Emma: 0:05
Hi there, I'm Emma Goswell and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. We're a podcast from what Goes On Media and, as the name suggests, we bring you real life stories from right across the LGBTQ plus spectrum, and we do it every single fortnight. Oh and, of course, we are on all the socials, so give us a follow. We're at Come Out Stories on ex previously Twitter and Coming Out Stories pod on Instagram. Now, as I said last episode, it is more important than ever to be sharing trans stories. So, with another trans trailblazer this episode, you're about to meet Moe Ari Brown, who uses they, them or he him pronouns and identifies as non-binary transgender. Most spoke to me from Atlanta, georgia, but they're originally from Chicago. They're a relationship therapist and they're currently working with the dating app Hinge as their love and connection expert. What a great job title. I love it. Right, it's time to meet Moe.
Moe: 1:06
I grew up on the South Side of Chicago. For anybody who's not familiar with the South Side of Chicago In the, the US, a lot of the descendants of African slaves, so people who were once enslaved, a lot of us lived in the southern part of the country At a point in the turn of the 1900s, I would say around the beginning of that century a lot of black people whose ancestors were prior slaves but they are now free, migrated to the north to get jobs in the industry. You know, steel workers, meat factories, you name it. There were jobs like that in Chicago. So I'm the descendant of people who traveled to the north during what we call the Great Migration, to like build some roots in Chicago. So I can't say that I've been, my family had been in Chicago for a long time because I'm originally from the area that I live in now, which is Atlanta, georgia. But my life growing up in Chicago was definitely, I'd say, the working class family. I'm the youngest of six children. I was born with an identical twin sister. My mother is a reverend of the Christian faith and our beginnings were centered primarily in that, I would say, spirituality, trying to ascend our circumstances. So my parents believe a lot in education. They wanted us to get quality education so that we could do more than they'd done. Essentially and I'd say that that informed a lot of my early experiences in Chicago really just wanting to do things that would make them proud. I knew that they struggled a lot to try to provide for all of those kids and I just really wanted to do anything that would help me to make them proud. Emma: 2:52
So you're saying you wanted to do stuff to make them proud. I'm guessing was it quite religious upbringing, did that? You know? Making them proud? Did that mean sort of towing the line and going to church and you know believing? All these things as well. Moe: 3:05
It meant all of that Absolutely. I didn't grow up knowing anything, pretty much outside of that, so it was just that Christianity was what it was. It was all that I pretty much knew growing up, and I think that that's pretty common for black people in the US. Like, the church played a really important role in the liberation of slays, and so the black church has a very prominent role in our history, and so that was the same for me. But it also meant that I grew up in a space where queer people were extremely invisible. Fortunately for me, my experience in the church was not that queer people were being talked about in a negative way. It was just that we weren't really visible. We weren't being talked about. I say fortunately because it's unfortunate to have us being talked about in these horrible ways, but still unfortunate for us to not be highly visible. Emma: 3:59
Did you get a sense, though, that homosexuality was a sin? Did. Were you getting those messages? Moe: 4:05
I would say I was getting those messages from other places, but sparingly. It was almost like queerness wasn't an option, because we were so invisible to me, like I was being kept from this other world, and so it was not until college at some point that I experienced people openly talking about sexuality and gender and queerness. Then I was like a whole new world, if I could say that. Emma: 4:34
You sang it, babe, you sang it. Moe: 4:38
And, like I, was surprised by all of the options that we actually have for who we can be. Emma: 4:46
So this was by the time we got to college, so before that, because queerness was hidden from you so much, did you have a sense of your own identity? Did you know that you were attracted to your own gender? Were you questioning your own gender? What was happening when you were at school? Moe: 5:02
Yeah. So now that I look back, I had these early experiences of me questioning gender kind of constantly. So, growing up, I remember hitting puberty, like probably around 11, 12. I had breasts starting to form and I was like I do not want this. And I remember having conversations with my mom and expressing like in tears, like expressing to her I do not want this. She was taking me bra shopping, I think, and I was like I don't like that, we're doing this, and she's like one day you're going to be okay. Like that was her trying to gently caress this upset that I was having. And I remember that vividly because now that I look back on it, I have had this feeling my entire life. But I didn't know. Or I remember conversations with my dad and being like I could dress like my brothers. I have four older brothers, like I can dress like them, I could wear boys clothes, I can play basketball with my brothers and he's like you could. But so much of my identity was wrapped up in being an identical twin, so people expected us to be the same, they expected us to do dance together and all the things that they expected of girls in that environment, and so I didn't really get the opportunity I would say in many instances to step outside of that. Emma: 6:19
Well, that's interesting having an identical twin, isn't it? So are you very close. Do you have an inseparable bond or do you feel very sort of different to your sister, because obviously you know you are? There's obvious differences, aren't there? Moe: 6:31
Yes. So I would say that we have a really close relationship and it's been work over the years to evolve together, to go through the separation of like, oh wait, we are different people with very different identities and still a fine space in our relationship. To love those nuances and differences has been like intentional work between the two of us, but I also think it speaks to the bond that we already had as a foundation. Emma: 6:57
So was she one of the first people you discussed your identity with, then I'm guessing you're probably closer to her than most people. Moe: 7:04
Yeah, I would say my sister and my best friend from childhood, who I've been friends with since we were seven. I came out to both of them as bisexual first and then transgender was years later, but they were certainly the first people I told. Emma: 7:21
And how did those conversations go when you first came out as bisexual? Moe: 7:25
They were great. Fortunately for me, I was. I came out to my best friend. I remember her saying vividly like one she just was like I can't unsee it, like OK, that's who you are. And then two, she just was like grateful that I shared with her. And I remember feeling so affirmed by her response and her celebration of me and her gratitude that I shared with her. It really reframed how I expected those experiences to go. In the aftermath of that I was like this is acceptance, this is all I should. Emma: 8:01
And obviously, as you were growing up, attracted to men and women and non-binary people and did you have relationships? Do you have relationships at school or as a teenager? Moe: 8:10
Yeah, growing up in a, I would say, somewhat conservative household, I was not even going to go near dating until I was like about 16, 18. My parents had already been clear like we want you to focus on your education. So when it came time to like start dating, I had many people asking me to be dating them or explore dating for years prior to when I had my first boyfriend in high school. But I was like very clear like I want to make my parents proud, I do not want to rock the boat. And so the person I end up being in a relationship with in high school actually identifies as a gay man now. So we could laugh about this. Emma: 8:52
What a pairing. I love it. Moe: 8:54
Right, Absolutely, Queer people found each other. So it was a really great relationship though, because it was a space where I felt held and we could explore conversations around like expansive identity. Like he'd ask me questions like OK, what if you found out that I was gay and I was like I love you the same you love me, so we just love each other. But it really taught me that love can be expansive. So I'm grateful for that early relationship and had you told him you were bisexual. I don't think I really understood myself as bisexual at this point. I just knew that we were talking openly about the what ifs and the curiosities on his part and I was like I love you however you are. You are. Emma: 9:44
What led to actually coming out as as trans or non-binary. I guess it was a long process within yourself, I guess to sort of understand who you were. Yeah. Moe: 9:54
Yeah. So after coming out as bisexual in college actually, I Began to immerse myself in everything LGBTQ plus, as one does like you're, like, I'm queer, I'm here, like get to know me join all the societies, get to all the clubs. Absolutely. That came about after, like you know, having various like romantic, intimate relationships with Women in college, I began to understand myself as bisexual and join more community groups. And then, as I progressed into grad school and became a therapist, I was starting to work more and more with the LGBTQ plus community and the visibility, the access I had to the community Greatly increased, and so I became aware of transgender people around this time, and From the moment that I became aware, aware of someone that was transgender, I was like this is me. It was this instantaneous Confirmation of my life story and all of these moments, these nudges of discomfort, dysphoria, as I know it, now Started to make sense and I began to pursue that further in my understanding of that through support groups, therapy, community. Emma: 11:10
Gosh, that's interesting. So you hadn't really put two and two together when you were a child. Then you were sort of having these experiences of you know, getting upset, going bra shopping, but you have yeah. Susten your head what was going? Moe: 11:21
on no, because I didn't have access to the language. I just had these experiences, but they were very separate from meaning, almost. It's like you can't make meaning of something when you have no visible Representation of what that even means in your society. Emma: 11:37
Forgive me for asking your age. I didn't have to say your exact age, but what, what sort of decade were you sort of growing up? Moe: 11:42
and so I was born in the early 90s, so I am in my early 30s as we're having this conversation. Emma: 11:49
Okay, yeah because I was back into trans people that you know we're coming out in the 1960s, I imagine it's very very. There's a lot of water that has gone under the bridge and you know you would have had access to the internet and a lot more information resources than, but it sounds like, despite all that being out there, you hadn't really accessed it or found your people yet. Moe: 12:11
No, you know, I think for the black community Transgender people are, I would say would be even less visible than the broader community. The queerness wasn't being displayed on TV in ways beyond struggle. I had no idea of what it would be like to be transgender and live a fulfilling life, have a successful career. Maybe there were representations of transgender people on TV, but they were often In various forms of sex work, or there were representations of transgender people on tv in, you know, in prison. They were not the kinds of depictions of transgender people that portrayed us in ways beyond struggle and so it was hard to access. I would say I didn't put the two and two together. When I started to encounter transgender people stories, it was from these stories of triumph, of living in euphoria, of people having top surgery and saying how it changed their lives, and I was like, oh, got it, this is a possibility for me, and I think that that changed it for me. Emma: 13:17
I mean I can think of some role models now, but mainly trans women like LeVon Cox and like the actresses in pose, but again, it's all trans women, isn't it really that? You see many visible black trans men. Well, I don't do you. Moe: 13:32
No, and even that's after I transition, so there are not a lot of these examples. Emma: 13:39
So you must have felt quite isolated, I guess. Moe: 13:42
Yeah, I didn't know I was isolated until I figured it out because, again, I was living in this like World where transgender people weren't existing, they were very invisible to me. So once I became aware, then I realized how much I had been siloed or how much I was isolated. And it certainly meant an interesting transition for me as well, because my community that I built over my life Primarily consisted of cisgender, hetero people. Emma: 14:10
Was that a happy revelation, or was it? Did you have to do quite a lot of work? You mentioned having to go into therapy. Was it? Was it a difficult transition to sort of accept yourself? Moe: 14:22
No, it was like as soon as I understood that I was transgender, I was already a licensed marriage and family therapist. I knew where to go, what tools I needed to embark upon this journey and I was already supporting clients uh through various stages of being queer coming out. So I had the support internally and externally to go about this in a different way, which I think is different for many people who are navigating gender transition or navigating a new queer identity. I think those resources are not quite obvious or visible in those ways. Uh, which I think is an important part of the work that I'm doing at hinge is to uh cultivate more visibility and access to queerness For queer daters of all kinds. Emma: 15:13
Yeah, well, come on to some dating advice, I think, and, and you better place to give advice than a therapist as well. So fantastic. But let's just talk a bit more about you. You're coming out, then coming out as transgender and non-binary. How did that go? Who was the first person you told? Can you remember? Moe: 15:30
Oh yeah, that's a good question. I'm pretty sure the first person I told is my now wife. She's my girlfriend. At the time I was already deeply in love with her and this coming out to her was a test. Almost I wasn't trying to test her, but I knew that in order for our relationship to survive, she needed to know that. I figured this out about myself and so when I told her that I'm identifying as transgender, she was like okay, and she just went into trying to understand what that meant for me and learning all the things she needed to learn as an ally, and she sat with me as I came out to my parents. She stood beside me when I changed my name legally and I've been really, really blessed to have her at my side through all the aspects of this journey. Emma: 16:20
Wow, she sounds incredible. Moe: 16:22
I have to say that she is incredible. Emma: 16:25
Because it's a risk. I have spoken to trans people who have been in relationships and it hasn't worked out and that person couldn't cope with their partner, essentially in their minds, changing gender. They couldn't cope. So you must be, very, must feel very, very grateful to have picked the right one. Moe: 16:43
Well, you know, like I've sat with so many of my own clients who have also had that experience of having a partner who isn't able to go on that journey with them, and it is extremely painful I do feel blessed, but I don't. I don't know that it was necessarily that I picked the right person. It's more so that she had the capability to be open to change, and I think anybody has that capacity if they're willing to choose that. So many of us, though, enter relationships expecting them not to change and expecting things to not deviate at all, and I found that in any long-term relationship, regardless of whether or not someone's gender transitioning, you have to be open to what life is going to throw at you. None of us will be the same 10 years from now. In a relationship, it just doesn't happen. And so her openness to embracing love in all forms, as it shows up from the day to day to the year to year, that's what makes her different, but I think everybody has this possibility to choose that. Emma: 17:52
And you said she was there when you came out to your parents as being trans. Talk us through that scenario. Then it was a big sit down and get the family together, was it? Moe: 18:01
Well, it was really just my parents. I was a few weeks out from having a bilateral mastectomy. I had waited to tell them because I really wanted to make sure that my surgery was going to be confirmed and I had a whole back and forth with my assurance about coverage, and so I just sat my parents down. I had sent them a letter ahead of time kind of highlighting what we were going to be talking about, and by the time we got to the conversation, I think they done some research and they were extremely supportive. They were in pain because they were not sure what that was going to mean for my relationship with my then girlfriend, now wife, and they asked her directly like okay, what does this mean for you? And she told them directly like I love Moe, all of Moe. However, moe is across time and I think that that put them at ease. They were really worried immediately about how I was going to be received and what I was going to go through and I have gone through many challenges. But I think that that's where their fear or any kind of stress that they had was coming from. Emma: 19:09
So it came from a loving place. Then they were just concerned about the future of your relationship rather than anything that would concern them. Moe: 19:16
Yeah Well, at this point they'd gone through me coming out as queer already. So they'd gone through a lot of the challenges that my mom had spiritually, I would say with LGBTQ plus identity, I think at the time I came out as transgender. Her main question was how would you feel that you're going to grow facial hair? Because she was so concerned I'm going to be going through all these changes. She couldn't really wrap her mind around it and she still says to this day that when she asked me this question, how do you feel about facial hair? She says that I lit up like a Christmas tree. She says that I was like so excited that that helped her to know that it was real. My euphoria, my like excitement about growing facial hair was what confirmed for her Okay, this is happening, this is like a real thing. Emma: 20:04
And they were okay with it, then they were happy for you. Moe: 20:07
They were very happy for me. Now they were. They're baby boomers, so they were born in the late 1950s, so they've had their own growth around pronouns, language, what it means to be an ally. It's not like that happened overnight, but they've been willing to embrace that change every time that it shows up, and that has led to hard conversations, but necessary ones, and they've been willing to do that work with me. Emma: 20:34
I'm sure there's been occasions where they've got pronouns wrong and but they're happy to be corrected and yeah. And what about your siblings then? How did they take it? Moe: 20:45
My siblings have been really supportive and some of my best allies in this journey, so, yeah, I'm really really grateful for them. They were with me when I came out to my parents as bisexual, so I have to say that I've been granted really great family as well. I say that and I also want to honor that I'm an anomaly in this process, because so many queer people don't have those experiences, don't have the opportunity to have these conversations because they're completely cut off or shut out from their families. So I share my story to give people hope and to educate parents and other allies on how they can be supportive and what the impact of that support actually is. But I don't share my story in any way as an ideal or as a model, because we know that this is not common for people. Emma: 21:40
And it's interesting, isn't it? Because, as queer people, we're constantly coming out and we've talked about coming out to family and friends, and then the other situation is coming out at work and it sounds like you really are living your best life because actually, the fact that you're bisexual, the fact that you're trans, non-binary, is helping your work. It's important, you're very out and proud at work and it's become your work in a way, right. Moe: 22:03
Yeah, absolutely. It's a gift that I've been granted in this lifetime and I'm really honored to be a public speaker, to travel and talk about what it means to be transgender transgender allyship so, yeah, it's definitely become my work. Most of my work is around authenticity and what it's like to be queer and living in a world that is not quite the world as it could be, but still we're doing this work every day to make it a better place. Emma: 22:32
Because it could be very easy for you to just pass for whatever better word and just carry on your life and not tell anyone that you were trans, and no one would look at you twice or give you any abuse in the streets, as does happen to a lot of trans people. So why was it important for you to raise your head above the parapet and go? I want to be out and proud as a trans person and I want to be known as being trans and I want to be talking about these issues. Moe: 22:56
I think that that's a beautiful question. I think there are so many things that come to mind in response to this when I'm thinking about my younger self that had never met a transgender person until I'm like in college, grad school. That's a part of why I want to be visible. Another reason why I want to be visible is because I've been gifted with such love and community, and I know how many people don't have that. So I know that by being visible, by working to cultivate more celebration of queer identity in all people in the world, I'm helping future generations of people be able to just be themselves, that I'm a part of a collective movement towards celebration and authenticity. I chose to be visible because I just want the world to reflect that, and I feel like you have to be the change that you want to see in the world. I don't think you can do that passively. Emma: 23:52
I love that, and one of the things that you are doing is working with the dating app Hinge. Tell us a bit about what you're doing with them. Moe: 23:59
I am Hinge's love and connection expert. Wow, Yay. I love working with Hinge. A big part of my role is taking a lot of my insights that I've gathered over the years of being a licensed marriage and family therapist, pairing it with Hinge's mission to be the most inclusive dating app for all daters. I offer advice and expertise on and off of the app to the LGBTQ plus community. I work with Hinge to ensure that Hinge app is a safe and celebratory space for all people to show up as their authentic sales on their profiles. So that's the rundown for what I do at Hinge. Emma: 24:41
And it must be quite a minefield dating as a bisexual person. What are some of the problems and difficulties that you've experienced in the past that maybe some people using the app might encounter? Moe: 24:52
Yeah, so we know that bisexual people in general make up the majority of the LGBTQ plus community, but so many of us experience misconceptions about our identity. Stigmas related to bisexuality are still extremely pervasive and they really challenge many bisexual people in a number of ways. Many of us don't feel that we can be our authentic sales when dating. We're learning a lot from Hinge daters, so we get to ask them plenty of questions, and one of the things that's coming to mind right now is that a majority of Hinge bisexual daters experience some kind of queer imposter syndrome. I think it stems from these misconceptions, these biases related to identity. Emma: 25:43
So what do you mean by imposter syndrome? Biosectric? People don't feel gay enough, or they don't feel straight enough, or yeah, they're sort of caught in the middle. Moe: 25:50
Yeah, yeah, totally. More than half of bisexual Hinge daters have also told us that they don't feel accepted from the queer community, so I think it's relevant to that. That imposter syndrome of like not feeling accepted. Also, then, not having our bisexuality affirmed by the community can certainly lead to this imposter syndrome. But I also think we get a lot of messages about bisexuality that are just flat out wrong, like ideas that bisexual people are confused or the idea that bisexual people are experimenting versus exploring. Emma: 26:26
And do you have advice for people who are transitioning or who are trans or non-binary, who are navigating the dating world as well? Because, again, it's not without its pitfalls and its problems and its difficulties, I guess, isn't it? Moe: 26:39
Yeah, I would say, starting with like for anybody that's exploring their identity. I encourage anybody to start by getting clear on who they are, how they identify, at least today. I don't think you have to know who you are five years from now in order to present your best self today. So just get clear on how you want to share that with other people and then, when you are thinking about exploring the dating space, you have a variety of options for how you're going to talk about your identity whether it's bisexuality or your transgender identity or your profile and I encourage people to talk in those first conversations on hinge about who you are. I think being upfront about who you are prevents any kind of confusion later. From a therapist's perspective, I don't want you to date anybody who is not going to accept you for your full self Now. Sometimes that can mean that we have to put ourselves out there for the possibility of rejection, and I do think that that's a part of this process. But I think some of the ways that we can work toward sharing up our confidence include practicing talking about our identities with our friends or talking about our identities with our therapists or some type of trusted companion before we have to have these conversations. Emma: 27:59
And what about, you know, making it a safe space and eradicating things like biphobia and transphobia? Kirsty: 28:07
Yeah. Emma: 28:07
And even prejudice against people that might be HIV positive, for example, because I know, certainly in some apps. You know things like that are rife. You know they really are. People are abusive to each other. How do you make sure that doesn't happen? Moe: 28:20
Yeah, you know, I think that that's a really great question. I come at it from a lot of angles. I start always with allyship. I think you know it can't just be on the people who identify as bisexual, trans or people who are HIV positive to be the only people saying this is not right. I think allyship is really important. We create culture together. We create community together, so we all have to work together to make sure that these stigmas, these biases, are just not continuing to grow in our communities. I think resources like not so frequently asked questions, resources with hinge, is so important because this resource allows us to answer a lot of these pressing questions that are important to the community. It also gives us a chance to combat these stereotypes directly from voices within the community, influencers, experts like me included. So I think many other spaces can take the approach of being allies, putting out resources and tools that will combat the stigma, make queerness more visible and support queer people in their pursuit of love and connection. Emma: 29:38
And as a love guru, I mean it's just a great job title, isn't it? What would be your one sort of general bit of advice? Because there will be a lot of people listening who are looking for love and it is a daunting experience and it can take many, many, many, many years to find the right person. But what would your one bit of dating advice be? Moe: 29:56
I have so many. I'm also loving this title Love Guru. Emma: 30:02
I would have that at the top of my CV if I was anything like your job description. Moe: 30:07
Absolutely so. I think the piece of advice for me is to really define your identity for yourself. That's the first part of it is to take a look at who you are and decide how you're going to tell people who you are. I think what I've learned from my experience as a transgender person is that the ability to name myself or myself changed my life, and so now I proudly answer to Moari because I'm called what I want to be called, and I think it's the same for identity when we decide for ourselves and we write our own narrative. There's a bit of confidence that comes from that. So I encourage people to define themselves for themselves. And the other half of this is to show up authentically, and that does take time and there are evolutions to that. You don't have to be as authentic as you will ever be. It's life as a journey, so it's just being true to yourself in the moment, moment by moment. So, whatever you know about yourself today, honor that and continue to showing up as your authentic self where you are today. Emma: 31:19
Fabulous. And finally, I always like to ask for some advice for people who have yet to come out. So I mean it might be advice that you have for little Mo, although obviously you weren't called. Kirsty: 31:28
Mo back when you were very little, but for your younger self. Emma: 31:32
what was something you wish you'd known at the beginning of your many, many coming out stories? Moe: 31:38
Yeah, I wish that I knew that it was okay to shine my light. I think there were so many moments where and still moments that show up, where I am kind of connected to that younger part of me that's afraid to be seen, and I spend a lot of time as a therapist going back to this like younger part of myself and literally just offering myself affirmation that it's okay to be visible. I think so much of the coming out process is this fear that if everybody knows this secret or this part of myself, that I will be outcast. And what really happens on the other side of coming out is liberation. There's this freedom that happens. That is indescribable, and I spent far too long not sharing my voice, not talking about traumas. I had experienced being in denial about different aspects of my life longer than I needed to be, and I encourage anybody in the process of coming out to affirm for yourself every single day until it like really is a revelation in your heart, that it's okay to be seen, it's okay to be visible and that you will receive love and acceptance for being your authentic self. Belonging follows you wherever you go. If you have to make that your mantra, I want you to do that because I really believe that, believing that changed my life and my community and support and everything has continued to grow because of that. Emma: 33:19
What was your mantra then? Moe: 33:20
It was definitely something like you will be loved and accepted just for being your authentic self, and that's a part of the mantra that I just travel and talk about. Emma: 33:31
Yeah, I love it, and just keep saying that to yourself, just keep repeating it over and over. Moe: 33:36
Yeah, because at the core of the human experience is this desire for belonging and connection. That is not a queer, specific thing, that's a human thing, and so it never occurred to me, when I was like afraid of being seen, that other people are afraid as well, and so when we open ourselves up to be witnessed, what we're saying to other people is that it's okay to be yourself, and that hits right at this human desire that everybody has. So what I find is that whenever I'm being authentic, people are drawn towards me because they're like well, I wanna go where people are allowed to be authentic, because everybody wants that. And it might not seem like that when the fear is clouding our minds, but I've had to have many moments, even till this day, where I remind myself of that mantra Like you just gotta be loved. You don't have to do anything other than that. You just be your authentic self. It's okay to be seen. Emma: 34:39
A huge thank you to the wonderful Moe. What an inspiration. And listen if you wanna hear more words of wisdom from Moe. They've got their own podcast too. It's called Be your Own Love Goals. It comes out every week and get this they present it with their wife. Really worth checking out. Actually, you can also find them answering all of your queer dating queries for Hinge. It's all part of their special service called Not so Frequently Asked Questions. I really recommend looking at the site. Actually, you don't need to be on the dating app to do that. You just need to go to hingenfaqco. That's hingenfaqco. Oh, and, of course, moe's on Instagram if you wanna follow them there, as love out proud, brilliant. Right Time to tell you about next episode. Now. Did you know? February is LGBTQ plus history month? It's a brilliant idea from the charity Schools Out to celebrate our queer past which, let's be honest, has so often been hidden. So I thought it'd be a great excuse to speak to an LGBT historian. Next episode you'll meet Kirsty Law. She's the author of the brilliant book A Short History of Queer Women, and she told me that she didn't realize she was gay until her late teens. She then spent a couple of years in the closet, unable to accept herself, but now really embraces being a lesbian. Kirsty: 36:07
It's honestly like my favorite thing about me. I know a lot of people have that argument where they say like there's more to you than being a lesbian, but for me it's like I genuinely think it's the best thing about me. It influences my writing, it influences my humor. It's just I love it. I love women. I love sex with women. I love writing about women. It's like I am so different to how I was. Yeah, it's the best thing about me.
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