Emma: 0:05
Oh yes, it's time for a brand new episode. Hello, I'm Emma Goswell and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. So a bit about us. We're a podcast from what Goes On Media and you probably guessed we do as the name suggests. We bring you real life stories from right across the LGBTQ plus spectrum, and we do that every fortnight. Emma: 0:27
I've sat down with people from all over the globe to hear about those really intimate moments when people have discovered who they really are and when they felt brave enough to share that information with a friend or family member. Don't forget, you can follow us on all the socials. We're at Come Out Stories on X and we're coming out stories pod on Instagram. Now in this episode you're going to meet Michael Kay. His pronouns are he, him, and he's a gay man. He's also director of brand marketing and communications at Archer, and that is a relatively new dating app for gay men. He'll be telling you all about that and also sharing his story Now. Michael was born and raised in New York, but still spent quite a while in the closet before coming out at the age of 22. Michael: 1:13
I know I've been gay my entire life. Might not have recognised it my entire life, but I definitely have been. I would say, the first time something felt a little bit different and I always pinpoint this one moment in time, and it was when I was in 7th grade at summer camp, and I remember looking at a lifeguard and saying I don't know what I feel, but I feel something. And I denied it for years and didn't come out of the closet till after college. So I was almost 23 when I finally came out. Emma: 1:48
And that's quite a long time to hold something inside, isn't it really that you know to be true? But so you didn't verbalise it to anybody the whole time? Did you verbalise it to yourself? Did you admit it to yourself? Michael: 1:59
No, I thought about it often, but I wouldn't even think about the words gay, and I definitely didn't talk about it all throughout high school, all throughout college. I don't think I ever said it out loud until probably fall 2022, almost 23. Emma: 2:21
We are talking recent. Michael: 2:23
Yeah Gosh, I've barely been out a decade. Emma: 2:26
Yeah, so you mentioned summer camp there, which is something very American that English people just don't really get or understand or get involved in. But whereabouts in America? Are we talking? Because I'm talking to you now you're in New York, but are you from there or did you grow up somewhere else in America? Michael: 2:43
No, I am a true New Yorker, so my parents were born and raised in Brooklyn. I grew up about 45 minutes out of the city. That's where I spent my entire childhood, went to school, I went to college about two and a half hours out of New York City and I've been working in the city since 2014. So New York, born and raised, been here my entire life and I think it's important to note that, even though it's such a progressive state, it's such a progressive city and area, it's still really challenging for people to come out. I think when we think about people's experiences and we take into account where they're living, a lot of our conversation is about the experiences of people who are in enlarged coastal cities and how tough it is middle of our country, which is 100% true, but there are still challenges all over the country, no matter where you are. Being in a progressive state like New York did not make it any easier for me, and I luckily didn't lose any family or friends in the process and it still was really hard. Emma: 3:55
Gosh, and I guess that speaks about the sort of wider picture, doesn't it? And what the media are saying or what's going on nationally and internationally in terms of representation for queer people and LGBT people. I mean, were you seeing a lot of positive representations of gay men in your life? Michael: 4:16
Not when I was a child, not when I was a teenager, and even when I started working, at least in my earliest experiences, I, whether being out or not, was the only queer person in many spaces, and that's in New York City too. So it's definitely changed since then. In fact, ok Cupid, where I'm at now, was the first company from memory where I saw an overly gay man in the C-suite on the executive team, and that was the first moment where I thought, wow, there's actually no level I can't reach because of my identity. And that was such a powerful moment and it's part of the reason I've stayed here so long. Emma: 5:04
And what about school, though? Did you have the sense that there were other gay people at your school? Did people talk about homosexuality, or different genders or different sexualities at school? Did people get bullied? Michael: 5:18
There was definitely other gay men at my college and I made a point to distance myself from them because I was so scared about being associated with them and people thinking, oh, he's obviously gay, he's hanging out with them, which is ironic looking back, because I am still friends with all the friends that I made my freshman year and all of them have always known. But they also gave me the grace and freedom to come out on my own time and, in fact, within our group of friends, which are predominantly straight men, me and one other person both came out after college and it didn't change any of our friendships or dynamics, but for a long time I definitely kept a distance. Emma: 6:05
To me it's quite sad, isn't it, that you went through all of college, because, certainly for me, going to university and having that sort of freedom of not living at home and meant that I was discovering myself and my sexuality and having a lot of fun. So I'm guessing you were literally knuckling down and doing your schoolwork and you weren't having relationships, were you, or were you? Michael: 6:26
I definitely was not having any relationships with men. I did have fun in college. It was a lot of parties, so definitely had a great experience. But yeah, to your point, it wasn't a period where I was meeting like-minded people, other people within my community. In fact, the first other gay man that I wound up talking to was during my last semester at college and he was also closeted and we would never actually talk to each other about our identities. We almost would like skirt around it and pretend it wasn't there as like a conversation that was never broached for us. And after I came out after college he actually reached out to me and said you know, I saw you come out and I saw how it really hasn't changed your life. In fact, if anything, it made it better. You seem happier. And he let me know he wound up coming out to his family shortly after. Emma: 7:28
But he did eventually come out and it inspired other people. Michael: 7:31
It did, it did, which feels good. Emma: 7:34
So what was the moment where you thought this has gone on too long? I need to actually face this head on and admit who I am. Michael: 7:43
Well, I actually got into a relationship with someone and they at the beginning of our relationship said I know you're still in the closet, I will never force you out. You come out on your own timeline. I am not here to impact that. And all of a sudden it felt like I am not that different. This is nothing to be ashamed of. I don't really understand why I have to have a conversation about this when straight people don't have to come out and out of nowhere it's all that fear and anxiety and shamefulness and depression, like everything went away. It just completely disappeared and I remember putting up a photo on Facebook of my boyfriend and I I remember telling people oh, this is my boyfriend, we're coming together, and I just acted like business as usual, with family, with friends. I didn't have some big coming out moment. Emma: 8:44
You didn't have a one big moment, but you did it on social media, though, which I think is quite brave, isn't it? Because you can't necessarily be with the people that you're coming out to, can you? And that's quite a big step for it, isn't it? Michael: 8:56
It's brave and also I think some people might say it's an easier way out because I didn't have to have a conversation. I put it out there for everyone in my network to see and let them process it on their own terms, without me being a part of that journey for them, which in turn, really did make it easier for me. I think it alleviated a lot of uncomfortableness for me to have to talk about it one-on-one with people. So if I could do it all over again, I would do the exact same thing. Emma: 9:30
I'm 100% with you, though I do feel like it doesn't have to be a big deal. And you're right, straight people don't have to come out. So it's more than annoying, isn't it, that we have to have this whole process really. But in a way we do, because look at what you've just said you felt a world bit of weight being lifted off your shoulders, didn't you? Michael: 9:49
Mm-hmm, yes, it was. I felt lighter. I also think it made all the relationships in my life a lot stronger because, even if part of our conversations were in about my identity, the fact that I was showing up to these relationships without hiding something, being able to bring my true self, my full self, to the relationship whether it's family or friends or coworkers all my relationships got stronger and stronger and stronger and in time, I started to see the people around me not only support me but also support my community, whether that was coming to different charity events that benefit the LGBTQ community, or coming to see local drag queens perform and supporting them. You know, showing up in different ways. Emma: 10:41
Wonderful, let's talk family then. Did you have to sit down conversation with your parents or did you decide to do it another way? Michael: 10:49
No, I did not. I told my aunt, who was the closest person to me at the time. So a bit about my family dynamics. I'm adopted by my grandparents and they're my maternal grandparents, so my aunts and I have the same parents and I told my aunt one day and I couldn't even at that point still say that I was gay. I said this is who I'm dating and I showed her a photo of my boyfriend and I and she actually told the whole family for me and I didn't take that as a as disrespect, as going behind my back, as breaching trust. It wasn't that. It came from the most genuine place and it came from a place where she knew I was not ready to have this conversation and if she could take that on for me and make it easier for me, she would do that. Emma: 11:39
And did you know she was going to do this or did she ask permission to do it? Michael: 11:43
No, I didn't, and you know, I think everyone will take that differently. For me, she was the reason I had this huge weight lifted off me. I felt so relieved that everyone knew that I didn't have to have this conversation with her, with them, that no one was mad at me and no one was ashamed and it wasn't going to change anything in our family. So I am so incredibly thankful that she did that to me, because that was such a gift. Emma: 12:13
And what age were you when this conversation took place then this was the summer after college, so I was 22. Michael: 12:19
22. Emma: 12:20
Yeah, I mean, you didn't leave it too long, did you really? That's not, it's not awful, but it's a few years of being in the closet, isn't it yeah? Michael: 12:27
Well, when you think about it, I would say, sure, technically it's your whole life up to that point, but it middle school was when I really started to figure it out, like I had some inkling. I remember being in middle school and googling, coming out stories and trying to read about gay experiences and what that felt like. I don't remember exactly what I was reading, but I remember a lot of the stories were so traumatizing. It was people losing their families, being kicked out of the home, losing their support systems, and I remember feeling like, okay, whatever this is that makes you different, we are not going to show it ever because it was so terrifying. Emma: 13:15
That's the shame that you only saw the negative stories, I think, because I have spoken to people like that on the podcast. But what I would say is that every single one of those people who did lose their family relationships is still in a happier and better place for coming out and doing it and have moved on to find their own chosen family, absolutely. Michael: 13:33
I mean, it's not that long ago, but it's still different times. This had to be. This was the early 2000s. I was probably in seventh grade or eighth grade and what I had access to was just a lot of the dark side of coming out, and it was enough for me to say, okay, that's not for me, we'll not be doing that. And it took a really long time afterwards. I mean, I must have been 12 or 13 at the time, so a decade really. Emma: 14:02
So any siblings then at all Michael to talk to or not? Michael: 14:07
No, I was an only child, which I like. I loved all the attention on me, oh really. Would never have wanted a sibling. Emma: 14:17
Well, let's talk about being out at work then, because he said he was quite inspired by this guy who he worked for. Presumably he was a boss at OKCupid. When was the time where you felt, oh, it's okay, I can come out at work then? Michael: 14:33
Honestly, early on a lot of my earlier workplaces I felt really comfortable. When I say earlier workplaces, I still mean post college. None of the internships in college I would never have done that, I would never have come out. But post college, once I had come out, I never went back in. I was completely open, no matter where I showed up, no matter what company it was. Again, I worked predominantly in New York City for the past almost 10 years since graduating and I also work in public relations, which is a very female heavy industry. So I do think I also attributed to creating safe spaces for queer people as well. So I've always felt really comfortable at work, showing up as who I am. I'm really, really lucky about that. It just wasn't until OKCupid that I saw another queer person in a leadership position. A lot of the leadership had been straight white males at a lot of the places I had worked. Emma: 15:44
Well, let's talk about love then, because you just meant to word Cupid. So why not? How is your love life? Did you stay with the guy that inspired you to come out, or was that so long ago You've moved on? Michael: 15:55
At the time of this recording. Next week, we're celebrating nine years together, so it has been great. I'm really thankful for Tinder. So for anyone who doubts online dating, if it makes you feel better. Nine years later, I'm still dating the first guy I went on a date with. Emma: 16:16
This is unbelievable. I think this is a gay first, Michael. This is extraordinary the first man you ever went on a date with and you are still together. Michael: 16:27
Yes, it was the first person I felt really comfortable with and I felt safe. He was a safe space for me. Emma: 16:32
Well, congratulations, that was fantastic. They say, don't they? And I don't like to stereotype gay men, but they do say that they're sort of like dog ears, aren't they? Relationship? So if you're in a year relationship as a gay man, that's equivalent to seven years of first-rate people. Michael: 16:47
But don't ask me to do the math on that, because I don't know it. Emma: 16:52
And, funny enough, you work for a dating app. That's what you do for a living. No wonder you're doing that for a living, because you've seen how first-hand that it can work. Michael: 17:01
Yeah yeah, I've always been a really big proponent of online dating, so we had been together probably five years before I joined OKCupid and I've been at OKCupid for four years and I am now leading the marketing for a brand new app for gay men called Archer. Michael: 17:21
So it feels really full circle, because the app that Archer is is one that I really could have used when I was 22 years old and for me, dating apps were the only space for me to turn to online. I wasn't out of the closet yet, so dating apps were a way where I can connect with other gay men in a discrete way, and a lot of the options that were available to me. The gay specific apps really reinforced this idea of shame and secrecy. There were a lot of link profiles, a lot of people hiding behind torso photos, and I remember opening one of the apps and saying to myself that, wow, even within my own community, I have to hide parts of myself, and that was, I think, really traumatizing at the time, which is why I turned to Tinder, which obviously had queer people, but was mainly used by straight people. It actually felt like a safer space. Emma: 18:27
So we very much turned off the idea of Grindr, which is the sort of stereotypical one that a lot of gay men use. But was it because it was so sexualized? That's how I think of it. I'll see it. It's all very much men sending pictures of each other's penises. That's what I imagine it to be, Am I wrong? Michael: 18:44
I was definitely turned off by you know what I had downloaded and what I was looking at and it just was, you know, a little bit too much for me at that point in my life and I didn't want to hide more. I wasn't fully ready to come out, but I also knew that, like being on those apps felt like step backwards for me. Emma: 19:04
But it's interesting, isn't it? I guess it's symptomatic of the wider culture and I think, certainly for gay men, it is very body fascist, isn't it? And there's a lot of pressure in the gay world for men to go to the gym and wear certain clothes and look a certain way. Did you feel that pressure? Michael: 19:22
Absolutely, and I do think that's why, when we created Archer, we kept today's daters in mind, because I think there is a shift in the culture and what people are prioritizing. So for us, we said there's not going to be blank profiles. We will never allow that. There are not going to be body photos for your main photo. We have mandatory selfie verification for every single user and your main photo needs to be of your face. That's all we want to see. So when you upload that main photo of your face, we selfie verify you immediately so that we know you're not catfishing anyone. And we do that also to make sure that this becomes a place where there's just a feeling of a celebratory nature. You know, it's just about showing who your truest self is, versus what your apps look like. Emma: 20:19
It's a sad world that we live in, that you have to make all those considerations and worry about how negative not just dating apps, but social networking and media sites have been over the last few years. You know, look at Twitter. It's imploding, isn't it? It's a vile place where people are judged and it's just rife with homophobia and transphobia and not a nice place to hang out. So it's nice to hear that, you know, perhaps things are moving on a bit and we're trying to make the world a bit nicer place when it comes to social media and dating apps. Michael: 20:52
Absolutely, and I think that's because we involve people from our own community at every step of the way. Our chief product officer is a openly gay man who came out later in life. He brings his experience to Archer. The marketing is led by me and I'm an openly gay man and I bring my experience to Archer. Our head of data is another openly gay man. We also spent the past year interviewing over 1200 queer men, getting their experiences, hearing what they were really frustrated about from dating apps and from social media apps, and bringing that feedback to the app that we were building. We also partnered with GLAD, which is one of the largest LGBTQ plus nonprofits here in the United States. They're a great organization yeah, incredible and they've been incredible partners and they had the opportunity to weigh in on everything that we were doing, from product to marketing, and playing a role in shaping what Archer would become. Emma: 21:57
But at the moment you're just in New York and just for men. Michael: 22:00
Yes, so we are available nationwide in the US for download in the app store, in Google Play, and then we are rolling out city by city. So we're starting in New York City, we're going to LA, we're going to Washington DC and we hope to be national within the year and we're already looking at international cities for 2024, including London, paris, madrid, tel Aviv, manchester. Yeah, I'll put that on the list. I'll put that up top. Emma: 22:32
Put Bolton on there as well. I'm joking. And what about the women? Michael: 22:37
So, for now, archer is focused on queer men. However, we are always looking at every single group that we feel are underserved when it comes to dating apps. So over the last year, match Group, who is our parent company, has launched BLK for Black people, chispa for Latinos, upward for Christians, archer for queer men. So many more to come, I would guess. Emma: 23:10
It's weird it has to be so segregated, isn't it? In a way, it sounds a bit bizarre, but maybe that is what people are telling you that they want. Michael: 23:18
Yes, but you also have to remember that most people are on multiple apps at a time. It really depends on what they're looking for at any given moment, and we've actually seen the average number of dating apps that people are on at one time increase since the pandemic. So it used to be between three to four at a time. Now we're seeing four to five at a time. So I think there are moments where people are going to want an Archer and other moments when they might want a Tinder or an OKCupid. Emma: 23:47
I don't know about you, but it's all exhausting, isn't it? I'm quite glad that I'm settled down. Michael: 23:52
I'm lucky to have found my person, but I can relate to it when it comes to social media. Every morning I'm checking my Instagram and threads now, and LinkedIn and TikTok so a lot to keep up with. Emma: 24:06
It's relentless, isn't it? Go on, then, as someone that's employed to bring people together. What's your top dating tip, then? And finding true love tip. Michael: 24:16
I would say before you download a dating app, make sure you want to date. Make sure you're in the right mindset. It's not something you have to do and these apps are always going to be here. They're not going anywhere. So if you're not in the right mindset to date right now, take a break. Have fun with your friends, have fun with your family, go out with your coworkers, do you. But if you are in the mindset to date and you really want to find your person, make sure what you're putting out there on a dating app is truly reflective of who you are and what you're looking for. Don't try to present a persona that isn't really you. It's okay, no matter what you're looking for. If you were looking for an open relationship, that's great. There's a lot of people out there who are looking for that. If you do not want children, if you do not want to get married, just be honest from the beginning about what you're looking for, because if you're not, you're going to attract people who you're just not compatible with. Emma: 25:13
Well said, so are you going to? Or maybe you have already tied the knot with your partner? Michael: 25:20
We have not. We hopefully will, but we have not yet. I've been so busy with Archer I have no time. Emma: 25:28
Well, I want an update on the story, Michael, and I want there to be wedding bells somewhere. I don't know. I feel like if you work for a dating app, you need to be tying the knot, or maybe just think it's not for everybody. Is it Joining the married community? Michael: 25:41
Yeah, I mean I definitely want a wedding, I want the children, I want all of that. So in the future, In the future. Emma: 25:51
Well, I wish you all the best of it and I want you to let me know if there are wedding bells in New York City. Michael: 25:57
Absolutely, you'll be the first to know, maybe the second, but definitely top three. Emma: 26:05
Big thank you to Michael for chatting to me. I so need to find out if I need to buy a hat, don't I? Now, if you're a gay man and you're interested in trying out the dating app Archer, you can find more online at ArcherAppcom and you can download it from all your usual app stores. And if you want to, you can also follow Archer dating and OKCupid on both Insta and TikTok, which I've still not really got my head around, but I really must, and best of luck if you are dipping your toes into the fascinating world of dating apps for the first time. Hey, it worked for me, it could work for you. Anyway, next episode we are off stateside again, but this time it's to the south side of Chicago to meet a queer woman. He's also a podcast host and radio presenter, and Anna told me that she was in denial about her sexuality until she went to college, really, and met her first girlfriend. Anna: 27:02
We were coming home from college together. She would be at my house for the holidays. All these things was happening and then, when my mom started to put the pieces together, she was like I don't care who you are, what's not going to happen in this house. Is y'all sleeping in the same room? Because we were just breaking all the rules in this very Christian house.
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