Emma Goswell: 0:05
Oh hi, I'm Emma Goswell and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. We're a podcast from what Goes On Media and we pretty much do what the name suggests. We bring you real life stories from right across the LGBTQ plus spectrum. Every single fortnight Now I've sat down with people from all over the globe to hear about those intimate moments when people have discovered who they really are and when they felt brave enough to share that information with a friend or family member. Now we've made this podcast for five years now and it's a passion project, really, that we have totally self-funded all of this time. But to keep going we now really need to find sponsors to help it continue. So if you or your company would like to work with Coming Out Stories to help us carry on, please find out more by going to our website, comingoutstoriespodcastcom. That's comingoutstoriespodcastcom. Right time to crack on with this episode Now. I've interviewed a few people whose life story reads a bit like a film script and Jide who you're about to meet definitely falls intoexpects and, most of all, expect to be motivated and inspired by a man who never lost his faith in God or in himself, despite the awful things he's been through. If I have one wish for this episode, it's that it's listened to by the government here in the UK, who still haven't after years of promising banned conversion therapy. Listening to G-Day's story of going through conversion therapy is nothing short of harrowing. I do urge you to listen, though, and although he's from Nigeria, you may be surprised to hear that his conversion therapy for his sexuality happened in London. Right, it's now time to hear from the one and only Reverend Jide Macaulay, or, as he likes to be known, the happy, holy homosexual.
Jide Macaulay: 2:13
I identify as gay, cisgender male, and what else can I say? And your pronouns are he who, my pronouns are he, him. But of course, you know, my favorite pronoun is mama. Everyone in my life, you know, in my congregation, call me Mama Jide Reverend Mother. And there's a long story behind it, because I also struggled with the impact of patriarchy and toxic masculinity because, yeah, so I gravitated towards my mom's spirit, so to say, my mom's natural care, and because also my dad, who is still living, my mom is late, my dad, who's still living, was very, very hash. He's very homophobic. Growing up I felt like I'm often systematically pulled out for punishment a little hash punishment. I don't know why, but I mean in adulthood I did ask my dad why do you always beat me way too much or excessively? He certainly has no answer. You know my dad was very violent, especially when he's disciplining the children.
Emma Goswell: 3:27
Have you got lots of brothers and sisters?
Jide Macaulay: 3:29
Not lots. You know, I had two brothers One is late and one is still alive and I've got two sisters as well At home. You know, I think that the mentality of how Africans discipline their children literally includes corporate punishment, lots of beating.
Emma Goswell: 3:49
It's a tough upbringing.
Jide Macaulay: 3:50
It is. It was a tough upbringing but I still believe that my parents loved all their children. But I think when it comes to the issue of my sexuality it was very much later. It was much more later thing, you know.
Emma Goswell: 4:07
That wasn't relevant to the beaters.
Jide Macaulay: 4:09
No, it wasn't relevant to the beating at all, so well, let's talk about growing up gay then.
Emma Goswell: 4:13
I mean, when you were a child and growing up in London, presumably did you realise that you were different from other kids and that you were going to grow up to be gay.
Jide Macaulay: 4:22
Actually I didn't grow up in England. That's the other thing. Yeah, I was born in England. So probably under the age of three years old I was back in Nigeria with my parents and of course I grew up in Nigeria. So growing up gay for me did not resonate. However, the knowledge of difference. I've always known the difference, when I was about five years old and I think it was to do with things like play. I mean, children grow up and children are very, very clever and you know, especially in what I've noticed in Nigeria, we have our own play structure. We play doctors and nurses and husband and wives and all of those things. But I think that the realisation of my difference is that I often have an envy when the girls are copulating with the boys. I want to move them aside and be that. But I have since understood that you know, being effeminate or gravitating towards effeminate as a boy is not necessarily signs of homosexuality. It's signs of knowing that you're different. So what many people now call queer Because when we understand binary that society has put on us as heteronormative ideals, when you veer away from that, then you begin to notice differences. So as a young child I would say maybe it's more age-appropriate. At that time I understood my difference. You wanted to play and be the nurse, I wanted to be the nurse. So and again, when it comes to play like sports, I prefer soft play. I didn't like the rough play. You know, I like to take care of myself. I like to be neat. I'm very organised.
Emma Goswell: 6:09
And I'm guessing is it a fairly macho environment growing up in Nigeria. Men have got to be men, stereotypical men.
Jide Macaulay: 6:17
Nigeria is very macho environment, very patriarchal in nature. So the understanding is that boys have to be tough. Boys don't cry. You know, boys take the lead and it can be quite exhausting for any child that is not interested in that.
Emma Goswell: 6:35
I think it was quite like that in the UK in the 1960s and 1970s. You know, and still is to some extent.
Jide Macaulay: 6:41
Absolutely so, because I think that many cultures are enshrined around the power of men. Even, you know, in Christian religion, theologically you know, we hear more about men's achievement throughout the Bible, but we're forgotten that women exist at a time.
Emma Goswell: 7:00
So at what stage did you realise? Did the penny drop? You know, it wasn't just that you were different, it was that you were gay.
Jide Macaulay: 7:09
Age 13,. Clearly, at age 13, I think that I've become very clear. Even in the obscurity of the knowledge in Nigeria, I have come to know that there's something deeply different about me, that I am same-gender, loving, and of course, you know I was having a lot of feelings, you know to. You know boys, my age and I was highly experimental as a young person. I wanted to find out more. But I think that also in terms of knowledge, there is not enough literature, there is not enough persons to go to. I mean, when I was growing up, you have to, either you have to go to the library to look for the information and you kind of ask the librarian about homosexuality. This is something that you have to do on your own.
Emma Goswell: 7:58
Well, you wouldn't have had any role models. Am I right in thinking it was, and still is, illegal?
Jide Macaulay: 8:05
I mean, it is still illegal in Nigeria, unfortunately. But talking about role models, it's actually nonexistence. I mean, people don't talk about homosexuality, neither do we talk about heterosexuality. Heterosexuality was a numb. A boy holding a girl's hand is considered okay. The boy will be celebrated as a castanova, you know. He will be celebrated in many ways. But I think that the absence of same-gender love, you know, visible to young people in the most positive way, is also part of the harm. You know that's caused many people. I had to live in fear. Now, some of the ways that I got to know about my sexuality was actually through reading the Bible. So, yes, when I came across, you know, bible passages such as Leviticus Leviticus 18, 22 and Leviticus 20, 13, clearly says that if a man has sex with another man, it is an abomination and that they should be put to death. Now, that is violence there already. So having to tackle that as a young person was quite damning.
Emma Goswell: 9:16
And you were clearly brought up with the Bible, yeah, and so to read that as a young gay person must have been incredibly upsetting and hurtful.
Jide Macaulay: 9:25
It wasn't just upsetting, it was literally criminal. You know it set me on a path of rejection and denial, but of course you know my sexuality didn't change. What I've often realized is that you know, we can go through a period of time where we can suppress same sex feelings, but we kind of which I guess you did, didn't you? Yes, of course I mean it was something that I did for many, many years. But the thing about his there's often quite a beautiful thing about my growing up as well, because I think around about age 14, 15, I had a boyfriend in Nigeria, really yeah, but I didn't know he knew he was my boyfriend Because we spent all the time together. I just love being in his presence. You know, it was this extremely beautiful brotherly love where you know we hug, we are in each other's presence, but there was actually no sexual Right. You know that kind of, because I was really comfortable. It's someone that you know in Nigeria we say kourikosun, meaning that I cannot sleep without seeing you, and that kind of friendship was really deep. You know, we go to school together, we will meet up and then go together, come back to within most of the time, at least for a period of about a year or so until we part ways as young people. But of course, that difficulty didn't start because, having been raised in a very conservative Christian family, being gay was certainly something that was not discussed and of course, me finding out the scriptures didn't help at all and there were no religious leaders, including my parents, that I can go to and discuss how I am feeling and how it is bothering me. But and of course you know, as a young person as well, I was bullied a lot, you know, because I wasn't feminine. I wasn't feminine growing up and I had big foot, I had big lips and people would taunt me with all of these things, you know. And yeah, there are times where you know the bullies will seize my shoe from the beginning of the day and I have to wear a footed and the teachers didn't intervene, you know. No one intervened to help the situation.
Emma Goswell: 11:39
Why didn't they intervene? Did you try and report it?
Jide Macaulay: 11:41
It's difficult to report bullying in Nigeria. I mean, it's very, very difficult. So, and there are so many things that there were missed opportunities. A lot of young people do not get the opportunity to be coached around anti-bullying behavior or how to report bullying. A lot of the teachers are also bullies as well. If they get inside with the bullies, I will be surprised.
Emma Goswell: 12:05
This sounds like a really tough childhood then. I mean you're being told that you should be put to death because you like men, You're being bullied, no one's supporting you. That's a tough, tough upbringing right.
Jide Macaulay: 12:18
I think it was tough because there's also the psychological impact and you know, I mean I've almost often said that you know the Bible should be locked away from anyone under the age of 18. I mean, I read the Bible because my family one were a Christian family and we often take part, you know, in Bible quizzes and Bible trivia and things like that. So we read the Bible for information, because we want to make sure that we are winners in my family. So when we go to all this Bible competition but at the same time, when you're reading the Bible as a young queer person and you're discovering passages and verses like this that you cannot discuss more broadly for a better explanation, it's difficult. I mean, I, as a young person, asked lots of questions but I didn't get answers.
Emma Goswell: 13:05
Well, this is interesting because I think you are the first person that I've interviewed on the podcast who's actually wearing a dog collar. So clearly you have gone on some big journey in terms of re-contextualizing the Bible and rethinking the Bible and reassessing what it means. So tell us a little bit about that journey.
Jide Macaulay: 13:26
Thank you so much. Of course, my dog collars, because I've been praying this morning already I've had time of prayer online. But I think that the reality is that, not just the fact that I was born into a Christian family, I've also had a desire from a very young age around about age 13 as well to become a Christian minister. My dad is a Christian minister. That was not necessarily the reason that I am a Christian minister. I've always wanted to be a Christian minister in my own right, but, of course, getting to know who I am became very difficult because I've come to understand that there are certain tick boxes or there are certain criteria for someone who's going to be a minister. You have to be my understanding, even in line with my culture, the African culture you have to be a married man. But I was doing a lot of ministerial work even before I was married. I was providing relationship counseling when I was a very young teenager To grown people that were married. I was providing marriage counseling and prayers. So I think that sometimes there's a misplaced list of criteria and priorities for ministry, but, having said that, I've always had the desire to be a pastor, a priest.
Emma Goswell: 14:42
But to someone like me who doesn't have a faith, I find it really hard to understand how you would accept that faith when that book tells you that you should be put to death. To me I can't square it.
Jide Macaulay: 14:57
This is why we're having this conversation today. I believe and I think that it is not the book that is telling people to be put to death, it is the understanding of the book, the interpretation of the book, and unfortunately, the book has been misused, mistranslated for many, many years, if not centuries. Now let's be clear the two verses in Leviticus that I quoted was not intended or meant for Christians, not is it meant for anyone today. The Israelites were coming out of Egypt, when they've been in bondage for 400 years. They have been completely depleted. But in order to repopulate the Israelites communities, they were asked not to have sex with men, and it was only for that particular group of people, not for anyone else. And let's be mindful, there are other communities that existed outside of the Israelites. For example, the Bible says that God gave them the promised land, the land of Canaan. People were living in Canaan before they were moved there.
Emma Goswell: 15:53
Probably gay people as well.
Jide Macaulay: 15:55
Probably gay people, and people need to understand that the Bible is open to questioning. The Bible is open to scrutiny as well, because if we go back to say, for example, the creation story, we are often told that God created Adam and Eve, as if God only created two people ever. So we're surprised that when Can took a wife, he took a wife outside of his own family from another group of people that existed. No one has told us about them or no one has actually raised the fact that these people existed.
Emma Goswell: 16:31
Yes, there are questions, aren't there? You must get sick of that homophobic charm. It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve, but that's been thrown at gay people for a long time, isn't it that little?
Jide Macaulay: 16:41
ditty. I no longer get sick of it. I just say to them you know, god made Adam and Steve and Madame and Evelyn as well. So I think that the reality for the creation story is to let people know that God created human beings, diverse people, diverse race, diverse cultures in places around the world. And I think that the Christian understanding is also to ensure that we continue to talk about the unimaginable love of God for God's creation, because the Bible also tells us in the book of Psalms that, for we are fearfully and wonderfully made, god has made every single individual beautifully made, and that's the message that I often want to highlight.
Emma Goswell: 17:27
I mean, the hatred that we see today is going to say it's made some people very homophobic and transphobic. There wasn't a way, or she?
Jide Macaulay: 17:35
I mean it has, I mean unfortunately. But I think that we also need to focus on the inclusive gospel. You know, at every Sunday, especially during these ordinary times in the Anglican church, you know, in my parishion, we remind people that Jesus said Jesus gave us two commandments. He says love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and all your soul. The second one is to love your neighbors as yourself, and Jesus says so many things about love. Jesus even said that what good is it to love those who love you, love your enemies, because when people love you, it's guaranteed they can never unlove you. But I mean, the biggest challenge for Christians, even those homophobic Christians, is that if they would take one day to love the LGBT, non-binary, non-confirming person, it would change their life.
Emma Goswell: 18:24
Have you had any problems being an out gay Christian? Have you had problems being accepted within the church as a gay priest?
Jide Macaulay: 18:32
It was a journey of acceptance as a gay man, I mean, obviously I was as communicated multiple times in my primary church communities because of my sexuality. Because when you were back in Nigeria, Well, I mean, obviously I didn't come out as gay until I moved to England and I was then part of a church community here in England. You know, for several years before I came out as gay, and even at that time I was already in a relationship with a woman. I got married. Then we had a child yes, before I came out as gay. And of course, when I came out as gay, words went back to the church and I was as communicated from the church.
Emma Goswell: 19:13
Right, well, let's talk about this period of time then. So how old were you when you finally came out? I'm guessing that little lot of years of hiding yourself because you're in Nigeria, because of it was illegal and nobody talked about it and all the rest of the issues.
Jide Macaulay: 19:28
I think the transition from Nigeria to the UK was in my late teens, early 20s, and I think I got into a relationship with the woman who became my wife around about when I was 20 years old, so I got married to her when I was 24 years old.
Emma Goswell: 19:45
Because you thought it was the right thing to do, because you knew you were gay.
Jide Macaulay: 19:48
Because one I thought it was the right thing to do and because I have been through a period of fasting and praying away my homosexuality with the hope that God would kill me. And when I finally had a girlfriend, I naively believed that God had performed the miracle that since I have a girlfriend and I'm no longer gay, that is one of the most. That was one of the most I can't even find the word and it was one of the most personal, deceptive thing that has ever happened to me, because I didn't know better, I did not have the grace and the opportunity to sit down with somebody to provide me with appropriate pastoral care in understanding my own sexuality.
Emma Goswell: 20:37
Wow, that's a lot, isn't it? So you thought you could pray the gay away.
Jide Macaulay: 20:42
I thought I could because this is one of the teachings in my community. You know I've had many people you know religiously. That says you can pray away, you can fast. I fasted for 40 days and 49s. Listen, when Jesus Christ, after his baptism, he went into the wilderness for 40 days and 49s to pray and he quote unquote was able to conquer the devil, so to say. I believe at one point that my homosexual feelings was really the devil's work, so I needed to fight against it. So fasting and praying for 40 days and 40 nights was the answer. But I felt that when I had a girlfriend that I'm no longer gay. But it didn't last long because you know, I had a seven-year relationship with this girl and the first four years we were boyfriend and girlfriend and then the last three years we're legally married and then we had a child together. Throughout the whole seven years of that relationship I was in deep trouble mentally, psychologically and emotionally because I was struggling with my sexuality.
Emma Goswell: 21:49
And were you talking to anybody about it?
Jide Macaulay: 21:51
Unfortunately no, and that was the. It was like a sinking ship. You know, I was so, so depressed, but I was not able to communicate my depression and other for me to get out. I think it was at the point of real depression that I had to sit my ex-wife down to say look, there's something I want to tell you that I'm gay. And of course you know she she couldn't handle it. She said I can't compete with this, and she was right. There's nothing that she can give me emotionally, mentally or even sexually that you know she's a woman and that hasn't worked for me or it couldn't work for me. So we parted ways and unfortunately, our relationship became a little bit more acrimonious because she got upset. We were very young when we, when we were, when we started dating.
Emma Goswell: 22:44
So was she the first person you told then?
Jide Macaulay: 22:47
Yes, she was the first person I told Wow, so that was really difficult.
Emma Goswell: 22:51
I bet that was very difficult to just build up to it and say the words.
Jide Macaulay: 22:54
It was difficult. But I didn't even know how we started the conversation. I just knew that there was something I needed to talk to her about. But that reality for me is that you know, I've always known that I'm gay and you know, when people hear my story, I did not enter into a relationship with her to hide who I am. I truly believe that. You know, being a Christian and being African requires me to be with a woman. You know, if I knew what I knew today, I certainly wouldn't have been in a relationship with a woman, because I want to have a fulfilling life and be very happy as a gay man.
Emma Goswell: 23:33
So do you ever see her or your son again?
Jide Macaulay: 23:35
Unfortunately not. I mean my relationship with my ex-wife and my son has taken a very different turn. I'm no longer in touch with her at all. I'm unfortunately no longer in touch with my own son as well, and I think that that reality is because my son had developed very, extremely homophobic attitude and in as much as I get a lot of homophobia from the world, I don't want it from my own child. But I always say this that you know my heart is open with love to my child and anytime he's prepared to have this conversation, very, very loving conversation, not to do with sexuality, I'm quite open to that. But I think that the reality for many is that we forget that. You know having a biological child you know that doesn't want you, doesn't make you a bad person. You know it's quite painful, but at the same time I have gained so much more and I know that sometimes people say that you know blood is thicker than water, but I still believe that I am raising other young people. You know who are queer, even some that are not queer, who are in my life as well. You know, sammy, who understand. You know the need of parenting and and and and being a child or someone that is nurtured and and mentored by an adult gosh, it's interesting.
Emma Goswell: 24:55
I think I've spoken to a lot of people who have been rejected by their parents, but I think you're the first person I've spoken to where it's the other way around, you know, and either way, it's tough and it's it's, it's, it's hard, it must be really hard.
Jide Macaulay: 25:08
I mean, unfortunately, I've been rejected by both a parent and my child, so my dad has rejected me. My father is extremely homophobic. My son is homophobic. I mean, these are two men on either side of my life, so it's not easy, but I mean I think I also want people to know that I am not in a pain, in a place of pain. I am fulfilled, I am very happy, I love God, I love my ministry and you know I want people to know that. But I know that relationship with family is very important for many.
Emma Goswell: 25:42
But rather than it drag me down, I I have lifted myself of literally above the pain that my son and my father has inflicted on me it's so good to hear that and I've spoken to so many people and it's kind of what I wanted to do the podcast really, just to show that, you know, on the very rare occasions where it does go horribly wrong and you are rejected by family, people end up leading very happy gay lives, you know, and they find their own family. And you've really done that, you know, with your church and with all the people that you've met. So that is really good to hear. Let's just rewind slightly. So when you got divorced from your wife, how did your Life change? Did you start opening up and telling friends and telling other people?
Jide Macaulay: 26:28
No, actually, after the divorce and separation and divorce, it wasn't easy to tell people I I Certainly had queer friends, you know, for most of my life. But my relationship with my queer friends was very strange because this is the days we didn't have mobile phones. So a lot of my gay friends you know if you're gonna socialize, you know they'll call the house and then if my wife Pick up the phone, she hand the phone to me, then I'm on the phone, just a few words you know about oh, we're socializing this weekend or we're going out, you know, to a picnic or we're going out to a party or something like that, and but I saw my queer friends developing in a way that I wanted to. But here I am stuck in a wedding, in a marriage, so to say. Now, of course, I think that after coming out it wasn't easy. I think after coming out I went into a very dark place again, because the question that hit me when I came out is not I've come out, what does a new gay do? Yeah where do I go? So now, this is the time to now find where the resources are. As a Christian boy who's gay, throughout my upbringing we were told that the club places are the place of the devil. I've been brought up in Christian denominations where smoking and drinking is an abomination.
Emma Goswell: 27:56
So you weren't gonna go in front of the nearest gay club then?
Jide Macaulay: 27:58
No, no so so basically, when I started, even started to go to the bars and the clubs, they didn't fit in with my identity as a Christian because everyone smoked. This are the days if anyone's listening to this, they can actually tell how old I am without telling my age. This was the days where we were allowed to smoke inside the club.
Emma Goswell: 28:20
I remember it. I remember You'd wake up in the morning and your whole bed and your hair would smell of cigarettes. Even if you didn't smoke, you would just smell of it. Yeah, it was horrible.
Jide Macaulay: 28:30
But I got the rude at Ola, but I think that again the club spaces, the bars. I didn't drink alcohol, I didn't smoke cigarettes, so it was really depleting for me. It didn't help. Now the other thing is also trying to find the communities. As a black gay man, I was finding the communities of white gay men and where were you living in the UK? I was in London you were in London I was in London. So and you still couldn't find a good gay community we're talking. I was separated and divorced in 1994. At that time there were no well-organized groups of black queer people. There was none in 1994, I couldn't find any. There were small groups, like within groups. There was a group called Big Up that was like within a larger group of GMFA, for example. I couldn't find them Now. Of course, for a couple of years I didn't go to church and I decided to go back to church again. I went to church in East London. When I found this church I was very happy. It was a large Nigerian community, but I decided to keep my sexuality away from the church. So there's a second time I'm doing this double take where I am now living deliberately or intentionally living a secret life. So I'll go to church as a pre-men, proper Christian, but away from church I'm gay. So you can see the double standard and the double life. And of course, when I'm in church and people make comments like, oh, judy, you're looking beautiful, you're close as well, I am I probably think, oh my God, are they making a past of me? Things like that. And it became really uncomfortable. Unfortunately, four years after I've really immersed myself in this church community, I found out that I was gay and I was excommunicated. This time, worse than the first one, I was subjected to conversion therapy yes, where I was physically beaten, and the physical beating was in order to beat out the homosexuality.
Emma Goswell: 30:38
This was in London in the 1990s.
Jide Macaulay: 30:40
This was actually 2000. What? This is actually the year 2000 now, because we're now in the notice. I think that for me, honestly, when I look back at the physical beating I agreed to it. I submitted myself to it because I was concerned that if I didn't they would not help me. They cannot help me and I was extremely broken and emotional where I was even appealing and begging them to help me get rid of my homosexuality. Now imagine that space of time would have been about six years, six, seven years after I came out as gay.
Emma Goswell: 31:13
So how old were you now?
Jide Macaulay: 31:15
In your thirties. I think, yes, I was probably like maybe what year 2000,. How old am I? Good, I can't even work at my own age anymore. I think I was about my mid-thirties now, Wow.
Emma Goswell: 31:27
And you're someone that had already tried to starve yourself and pray the gay away years before, absolutely, so you kind of knew that it didn't work. I guess you were just desperate to fit in, weren't you?
Jide Macaulay: 31:38
I was desperate to fit in and of course all of these things just didn't help. Now I think that for me the other thing again is that after I left the church again, I carried on with my life. If I go back just a couple of years, between 1996 and 1998, I started to do the theological training at my father's church.
Emma Goswell: 32:01
All of this still didn't put you off religion.
Jide Macaulay: 32:03
It still did not put me off religion, that's quite incredible, do you know?
Emma Goswell: 32:06
I mean, you were physically beaten by members of your congregation. Were you injured?
Jide Macaulay: 32:12
I wouldn't say I was injured, but of course it was painful. It wasn't just the members of the. These were the leaders of the congregation. So it was a prayer time. We will pray. There's something called spiritual mapping when we have maps of London on the wall and we lay hands on different areas. So we pray with areas where we've known for drug, you know, cartels. We pray for areas where there's high sex work. We pray for areas that has knife crime, gun crime. But I was shocked when there was an area like Soho for homosexuality and we were invited to pray against the spirit of homosexuality in this area. And I was in the room, I took a seat because I didn't think that I could pray so and the people came to me and said Jiddy, why are you not praying against the spirit of homosexuality? And they said, in this moment I didn't have the burden, I'm tired of your homophobia. I didn't have the burden. So again, that put me in conflict, in loggerheads with these leaders, and you know it was time for them to start to do the radical healing process for me.
Emma Goswell: 33:24
So we're doing this interview in 2023 and our governments still haven't made conversion therapy illegal. What do you think of that?
Jide Macaulay: 33:34
I think it's rather unfortunate that the UK government, especially this current administration, you know, in 2023 have considered that banning conversion therapy is not a priority. It has been a priority for a long time and I think that it puts the LGBT people's lives at risk, especially within religious spaces, and I think it's important that it's not just the you know, not just the society, not just the non-religious spaces, but religious spaces as well. Unfortunately, within religious spaces, they believe that they can stand behind the pulpit or behind a secret book, you know, to promote this level of hatred. Conversion therapy indicates that something needs to be corrected. For lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, non-conforming, non-affirming people, there is nothing to correct.
Emma Goswell: 34:30
Exactly. There's nothing to correct in fact, I will say amen to that.
Jide Macaulay: 34:34
Thank you so much. There's nothing to correct. I think that what we need is to correct the mindset of those who think or feel that queer people need all these changes. But you know, as a Christian myself, it's something that I struggle with how people think about queer people. But I still believe that God is merciful, god is kind and God is wonderful and that's why, for many years of my own ministry, I continue to emphasize that. You know, gay means God adores you, god accepts you. I like that, god affirms you, god annoys you. I believe that people should come just the way they are to God and that is so profound If we are not able to be ourselves. You know, within safe communities, and the church in particular, a lot of people will travel across town where they will find drugs, they will fall into abusive behavior. You know they will fall into abusive relationships and you know they will find themselves homeless and destitute. But in any community it is important that people are embraced just the way they are.
Emma Goswell: 35:48
And you've gone on to set up your own ministry, set up your own very inclusive church, haven't you? What can you tell us about that?
Jide Macaulay: 35:55
Thank you. I mean House of Rainbow is an inclusive fellowship. I'm also a priest in the Church of England, you know, in Manchester now and in Manchester as a douse. It's very inclusive, you know. To the large extent, however, house of Rainbow has been a great part of my journey for the last 17 years Wow. Right now, the primary purpose for House of Rainbow is to support the pastoral care of reconciling faith and sexuality for LGBT Christians, and House of Rainbow also started in Nigeria, in the very place where I've been told that I am an abomination. Many people are not. We started in Nigeria 17 years ago Now. For me, that reality was so important because the grace for House of Rainbow is the ability to support people, support families, support religious leaders on that journey of understanding that LGBT people are also children of God.
Emma Goswell: 36:54
And how are you able to do that then, if it's still illegal in Nigeria?
Jide Macaulay: 36:57
I mean the laws are illegal. The love of God is not illegal. The love of God is free for all believers. You know, and I think that you know, people feel that they have the authority of God. Let's be clear no one has the monopoly to the presence of God. Everyone can choose how they relate with God.
Emma Goswell: 37:18
And how has that gone down in Nigeria then it hasn't gone down well.
Jide Macaulay: 37:21
Let's be realistic. It hasn't gone down well. In fact. You know the state, church and many big organizations you know have actually attacked, you know, the idea of House of Rainbow in Nigeria and unfortunately, nigeria has inherited the British colonial laws as well, which has impacted on behaviour.
Emma Goswell: 37:42
Oh, that's true. We're very aware it's our fault, don't worry. Yeah, it's not good, is it?
Jide Macaulay: 37:47
It hasn't impacted the attitude of people in Nigeria and, unfortunately, in 2014, the Nigerian government introduced what is called Same Sex Marriage Prohibition Act, which goes further to prohibit gay marriage in Nigeria. But, of course, nigeria being a society, in my opinion, or something that doesn't even understand human sexuality, let alone understand how to react to it, you know react very badly. In Nigeria there is something called Jungle Justice and that's where ordinary people take the law into their hands. So if it's perceived or rumoured or confirmed that someone is gay, you know vigilantes in Nigeria can pick them up, beat them up, if possible, kill them, and we have had, you know, unexplained death. There's a high rate of suicide in places like Nigeria. I mean, a few weeks ago, about 200 LGBT-identified persons were arrested at a party. All they want to do is dance, but because they were queer-identified, they were arrested, you know, paraded in front of the world media, humiliated, just because there is a law that proposes that it is wrong. And I think that, again, nigerians generally do not understand how to interpret those laws. It is same-sex marriage prohibition. People dancing are not getting married. It's not illegal to dance. I mean, house of Rainbow in Nigeria suffered because of the attacks, the threats, but we believe that there's nothing in the Nigerian constitution that stops queer people coming together to pray.
Emma Goswell: 39:28
So do you go back there regularly?
Jide Macaulay: 39:30
Unfortunately, no, I've not been to Nigeria since 2012. I would love to visit Nigeria. I would love to go back to Nigeria and still do much more important work in Nigeria. Yes, but I'm very concerned for my safety and for the safety of others who may hang around me in Nigeria. But I think that the reality for many is that, unfortunately, Nigerians still hold or Nigerians generally still hold views that homosexuality is not permitted in the country and that it's an abomination.
Emma Goswell: 40:03
Including your dad, who still lives there, I presume.
Jide Macaulay: 40:06
I mean the story with my dad is even more worse. My dad colluded or was a partner to the same-sex marriage prohibition bill in Nigeria. My father worked with the Nigerian government to make sure that there is a law against homosexuality in Nigeria and he celebrated it quite publicly in the media. And I was quite surprised because when I moved back to Nigeria in 2006, it became clear to me that my father is working with the Nigerian government because he felt that it is his responsibility as a religious leader to advise government to ensure that there are laws. And then my dad was probed about his involvement with this particular legislation and also when he was challenged about the penalties of 14 years imprisonment with heart labour and also conversion therapy, my father suggested that if his son were to get shock therapy, I would come back to my senses.
Emma Goswell: 41:12
Wow, so is he publicly admits that he has a gay son, does he?
Jide Macaulay: 41:18
There's no doubt about that, because I was even out public in the press. So there were numerous headlines in Nigeria, you know, with my photograph on the front page. You know with headlines like Abomination Inside Lagos Church, webibuton, upside Down. There were just so many press statements. But of course you know it was linked. You know every newspaper would mention my father and myself. I think one of the first breaking news was in Wall Street Journal, new York. The headline was Antigay Build Device Family and it was two interviews. The journalists had interviewed myself and my dad, and this was really early on. This was actually early 2007. And of course, you know, following that breaking news, I was also present in the Nigerian Parliament when they had the public debate on the 2006 Antigay Bill, where I had stood up in the Nigerian Parliament to defend the LGBT community and indeed to appeal to the Nigerian government not to make this bill into law. But as the time progresses, you know there was a change of course. I unfortunately had to flee Nigeria at the end of 2008 because my life was threatened, my home was vandalized and if I was in that home when it was vandalized I would have been killed. But of course you know, I mean, I don't know what role my father is playing in this and that is why, since 2012, when I've heard more about my father's involvement, you know, with the bill, I decided not to go to Nigeria because, on one hand, I cannot trust him. Nigeria doesn't have a system of justice. If I were to die in Nigeria, there would be no autopsy, I would have been horribly buried and you know, people say, oh, he just died, he died, and that is a concern. That's why I've always said that I do not take my privilege as a British citizen for granted, because I knew that. You know, once I was in Nigeria, I was able to leave Nigeria, just go to the airport, get a plane ticket and leave. But that wasn't, that wasn't the intention when I moved to Nigeria to start the Minish of House of Rainbow.
Emma Goswell: 43:36
I mean, and you must be so worried for other people who can't have that privilege to get on a plane to the UK.
Jide Macaulay: 43:41
I'm very, very worried because when I left the country, a lot of people were displaced, people lost their job because of the association with House of Rainbow. A lot of photographs from our services, even video recordings, secretly recorded, were circulating on social media, you know, in the press, and a lot of people were evicted from their homes, rejected by their families. It was quite painful. But having said that, you know I've never stopped the work of House of Rainbow. There was a time, up to about 2015, that we had about seven to nine worship group in Nigeria, but they had to go underground. But at the moment, we actually have zero presence in Nigeria, apart from online, and it's simply because a lot of the leaders who were leading the group in all the seven to nine places you know were also displaced. There is not enough funding to support them. Many of them have moved abroad as well, to safer environments, which we fully supported as an organization. But of course, that also leaves the gap of those who are still in the country that are yearning and looking for spaces. But of course, you know when the pandemic happened, you know, a few years ago, we started to organize online. So now House of Rainbow have an online presence. We have a weekly meeting every Sunday at 7 am, using Clubhouse as a platform, and we get people from all over the world, mostly from Nigeria, who come into that meeting every Sunday for their own nourishment and well-being.
Emma Goswell: 45:12
Brilliant. What did your dad actually say to you when you told him you were gay? Did he find out or did he have a conversation?
Jide Macaulay: 45:19
I think the conversation with my dad was very different when I separated and divorced my ex-wife in 1994, it was three years later that my mother asked me directly if I was gay. And I think by that time I was ready, because it's like three years after my divorce. So I told my mom yes, I'm gay. My mom responds it will shock me. She said why didn't you tell me that for the last three years she has been praying for another wife when she could have been praying for her husband? Now, honestly, I mean, my mother seems absolutely hilarious. But again, my relationship with my mother was incredibly amazing because not only did she accept me, she also accepted all my lesbian friends, my gay friends, you know. So we literally spent time in my mother's house. My mother's house became like the queer space in Kilburn in London. Now, of course, it was then another five years after my mother had asked me that my father had that conversation with me. No, they were not together. My mom lived in England, my dad lived in Nigeria. But you see, the irony of it is that when I separated from my ex-wife, I really wanted to reconnect with my dad in a way like a father-son relationship. I wanted to have that difficult conversation with him. But I remember in 1996, you know, when I met with my dad, rather than courageously have the conversation about my sexuality and the deep trouble that I'm having, we started to talk about my theological development and then I just enrolled for theological studies at his school. So the next two years I was doing a lot of theological studies. My father ordained me in 1998 in his ministry. So it's been 25 years, you know, to this year, that I was ordained at my father's. My father was so proud and happy that his son had been ordained, following in his footsteps. Now, what my son and the ordination council did not take into, did not recognize, is the deep pain that I was going through whilst I was developing my theological studies as well. And of course you know, a lot of things that I was taught in my father's theological training were also deeply harmful. So I couldn't embody the role of a minister after my ordination. So when I returned to England you know I will only wear my clerical color only when it's necessary or when I'm going to an event I did not develop a church following the ordination and my father's ministry. Now, in 2001 or 2002, I was introduced to the Metropolitan Community Church and it was at this church that I started to ask questions about reconciling my faith and my sexuality. And of course I would say, look, I'm already ordained. Can I transform my clerical credentials to this ministry? And because I was learning more about God's love for queer people in the Metropolitan Community, it made sense to me, and the more I was learning, the more I really also wanted to have this conversation with my father. In 2003, my father was visiting England as an orphan nurse and this was the time that he sat me down to ask me questions about my sexuality, because he's been hearing things. Now, of course, you know when an African father especially is talking to their child, you do not talk back. Has my father spoke with me? His words were harsh.
Emma Goswell: 49:01
Did he ask you outright were you a gay?
Jide Macaulay: 49:03
No, he just told me that he's heard that I'm gay and it's an abomination. It's a disgrace to his name and its family. He's got reputation to protect and that I should stop. I should find myself another woman and stop this nonsense. Those were his words.
Emma Goswell: 49:17
And what did you say back to him?
Jide Macaulay: 49:19
Nothing. Just tears, just tears. I was broken. I was broken. I mean, it was deeper. I wish that I can share with you verbatim what I said because, again, I struggled just to put all of these things behind my mind, but I think that they were very harsh words. They were, you know, it was more about him than about me and what I might be going through or how I understood my sexuality. A lot of things that I talk about today, about how I discovered my sexuality at 813, I think my father should have been there, you know, for me to say my child, no, that's not what the Bible is saying, you know. I mean, if my father knew that I was gay at 13, what would he have done? He found that I was gay in my 30s. So I'm a grown adult, married and divorced with a child, and he now want to have a say in my sexuality.
Emma Goswell: 50:15
I think that is actually misplaced priorities at that point, you know but I think your mom had the right idea, didn't she praying for a husband? Absolutely. Did you ever get a husband?
Jide Macaulay: 50:26
I'm still waiting for that, to be honest, but I think that I mean that reality for me is just that. I think that my father, as a theologian, himself an academic, is like missed opportunities, because he could have had an extremely revolutionary opportunity to even help Nigerians and Nigerians to dress the east of homosexuality if he had looked at it from a theological perspective, even if he did not agree with homosexuality. But let's have a symposium that will discuss this, let's have a theological research and then work with people on both sides of this. But he was quite clear. He had one position and is not prepared to shift. I was hopeful, I was expecting, but you can't. You can force the horse to the river, but you can't force it to drink. So when my mom passed away in 2013, my father blend my homosexuality and my mother's death. What? Yeah, my father has said things to my son, you know, about my sexuality that made my son turn his mind against me. My father had said to my family that they should never go to my church because it's the church of the devil. You know, I mean. Things like that are painful to hear from your own parents, but at the same time, I still have the deep love for my father. I just want to let go you know of that pain because I don't think that I want that to be part of my own reality.
Emma Goswell: 51:53
You've gone on such a journey. I just can't, I'm, I'm, I'm blown away by your story and I'm just so impressed that you are such a happy, healthy homosexual now and you know you. You're thriving and your church is thriving. Maybe we should end with some advice for other people who may be growing up with intolerant parents or children. What would be your advice be to them, people who are growing up and being told that they're wrong, being told that they're an abomination?
Jide Macaulay: 52:23
I think, before we get to that intolerant, I think there's something that's very, very important that I also want to share. You know, in the same year that my father was challenging me about my sexuality in 2003, this is actually around about summertime. That same year, in January, you know, I went for a routine blood test and a health check and the result came back that I was HIV positive. And of course, you know, up to that time you know I have lived under the rhetoric of homosexuality is an abomination and that God is punishing homosexuals with HIV. So the moment anyone come at his gay, the first thing that people say is that you must be HIV positive as well. And unfortunately that's not true. Hiv is a virus. So I was exposed to the virus. No, no doubts about that. But I think that you know the diagnosis also changed the way that I was thinking, and I'm my own journey and be mindful, this was 2003. Three years later, I moved to Nigeria to start House of Rainbow. I did not let the virus stop me in developing. I have also since had multiple theological degrees. I have been ordained as a priest in the Church of England.
Emma Goswell: 53:39
You've not let it stop, you quite right.
Jide Macaulay: 53:41
I'm not allowed to get in the way of the progress that I'm able to make in this life and contributed life. But having said that, you know, I mean I want to say to people that it is important that we stand up as our own individuals. You know, find your tribe, find your family of choice, your DNA, family, are amazing, but sometimes they may not necessarily give you what you need. Now, of course, you know I've been through so many achievements, so many milestones, that none of my families were there, but my daughter, my godson, you know their family, you know my community, were there. I mean, if I'm doing anything today and I go to the gay community, I will get a lot of love, you know. So I want to say to people that you know, regardless of what you go through, regardless of how people respond to your sexuality or even your HIV status, know that there are people that truly care for you and love you. And of course I'm not saying that we could stand on our own. No, we have incredible communities. You know I'm part of. You know the peer support in this community here in Manchester. I'm part of the HIV peer support. I provide HIV mentoring to others. You know I receive that peer support back in different other communities. So I think it's important that we find a space so that you know we don't feel depressed or lonely. And, of course, if anyone is wanting or willing to continue their faith as a Christian Muslim, there are communities that are progressive and it's the same as well. If you do not want to follow any religion, it is okay. You know you are equally loved and I don't think anyone should be forced into anything they don't want to. It's so important that people are aware of who they are. For me, it's my blackness, my sexuality, my Christian faith, my HIV status has literally been a source of joy to many and information to many. I'm very grateful to God that I have the ability to flip someone's depression around. You know, especially if you're gay, I've had families come to me, parents come to me to talk about the queer children, where we've had deep conversations about the love of God for their children and queer children being a gift from God. You didn't have a choice in that. You know you unwrap the gift, you accepted the gift and the gift turned out to be a trans child or a lesbian child or a gay child. It is your gift. You're not going to try away now. You know you need to love it or learn to love it, because the challenge is that we live in a society that is so negative that they want to blindfold us from all the positivity. I mean, when I have some of my peer support group and you hear queer men, you know, talk about their relationship with their fathers and their mothers in most positive way, it's incredible, you know. So I think that society is just deeply afraid of something that doesn't exist. Society creates their own fear. I mean, I've had those challenges, I've had those achievements as well, and I'm always grateful that you know anyone can look at me and say, if Jide can do it, I can do it too.
Emma Goswell: 57:03
Incredible Jide Macaulay there, and I recommend following him on Twitter as well, where he is @RevJide R-E-V-J-I-D-E, and, whether you live in Nigeria or not, you really should find out more about his organisation. All you need to do to do that is go to HouseOfRainboworg. What an incredible and brave individual. I don't have a faith, but if I did, I would pray that conversion therapy is banned in all countries across this planet of ours. Don't forget if you want to work with Coming Out Stories and help sponsor us, please get in contact, and you can do that via our website, comingoutstoriespodcastcom. Please follow us on all the socials as well. We are at Come Out Stories on X, previously known as Twitter, and on Instagram we are Coming Out Stories Pod. Stick around for the next episode, though, because it's also truly international. I called up with Luma, who is a refugee activist. She now lives in the US after she sought asylum there when she fled her home country of Jordan because of her sexuality, she ended up becoming a football coach and then set up a nationally acclaimed network of schools for refugee children.
Luma: 58:19
One of my family support staff members was at a family's house and the dad's like so I hear that, coach Luma, like she's you couldn't even say it she's with women and he's like she's, and the person's like she's gay and he's like yeah, and he's like is that true? And she's like yeah, he's like well, that's not okay. And he started going off and then his wife came in and she said you need to shut your mouth. This woman is taking care of your son better than you have. Like we left our countries because of this judgment that happened there. We're not doing it here.