield. Yeah, right, so they tend to be a little bit more pully, a little bit more gravvy. There's a guy that is very high on my list that I almost didn't put there because

Yeah, and that's where the coaching comes in. That's where the coaching comes in at and the veterance that's on the team, because you learn a lot from the veterans. Like everybody won't have a treasure trove of knowledge like I had with Dion sanders Dale Green and Champ Bailey.

I basically walked into DBU.

Yeah all right. And then the last one, which I think is very important but not as important as people think it is, is closing speed.

Well, you only need closing speed when you're getting yourself in trouble, when you're technically not there early.

Like they always say, either dB, you're gonna win early? Are you gonna win late?

You only need to strove closing speed when you when you then lost. All right, closing speed comes when you recognize when recognition kicks in and I got to go get this out route like he go to different between college. You could be you could be just better than somebody where I can break up this slant route, and then in the league you learn I have to tackle this slant route right, So it's a different because of the

Yeah, I like it, and they think about it like closing to make the tackle or closing on a slant or you're in off coverage and you got to rally to a hitch like that's kind of what we're talking about. So now I think the moment we've all been waiting for is this top ten quarterbacks list, And so we're gonna do is We're gonna stop start at ten, go to one. We've got a couple of names that are floating around that are a little bit different, so we're excited.

We're going to start with Trey Amos from O Me reason.

You know, I don't like too much from Old Miseries, but they do JJ Pergeze, they big Dtac, I do like him, but uh, trade is first of all, competitor, I'm gonna say that. And we talked about being a competitor. Two, he's played against high notch competition.

He's been in a bunch of different schools.

Yeah, he's traveled.

He understands like when I look at some DB's and it's a couple of DB's on my list that if you look at them mathematically and chrammatically and how they test it, they not test the best. But what they do is they what I call a jack of all trades. They're not grated no one thing, but they're good at a lot. And Trey ain't is epitomizes that my flaws are minimal, but my great things are minimal, if you know what I mean.

Dude, I kind of feel the same way. So he's just off my list. So he would have been like eleven or twelve for me. And we'll talk about some other guys that just didn't quite make it, but he's one of them. And he's the guy that I felt like was was line, like he was like, you know, he was in the right position. I felt like some of his clicking clothes stuff was a little bit sluggish, right, a little bit.

A little bit off balance, right, I didn't feel nothing.

You can clean up though, yes, And.

That's why I would defer to you.

Like, that's why I'm watching him, like he's a little off bounds, he's a little bit sluggish. His immediate reaction isn't there. Yeah, he tracks the ball really well. Yeah, he sees the ball well. The other thing that bugged me about him is like, there wasn't this urgency to the football.

Yeah, you know what I'm saying.

He's kind of like a hidden confidence. I get there. When I get there, I totally understand.

But also he showed me why receiver traits and that's what I'd like to see in my BBS because you got two type of cornerbacks. You got your cornerbacks that used to play running back and you got your cornerbacks that used to play wide receiver.

I tend to go with the why receive.

A group because now you think like a wide receiver aka Mikey Sanders Steele. I'm a guy that used to play wide receiving, so now I'm going to do at the cornerback. Was this year's play a more physical brand of why I receive? And think about him as a a NI Son ultimate. I'm telling you I can put two hundred thousand miles on it in dependable. Look for him to get drafted to a play a parental playoff team like a Pittsburgh stealer, and then he becomes a

I think he could.

Yeah, And I think you know, he's a big guy. He's about six one. He's like I think he's six and three quarters. If I found got long arm, he was one of the bigger guys. Ran a four four at the COMBA. He's got some juice, man. And again like this is not to me. There was just that that that lack of urgency always makes me a little bit nervous.

Who's your ninth guy?

Fro Exavier Wise now notre dame.

Listen, safety for safety.

For another dame?

Do you pity me of what we just talked about? Good at everything, great at nothing but ball. I Q through the roof, I see it through his plane.

He's a fun he's so I'm really glad you put him on here. He's a really fun player.

To I've been saying when I watched him, he jumps off the screen and when I watched DB's, especially when it's safety. Do I ever see you just fly into the screen? Do I see you do that on downhill runs? Do I see you do that on slint routes? Do I see you do that on tight ends? This anticipation, this physicality, that understanding my assignment. This is an assignment based, dude,

This is what this guy's about.

So I don't disagree that anything you said. The one.

He's a he's a heck of a ball player, man like he gets he's around the football, always balls out, he's recovering fumbles, he gets interceptions. He's a tough he's a he's a very sound, competent tackler, all the things you want to see. I think he's better near the line of scrimmage in the post. The one thing I have on him, the one thing that really kind of made me nervous. I think he's a subpar athlete, and subpar athletes in the NFL at dB specifically, yeah, tend not to figure it out right.

I wouldn't.

I would not say that because I played with a lot of safeties that was never the greatest athlete, but they was Ryan Clark, for instance.

But I think think about Ryan for example, was Ryan was a psycho coming towards the line of scrimma.

This guy's not that.

And then when you watch him the post, he doesn't cover the same kind of ground.

I think he's a bad angle steam And I.

Think it's that's that's the thing though, But also I think it's also I seen him kind of lay away from one guy that's on your list, and Benjamin Morrison. I've seen him sometime you go away from player that you don't worry about, and I would see him lean to the other side sometimes because this way he figured the ball was going. So I see him trying to

Had never met a better pro.

You had never met a guy that literally the chicks all the boxes besize I'm not the greatest athlete.

And again Ryan was special in terms of physical violence. Again, like, this guy is a fun football he's a football players football player. But I just worry that the angle thing bothers me a little bit. The lack of top shelf athleticism.

I think early on in his career he a package guy. He'll be a part of and then he can hopefully turn into the player that he was in college.

Okay, and this so number eight I'm really excited for you to talking about because I actually in my breakdown I wrote this is a young Fred Smooth.

So and get what in my breakdown is I got ritten right here in my iPhone three when I first watched him play first team jumped off the screen.

He's a competitor.

Yeah, and he ain't scared to yeap and he is just long is you can see and he makes listen. I should put the signature right there, Fred Smooth. Like, I can't wait to watch the DRE because you know they always do comps. They'll probably have to comfort to I'm sorry. He plays with an intensity, he plays with a swagger.

He makes plays too.

Now, like we're not just talking about got it because the one thing I don't like is hollow dB Like I need to see some numbers. I need to see you make an impact on the game. This guy makes an impact on the game. Allah, Fred smooth, two point zero. That's what you got. He's gonna get the ball back. He ain't scared to throw it in there and tackle. He'll be good and special teams from the door. This guy, right, he'll make slaves.

Yeah.

And so you're watching versus Louisville playing off coverage man, his ability to read kind of bait the quarterback they're running like a smash concepts a five yard hitch corner behind you. Yeah, he intentionally hugs the hitch knowing I'm jetting me.

Yeah, and he jets back. Makes a great player in the football.

He's competitive in man coverage at times, a little handsy, but in college member, all these guys are little bit here.

I think he's competent in run support.

There's times on screens and stuff where he gets a little bit, but like he's gonna fit his gap and do what he's supposed to do. The Again, he wasn't on my list. And this is again one of those things that the analytics snurd in me does not like about the drafts because he's a good football player. But usually outside corners who runs slower than four or five are not successful long term outside So he ran a four five three four five four at the combine.

That's legit time.

Plays faster, and that's what I'm saying.

He's a good play like him.

These So these two guys right here, And I'm glad that's why we're having you on, yeah, because I get a caught up in the draft stuff. You said, I'm a professor, right, I got my math, my numbers, my formulas. So eight and nine or nine to eight are good football players, objectively good football players. They're tough, they're competitive, they're what you want on the team. I worry about physical threshold here a little bit, and I think that's just to give you a different perspective.

I'm more of a guru and glaru goes with fields. It goes with fields.

Hey do me a favor. Are who are we talking about here?

So this is this is Kobe Bryant Kobe Bryant from Kansas dB plays outside corner.

Yeah, good football player.

I think he's and he's basically he's a Frenchman.

I think he's going to be a better pro than he is A he was a college player.

I like him a lot. Again, like the tape, the tape is the tape. Yeah it's to me, it's the athletic threshold.

There is not a long history.

Just like with offensive lineman tackles with under thirty two in charms, they tend not to play outside and maybe you feel like you could move him in the nickel. I don't know if he's got that skill set. It's a different skill set.

I think you would survive more outside because he knows how to play the high i Q game.

He understands.

He reminds me a lot of Sale Madison also, and how he plays his out man like. He has some qualities and that's what I want. His DNA says, I can survive. Runda Barber ran a four five forty. He's a he's a nickel, but he was a nickel that played outside. He only played nickel when they when they went into the die package out of nickel package. But other than that run day he played outside and it survive wheel.

Yeah, he's a fun guy to watch.

He's a little again, Like I know, people compare like I've seen National comps to him to like Emmanuel Forbes.

He's much more physical.

No, he plays strong, going at the top of the route all of day.

And his techniques better, like we talked about that clicking codes. Like his footwork's really tight. He's very balanced. He's a heck of a heck of a football player. Sorry, now I'm gonna give you my ten nine eight and we'll do a little analysis on each one.

So I'm gonna go.

This one was tough for me. Yeah, I didn't want to put him on here, but I couldn't resist.

Like what one thing forced you to put him on?

I'll talk to you about hi right now. So Darren Porter, cornerback Iowa State. If you're a Commander's fan, I'm sure you've heard about him. He's six two and a half, he's two hundred pounds. He ran up four to two eight at the combine, got a forty inch vertical. He had the fastest three cone. Like, dude's a physical freak.

And it scares me. He's been in doesn't match out of task.

So he's been in college for six years.

Yeah, this is his first year playing dB and physically you can do anything you want. Yeah, I agree with you. The film is not always there. The thing that got me on there is when I looked at the three cone, when I looked at the forty, when I looked at the vertical, and he did the head. There was a dig he was playing. I forget which team they were playing. There was a dig route and he got himself in bad position. Guy's running a dig and his ability to turn his hips drive the dig.

Yeah, close the window. I'm like this, dude, someone's gonna look at this guy.

It's going to be a team that can has the chance. Yes, right, And I hate to say it, I'm about to throw up in my mouth. Sounds like something had Roseman to do. Get this guy, draft this guy stashing for two years, teach him how to play the cornerback position, how to save the position, and before you know it, he's out there like he has all the miserables. Yeah, and I see this all the time. But these guys has this miserable but don't have the fund.

Yeah.

And again I don't disagree with what Fred said, Like he's got some good plays, he got some flash plays, but it's a little inconsistent.

It's the routine play. He's there.

That's the thing is I don't I'm not there with it right, But I just think you look at the athlete, you look at the physicality, you look at the length. He had three inch arms, and he's like an offensive lineman out there, like and when you look at it and pressed situations with hands on receivers, I'm like, this dude can cover anybody.

But he's not always balanced. His footwork's not always great.

So for me again, I just was like, and I think the other thing I'll say about him is I think there's a want to there that I submitt you that I.

Like, you know, I think you at the lead over IQ, and I think I'm IQ.

This is the only one for me that I was like, this is this is I am acknowledging, Like this is a.

Hail Mary for me.

I In terms of football player film, I like Kobe Bryant better. I like Trey Amos better on film. But I just thought, like, if you're looking upside here because you're projecting, there's not a player in this class that has more upside this I think we see him the same way. I just rated him a little bit differently. But if the situation is right and you can develop him, I think he'd be a great I did.

Say it if I'm a dB coach, in which if you a dB coach, your job he is on the line.

I'm taking Kobe Bryant because.

He's he's ready, He's he's more developed.

But if you if you can sit for a year and understand what you're going to get out of him, he's an older prospect when you're playing dB. Just thought i'd throw that name in there. The next one, number nine for me is Benjamin Morrison from Notre Dame, cornerback outside player, coming off a hip surgery. This is his second hip surgery since he's been in college. He only played five games I think five games in college show guys.

On this list.

The thing about him is, I think he's very consistent. Yeah, I think he plays good man coverage. I think he's got a solid fielding zone. But the thing that really sold me was his ability to play man like he.

In his size.

Dude, Liz, be honest, he is a Dan Queen's delight.

I'm talking. But he's sixty three.

No, he's he's six to one. I think I think he measured its six and five eightsps just under it. But he big guy, long arm Lon long long long.

Arms, Like you say, Chris man Delight, like he he understands how to get it done.

Are you worried about a dB with two heel pens?

This was what This was hard for me because why he didn't make my least there's a dude.

I'm worried about it.

But then I look at the other guys on this list and we'll talk about that when we get there. There's a lot of guys that were really banged up in this class, like that are good football players banged up? And I just said, like based on the film, like when he's playing, I don't know anything about the medical, I don't know anything. We don't know anything about the medical right now. But he is a guy that to me really stuck out in a in a positive way from the competitor.

The ability to play it. Again, like we didn't talk about this, we were talking about trace.

I'm looking for in dB because of how much man people play in the NFL I really value man coverage traits and you think the risk is worth the reward. I don't know anything about the medical. I don't know anything about the medical. That's all I'm saying. But like you see it right, his ability to click and close, play game, he can tackle, he takes plays in big games. He covered dude, he went one on one. They put him one on one with Marvin Errison Junior. Yeah, most

When I think of him, I just think of a football play. Yeah, dude, like football player. I could probably end up at safety before my career. Thover, Like I am a football player.

He's one of them. Coach. What you need me to do, I've got.

And again the reason he's lower on my list because I think a lot of people say, oh, I've heard he's going to be in the first round. I heard he's going to be the fourth to be. He's not the fourth one.

BB.

I don't know because he doesn't. There's zero zone coverage on his tape.

I can say they didn't x him to do it. I can't get may it.

And so you watch him at the Senior Bowl. He does a great job and man situations, locking everybody down. Like he's big, he's physically, he's long. He understands how to play press, he understands how to play man, just period. He is a violent tackler, which I love. Like he had sixty eight tackles this year. Yeah for a receiver

Maybe, but the other guys are physical freaks.

Yeah, that I think project better to be NFL pros because of their ability to play man coverage. Yep, all right, I want to go seven six 'y five for me here real quick.

Friends, Well, I'm gonna start it at seven right there, Max seven, Yeah, Harriston, I think both us level his key.

Yeah, Maxwell Harrison from Kentucky.

Tech from Kentucky, jess a doll.

You open his chests up, He's got to be a chatchaw some dagar wolf inside this kid.

You want to talk about film, jump off the film. Watching his film is.

Just a delight me because this guy one looks like he enjoyed playing the game. You know, I love traits of high IQ and instinct. He has it all like he understands the game of football. And you know how we talked about, uh, Trey am is not playing with his hair on fire like, well, this guy, to me plays with his hair on fire. And I think that's

Yeah, Maxel Harrison. Again, I agree he's he's a little undersized, but he ran that. Fortunately, I don't worry about size, and he's got decent length. He's got he's about six foot like. He's not a small guy. He's a little bit skinny like, but he's one hundred and eighty five pound andy seven pounds, so not ninety.

Right, So it's all all takes and weights.

You see him running, it's impressive. He's not afraid to tackle. That's also good. Only played seven games last year because of a solid shoulder injury. So a little bit concerning the thing Fred that I wanted to bring up to because again with Maxwell Harrison, I see a guy who understands coverage.

Yes, good in zone coverage.

Yes, round combination, he gets him up.

He gets it, Yeah, he gets it.

The thing about Maxwell that I couldn't get my head around. Is every hen't he doesn't play man coverage, well, he.

Go to think about it because he's technique. It's off

So again, in off coverage, Maxwell Hurston is a beast like he does a great job anticipating rock concepts, interceptions, the man coverage stuff. And also I didn't think I wanted to bring up Fredick because and you understand this because you played dB versus the bigger receivers. I felt got like a little bit quiet, you know what I'm saying. He just he didn't have the physicality to deal with it. Again, he's like I think twelve on my list, right, So just just off the.

Customer, right.

I just think it's just so much to work with him that he's one of those things where dB coach can't wait to get him in the room. Yeah, because whatever he doesn't do well, I feel like I can clean.

Up as a coach.

Yeah.

And again like film's good. I actually like Kobe Bryant film a little bit better. But I think the athletic upside of hers.

I would say the athlete sticks out yes on him ever since.

Yeah, absolutely, the next guy.

In number six, man, he could have easily been my number three. I'm just gonna keep it one hundred like this is how this is how.

High I am on.

From Carolina, East Carolina, small school guy.

Listen, my man is a dog. Listen to your dog.

This is when I always tell people, if you really want to know a good DV. They like probably picking off go route. That mean you didn't get me deep and you were faster than the receiver you got that. No, when I see you picking off crossing routes over and over and over again, and not only does he pick them off routinely, like the angles that he taken our special when he when he makes his mind up to put his foot on the gas and get down hill with that left. Oh my god, listen to me. This

Dude, love that.

It's a great com Yes, sir, but I will say this and this is a good thing.

Yes, my man wants to tackle.

Crow was tackling when he first got a lead. Crow was tackling when he first got lead. But you know that lyft Crow gat the ball skiels. Yeah, when I first out, like this is this one of his masks? Huh? Because I'm there serious logan. This dude jumped off the tape. So I was like, man, I would this will be the third d being taken for me.

Dude, Well, we'll talk about some other guy. But he so acl this last year. Yeah, only played three games. He hasn't done any testing this offseason. That's the thing that pushed me down.

But watching his tape, he runs a four to three.

Dude, he is so I'll tell you, so this is it? Wait, like we Shavon Revel, we love him. He does the things I like.

He tackles, he's physical, he plays man covered at a crazy, high level.

He's instinctive. A couple of things that make me a little bit worried. The injury. Obviously, he's playing at East Carolina.

They don't bother me.

But against if you watch him against Michigan, Yes.

He played ball dog a dog.

Listen to me, he got that dog getting And guess what. I love small school guy because they play with a chip on their shoulder from the time they get to the NFL to the time that they leave this guy right here, Like, as a matter of fact, I'm sorry to you, Schauvelle. I'm sorry for the hate. I'm sorry for the disrespect. I should replace Baron at three with shavel That's how I feel. I mean, we reveil, That's how I feel. I'm sorry, that's how I feel. I'm starting to feel icky because I didn't do.

It to me. I feel the same way. I wanted to put him above some of those other guys. But the injury, the uncertainty. You didn't see it this year from him. Yeah that's again Fred and nine. Yeah he's six for me too. Yeah he's exactly six. Because I love him, but I was like, I can't put him above healthy people that have done the process.

Yes, I can't do it, and that's what I'm saying. But that's why he wasn't at three. I really want to put him ahead of Baron because I just feel like, because I'm trying to project as a pro now I know what you're being in college, I'm saying, who's gonna click with the pro game faster? And now that I'm really really thinking about it in my head, he should have been three and I should have been talking about Bearing right there at six.

Yeah, okay, so let's talk about your number five real quick? Who I also love? Yes, the cash Starks from Georgia Place.

Safety eety most definitely. Now you want to talk about mental warfare?

Dude?

Could you do you like this comparison Earl Thomas. I don't think he's that fast instinct. Yeah, you're saying, you're saying the intelligence.

Intelligence, the size, ye, the move he fluent.

Yeah, Like when he moves it's no wasted steps.

So I'll say this about him, like he's a big dude. He's like six to one and a half. He's two hundred and five, two hundred ten pounds, a big big guy. Yeah, he plays like Nickel.

That's what I'm telling you he minds me of Branch from Detroit.

Dude, I think that's a better comp for me. Branch is a little bit more physically violent. You can play nickel, you can play posts, you can play the linebacker in a time situation.

We don't know where you're going to be when the play starts.

And he didn't play some big tame football against some big time whie receives the big stage is not too big for him. He's He's one of another one of these guys I do everything good, nothing great.

Yeah.

The thing that I love about him, yeah, it's I feel like he just is a He's a.

Good football player.

You get out to the Keyston.

And he can play man coverage, which is important to me. He's a great tackler. Yeah, Like he's so consistent, instinctive, and he's good at wrapping up. He gets you on the ground, He's not afraid of it. He takes good angles. So I know people like I wanted to put him higher, I didn't. I'll explain why when we get to the other person that's a little bit higher on the list.

Is he is He's just such a high floor player.

People are criticizing him because he doesn't have a lot of ball production, doesn't really bother me that much.

Cut the ball fouls funny, right, all right?

But I like both those guys.

So let's talk about my I've been through seven to five Brock. So Jacob Parish from Kansas say, I don't know if you watch this guy.

Did watch him, dude?

He's a ballplayer, man, He's probably gonna play Nickel.

He's a ball playing Jesse. But you're gonna have to move him inside. Yeah.

So I think he's just got a great feel like in man coverage, he's got a great feel. He matches up against people. He plays outside corner at Kansas State. He I think he has got a good field for playing bigger guys. He plays through the hands, He's got a good feel for the balls in the air. He's physical in the run game, he can blitz, he can play Nickel like he's just a physical Mikey Sanders reminds me of Mikey Center.

That's exactly. That's exactly reminds me.

I'm just asking because when I was watching the field, like I've seen this player before, you know, I've seen it, and.

That that's because I love Mikey coming out.

And that's how I feel about this guy.

And I think you'd be talking about Jacob Parrish if he went to a bigger if he went to Michigan in the same way you're talking about Mikey Sander So like he just does.

He's he ran a four to three at the time.

No, no, this is why I say it, Mikeyy Sanders. It's like that new doctor Pepper Blue Beery. He just explodes in your mouth right there watching this guy. He just explodes off the field. He's very instinctive, don't waste motion. That I love a dB that doesn't waste motion. He plays angles very good and with the right coaching, he could be a high end player like he was.

He missed my list, yeah, by that much.

And I get why because he is probably a true nickel at the next of what he's converting.

So there's a little bit of risk there.

But like you said, Fred, like his footwork's tight, he's on balance, he tackles well, he's good, and he's comfortable in man cover. He can run with anybody, anybody, and he's tough. He's just a tough, tough little.

Bastard, right. Yeah, Like he did close for making the list now.

So he's number seven for me, and then obviously number six is Shavon Revel from East Carolina, who we talked about for about ten minutes.

And then this one. Fred.

Yeah, I'm really excited to get your take on this because I did not know what to do with this guy.

And you know what, I battled and I just said that I was gonna move him the sixth.

Move, let's let's leave, let's let's keep the end of suspense Baron from Texas.

Yes, I did not know what to do with him.

That's because.

He he is an issuv.

Okay.

You know how they make these new sports suv They title but grab a couple of kids in there. Not quite a sports car, if you know what I mean. Like, he doesn't show elite quickness.

But that's that's the thing.

Just a football.

He didn't show lead quickness, but he ran a four to three at the time. But he don't play he doesn't play that way.

Well, I don't say he don't play that way because he's not really out of phase.

But that's exactly right. All the things you're saying are true. It's like you're in good position, you're playing man coverage. Well, you look a little bit apathetic. Sometimes you don't look like you're that fast, but you made this play.

So I thought to myself, Logan, who have I seen that plays? This just relaxed and it was Derel Reeves. Okay, And I said, why did Dreil play like that? Because he won so early he never worked late.

Yeah, so that's why.

I had him at three on mine.

And I was like, that's why he's he's winning, uh at the first Mississippi.

Like, so I can't flag him for being that smart.

So maybe he uses more of his IQ than he does his athletic ability.

Yeah, and so that's so again, let's just let's just peel this back. He's a really interesting prospect. So I agree with what you're saying. Like he's good in coverage, he's got good clicking clothes. He played outside this year. I think he probably plays nickel. And again, like I think there's other players. I almost put Jacob Parrish above him, but I don't think Jacob Parish gonna play outside. I don't know if he's physical enough to play full time nickel.

Like his timing's good, is insign he tackle well on feel, he didn't like, Listen, this is what I tried to do. I said, let me go down here and figure it out through red flags. Okay, all right, because every time I was trying to give him a green I mean a green flag, I was just giving him green flag.

So the effort is always there. Q was there, I couldn't find no red flag.

Yes, yeah, dude, I yeah, I don't know what.

To tell you. It's a weird.

It's a weird thing for me because I didn't love him so but there's nothing wrong with him.

So maybe I said, maybe he won so early the challenges wasn't there.

Maybe, so maybe I just need to see him get challenged in the lead. Yeah, and so that's why I put him.

Witherspoon was my coma.

And again like I like with Witherspoon, that's a just sh comp actually, because the Witherspoon had this fire, yes, fire to it.

He's just kind of chilling something.

But he make plays in big game, I know.

But that's why he's fine for me. That's why.

But he's three from me because.

I'm like, damn, I've seen the real Reeves play at this methodical pace before.

Dude.

Yeah, I think that's really, you would know better than me because you watch more film, you watch more dB film than I do.

Okay, so let's go four and three.

We'll save two and one for the last little bit of conversation because that's really interesting. But let's go four and three. You already talked about your three. Let's talk about your four.

All right? My four is nick em and you were Did I say that em and Warry?

Yep.

Listen, man from South Carolina, big safety. Everyone probably remembers him from the combine.

I can say, come by beasts.

He is physically mathematically at sixty three. I think he did the bench press with twenty five times. You got long arms four three, the closest thing on paper I've seen to Shun Taylor.

Dude, Anywhere's twenty works twenty one?

Yes, and listen to me.

I just watched the film over and over and I was like, now he go to thing. He doesn't have this shut hands. He doesn't pray with the physical prisons.

Dude of Preach Fred Preach.

He doesn't.

He doesn't come downhill with the bad attentions of Seun tas How, he's wired. So maybe somebody he meets somebody in the league that get that dog, true dog out of him and say, you know what your ceiling is, could be here if you take this part of your game to the next level. But no problem with him in coverage, plays well in space. When this hosse get his head on the ball, town he dropped that thing in the fifth gil and he is out of there, shot out of a cannon.

He is.

Usually these workout warriors don't play with that on film, Like I watched John Ross Runner four to two and to come by and never could stop in the league. Like this kid right here, ceiling is through the roof. He could have easily been the number one guy on this paper right here. He is unbelievable.

Dude, I'm so glad because again, when you watch him catch the football, when you watch him run with people in man coverage, you're like.

Who is that guy?

Like tight ends?

Yeah, in the league, he's having no problem with that chance.

And he's got good man coverage in since he's got great range of safeties, a little tightening, little tight in the hips, so like you don't want him, like you just.

Want them to play lord, that's it.

Yeah, So it's all there.

The one thing I almost did I almost put him at eight, almost put him at eight, but I was like the physical upside too much.

Because he's not a great tackler. Like remember watching Colin Hilton, you watched watch Compton was a dog. Yeah, and he take on blocks. He it runs.

Yeah, he could cover a little bit. He's not super fast, but like that's something that you watch enough.

Db'st red.

Yeah.

If you don't tackle well, like you're out of here man, because I can't trust you, especially playing.

Safety, to make that play.

I think, like I say, I think you get to the league, somebody can reprogram me. I'm gonna tell you like this, he reminded me of dB I played with in Minnesota, and it's Darren Shop Okay, Hall of Fame defensive back, can go find the ball, can out run a lot.

Of people, good size, can play down here.

But he just wasn't the most physical safety for his size. So this, if you're telling me this the production I'm gonna get, I'm with it. Like then what I say, he could easily be the number one guy on my list, like film is unbelievable. I just wanted him to be more physical at that size and that speed.

Yeah, and I did watch the Alabama game, which was his worst game. Yeah, and that makes you a little bit nervous. Then you watch like Texas A and M and he's like all over the field. Yeah, and so it's interesting.

Guy.

He's number four for me also, just to give you an idea, like where I'm at with him, but like he's he's a heck of an athlete, heck of a heck of his ceiling is all over the place.

Is enticing, Yeah, most definitely a little a little Darwin James in there also, Yeah, but.

Darwin is more physical, That's what I'm saying. But the echo lip profile.

Yeah, but the physical, the physicality makes If there's one thing that makes me, it's he's not overly physical, and it makes me nervous a little bit.

And he's not a great tackler, So everything else is there. Yeah, it's all there.

That's something I'm always gonna be like if I'm in the draft meeting, I'm like, I like him, but we got to make sure he gets with someone who can teach about a tackle.

All right.

So you said Johade barn was your three.

My three was Malachi Starks from Georgia, who we talked about earlier with you again. I just think his floor is treetop high. I think he's an NFL starting player right now. His film's good. You can play man coverage in the more Ball production, and I can live with that because all the things that like Nick Emmin Warry does, like the movement skills, like Starks isn't the best mover, but he.

Just every tackle I want to make an emotion.

I'm gonna be where I got to be and I'm gonna get you know, like, so that's where like I just think that's a that's a football player, Johnny.

That's my kind of guy. Right now.

I can't wait, honestly talk about one and two with you, Yeah, because I had I was tossed and turning about this my man, about who is gonna go where? And so let's start with you and then I'll tell you my.

I know, once you seen one, you like he did it. He did it, he did it alright. First of all, I was starting with my two. My two is Travis Hunter, the Heisman Trophy window from Colorado cornerback, wide receiver. I have to look through dB eyes. When I looked through dbiyes to me, he was the number two best corner in this draft.

So talk okay, and this this conversation makes no sense. Yes, you're talking about you're number one. Also we're talking about it together, yeah, Will Johnson from Michigan.

Yes, And just for the record, my two.

Is Will Johnson from Michigan and my number one is Travis Hunter. And it was razor thin close.

Well, I'm gonna tell you what made it for me was the physicality, right, Will Johnson's physicality. Will Johnson is basically a faster version of Charles Woodson. Will Johnson at six to two hundred pounds, it's a length, is.

A specimen of a corner. Will Johnston.

Right, we look at this and we see Travis Hunter, and we'll be like, who's the most explosive guy with the ball in his hand?

Will jumpson? All right, listen to me, Will justin might be a step faster.

He's bigger, He's more equipped to be an NFL cornerback right now than Travis h And it's aying a lot because I compare Travis to a skin of your Champ Bailey. Right. His ball Travis Hunter's ball skills are undeniable. He had some of the best ball skills I've ever seen, but I have never seen somebody put his foot in the ground and come down here like Will just Will Justson has played high end football to the peak of it.

He's tackling.

That's why I thought you were gonna go Will Judson because of the physicality.

I'll tell you why so Will Johnson when you watch his twenty twenty three and he only played seven games aside shir kids.

I don't know what the injury was, but mister back two to that. Yeah, he off ball, Yeah.

Is unbelievable, Like all the stuff you talk talked about, like what would you high football like Q. His ability to match concepts, well, Johnson does a great.

Job of that.

His ability to debate guys, he does a great job of his ability to anticipate throws. Well, Johnson does a great job of that. Like it's all like that stuff. It was so good, And this is what I want to ask you about. Yeah, because he's a good tackler too. Yeah, I agree. The thing that I couldn't get past, I couldn't find one snap him playing man coverage.

All right, he was. They was playing this off matches.

It's like off match zone.

That's what they was that's what he was.

I'm never gonna penalize a player for being xd to do something and mastering it.

I'm just not. But with his.

Athletic profile and those long arms and that strength at the point, I have no.

Doubt he could play mate. I have no doubt he could play every coverage.

So that was the thing I was.

So I was watching him, and this is again like the off ball stuff is maybe the best I've watched last two years.

Three years. It's really, really, really good.

The thing that I kept coming back to is like, and this is where I would defer to you, because you watch TV's more than me, is how fast is he? Because he doesn't look like he's that fast.

I know I see a four to three easily. I see a guy I can always tell.

Okay, this is another thing I had first three four steps, I can tell. I had a scout tell me that they thought he was gonna run four six? Does that change the narrative for you? Knowing me knowing that information, He's still number.

Nine for that now.

I know Indianapolis is very close to Kentucky and Tennessee. But what kind of whiskey was he drinking? I don't see nothing. This kid probably ran a four or five in middle school. Look, I see pure speed.

I see. I hate to say, this hurts so bad.

I see the profile of Shun Springs when he came out of mission.

I mean.

So bad, so bad.

Shun was six one and a half, two hundred pounds specimen, highest dB ever drafted. I see will when I say, I see a faster child whistle?

What does that tell you?

Why Kyle Travis a skinny your chump bag, and this kid just I'm sorry. He's God's gift to cornerback. He's that good to me. He's better than Devil Winn Spoon. I think he's gonna be better than Spoon.

I think he got what is you say his weakness? You think is speed? I see no weakness.

So so that was my only that was only thing is that I didn't see him play a lot of man really any man coverage, because thinking that's not his fault. Yeah yeah, but I'm also like man coverage is an important part of.

I think made me feel a lot more comfortable. He was the best dB on the field. While Saban said last year that Mikey Sanders Steel was, pound for pound, the best dB in that draft, Well, this guy jumps off on that fence.

Yeah, And so I like him. I don't like him. I love him.

I'm a little concerned about like I want to see him run because I want to I want to fill my little formula out and do all that math stuff. And I didn't see him play a ton of man, and I know that can be a hard transition for people who he's playing in an NFL defense, So like, don't get it twisted, like he's doing high level stuff. And again he's the second guy on my list, and it's very, very close.

I remembers having an argument last year about Cooper the genie. I think I turned out to be right because you said I don't know if he can run.

I mean I said he wasn't gonna play outside. That's what I said. And I was right about that too. And you were also right about that because you thought he was a true outside corner.

I thought he was.

We gonta see next year because he's gonna be asked to do it.

That's he could be a down fair.

Like I said, I never penalized players when they not actually do something, but Travis Hunter tackling in the NFL do you not think there's gonna be a problem.

So let's talk about Travis Hunter.

So Travis Hunter is very raw when you watch him play quarterback.

He's a little all over the place.

Case at the lead peeple in the league.

He's very handsy.

I don't think he's that great an athlete, Like he's a great athlete.

That's gonna sound weird, like I don't think.

He's great from like an explosive like like he's not gonna run a four to two.

I don't think he's gonna run a four four.

I think he run a four to three, but I'm not I wouldn't feel good today matching him up against a J.

Brown. Yeah, I feel good matching Will Johnson up against him.

And that's why I got wheel number one, because when it comes to the more physical receivers that don't need to run past him, like, I don't know how he's going to do with the with Mike Evans, Like I just don't see him having a good day with Mike Evans.

That's a great that's a great way to characterize it, because it's it's if you think about it that way, obviously, I think then Will Johnson again the speed slol issue. But I will say this about Travis Hunter. He plays stronger than he looks when he's got his hands on receivers. Yeah, he's got a great feel for reading routes in man coverage, miss ball skills and his ball skills and his anticipation is crazy.

Like again, Will Johnson from off is better.

But his ability, like he had to play against UCLA where he's you know, they're running the outside, go there, running the five yard out. He acts like he's in man coverage, puts his foot.

In the ground, remember the play and go get.

It, and and so that that playmaking ability is special. And I'm also banking on this to friend a little bit. And this is this is where you get hurt. So I'm gonna be mad at myself because I tell other people not to do this. Is I think when he gets with a coach and he's playing dB full time, Yeah, I think he's gonna be all right, is what I think. I think he'll be alright because they don't think he's not a bad tackle. He's not like a super he's not like gonna kill you, but like he's he's willing.

Well he go to think about it. You got two type of tackles. You got a hitter.

Yeah, and that's somebody that's gonna pose a wheel on you and you got to tackle it.

I'm just trying to get you to the ground.

I think he's.

Most definitely a tackler.

I just don't know is he going to be a tackler in the third quarter of five minutes?

A great question. It's a great question.

And this is why I said, who's the most complete dB, not the complete football player?

And the complete dB was real Junts.

Yeah, and everything you Fred said I agree with, except I'm worried. I'm a little bit more dubious about They didn't see him play man coverage. Ford thinks you can coach. I'm gonna defer to Fred and his overall speed. Travis Hunter is raw, he's but he's competitive as all out door. He's hyper competitive. His ball steals are excellent.

Technician, I gotta need more technique from him.

And I also fear how's he gonna fare against the bigger t Higgins of the world. How is he gonna fare against size and strength?

And obviously there are one and two, so they're both really good and we feel really good about him.

But like no, no at the league comes with dot flaws. That's what I want you all to know. It ain't been many perfect guys to come out to draft.

All Right, I'm gonna ask you a couple more questions about Travis Hunter because he's one of the hottest topics right in this draft class. So is he gonna play wide receiver and cornerback in the league?

Can you do it?

Will he do it?

I think he has to master the cornerback first.

I think right now, if I was drafting him, I got him picked as my number two corner in the draft. If I was drafting him as a wide receiver, he'll probably be like my number five or six, right, So he's better at the corner position. I need you to master this one before I give you permission to go learn another playbook. I need you to master the nuance of the cornerback position to tackling, taking on screens, taking

Yeah?

I think for me it's I actually like this film better at dB honestly than I did a receiver. Like I think he's more raw there. And it's hard. It's really hard watching this film because he does kind of pay himself.

You know, he's off playing hard all the time.

And then again he's playing one hundred and fifty snaps, so like that's.

Not like a knock on him.

It's just like it's like you're you're hoping I'm projecting a little bit to like when he gets to the league, he'll be playing one spot, he'll be better coached. And again, just that dog competitor, that ball skill stuff comes out, and I do think it's a little bit more valuable at dB, especially with the way he plays the football. He plays the football crazy man.

Yeah, But I think if he walks in any wide receiver room right now in the league, he had bits the number three or four receiver.

But like, I don't see him as a number two.

Like if he came on this team right now, he would not beat in the top two receiver.

I see.

That's the thing that's hard for me with the receiver thing is like he does the traits are there, his change, the direction is there, the way he tracks the ball.

Is there is it any wide receiver.

He reminds you of prison pass that he plays like I got you one Ted gain.

He reminded me of Ted again with not the high end speed.

He's better that he's better. He catches the football better than Ted. And I think he's got a better change direction than Ted. So and as we've talked about, those things are really important and valuable. Like for me, he was the second rode receiver after touch up McMillan. Yeah, and so he's just there's something about the athlete that it's hard for me to overlook. He's just so special

Crazy plays, kind of like George Pickings when it comes to I like that.

Actually that's a pretty good comp like a raw route runner. But like you just at tracked the ball.

All right.

So, Fred, let's say you're a GM for whatever and you're you're picking in the top all right, is Travis Hunter on your board? Because one of the one of the.

Top three you say, I'm in the top three.

Top five like, where are you picking him? Where are you feeling comfortable enough to pick him? And the reason I'm asking is because a lot of the big name draft analysts that do this, and the biggest name had him going number three overall. But if he's not your number one corner, he's your number five wive receiver. You don't think he's playing both ways? Why is he going up so high? Just as a compared he would be tied with one of the highest draft of DB's.

Yeah, like I say, Sean Spring was number three and Jeff Okuda was number three, like Eric Stingly, That's.

What I'm talking about.

Their film was.

Their Stingley film blows his film away? I'm sorry, right, So he's not these guys. The fourth overall was a Sauce Gardner. Fifth, Devin Willis, Spion Jaden and Ramsey, Patrick Peterson, Airberry, Sean Taylor went there, there are all DB's, So I'm trading down, so you're not take you where do you feel comfortable? I feel comfortable taking him around seven, around seven to ten. Yeah, that's where I would take him at. And I would come in saying what do like? The

I think he's gonna fail at both positions.

If they try to do that, he's going to fail it both because he can go on the defensive side and get his confidence to go back to the offensive side and them dB he's he's a pro dB and they gonna take his lunch.

Yeah, I think, uh, I think that's a great point. Like it's like a dB.

I'd probably take him at ten at the receiver, I'd probably take him at fifteen, yeah, fourteen fifty like that, Like he's a good player, Like I'm not.

This is gonna sound like you.

Gotta put both players to get Yeah, he is one.

He's an excellent player. But like if you just said, hey, I'm drafting a dB.

Yeah he's maybe ten, eleven whatever, you know what I mean. But he's not he's not that.

He's not this guy that we've seen these like other high level prospects at the position. And he's a good receiver, but like there's risk associated with it, and usually in the draft about mitigating risk. And I think I said this to you, Jason, like, maybe you're mitigating risk because he can play both.

But I think Fred bought a probably a great point.

If you force feed him both things, he's I think he's for sure gonna fail because it's just so much more challenging at the NFL level. The schemes are more complicated, the physicality is more intense, the seasons longer, like he's just gonna get beat up.

Yeah.

And let me ask you this. If I told you he got drafted, we turned the page. He got drafted to the Tennessee Tides with the Mayonnaise Man will live.

Yeah, right, do we see him?

Because that's a team that would say we gotta say tickets, we need you to play both.

They'll force feed him. Now.

If he goes to New England with Drake may yeah, maybe you got a shot. Maybe maybe you got a shot now. So sometimes it ain't just about the player, it's about the destination.

Yeah.

And if you at the top of the draft, you already know you're going to a terrible team.

Yeah. And I think, yeah, man, And I.

Think it's just the way he tackles and the way he plays like he's not refined like you watch those other guys like they're more physical, they're more And.

That's why I had to take wheel jes because when he just more refined in every aspect of dB.

Yep, no, I agree, man, dude, Fred, this was a lot of fun mantime.

Many time I can prove you wrong, Professor, I am with it.

Well, I would defer to you on this.

Man.

You've got a really good feel for for defensive back play, obviously because you were a really good player in your time here, obviously. So that's gonna do it for today show. Please make sure you're liking to the subscriber ever, get your podcasts and uh that's it.

H