Emma Goswell: 0:05
Oh, hi, and thank you for choosing Coming Out Stories. It's brought to you by what Goes On Media and I'm your host, Emma Goswell. If you're new to us, welcome. Every fortnight, thousands of people all over the world listen to our stories from real LGBTQ plus people that are guaranteed to educate, motivate and inspire you. Now we'd love it if you subscribed so you never miss an episode. Don't forget to follow us on socials. We are at Come Out Stories on ex previously Twitter and we are coming out stories pod on Instagram. We're also now looking to work with people who can help us sponsor Coming Out Stories so we can keep on telling the stories that we're so passionate about. So if you know of a business or an organisation that would like to help, just go to our website that's comingoutstoriespodcastcom, and then just click on the work with us tab. That's comingoutstoriespodcastcom. Time now for you to meet someone extraordinary. Luma Mufleh is a Muslim of Syrian descent. She ended up fleeing Jordan, where she was living with her family and seeking asylum, and she's a refugee activist. She founded the Fugees Family, which is a non-profit organisation dedicated to educating and helping child survivors of war. Her amazing TED talk on refugees has been watched by get this over 1.8 million people. Do check it out After, of course, you've listened to this incredible interview. Please be warned, however there are really distressing topics like honour killings covered within this that may upset you. So I began by asking Luma, when she knew she was different.
Luma Mufleh: 1:58
I realised that when I was in elementary school I went to a British international school. I had friends from all over the world and I remember being in the playground and my two closest friends, Justin and Michael, wanted to know if Isabella had a crush on them. Isabella was the most beautiful girl in our class. I had a crush on her and they asked do you think she has a crush on me or me? And I was like, what about me? I knew not to say it out loud, why can't it be me? And then they asked me to go ask her and I was like, and I'm the idiot that went to ask her, asking her, and I was hoping she'd say not them you. And she ended up picking Justin and I was heartbroken.
Emma Goswell: 2:46
I was hoping she'd say none of you. I hate all of you. That's what.
Luma Mufleh: 2:50
I was wishing right, but I realised I wasn't even a choice or an option.
Emma Goswell: 2:56
And I guess, growing up in Jordan. I mean, I talked to people in the UK and the US who say they didn't have any gay role models growing up. But you really would have had no gay role models. You didn't even have a word for it, right?
Luma Mufleh: 3:07
Yeah, we don't have a word for it in Arabic. There was no visibility whatsoever and you have to understand this was before the internet, so we didn't have access to anything. All media was censored, so everything was controlled. What came in and there wasn't visibility on TV shows back then, or movies In the 80s, there was nothing and I thought there's something wrong with me. I remember talking to my grandmother at one point when I was really struggling in my teens and not describing it, not saying anything. But I asked her I was like do you think Allah made a mistake on me? And she's like Allah doesn't make mistakes. And I felt there was something defective and it wasn't until I read an article in Newsweek magazine about Martina Navratilova and her being out. That gave me that lifeline.
Emma Goswell: 3:56
And she really was one on her own, wasn't she? In terms of visible lesbians in the 80s I can't name any more I can't name any.
Luma Mufleh: 4:03
Which men were out then? I can't name anyone in the 80s.
Emma Goswell: 4:06
Well, in the 80s I had people like Boy George and Andy Bell from Eurasia and Jimmy Somerville from the Communards.
Speaker 3: 4:13
So a few pop stars. A few pop stars.
Emma Goswell: 4:15
But certainly women. No, Katie Lang in the 90s maybe, but they were in the 80s when I came out. Absolutely nobody Katie.
Luma Mufleh: 4:23
Lang and Ben Lissa Etheridge. But like no one Like athletes were closeted yeah.
Emma Goswell: 4:28
Absolutely was, but at least I was in a country where it wasn't illegal. I mean, what happens to gay people in Jordan, people that are caught being gay?
Luma Mufleh: 4:36
So the death penalty or Islamic law is still practice. You can get 100 lashes for your first offense. This is honor. Killings are still prevalent. So if you dishonor your family, your family can take it into their own hands and have no legal ramifications for that.
Emma Goswell: 4:55
And they won't be punished or put in jail. No, they won't be at all. Oh my God, it's just hard to believe, isn't it? And that is still the case today.
Luma Mufleh: 5:04
Yeah, it's still the case in the Middle East. It's still the case in parts of Africa. America's gotten better, at least with legal protections. Culturally, you know, it's still developing.
Emma Goswell: 5:16
And do you remember when you were there, people getting lashed or people getting killed for their sexuality?
Luma Mufleh: 5:22
No, I mean, like I told you there wasn't a word for it. I mean, I remember like women getting killed because they were accused of a extramarital affair or sex outside of marriage. I mean, even in 2021, this father pounded his daughter's head in the streets because Römer had it she had sex out of marriage and he pounded it. She bled to death and then he sat down and had a cup of tea. His son brought him a cup of tea and this was in Amman, jordan, not in Saudi Arabia, not like in Jordan. And then, a few weeks later, a husband gouged out his wife's eyes because she was looking at another man. I feel physically sick. And so the violence against women. Right, this is violence against women and there are a lot of activists there that are speaking up and there's been progress since. You know I was there, but it's still terrifying. Like I get knots in my stomach thinking about it.
Emma Goswell: 6:19
So I'm guessing was that the main reason that you left the country, Because you knew that you could never be a true self there.
Luma Mufleh: 6:26
Yeah, I mean, like why else would someone leave their home and their family and their country, like everything that they're familiar with that made them who they were? Unless they're not safe, unless it's life or death, and that's what most people do they leave because it's life or death. It's not easy to leave your country.
Emma Goswell: 6:45
So I'm guessing you had no conversations with your family or with anybody about your sexuality while you're in Jordan.
Luma Mufleh: 6:52
No, I remember I did come out to my guidance counselor my senior year. I had applied for colleges, you know. I thought, okay, if I get in, that's it, I'm going to get out. And I applied early decision to Brown University and got rejected. And I found that out in December. I rode my bike to his house and I fell apart. And he's American. When I told him he's like we need to get you out and he had had experience in the least of other students of his he knew immediately and he's like you'll get in. And I did get in and I was in my head it was either Brown or everybody else was going to reject me.
Emma Goswell: 7:31
So you were only really applying for college in America because you knew you'd be safe there.
Luma Mufleh: 7:37
Yes, gosh. Yeah, I mean. My parents gave me the option for the UK or America. I had too many cousins in the UK but I knew I couldn't do that.
Emma Goswell: 7:47
you know there. That's a brave decision then, isn't it? But I guess you're obviously lucky in the sense that you were from quite a privileged background, that you were from a family that could afford to send you to another country to be university educated, I guess.
Luma Mufleh: 8:04
Yeah, yeah, I mean I was very lucky. I grew up very privileged. I had an incredible education. I went to British and American schools. Growing up went to really good college Money was never an issue. I could navigate the United States Like. I knew the language at least really well, had to learn the culture more. But yeah, I consider myself very lucky to have been in the position where I could leave and where I could apply for asylum, where I could afford a lawyer.
Emma Goswell: 8:30
And at what stage did you think I need to apply for asylum then? Was it as soon as you got there, or did you leave it whilst doing your?
Luma Mufleh: 8:37
course, yeah. So I knew I needed a college degree because if I didn't have that it would be really hard, and so my senior year I applied. So I knew my college was paid for and it was also like my parents would expect me to come home after college, right. And so I knew the timing would have to be around that, and it was the day after my college graduation I had my asylum hearing.
Emma Goswell: 9:01
Yeah, incredible. And at this stage you still haven't come out to your parents then, and so I'm presuming at some point you had to have a conversation with them and say Mom, dad, I'm not coming home, and this is why.
Luma Mufleh: 9:11
Yeah, I had it after I got the decision. So 30 days after the hearing I got that I was recommended for approval and I remember going to the mailbox and getting this envelope and opening it and just sitting on the pavement and you know, it says you have been recommended for approval. And I just started sobbing yeah, because it was like sorry.
Emma Goswell: 9:35
Well, no, I can see you getting upset just putting yourself back in that situation where, in one sense, you must have felt huge elation that you were going to be safe and you could live your life as an out and proud lesbian. On the other hand, that sadness knowing that you weren't going to go home ever again, yeah, it's like that one moment is like the most heartbreaking and happy Like it's just yeah. How do you even begin to process that? I can't even imagine I'm still trying to process it.
Luma Mufleh: 10:06
Yeah, yeah.
Emma Goswell: 10:08
It's a lot, isn't it? And at this stage were you, were you able to live an out life while you were a student?
Luma Mufleh: 10:16
Yeah, I was out in college. It was great. Like I've been closet my entire life came to. College was out dated. I had lots of fun, it was great.
Emma Goswell: 10:27
What was that experience like being on a date with a woman for the first time?
Luma Mufleh: 10:31
It was fun. It's like oh, like, this is great, this is. It was so much fun, like I felt normal, like I didn't have to hide, we could go out, we could hold hands.
Emma Goswell: 10:42
Where was the college? Whereabouts?
Luma Mufleh: 10:44
Smith College in Northampton, Massachusetts.
Emma Goswell: 10:48
So good for a gay scene. There is it. It is, it's a women's college it's.
Luma Mufleh: 10:52
yeah, it was, it was very good, Fantastic.
Emma Goswell: 10:55
So you finally got to meet other LGBT people. I'm guessing that would have been a big revelation for you.
Luma Mufleh: 11:01
Yeah, like meet them, like not only college students, some of our professors were out. Like the first time I went to a gay club I was like whoa, what is this Like? It was so incredible, like just seeing like so much love and camaraderie. Like you walk in everybody, you don't have to explain yourself, everybody understands what it takes for someone to walk in there and you know, you don't have to explain yourself. And the dancing is fun and the drag queens were fun and it was just yeah, yeah, wow, garsh, what a world away from what you'd come from.
Emma Goswell: 11:35
I bet you just felt like you'd like landed in paradise, did you?
Luma Mufleh: 11:39
I mean kind of like I'd gone out to clubs like with my cousins in England and Europe, but there were straight clubs and I never felt comfortable. I was always guarded. I was like, oh, I don't want to dance, you know, like it's just. And there I was like, oh, this is what it's supposed to be, like, right.
Emma Goswell: 11:55
Yeah, so you've had well three years of living the high life and going to gay clubs and dating, and then you have to have that conversation with your parents. How on earth do you even build yourself up with something like that? I don't know.
Luma Mufleh: 12:11
I kept delaying it, but then I had to make it because they were expecting me to fly home the next day, and so I called them the night before and said I wasn't coming home and said I was gay. And yeah, it didn't go over. Well, I'm the oldest of four siblings, so two of my siblings were home at the time. The other one was in university. Yeah, it was really hard. Were you expecting it to be hard? Were you expecting no? I knew it was going to be hard, like I knew they would not be OK with it. I knew they were going to cut me off, like I knew. And it's not. They're good people, but the culture and the religion they grew up in didn't allow them, so they're quite strict Muslims, you'd say. No, I think they're no like, not for there, like we practice Islam, but it was always your choice, right, like so if you wanted to pray, you prayed. Your accountability is with Allah, not with your parents. I didn't have to veil, you know, I still wore shorts. We went to Europe for vacation. We fasted. You know we helped the poor, like it was more by action, not dogma. I mean, like my grandmother wore a hijab but she let a little bit of her hair show. It was only to the elbows and knees, you know, and I'd ask her, I was like other women are like dressed, you know, like cover their face, and she's like like we live in the desert, like I'm not stupid, like you're not going to cover, and she's like nowhere in the Quran does it say cover up like that, except in prayer. It says dress modestly and other households. That conversation never happened, right? So I feel like they were more progressive for the region.
Emma Goswell: 13:49
But homosexuality was just a step too far. You think yeah? It was way too. Yeah, and this was how many years ago. Now this is 97.
Luma Mufleh: 13:57
So almost 30 years now, like 26 years ago?
Emma Goswell: 14:01
Yeah, 26 years ago, and have you had any contact with them since?
Luma Mufleh: 14:05
Yeah, so after I came out and cut me off, my grandma was the only one that stayed connected with me, but everybody else I had like over 51st cousins. I was close to all of them. Wow, none of them called. But seven years later, reconciled with my family, my dad and mom, my sister came over and then it was, you know, ok. For a bit, you know, they would come over and then, in 2011, I told them I was getting married and then we had second round of being disowned and I couldn't figure out. Is it because it's a woman or because she's Jewish? But it was only my dad this time. Like he's, but my mom would like she's. She didn't want to go through that again. And then him and I reconciled 2019, 2018. So racist. Yeah, yeah, my daughter. She's nine now, but she was four at the time. And she she asked if my dad was dead. And I was like, well, what do you mean? And she's like, well, we talked to Tete, which is my mom, her grandma, and Namo, ali and Sayin, my siblings, and she's like, but we never talked to your dad, or you don't say anything about your dad. And I was like, no, he's not dead, we just don't talk. And I knew I would have to have that conversation with her. I didn't think it would be that young, but kids are very aware, right? And I said no, like they weren't OK with me being gay. And she's like what? And I said, well, I married mommy. And she's like they hate mommy. I was like, no, no, that's not it. And I was like do you want to talk to him? And she called my bluff and she said yes, and so I picked up the phone and called and leitollock ended. They had a great conversation and I was like what just happened here? And then last year we all met in Turkey. So the first time in 26 years where the entire family was together and I was there with my wife and kids. Yeah, it took that long.
Emma Goswell: 15:57
And he must have wanted to have a relationship with his grandchildren.
Luma Mufleh: 16:00
Yeah, yeah, I mean he lost them and I think he softened. You know, like over the years he's also seeing how oppressive Jordan is. You know he's very much a patriot, but recently he's like this is not okay. Like my mom was always like more sympathetic, but he's become a lot gentler and I became a parent, so I had to soften up as well. You know, for a long time I had to vilify them because that was the only way I could survive.
Emma Goswell: 16:28
But that must have hurt when they didn't really want to support your wedding. I mean, that's just should be the most joyous, wonderful occasion, particularly for people in our community who didn't grow up thinking that they'd ever get married to someone of the same gender. So to have them not really support you or be there for your wedding must have been pretty tough, I reckon.
Luma Mufleh: 16:46
It was hard, like I mean, you know, you look out and you're like yeah, no one's here.
Emma Goswell: 16:52
Yeah, but your new chosen family were. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you had a lot of friends, the people that you'd met in America, who were there supporting you.
Luma Mufleh: 17:01
I mean that's what it is right. You have to start having a chosen family and those bonds are stronger because they're unconditional love, right?
Emma Goswell: 17:09
And you said before we even start this conversation. You know there are several coming out, aren't they? As LGBT people were constantly coming out. So parents is the big one, but actually there was another very important woman in your life, other than your mother wasn't there who took you in and looked after you when you moved to America.
Luma Mufleh: 17:25
So, like after I came out to my parents was disowned like a hit rock bottom. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do and so I ended up in North Carolina working for an aunt of one of my friends. She owned a diner there and all my friends were like you're going to the South, like to this, like little town in the middle of nowhere, like that's probably not the best thing. And I was like I just wanted, like I didn't know what.
Emma Goswell: 17:47
I wanted. You had to go somewhere and they were offering you a job. Yeah, yeah.
Luma Mufleh: 17:52
And so I went there and I started working me right away, like I was washing dishes, you know, flipping burgers, cleaning the bathroom. Her name was Miss Sarah and, like I remember, we were sitting down watching TV one night and I knew I had to come out to her Like I was like you're always constantly coming out, it's exhausting. Right After I came out to my parents I never wanted to lie or hide it and so we're sitting there and I was like, and I was like, oh, is this going to go the way it went with my parents, because she's a Southern Baptist? And I said, miss Sarah, you know that I'm gay. And there's like this pause, I was like waiting. And she's like you know, that's fine, honey, just don't be a slut.
Emma Goswell: 18:31
She sounds like a slut.
Luma Mufleh: 18:34
Yeah, yeah, and it's like yep, like that's okay, just don't you know, like her moral values was like just don't sleep around, and I was like okay, I got it, I won't do that anymore, you know.
Emma Goswell: 18:44
I've done that at university.
Luma Mufleh: 18:47
I'm going to stop that. And it was just like beautiful, because I call her my American mom. You know I celebrated the holidays with her family and she welcomed me in and didn't judge me and took care of me and made sure I got out of bed to work, you know, because she knew I needed that physical labor to heal, not to sit around moping and in a fetal position, and I mean I was working 12, 14 hour shifts and I loved it and she knew that you were a Cleming Asylum then, but maybe didn't know exactly what what fall. Yeah, she didn't until that moment, and then I filled her in and she became even more loving and protective. Yeah, she's a beautiful woman.
Emma Goswell: 19:26
What an amazing human being. We need more Miss Sarah's in this world, I think.
Luma Mufleh: 19:30
We do, we do. I think you have a make. And then to t-shirt just don't be a slut, you know, do what you want. Just don't be a slut. Anymore, anymore, anymore.
Emma Goswell: 19:42
Yeah, been there done that, got the t-shirt yeah, brilliant. And then you said the third coming out was really connected to your work, because you know we should say that after all that you've got your college education. You then clean dishes for a while, as we've all done, and waited tables and all of that sort of stuff, but now your work is really centered around working with other refugees, because you're an asylum seeker yourself, right?
Luma Mufleh: 20:07
Yeah, I mean my work centers around working with refugee kids mostly and their families. Started off as a soccer team, I started off as a football team and grew into school and now we have multiple schools in multiple states that welcome refugee children and their families with open arms, kind of the way Miss Sarah welcomed me into her home and into my new country and yeah, so here I was football coach and then head of school, working with kids from all over the world. And you know, like I mentioned, I got married and it was over the Christmas break. Came back in January and first week of school one of my after school coordinator texts me and she's like some of the kids have seen the photo of your wedding and I was like what? Like we're so careful. I was like oh no. And yeah, it was inevitable, like there's no way you know the way social media is and so I was really nervous about coming to school the next day. A lot of my players came from part of the world where I came from. You know we have Syrians, iraqis, Sudanese, congolese, liberian I mean conservative cultures. I was sick to my stomach coming in the next day and what sort of age are these kids Luma? 11 to 19. Right, okay, yeah, secondary school, yeah, and I remember my three oldest players, my captain, the leaders of like the whole group and the whole group was over 100 kids at that point. Wow, they like were ignoring me all day. They were angry head down and I was like, all right, we got to talk about this, like. So I bought them into my office and I was like guys, what's going on? And they were quiet and they're like I pushed again. They're like you know what's going on. And I said, listen, like I never lied to you. Like you've come to my house. Like you know, I've been dating, like they. It was just never talked about. Right, I was like I met most of you when you were 11. Like, what did you want me to say? Like I'm your coach and I'm gay. Do you know what I mean? Like we're always having to state it. And I said and honestly I was terrified you would react the way my family reacted and I told them for the first time. I told them what happened, like they didn't know any of that. And then one of them looked up to me as, like we're not like them, and the other one's like we just wanted you to tell us we didn't want to hear from anyone else. And I'm so mad you didn't invite me to your wedding and I was like, right, that is a better reason to be annoyed, isn't it?
Emma Goswell: 22:34
Yeah, I'm not annoyed that you're gay, but I'm annoyed I didn't get an invite to the wedding because that looked fun, yeah.
Luma Mufleh: 22:39
And I was like, well, I would never invite you to my wedding because you're my player. Like that's not right. And then you know like we talked a little bit more about it and they're like, oh, now you got to tell everyone. And I was like what? And they're like, yeah, you got to go talk to because everybody's talking about it and they need to hear from you. You know, as a team that's what we always did. If someone was struggling, I went like we all shared together and I was like I'm going to go in front of 100 young men and women, wow. And so I went down and told them and have the same reaction, like why didn't you tell us? And they're like, well, we knew. But now we know. You know like they're relieved that. They know like there's no questioning it. You know, and I mean some of the families weren't happy with it. Really, I mean I had a couple of families that were not. I know one family pulled their child out of the school because of it, because they had a gay football coach Coach and had a like I was head of the organization, like I was right. But then there's this one fan like so one of my family support staff members was at a family's house later that week and Sudanese family, muslim conservative, and the dad's like so I hear, I hear that coach Muslim like she's he couldn't even say it she's with women and he's like she's. And the person's like she's gay and he's like yeah, and he's like is that true? And she's like yeah, he's like well, that's not okay. And he started going off and then his wife came in and she said you need to shut your mouth. This woman is taking care of your son better than you have. Stop it. Like we left our countries because of this judgment that happened there. We're not doing it here. And like I'm good friends with him now. Like it, you know, and I think it forced some conversations to happen and I didn't realize how important it was to be visible in that community as well.
Emma Goswell: 24:20
I was going to say it sounds like you have really been a role model and you've really started some conversations in so many communities that may not have talked about it. So you know, you, you should. I hope you do feel incredibly proud of yourself really.
Luma Mufleh: 24:35
I am. I am some days more proud than others, but yes we said there's three coming out stories.
Emma Goswell: 24:40
I feel like there's about five really, because we've not even talked about the TED Talk yet. I mean, you got asked to do a TED Talk about your amazing work with refugee children, but you came out in that as well and that I have, by the way, just been on YouTube. 1.8 million people have watched that. That's a lot of people in the world that know that you're a lesbian, right.
Luma Mufleh: 25:00
How was?
Emma Goswell: 25:01
that experience for you.
Luma Mufleh: 25:03
Yeah, it was the most bizarre experience like to actually be asked to give a TED Talk, to come out on that stage and know how many people would watch it. I lost five pounds that week. I was so anxious. I hate public speaking and that's the gold standard of public speaking. You weren't allowed to use notes or teleprompter. You had to know it cold and I called my mom. I called her. I said hey, listen, I'm going to give this talk. It's going to be live streamed on this day to select a few, but then it's going to go out. And I'm coming out. It's like why do you have to say it? And I'm like mom, I'm going to say it. And she's like well, what are you wearing? And I was like jeans and some sneakers. She's like you can't wear jeans and sneakers. Like, if you're going out in front of like over like this might be watched by over like a million people. I still wore jeans and sneakers, but she got hyper focused on what I was wearing and I thought it was important. Like, just like, could I be someone's Martina?
Emma Goswell: 26:00
Could you be someone's Martina. That is so brilliant, isn't it? Because you're right? If you hadn't had Martina, you would have thought you were the only person in the world, yeah.
Luma Mufleh: 26:09
I don't think I'd be alive. I'm going to be honest with you. I don't think I'd be alive if it wasn't for her. Have you told? Her that I don't know how to get to her.
Emma Goswell: 26:21
Yeah, she's an icon. How do you get to her? I don't know, I don't know Lesbian mafia.
Luma Mufleh: 26:26
We need to find someone that can get to her right, that's what we need.
Emma Goswell: 26:29
Yes, one thing that we haven't talked about yet there is the book, because you know you have, as you've just described, had the most incredible life story and you know a real shining light of someone who's completely picked up the pieces of their life and started again, and you've documented it in a new book. So do you want to tell us the title and tell us a bit about it?
Luma Mufleh: 26:54
Yeah, the book is titled Believe in them and it chronicles, you know it has a lot of the stories I just shared with you, including my coming out to Messera, my parents and my players, but it also has a lot more stories about being on the pitch and being new to a country and it's all through stories. It's my story, my players' stories, their families, and I want to humanize their experience so people understand and are more compassionate and caring and understanding of what it takes for someone to leave their home Brilliant.
Emma Goswell: 27:27
And at the time of speaking it's only been a month. But what sort of reaction have you had to it? Because, again you know, you're putting it out on the world stage that you are a gay woman.
Luma Mufleh: 27:38
I mean, I haven't had any backlash. Malala recommends it.
Emma Goswell: 27:43
Oh yes, sorry, we should say this. Your close friend, malala Yusufsai, has said that it's a brilliant read and quite an incredible book. Let me read the exact words here. She says that you are a gifted storyteller who delivers provocative, indelible portraits of student after student making leaps in learning that aren't supposed to be possible for children born into trauma. Wow, so she recognizes all the work that you've done with children in very difficult situations.
Luma Mufleh: 28:11
Yeah yeah. It was like incredible to get that endorsement from her and I hope a lot of people read it. It uses the power of sport to build community and belonging and it's like the most unlikely story. You have a gay Arab Muslim leaving a group of refugee kids from all over the world, some of them from warring factions, and everyone coming together to make a better life for each other.
Emma Goswell: 28:35
Now, I always like to end with a bit of advice for people, but I feel like I should make it even more specific for you in terms of would you have any advice for anyone Not just coming out, but for people? I mean, there will be people listening in countries across the world where it's illegal to be gay. You know, this is the beauty of podcasts People can listen pretty much anywhere. So if people are listening in countries or situations that are very difficult for them to come out, what bit of advice do you wish that you'd known back when you were struggling and in the closet?
Luma Mufleh: 29:04
That there are others like us, like we're everywhere, like don't ever think you're alone, and every single one of us has been through what you're going through. Like we've got your back and you know our home is your home. But yeah, you're not the only one and it will get better.
Emma Goswell: 29:22
Incredible, Luma. Would it be great if more politicians and world leaders said things like we've got your back and our home is your home. We can but dream. Thank you so much, Luma, for talking to me. You can get her book now. It is called Believe in them One Woman's Fight for Justice for Refugee Children. And do check out her TED Talk as well. She really is an inspiration. Next week we've another sporty guest. Verity is a trans man who now plays wheelchair rugby after a bad tackle left him with a spinal injury. He told me he was brought up by his grandma and she had a surprising reaction to his coming out.
Verity: 30:02
My grandma when I came out as trans. I said to her I've waited all these years to have this conversation. You have all these arguments in your head that you're going to put to them. I said to my grandma. I said what would you say if I said I wasn't a girl? I've never been a girl and I wanted to have the top surgery and all that sort of stuff? And she just turned around and she went do I call you Fred now? Well, I walked and walked off. It's like did that just happen Because she's the most argumentative person in the world? And she said nothing.