Emma Goswell: 0:05
Hey, thanks for choosing this podcast. I'm Emma Goswell and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. We're a podcast from what Goes On Media, and we pretty much do what the name suggests. We bring you real life stories from right across the LGBTQ plus spectrum every single fortnight. I've been lucky enough to sit down with people from all over the globe to hear about those intimate moments when people have discovered who they really are and when they felt brave enough to share that information with a friend or family member. Please do follow us on the socials. We are at Come Out Stories on X previously Twitter, and we are coming out stories pod on the Gram and stay listening to find out how you could work with us. Time now, though, to hear from a sporting and trans icon. Yes, you don't hear from enough of them, do you? Verity Smith is Chief Diversity Officer for the World Barbarians and Transport Inclusion Manager for the brilliant charity Mermaids. He plays wheelchair rugby for the Leeds Rhinos and is passionate about the sport. I started him by asking how he identified.
Verity Smith: 1:12
I identified as a trans man and sort of always was masculine, never really feminine or anything like that. So a lot of people make comments to say that I passed too well, but I hate that saying.
Emma Goswell: 1:23
Yeah, why? I mean, that's an odd thing to say you passed too well. Why would somebody say that?
Verity Smith: 1:28
A lot of people say because of the beard and the way that I speak and the way that I act and the way that I look, and I think that people need to sort of think about it doesn't matter that way, it's about who you are and who you feel, rather than trying to look at other people and trying to be like them. Just be your own self. I think being your authentic self as well.
Emma Goswell: 1:47
But let's go back to young Variety, if we can. What was it like growing up, and presumably from a very early age, knowing that you should have been born a man?
Verity Smith: 1:56
My earliest recollections were about been about five. My sister was very, very girly. She always wanted the dolls. She wanted the toys. She wanted the nail varnish kits and all that sort of stuff, and none of that ever interested me. My mum would get toys. My grandma would take them back with the receipts to the shop and buy me stuff that I would play with. She'd take clothes back that my mum bought and would go get stuff that I felt more comfortable with. I had a pair of overalls and a motorbike jacket when I was five and in the garage with my dad and helping in with the bikes.
Emma Goswell: 2:26
What sort of toys did you have then? Because I had Scare Electrics and Evil Caneville, so I'm guessing, did you have similar stuff?
Verity Smith: 2:31
I had Scare Electrics. I had Tool Kits, Multi Bikes, Sega, Mega Systems, BMXs and you name it Anything and everything and I think it was just great. I remember having a little electric motorbike and I got into trouble because I was charging two PA go to the kids down the 10 foot to sort of ride on the back of it. So I got caught by my grandma what an entrepreneur from a young age I know I shared my didn't carry on into it, so yeah. So I was very lucky to sort of just let me be. They never tried to force me into things. I remember my mum making me wear a Brysmode dress when I was about 10. It cost a 50 quid and an hour to get me in the shop to be a Brysmode for my uncle. But no one's ever forced me into anything. They've just let me carry on doing what I wanted to do and I was very lucky with that. Both my grandmas as well were the same. I lost my parents quite young, so they supported me through my like teens and my early twenties and things like that. So just letting me be was the best thing that they could have done.
Emma Goswell: 3:37
Did you wear the Brysmode dress, by the way? Because if you did, I bet that was pretty traumatic.
Verity Smith: 3:42
I did, yeah, I got into trouble because I had to wear a little white ivory pumps and they got covered in grass because I wanted to play football with the page boys and ruin the dress. So they gave up asking any questions after that or asking me to do anything.
Emma Goswell: 3:54
So essentially it sounds like your grandma was, you know, more on the page than your mum was, you know. She kind of accepted you as being trans, even though she probably wouldn't have used that word from the get go.
Verity Smith: 4:05
Yeah, well, we were talking about it last year and she said that she'd always known. But she said I had to find out for myself. I said well, you could have told me about then, couldn't you? It just saved a lot of hassle. And she said no, no, she said we all knew. And because I've never my parents didn't have the opportunity to speak to me about anything like this, my dad died when I was 17. My mum was ill from me being about 10 and died in my early twenties.
Emma Goswell: 4:31
She said everybody knew, but the language wasn't there For other people to understand where you were growing up and what decade you grew up a child in.
Verity Smith: 4:40
So I was born in 1981. I came out in 1993, 94 as a lesbian because I knew I was different. You couldn't see anybody like me back then. All I could see was masculinity and the women that I played rugby with and the people within the community. So I sort of carried on down that route. I just I knew it wasn't me, but I knew there was something different.
Emma Goswell: 5:07
And was there a sense to think you know it would have been the 80s or the 90s that you were just a tomboy? Because you know that's what everyone called me and that's pretty much what I was. I was a tomboy who then grew up to be a lesbian, but was that what people assumed you were?
Verity Smith: 5:21
Yeah, I got called a tomboy quite a lot and people would make jokes saying, do you want to be a boy? You're not a girl, and sort of like all those comments. And it was quite hard because I knew I wanted to be a boy but I didn't know how to say that. My dad was a paramedic, my mum was a pediatrics nurse and even they didn't have the language. So I was quite lucky. I grew up in Hull on the East Coast. They found a LG well, what was an LGB youth club for me back in the early 90s, which was pretty much unheard of. That's pretty cool. So I was very lucky. My mum and dad stayed in the car outside to make sure that I didn't do a runner to go sort of like meet other young people, and that was great. I met some great people and again, there was still no other trans people.
Emma Goswell: 6:07
I mean, I'm sure that group is now an LGBT group and probably has a specific trans young person's group, because we have moved on a long time since the early 90s. But it was a different time, wasn't it? Yeah?
Verity Smith: 6:19
definitely. My mum outed, unfortunately, one of my friends. He came to stay and was at a birthday party at my house and his mum rang up and they hadn't told their parents. And they rang up and went oh, it's nice, isn't it, that these two are seeing each other now and dating. And my mum went what do you mean? She's a lesbian. It was like Well done, mum. You didn't go home for two days after that. I ended up having to share my bedroom.
Emma Goswell: 6:43
No, he was going to the gay group as well.
Verity Smith: 6:48
Yeah, and because my family was so open about me, my mum didn't think a second hoot about making any comment without even thinking. So my mate, unfortunately bless him didn't go home for two days.
Emma Goswell: 7:01
Was it all right in the end for him?
Verity Smith: 7:04
Yes, yeah, he was absolutely fine. But it was just the fact that my mum didn't even think about other people having issues. He didn't think that there'd be problems for other young people at home, as in for me, she was just blasé and all my dad would ever say was have you met my daughter? She's gay. It's like, well, you could have said other things, it was just so proud. It's like you can't say other things other than that, dad. It was quite funny because, like the ambulance men always used to pick up the kids on their weekend and when it was payday we'd all see all the other ambulance men and their kids in town shopping. I remember one of them coming up and saying, carl, what you were doing today, and he went home just buying my daughter football boots and a gum shield. I think the other guy was like dress shopping or something for school. The early 90s were quite hard. Now I couldn't have imagined trying to talk to anybody about being trans and gay in the early 90s. Even when I did come out about six years ago I still a lot of gay female friends who I've known since I was a teenager really struggled with it about sort of giving up my identity as a lesbian. You're not a lesbian. You've been with women and all this sort of conversation and it was like, but I never really wanted to be there. I was just trying to find somewhere to fit in and be me and it wasn't until I finally got to come out as me and I mean I'm 42 now. I've been with my partner a year where a cis male, very happy, very understanding. I couldn't have imagined any of this back then. It's absolutely brilliant. Nick's been on a learning curve as well, but even within our own community. So Nick's a drag queen, oh wow. He does absolutely amazing work and supports the trans community, and young drag queens as well Got their own house of madam. It's still difficult. So within our own community we went out on a night and Nick was working and I was introduced to another drag queen and as soon as they realised I was trans, they started kicking off making comments about what a nightmare I had, that Nick wasn't a real male because he was dating somebody like me and was taking the mick. They then pulled me out of my wheelchair and was taking the mick, about me being in a wheelchair and if I could drive a car then I could stand and drag me out of my chair and there was absolutely horrendous.
Emma Goswell: 9:19
That's horrific.
Verity Smith: 9:21
And that's from somebody that's within our community and their comment was well, I don't have to understand, I just have to tolerate people. And that's not the case. So, even though we're sort of moving, we're still seeing it within our community. And if we're seeing it within our community, then we're seeing it with our government and everything else outside. What are we supposed to be doing at the moment? So we really need this education. So these coming out stories are really good, especially for people like me, because we don't think about the intersectionality. Yes, I'm trans. Yes, I'm gay. I've got a disability. There's lots of things that make me who I am. It's not the one part of me.
Emma Goswell: 9:55
You're totally unique and it's interesting. So you've literally gone from coming out as a lesbian to being now a gay man to all the other trans purposes.
Verity Smith: 10:03
Yeah, I get to be myself and that's absolutely amazing, but I've not been able to do that, so I've lost half my life. Because when I was playing my sport, I got told that if I came out as trans, I'd be kicked out of the women's premiership. And that was my thing, that was my family, that was my go-to. And at 42, I'm only just living my life now because of the way society has treated people and how society has seen things, and we're only just having the language now to talk about these things as well.
Emma Goswell: 10:29
Well, let's talk about your sport, then, because rugby was super important to you. When you were, back in the day, identifying as being a lesbian, you were playing a lot of rugby and then talk us through what happened, because you came out while you were at quite a high level of rugby weren't you?
Verity Smith: 10:44
Yeah, so I started playing rugby when I was 11. I started playing for the Hall Vixens and it turned out that I was pretty good at it, but I was a bit taller and a bit broader than the other girls I was playing with at that age. They all overtook me because I'm only 5'6". But at that age I couldn't get any game time. I couldn't get any game time for the under-16s because the other teams didn't want to play me. I couldn't get any game time for the under-19s. So one of the players rang my dad and said look, is there any chance that you'd let her play for open age for the women's team? My dad said well, if she can hold a role, then why not? And I started training with the women's team. My first game I went out and my own coach had to play for the opposition because they were short of players and I wiped my own coach out and the rest of it was sort of history. I was playing open age from 11, rugby league. I started rugby union when I was about 14 and again turned up for training night. The first night turned up and there went lads' trainings tomorrow and someone went oh well, she's here for women's training and the coach sort of went yeah, all right, then go over there. I started playing union as well, and again in the forwards, in the prop, right at the front of the game, just because of my size. Back then I was playing county north of England, north Yorkshire, in both codes. By the time I was in my 20s, england trials. I then got selected to play for what's now DMP Sharks. I was playing for Thirst Sharks in the women's Premiership, so I got a really good opportunity to play with some of the top names while I was there. And then that carried on and it was like I was always worried and I was thinking about what happens if I came out as trans, because I knew I was different and at the amount of times I sat on my bed and cried. I read through policies, I tried to have a look at things to see if there was anything that I could do to be able to carry on and still play, and unfortunately there wasn't anything there for me for that.
Emma Goswell: 12:34
So what was the policy at the time? Then? This was still in the 90s, was it?
Verity Smith: 12:37
Yeah, so there wasn't really any policies. It wasn't until I got into my late 20s that I managed to read something from England Rugby Union that said, if you'd started transition, that you could carry on playing for two years after you started hormones, but then you'd have to leave. And there wasn't anything for men, for trans men, back then, and there was absolutely nothing for the trans women and trans girls. So I kept quiet, because what would you do after two years? I was in my 20s and like another 20, I've played another 20 years since then and so I kept quiet about that and I just carried on playing the game and all the stupid comments. The amount of times I've turned up to games and someone said there's a man playing for the other team and my mum would stand and shout that's my daughter, or my grandma would kick off in the stands or make comments and my team were brilliant. They were great because we'd gone nights out and they'd even kicked me out of toilets when I was out with 20-odd women's rugby players and things like that.
Emma Goswell: 13:29
So you were essentially getting transphobia before you even transitioned or came out as being trans.
Verity Smith: 13:34
Just because of the way you looked and a lot of that is, as you'll know, is the difference between gender identity and gender expression. I didn't look and I didn't act like the rest of the girls. I didn't have long hair, I didn't put make-up on, I didn't wear dresses after the game and all those sort of things. I just wore what I felt comfortable in, and I still do now shorts and polo shirts, old t-shirts and jeans. I constantly lived in flip flops when my feet were working, and I even got married in flip flops because I was married as well.
Emma Goswell: 14:02
When was this? I missed this part.
Verity Smith: 14:04
Yeah, so when I was 26, I was married to a woman for seven years and again it was one of them things where I tried to do the right thing. I tried to fit in. We were friends, we went through the adoption process and unfortunately, it wasn't to be. We separated for lots of different reasons and it sort of gave me time to think. I carried on dating for a little while and then I started dating somebody who was trans and they wanted to get involved in sport and I was constantly fighting for them to play and looking at policies and having conversations with people and then I thought you know what, I'm fighting for everybody else and I'm not fighting for myself. And that gave me the courage to come out as myself. And when I came out, I was trans. I had so many problems. I had forms to fill in, I had to have photographs taken next to some of the RFU coaches, I had to get letters from the doctors sent off, all your personal stuff. Everyone else just turns up and plays rugby, but not for people like myself.
Emma Goswell: 15:06
It's a whole extra layer of stuff to think about that. A lot of trans people. You know it's complicated enough coming out as trans, but because you're at that level in sports, it's a whole extra level of bureaucracy and transphobia, isn't it really?
Verity Smith: 15:19
Yeah. So I had to send all this off. And then it was like what do I do now? They just left me, nobody spoke to me and I had to wait about eight weeks to see if I was still allowed to play my own sport. I was horrendous. I had anxiety, I was depressed. It was so bad. It was like being young again and going through all the things that I went through. And as soon as that paper came back to say, yeah, I wasn't a danger, I could play, and it was amazing. But then it started causing me problems on the pitch as well. So I played this one team from Yorkshire two weeks in a row. The first week someone turned up to our changing facilities and said well, I hear you've got someone trans that's playing. We need to know their details. And my coach was like well, no, you don't. And then the second week that I turned up to play, they came to play for us. They were stood in front of my toilets. They wouldn't let me in my own toilets, in my own clubhouse. They wouldn't let me in my changing rooms. They waited. They were there two hours before the game so they saw me that I was there playing already and ten minutes before we started to play they came out with a letter that they said was from the RFU to say that I couldn't play because I was a danger and the young referee at our pass three on a Sunday afternoon didn't know what to do because you couldn't get old of anybody. So I was actually marched off the pitch in my kit in front of everybody so that I couldn't play. It actually backfired on them because one of my friends, lucy, came to watch and she's like six foot bigger than me and she just looked at me. She went do you still wear a sports bra? I'm like, yeah, why? She went, just hand over all your kit. So I handed over all my kit and I'm stood there in a t-shirt on the side of pitch and she actually went on the pitch and real moved all of them and said well, you could have had me at five foot six or you got Lucy. So it was your own fault and Lucy caused more injuries than anything. So it just shows like my argument is I've played 32 years and more technical. I was a better player that way, not because of my size or the fact that I was on testosterone, because what a lot of people don't realise is I had a hysterectomy as well when I was 22 and I went through really many balls at 19. So I've been on bits of testosterone anyway, but it wasn't a problem until the word trans came into it. They knew that I was on that for medical reasons for all them years, but it wasn't until the word trans came into it that it became an issue and I've turned up as well and gone to other pitches. I've had blood sput in my mouth. I've been beating up on the pitch.
Emma Goswell: 17:47
But this is by women players.
Verity Smith: 17:50
Female players, cis female players, and they sold my story to the newspapers before I even got home from Hull. And the worst bit was it was a team in Hull, my own hometown, and before I'd even got home I had reporters in my garden from the newspapers and some of them let my dogs out into the garden to get me to come out of the house, because it was a back to back, so the dogs were in the front garden so I let the gate open and let my dogs run out to make sure that I'd come out. They were trying to get hold of my grandma. I had to bring my job because this game was on the Sunday. I was starting a new job on the Monday. It was like trying to bring up the CEO to say just to let you know I'm in all the newspapers, I'm allowed to come back to work on Monday. It was absolutely horrendous.
Emma Goswell: 18:32
And what was the story? What did they print in the end.
Verity Smith: 18:35
Trans woman tries to infiltrate women's rugby team. Trans woman danger to the game. Referees are leaving. It's like well, one, I'm a trans man and two, I've been trying to get out women's rugby for 26 years. But because they put a picture of me with a bald head and a big beard and all this sort of stuff, the amount of trouble that caused and hatred, I had to get in touch with Ipso and the newspapers and speak to them about this and they only put an apology three weeks later on the back page that nobody would have read. And again, at the moment I'm currently in a documentary in America called what is a Woman, because someone's put a photograph of me with trans women athletes, which that's not a problem to me. The fact is that they're using a trans man to use an image to show that this is the sort of person that's going to play against your loved ones and your partners and your children and things like that. And they know exactly who I am and they're just refusing to take it out completely.
Emma Goswell: 19:26
And it's not actually the truth.
Verity Smith: 19:27
You are no longer playing in women's sports are you no, and we see it with the people on social media and some of the people that write these books and people that have got all these comments. And there's a well-known philosopher that makes comments and he said oh well, the most famous trans man is still infiltrating women's teams, something along them lines. I can't remember what he said and it was like well, can you tell me who that is? And he said well, that's you. He's like well, have you not seen the Wheelchair? For five years I don't play women's rugby anymore, and there's so much misinformation that is out there at the moment, it's crazy.
Emma Goswell: 20:02
Well, tell everyone about your accident then, for people that don't know what happened and how it happened and what it led on to.
Verity Smith: 20:09
Yeah. So I was still playing women's rugby and unfortunately, in my last women's game I was alone out to another team and I got a tackle off the back of a rock Even though the game had finished. The lady came around the back and tackle me through my spine. Unfortunately, my spinal cord was crushed as part of that, which led to damaging my legs. I've got crushed. By now I've got a Bluetooth battery in my back. I actually have to charge myself up regularly. You're bionic, I am, yes, so I have to charge myself up to make sure I pay management and like the tremors and things like that has stopped. I've had both my feet rebuilt. I've had my leg rebuilt, forced spinal surgeries later and unfortunately that couldn't be fixed. It's led on to so much horrible stuff and again I didn't think I was going to play again.
Emma Goswell: 20:59
I mean, that must have been such a terrible time to have a sport that you loved, and now you're in pain and you're in a wheelchair.
Verity Smith: 21:05
Yeah, I just I locked myself away, I didn't want to speak to anyone. I didn't think I was worth being with anybody, because actually, the person that I'm with now, I met them four years ago. We were chatting and talking and then my spine ruptured a second time and I had to go in for surgery and I thought you know what, I'm not worth out to anybody and we lost contact. So I just locked myself away and then one of my friends got me to watch a video around wheelchair rugby league and it took about six months for me to get in contact with him and even though I was doing the work I do in sport around inclusion, I sent an email saying I'm trans, I'm allowed to play, and the coach just said get yourself down. You'd be the same as everybody else and come down. So my friend's wife also used to play. She took me to the first training session and when they brought those wheelchairs out, I just looked at everything and just burst into tears. I wanted to get out that room out and she literally grabbed me by the scruff of my neck and she dragged me back in the room and she joined in with me for a while to make sure that I stayed and I joined in and now, five years later, I'm still there, I'm still playing, I'm part of the first team. Now I'm doing so much more and I get to use that as like a platform to show what's happening for other people and to make sure that they know that they can get involved in sport. I've got a nice little message on Instagram of someone saying I'm a trans boy. I thought I was the only one that wanted to play sport and I've seen you and having things like that and I get emails from all over and that's actually just led to. I've just won an international award with the Emma Goldman and Flax Foundation around inclusivity for women and girls and it just shows that what you can do and go out there and just be good humans and make a better place for everybody.
Emma Goswell: 22:50
And the team you play for now. It's a mixed team, isn't it? So it's men, women and trans people.
Verity Smith: 22:55
Yeah, so I'm the only trans person on my team. Jodie is the only woman on our team and you know what? I'm more scared of Jodie than I am of any man, because Jodie is lethal. And, again, different shapes and sizes. One of our players, Paul I had a photograph sat next to him and Paul's like over six foot and I'm five foot six and the size difference in the two of us. But we're allowed to play together and that's absolutely fine because we're in wheelchairs. If we were in wheelchairs we'd still be allowed to play together, but then if you put the word trans in there, we wouldn't. It's all about this language and who people are.
Emma Goswell: 23:30
I'm sure the irony isn't lost on you that you were being threatened because you were thought of as being a threat in terms of people's safety and yet it was a cisgendered woman that injured you and put you in a wheelchair for the rest of your life.
Verity Smith: 23:44
Yeah, it was a lot smaller. Scrim off. Just one of them fluke accidents, it shouldn't have happened, but it did. Rugby you go on that pitch knowing that things could happen and unfortunately, yeah, it was a much smaller woman and that never gets talked about. And again, trans men in sport never gets talked about. It's always trans women and trans girls and they're bigger and stronger and they've got this advantage. And I've seen trans women play rugby. I've seen a six foot two trans women play rugby on my team with me and she got put on a bum week in, week out because she'd only just started playing. But you know what? She smiled and then girls took her in and she found her space and she found her freedom there and to be able to be herself. And then, all of a sudden, even though we've had policies in place for 20 years, we've never had an injury in rugby from a trans woman. But the only injury is me from a cis woman as the trans person. But that's never looked at, unfortunately.
Emma Goswell: 24:32
Now, I know a lot of trans people, because of all the shit that is thrown at them, basically have really struggled with their mental health, and I'm guessing sport is a really, really good way to combat mental health problems and improve your well-being, is it?
Verity Smith: 24:46
Yeah, definitely. After I lost my parents, rugby was the one thing that I threw myself into. It was the one thing and it was my constant. I knew when my training was, I knew when my games were. I had people that were around me that were able to support me. And that's what's happening with the trans community. Five years ago, we were doing so much better than what we are now. Five years ago, we had policies in place, we had new people joining teams, people were finding their tribes, there were young people being able to find clubs. I used to sign post all the time to rugby, with it being my sport and other sports for young people, and then, all of a sudden, these bands came in place, even though we've had no injuries, no issues, still no actual science on trans people within and especially rugby, which is a contact sport. So now we're seeing transforming band from chess.
Emma Goswell: 25:33
Yes, I mean that makes absolutely no sense to me whatsoever.
Verity Smith: 25:38
Well, most of the bands don't make sense to me, so there is a band in place in rugby, then still, yeah, rugby league and rugby union, and there wasn't even anyone playing rugby league at the time, but they still put a band in place and there was only four trans women in England who played full time because a couple had retired. They even banned the 14 year old trans girl from playing. We're taking people's safe spaces away from them.
Emma Goswell: 26:02
And who are making these decisions and why do you think they're making those decisions?
Verity Smith: 26:06
So some of them are the international governing bodies, some of them are the national governing bodies themselves, and what we're seeing now is a massive uptake from these gender critical voices who are getting involved in these sports spaces without any actual sports background, any endocrinology, any science background, anything. We've seen sports bodies being threatened with legal action. We see pylons when people send surveys out to their current participants and it's just absolutely been horrendous. What's actually been put out there. It's about getting that correct information and listening to the people that are involved, but unfortunately NGBs just don't want to get involved because they seem to think it's too complicated for them. But we've had policies for 20 years and people have been playing.
Emma Goswell: 26:51
Now you work for the brilliant charity Mermaid and I know it's really important to you, isn't it, to work with young trans and non-binary people and get them involved in sports. Why is that work so important?
Verity Smith: 27:02
to you. The work that we've been doing is to make sure that young people know that they can go out there, they can grow into young adults, they can get involved, they can make friends, and we think that sports just about getting fit, are learning the rules, and sport really is so much more than that that we're taking to our adult life. It's teamwork, it's peer support, it's problem solving, and we take that into our adult lives. And if we're cutting that off from a demographic of young people, how are we going to support them already when we already know that adult trans communities are struggling to find work and get support themselves and are missing out? So we're missing a whole demographic of young people and we're going into a future that I believe isn't binary. It never has been binary, so these young people have always existed. It's just the way that the world has pushed them or shut them out. So we need to make sure that they get in the support and they're getting every opportunity the same as anybody else's, because at the end of the day, if we take the word trans away, they're just children. They want to go out there, they want to make friends, they want to try different sports and it should be for everybody, and I wouldn't be where I am today without my sport. I can definitely say that because when I thought I was going to lose my spot after I lost my parents and everything, I wouldn't be here now I did have really bad mental health and I did contemplate not being here. So for a lot of people, that gives them their family and their tribe, as we'd say.
Emma Goswell: 28:21
Were your parents still alive when you did come out as trans, then Were you able to have that conversation with them.
Verity Smith: 28:28
I wasn't. No, they, as I say, they passed before then. So when I came out, I was really worried about what my parents would have thought. So I got in contact with my dad's best mate and my mum's best mate and said look, what do you think my parents would have said? They just said that they'd been proud of me and always taught me to do what's right by everybody else. My grandma said as well that my parents would have been proud of me when I won the first sports award, like five years ago, and things like that. And she just turned around and said look, we always knew you were different, but you just needed to find that for yourself. And my grandma. When I came out as trans, I said to her I waited all these years to have this conversation. You have all these arguments in your head that you're going to put to them. I said to my grandma. I said what would you say if I said I wasn't a girl, I've never been a girl and I wanted to have the top surgery and all that sort of stuff? And she went do I call you Fred now? I walked and walked off. It was like did that just happen? Because she's the most argumentative person in the world and she said nothing and walked off. She's been my big supporter and everything. And when we talk about people not learning pronouns and names, she's the worst. She's in her 80s now and she gets all my friends' pronouns right, but not mine. But she's now slowly ticking it in. I won a national award about in 2018. We did a documentary and it was called Propstar Award. The videoed her and my team at the time. She's live on TV 28,000 people in Twickenham and she's on the big screen and she's like I'm so proud of her and she's done this. And even when we go shopping to Tesco, she's like she'll pay and they'll all look at me. I'll go. She's got dementia, so if you shut me up, I'll show you up. But even though I'm in my wheelchair now, she still takes the mic out on me. She wants to get somewhere. She pushes me out of the way. Oh, she wants to get to somewhere. First She'll put my brakes on and then leg it. She's horrendous.
Emma Goswell: 30:17
But it sounds like you have a great relationship.
Verity Smith: 30:19
Yeah, we have a love hate. I'm 42 now and she's been there at every Barney, everything that's hit the newspapers, the TV, everything. She's been there for all of it.
Emma Goswell: 30:32
So did you decide to not change your name, were you?
Verity Smith: 30:35
called Verity before. Well, yeah. So the laughing joke was my mum called me Verity because it was in a book she was reading at the time and she didn't think anybody would be able to shorten it. So I got called Vez from being about five and then, as I got older, people started calling me V as well, because it was so much easier to shout V or Vez for the rugby ball than to shout Verity. So when I did transition, my two grandparents my dad's mum's no longer with us, but my two grandparents together said look, would you take your dad's name as respect? So my middle name is now Carl after my dad. I did change that for them and that's the only thing they've asked of me through all of this was would I take my dad's name? Yeah, so Verity called Wow. But it's quite funny because a lot of people just shout call at me. Now if I go to appointments, it's like no, it's Verity. And I got a hire car delivered yesterday and my partner and my friend came downstairs because the sort of went who? Because the guy that turns up came. He went oh, I'm looking for Verity, but you're definitely not that person, are you? And don't make assumptions yes, I am yeah. And then his face just dropped and then my partner and my friend stood at the door because there's like, here we go, because I don't back down.
Emma Goswell: 31:41
I bet it does cause some confusion?
Verity Smith: 31:43
yeah, it does. On my emails I have my pronouns is um, he, him. Otherwise, if I turn up with the name Verity, people assume that I'm a tiny little long bill that's going to come walking into a room and I've got a boulder and a beard and I'm coming in a wheelchair. So it's like don't make assumptions about who you're speaking to that's brilliant.
Emma Goswell: 32:00
You are just. You are a walking contradiction that's there to make people think. I think, aren't you really so wonderful, right? I always like to end by asking people for some tips, some advice. You know there will be young trans people listening to this podcast who might want some guidance for someone that's, you know, been through it and come out the other side and is living a really successful, happy life what would you say to them?
Verity Smith: 32:21
yeah, just don't put yourself in a box. Don't try and put a word to your gender or your sexuality. Just be yourself. Just go with that flow. You find out who you are, what you like, who your people are. For me, I came out as a lesbian, even though that wasn't right. There wasn't anything there when I was young. There's no right or wrong way to do something. Just go out there, be yourself. You're young, you've got your life ahead of you and you've got to be your authentic self to be able to live that as free and loving as you want to do. For me. I went out there and found my sport. For other people, that might be a different hobby, that may be a different way of life. Just be who you want to be and don't let anybody else change that. And just don't be forced into those boxes. It's a hard time at the moment, but hard times don't last forever and we're on the wrong side of history. We're going to be there and we're going to be supportive. Things have changed already. Just go out and just be your authentic self. It's the happiest that you can be.
Emma Goswell: 33:21
A massive thank you to Verity for speaking to me and a thank you for all the young trans people that I know he has encouraged to get into the world of sports. You can follow me on x. He is at Verity Smith 19, don't forget. We're on the lookout to work with people who can help us sponsor coming out stories so we can keep on telling the stories that we're so passionate about. So if you know of a business or an organisation that could help us, just go to our website that's coming out stories podcastcom, and click on the work with us tab. We really would appreciate it. Now, next episode you're going to hear from our first ever great great grandmother. Anne came out as a lesbian slightly later in life, after being married to a man and having two children. She's been with her partner for 36 years and says that although her parents were reluctant to accept them as a couple, her own parents were unfazed and welcomed the pair into their home.
Anne: 34:19
My family were totally different. You know, they totally accepted Joyce. We were at my mom and dad's and Joyce was saying something to my dad and he said oh. He said I don't know, you'll have to ask your mother, meaning my mother. Oh, do you know what I mean? And I just thought, yes, that's how it is. They just totally accepted her right from the very beginning.