Emma Goswell: 0:05
Hi friends, I'm Emma Goswell. I'm your host for Coming Out Stories, so we're a podcast from what Goes On Media and, funnily enough, we share Coming Out Stories. It's all in an attempt to spread the love and share positive representations of queer people. Now, if you're listening just as this podcast is released, then let me be the first to wish you a very happy Pride Month. I do feel like it's a bit of a new thing-ish to say that in June in the UK anyway, because certainly where I live in Manchester, uk, we celebrate Pride at the end of August, but June is certainly when all Prides occur in the US, and usually the last weekend of June, of course, to coincide with the anniversary of the Stonewall riots in New York City. Yes, let's not forget, the first pride was a riot Loads to campaign for, for our community, still in 2024. Anyway, shall we crack on? By the way, if you want to get in touch with us, you can do that via our website, comingoutstoriespodcastcom, or if you want to chat on social media on X we are at comeoutstories and on Instagram we are comingoutstoriespod.
Emma Goswell: 1:19
Right time to meet this episode's star. Robert Tregonning is a gay man who is now a successful children's author. In this episode you'll find out all about his new book A Fairy Called Fred as well, of course, hearing his coming out story. Oh, and you will not believe the story about how he met his husband. It's brilliant. Here's Robert.
Robert Tregoning: 1:43
I guess the beginning of my coming out story stemmed from gender stereotypes and at that time, at that really young age, not being aware that they were stereotypes and just taking those signals at face value and convincing myself that, oh, I'm different, I don't quite fit into these rules that I'm being told exist.
Emma Goswell: 2:01
Is this all about masculinity rules? Completely, completely, I'm guessing you were told that you weren't masculine enough, or some words to that effect.
Robert Tregoning: 2:09
Yeah, or being drawn towards the things that I was being told weren't for me. So I'm really lucky to have a lovely sister, but we'd go to the toy shop together and I'd become aware that the pink aisle that was all sparkly and full of rainbows was aimed at my sister, and I was meant to go down the pink aisle that was all sparkly and full of rainbows.
Robert Tregoning: 2:25
Yeah, it was aimed at my sister and I was meant to go down the blue aisle. The way I would get around. It would be like finding things down the blue aisle like someone like um chitara from thundercats characters like that or or shira, princess of power, where they were sort of like melding the two it is insane, isn't it, how gendered children's toys and clothes are.
Emma Goswell: 2:44
I mean we really struggle to find clothes with dinosaurs on that weren't clearly aimed at boys. But we've eventually found a pink top with dinosaurs on. But it's like how can dinosaurs even be gendered?
Robert Tregoning: 2:55
It's ludicrous Completely. And in lots of ways I feel like things have changed since my childhood, which was sort of late 80s, 90s. But then there's other ways where the pink, blue thing is still so, so prevalent well, let's, let's date you then slightly down to give you an exact.
Emma Goswell: 3:09
So what are you in your 30s then?
Robert Tregoning: 3:11
yes, I'm 37, turning 38 this year.
Emma Goswell: 3:14
Yeah, yeah so, growing up as a young kid in the 80s and whereabouts geographically were you?
Robert Tregoning: 3:20
county durham and in a village sort of in rural county durham that was not, not tiny but not big and the sort of place everyone knows everyone, in some ways idyllic but in other ways really sheltered from the outside world.
Emma Goswell: 3:33
So the stereotypes were alive and kicking and you felt them, I guess. Did it turn to bullying, or was it just more an uneasy sense that you had that you weren't fitting in A lot of?
Robert Tregoning: 3:44
it was more internal and the bullying. There were occasions of bullying, but I guess I was sort of like working out how to navigate through this world I was in and finding the people that would sell. If I, if I sort of shared that side of myself with them, they would celebrate it. I had friends, two sisters and me and my sister would go around and they had a dressing up box and it would all be just gorgeous dresses and we would like dance around their garden and just knowing where I was safe to express myself in that way.
Emma Goswell: 4:15
And they didn't judge you as girls going. Oh, you can't wear the princess dress because you're a boy.
Robert Tregoning: 4:20
No, not at all the people that I knew I could sort of be safe around.
Emma Goswell: 4:24
No, I wasn't judged by but you didn't have male friends, young boys as well.
Robert Tregoning: 4:31
I did have friends who were boys potentially. Yeah, I remember some boys at the time that I could be more open with, but predominantly my friendships were with girls.
Emma Goswell: 4:41
It's so funny, isn't it? I've got a cousin I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning this and he was a big fan of uh dressing up in dresses as a young kid with all the other girls and he turned out to be the other gay in the family. We were thrilled. I was absolutely over the moon when he came out, but it it is a bit of a. It's a bit of a sign, isn't it?
Robert Tregoning: 4:58
I think yeah, and a big part of. I guess now I see it as all a part of my queerness and the way, like the things that make me me. Yeah definitely it was something I was drawn to. I remember mum has a story that she had a friend who had a son in the same nursery group as me, I think who got a phone call to say that they needed to come in and pick up their son because he'd injured his ankle.
Robert Tregoning: 5:22
And the mum had said, oh, playing football? And they said, no, actually, um, falling off a pair of shoes that had a small heel. And the mum had said, oh, was he playing with Robert Tregonych? So I, obviously, it was obviously known. I don't remember this, but my mum's told me the story oh my god, brilliant.
Emma Goswell: 5:41
Do you still do like the dressing up? Or is that part of your childhood that's over? I don't. Yeah, no, it's not something I do regularly.
Robert Tregoning: 5:48
It's just I suppose it's all of the things that I'm passionate about and drawn to. There's quite often elements of femininity. I do love fashion clothes, drag, you know, not as a performer myself, but I'm really drawn to lots of those things. Musical theatre has been the sort of world I ended up working in, so a big part of me being able to dress up and express myself, I guess is wrapped up in that.
Emma Goswell: 6:14
Brilliant. So that's sort of your early years as a child kind of before you sexualised really. But when did the penny drop that? Oh, hang on, I'm not really sexually attracted to the opposite sex as I'm supposed to be.
Robert Tregoning: 6:27
So I remember my transition from junior school to secondary school was sort of 97, 98. It was all of that time. It was sort of big fan of the Spice Girls at the time. I remember things like Lily Savage being on Blankety Blank on a Saturday night like primetime TV. Wasn't she an icon, incredible, I mean. And for that to be in our living rooms on a Saturday evening and just celebrated. And really one of the biggest things I remember at the time was Will and Grace appearing on a Friday night.
Robert Tregoning: 6:58
I hadn't really found positive examples of queer representation up until that point.
Robert Tregoning: 7:04
You know, I've no doubt that they were out there in the world, but where I was, in this small village in rural County Durham, I didn't really see them until this point.
Robert Tregoning: 7:14
And suddenly seeing something on TV that was so funny and brilliant and openly queer and I really connected with it and I feel like I started to queer and I really connected with it and I feel like I started to understand things about myself at that time. And there was this window around age 13, 14, maybe 15, 16, a window where I was feeling more and more comfortable in a way, really being able to be myself around friends, not talking about my sexuality, my queerness, but really feeling I was able to be myself, talking about my sexuality, my queerness, but really feeling I was able to be myself. And then, maybe around age 16, 17, after sort of years of this sort of struggle within me between wanting to express my truth and then the shame and the worry that had built up over all of the years, the fear won out and I really suppressed it at that age and really went into denial about it for a couple of years. It's crazy, isn't it?
Emma Goswell: 8:04
Because you're really went into denial about it for for a couple of years it's crazy because you're slightly younger than me and it's interesting that you're from a generation that did have some of those positive role models. You know you did have a drag queen presenting a mainstream entertainment show, you know, watching in front of your parents, but yet there's still that shame isn't there and there's still that those negative connotations with being gay completely.
Robert Tregoning: 8:23
it was so deep-rooted and I saw an older child at school come out and I saw the way that they were treated. They were quite a few years above me and it was really scary. And I saw the bullying and I was in the younger years, at the secondary school, and I think it really scared me.
Emma Goswell: 8:40
And was it name-calling or was it physical?
Robert Tregoning: 8:44
Yeah, and some physical bullying, and it was really horrible and I wish now, looking back, I'd been able to speak up and be brave, but I was so filled with shame and so filled with fear that that just overwhelmed me.
Emma Goswell: 8:57
Well, it's very difficult at a young age, isn't? It it to have that confidence and know that it's going to be okay at the end which it always is yeah, but it's difficult, it's very easy to say in retrospect, but when you are that 13, 14 year old, you're terrified, aren't you? Yeah?
Robert Tregoning: 9:11
yeah, it sort of took until moving away from that place actually and going off to uni and sort of spreading my wings, that I felt able to open up to friends and and to start to to come out to the people I was close to it's so important, isn't it just getting away from home if you're going to university?
Emma Goswell: 9:29
I think the same for me and the same for a lot of people. It's just having that freedom, isn't it? And just thinking I can start afresh here and I'm gonna, gonna be me absolutely, yeah, yeah, that fresh start.
Robert Tregoning: 9:39
I think that was the thing, and I think the few months before uni I started to feel the courage to share my truth with friends and when I got to uni from the get-go I just thought okay, I'm.
Emma Goswell: 9:52
That's it.
Robert Tregoning: 9:53
Yeah, yeah, I'm not going to hide anything. So you did come out to somebody before uni who was the first person you told, then A couple of friends all female friends, I think, to begin with, but friends who'd been friends through secondary school and everyone just reacted in the most wonderful, positive way. But I think I knew I felt so safe with the people that I was sharing it with and they were people I really trusted.
Emma Goswell: 10:16
And were these the same people that you may have been dressing up with years before?
Robert Tregoning: 10:19
Did they kind of go no shit, robert, actually actually, yeah, I'm sure at some point, yeah, I did talk to those friends, but a lot of those friends were sort of friends that I didn't necessarily go to the same secondary school as those friends. But yeah, a few of them are still in my life and, yeah, I'm sure they were some of the first people I told.
Emma Goswell: 10:37
So you sort of went to university feeling quite buoyed and quite encouraged that it was going to be okay. Where did you go to uni?
Robert Tregoning: 10:45
So I went to the Glasgow School of Art initially and I studied architecture to begin with, and I think partly what led me to the School of Art in Glasgow is that when I went to look at unis, there was this real sense of openness and freedom there, and I don't know if I was aware of it at the time, but I think I was looking for places where queerness was going to be celebrated and I was going to be safe and I really think that's part of what led me up there.
Emma Goswell: 11:14
I think it's very important. I mean I've spoken to I live in Manchester and I've spoken to so many people that end up here because they're queer and they want a vibrant city that is known for being quite liberal and understanding. It's so important isn't it? And not just the fact that there are gay bars. But that helps. I'm sure you went through a few, yeah.
Robert Tregoning: 11:33
Yeah, yeah, no, definitely, and we have the same now, like me and my husband, we're really on and off play with the idea of making the move down to Brighton for similar reasons.
Emma Goswell: 11:47
That it's. It's just a place where we feel so safe and so welcome, and the gay mecca, yeah, fabulous. Well, you mentioned your happy ending there. We'll come on to talk about that a little while but, you know, did you come out before you were in a relationship, or was it the fact that you're in a relationship that sort of spurred you on to coming out to people?
Robert Tregoning: 11:59
It was partly that it was like being able to live openly at university led me fairly quickly within the first year of university to want to come out to my immediate family, and I did. I sat them down. Maybe two thirds of the way through first year Sat my parents down and we had the conversation. It was really hard for me. I'd built up so much fear that made me really scared of that conversation.
Emma Goswell: 12:27
So you sat them down together in the lounge.
Robert Tregoning: 12:28
I did yeah, you were on the edge of the sofa.
Emma Goswell: 12:31
Yeah, can you remember what words?
Robert Tregoning: 12:32
you used. I did say I'm gay. I said I'm gay, but I also. I again talk about shame, but I said sorry and I really went. I know there was still so much unprocessed shame that led me to say it in that way, but I remember my dad saying there's nothing to, there's nothing to apologize for. Why are you, why are you apologizing? And and they were brilliant. They told me that they loved me and and and not not perfect. I know, obviously no family is perfect and there were ways in which they accepted my coming out which were great, but there were other ways which weren't so great and I guess we'll get to the end of the story later.
Robert Tregoning: 13:15
But looking back now I can see that any mistakes they made, they were definitely coming from just loving me and, for you know, concern for my well-being, but there were things that happened that that needed to be resolved later.
Emma Goswell: 13:28
I guess. But their initial reaction was it's not a problem, you don't need to apologize, we still love you?
Robert Tregoning: 13:34
yeah, it was. It was on an immediate level, definitely, yeah, there's nothing to apologize for, we love you. But then there was sort of a secondary level which was, I guess, the just the fear of how the rest of the world will react, which I guess is quite common. I hear lots of queer people expressing the same thing that there's this secondary level which is their fear so for me, my parents, there was an element of that's great, but don't tell the neighbours.
Emma Goswell: 13:59
I mean did you have the same thing in some ways.
Robert Tregoning: 14:01
Yes, I think the people that I didn't talk to about it at that point were my grandparents and then by by default that meant that it was impossible to talk to extended family and and neighbours and community. It wasn't easy to talk about, to talk to lots of those people in my life about it so that became a secret, because that's what your parents wanted, or that's what you wanted as well.
Emma Goswell: 14:22
You weren't ready to come out.
Robert Tregoning: 14:24
I think it was sort of a bit of everything and I really kind of look back at it now as that my immediate family, my parents, my sister and myself because obviously we weren't existing in a vacuum and we were so influenced by what we'd grown up with and, for my parents, what they'd the years that they were at university, getting married, having us as children was all through the 80s and all through the bombardment of the media, portrayal of queer people and and so in the middle of a aids pandemic.
Robert Tregoning: 14:52
Yeah absolutely, and so I think as a family we sort of settled into that, that way of living, which people didn't really ask me questions in bigger family situations and lots of things went unsaid so it's like they knew, but it's like don't mention the war in some ways, yeah, and I think I fell into a sort of comfort and ease within that of as in, it became easy not to talk about it until until later down the line.
Robert Tregoning: 15:17
it really set off this period of time of my life which was living this double life, which meant I had a life that was completely open and truthful university, and then within my working world and with my immediate family, but not with extended family, and that became, I think now I see it was quite damaging and it was difficult.
Emma Goswell: 15:36
So you left uni and then, I'm guessing, you went into something in the arts, did you? If you went to art schools, because it's always good to talk about coming out at work as well, but I'm guessing, because of your sexuality in, in a way, you may have chosen gay friendly environments?
Robert Tregoning: 15:48
I don't know yeah and I think that story continued because as I got to the end of my degree, I realised I didn't really want to work in architecture and I'd always loved to dance. That had been a big part of my childhood and still is something I love and it really influences the stories I write now. And I auditioned for musical theatre. College came down to London and I ended up working in the world of musical theatre, which was an amazing place to work and such an open environment, where and so inclusive how wonderful.
Emma Goswell: 16:18
Were there any straight people? A couple. I've always joked that we should write the gay book of jobs and that is definitely up there, isn't it anything to do with musical theatre?
Robert Tregoning: 16:30
just a wonderful place and a wonderful world. And also the shows that I spent most of my time working in were two big family shows in the West End. So I worked at Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and then I worked at Matilda, and both of those shows have a cast of young performers with children and they would come into this space and this world and both of those shows have a cast of young performers, of children, and they would come into this space and this world and some of them would share their stories where maybe they didn't feel super comfortable at school or they weren't having the best time, but they were coming into this place where everybody was open and they were seeing people express themselves so truthfully and feeling safe and it was magical and I think that's definitely rubbed off on the way I want to tell stories and share stories with young people oh, brilliant.
Emma Goswell: 17:13
Well, yeah, we're going to come on to that and find out about your brilliant new book. Yeah, but it sounds like there was a bit of a transition then between living this double life to finally being a to everybody, including grandparents. How did that come about?
Robert Tregoning: 17:25
so so, within that world of musical theatre, um, my husband, uh, came into my life in around 2015. Yeah, now, husband, not and um, and we actually met working as umpalumpas at charlie and the chocolate factory shut up. This was brilliant, that's I thought I meant that's a sentence that no one's ever said on the podcast before.
Emma Goswell: 17:48
No, definitely not. This is definitely the most unique how I met my husband or partner story. We were both ump-a-lumpas. We were, oh my.
Robert Tregoning: 17:56
God, we were Brilliant. Billy's just had the most amazing impact on my life and it really opened my eyes, opened my mind to things, opened my heart.
Emma Goswell: 18:06
Did you know as soon as you clocked eyes on him wow, he is the one.
Robert Tregoning: 18:09
You know, it took a while for us to really get to know each other, and for that side, of things to develop. But yeah, there was something from the beginning. But, yeah, it did take a while for us to realise. Oh, okay, there really is something here and I really feel like I was meant to meet him. He was meant to come into my life.
Emma Goswell: 18:29
It really feels like I really needed to meet him please tell me you had an umpalumpa song as your first dance at your wedding it wasn't it was.
Robert Tregoning: 18:37
It was. It was more writing related.
Emma Goswell: 18:40
It was natasha beddingfield okay, oh well, I going to go with the thought that it was an unpalatable story. No, we didn't have Charlie and the.
Robert Tregoning: 18:50
Chocopatchee, we had lots of musical theatre, lots of musical theatre.
Robert Tregoning: 18:53
Yeah, it sort of needed Billy to come in and somebody from the outside to come in and just sort of shake me up a little bit and to really help me move to the next stage of my life that I needed to move to.
Robert Tregoning: 19:07
I like to think about it as like sort of my self-acceptance or my self-celebration, I like to say, was growing but there'd been this lid on it that I was like keeping it contained and at this point I felt able to take that lid off and just fully live openly. And really sadly, I lost my grandma around this time and she was in an accident and we were able to talk to her in the hospital. I had a moment on my own with her and I was able to talk to her about being in love and about Billy and about how much I loved her. And I'm so grateful that I had that chance and I still had my Nana and my granddad on my mum's side with us at that point and it just pushed me to say and to feel that I really needed to share everything with them and not to leave it too late.
Robert Tregoning: 19:58
They were living in a care home my granddad on the ground floor where people didn't need so much help, and my nana was up above on a ward that was for people with dementia, because she had quite severe dementia at this point, and so I went to speak to my granddad just the two of us and I think a lot of a lot of maybe why. Why I hadn't been open with my grandparents was rooted in fear, but also in like underestimation of older people and the way that, the way that they see the world and the life that they've lived and I think we forget that as young people.
Emma Goswell: 20:30
Actually, you know the fact that there were gay people around since the dawn of time and you know they have sort of been there, seen there, seen it and done it all, haven't they, old people?
Robert Tregoning: 20:40
exactly, and my granddad was amazing. We sat down and I said, granddad, I've got something to tell you, and he said OK, and then I said I've met someone, and he said a young lady and I said no, and he said a young man and I said yes, and he smiled and it was like without hesitation he just said, oh, that's wonderful news, and that was it. And I told him all about Billy and we went upstairs and my parents were there and we had a cup of tea and with my nana and we looked at pictures and we talked about Billy and it was, oh, it was like the final, the final push of the closet door and and that was it. And from that point on I've not had to hide anything. Yeah, it was magical.
Emma Goswell: 21:20
I can hear the emotion in your voice when you mentally going back to that conversation. It was obviously very, very, very powerful for you.
Robert Tregoning: 21:27
Oh, so powerful and, yeah, life changing. I'm so grateful to Billy for coming into my life and sort of helping me get to that point. I really see him as a big catalyst in my life.
Emma Goswell: 21:37
And how did it feel then to finally, like you say, push the final bit of the closet door open? You know everybody in your wider family. You and you were finally living your truth. How did that feel?
Robert Tregoning: 21:47
like I could breathe. Just wonderful to finally be able to be authentic and truthful with everybody, to have like lovely moments come up, like big family moments my sister's wedding, eventually our wedding, me and billy um and to be able to celebrate that with everybody and it's just just joy, just utter joy and I guess that joy and that happiness of living your true, authentic life and yourself feeds into your work.
Emma Goswell: 22:13
So let's talk about, I mean, how did you go from being in musical theatre, by the way, to becoming a children's author? That seems quite a stretch, doesn't it so?
Robert Tregoning: 22:21
two things were sort of happening at the same time and colliding, and there was all of this going on in my personal life and the sort of like revelations I was coming to in my personal life, and then, at the same time, working in theatre. It was Christmas and the backstage crew wanted to put on a pantomime for the performance?
Robert Tregoning: 22:40
oh yes, they did. And they wanted to put on a version of Cinderella which actually is really relevant to A Fairy Called Fred the new book which we'll come on to, because A Fairy Called Fred is very much a twist on the Cinderella story. And so they were putting on this show at Christmas, because everyone's coming into work Christmas Eve, boxing Day, and you know, just to make it really fun for everybody. And I wrote them a script that was all in rhyme that they could perform and it was brilliant. The whole show was a smash.
Robert Tregoning: 23:08
And, uh, this lovely lady, myra sands, who was in the cast she played grandma georgina in charlie and the chocolate factory. She just said to me oh, I thought that script was great. I really think you should um think about writing seriously. And it sort of sparked a confidence in me for writing. And that spark of confidence, combined with all of the stuff I was going through personally and all of the things I really wanted to say to my younger self and to other younger people, and it led me to start writing the types of stories that I write.
Emma Goswell: 23:37
But you don't have kids, do you? No, no, no, none of our own. You just thought I want to inspire the next generation.
Robert Tregoning: 23:44
Yeah yeah, we've got, we've got two lovely nieces now, which is it's really, it's gorgeous to be able to share the stories with them and to share other stories with them, but at the time I started, no, and I think I really did often have my younger self in mind, especially with a story like A Fairy Called Fred. I was thinking of, you know, five-year-old, six-year-old Robert pulling the sparkly dress out of the dressing up box, and it's very much a story for children who share that same love.
Emma Goswell: 24:15
Right, well, let's hear about A Fairy Called Fred. Then I mean, no massive plot spoilers, please, Robert. I've not read it yet. You know I'm looking forward to reading it to my daughter, so tell us a bit more about A Fairy Called fairy, called fred.
Robert Tregoning: 24:30
So a fairy called fred is the second book by myself and an amazing illustrator called steph murphy. Our first book was out of the blue, and out of the blue is a story about a world where every color is banned except blue. But there's a young boy who lives in this world who loves the color yellow, and it's all about his dad's reaction when he finds out about the boy loving yellow and the way that they spark a chain reaction within the world that they live in to be able to celebrate and live life in every colour of the rainbow. And that was our first book together.
Emma Goswell: 25:02
Your dog's obviously a big fan of this particular book.
Robert Tregoning: 25:03
Oh, big fan yes, out of the blue, absolutely.
Robert Tregoning: 25:07
I think he heard some post being delivered ah and our new book, a fairy called fred, is a twist on the cinderella story and it's very much inspired by my love as a child of the fairy tale, musicals, the little mermaid, beauty and the beast cinderella, all all of those films, and wanting to give all children the chance to see themselves having that Cinderella moment. And it's about Fred, a fairy who works at the wish granting plant, where wishes arrive and are granted by the fairies, and a little boy who's been invited to a princess party and has nothing to wear, josh. And Josh sends out his letter and crosses his fingers that his wish might come true and Fred comes to his rescue.
Emma Goswell: 25:54
And I don't want to spoil it, but I'm hoping that he does get to go to the metaphorical ball and dress as a princess and be his authentic self. Yes, there's definitely a happy ending, yeah yeah, oh, it just sounds wonderful, and I think you know it was really interesting. Yes, there's definitely a happy ending. Yeah, yeah, oh, it just sounds. It sounds wonderful, and I think you know it was really interesting.
Emma Goswell: 26:08
You were talking about how important it was seeing somebody like lily savage on the telly I'm guessing, the reason you're writing these books is you had that, but you didn't have anything as a young child, so you didn't have lgbt books as a kid, really. I mean, it seems like they're quite a new thing, doesn't it?
Robert Tregoning: 26:23
yeah, and there are some brilliant examples out there now, but they weren't those kind of books, weren't books I was exposed to as a young child? And definitely that's the thing that's driving me to write these types of stories. It's thinking back to those first steps on my coming out journey that I was talking about, the coming up against gender stereotypes and feeling a bit of unease and a bit of uncertainty and trying to just offer young people understanding and kindness and I think there's a big appetite out there, isn't it?
Emma Goswell: 26:50
I've read some reviews already online and it's gone down pretty well, hasn't it?
Robert Tregoning: 26:54
yeah, absolutely yeah. We've had some lovely reaction to it and to the previous books as well. This is of the books I've written. This is the third to be published, and then there are there are quite a few other books in development as well with the publishers, and they all sort of centre queerness and my experience as a queer person to different degrees, but because they're all coming out of my queer brain, I really do think of all of them as queer stories.
Emma Goswell: 27:19
Ah, and do you get to go and do any sort of readings? Because I mean, I'm in an LGBT parents group and they quite often do story time, so I'm just thinking it'd be great for you to go and visit some groups.
Robert Tregoning: 27:28
I'd love a trip to Manchester.
Emma Goswell: 27:30
Well, I'll see if I can organise that yeah that would be brilliant.
Robert Tregoning: 27:36
But yeah, that's a big part of what I've been doing is going to bookshops, going to schools, going to festivals, sharing the stories with young people, getting them up on their feet, dancing. It's been brilliant, and we've got some really exciting ideas for what what we can do with a fairy called fred, which I can't wait to to take out oh, you're having a big launch, then are you?
Robert Tregoning: 27:53
yeah, we've got a couple events planned at different bookshops and, um, we're going to have some, some wish letters that arrive that are giant, that make us feel fairy sized, and then the children are all going to have the chance to to make, uh, some children, other children's wishes come true and design the things that they're wishing for, which is going to be really fun.
Emma Goswell: 28:11
This is so cool. Robert, I'm a little bit jealous. We launched our book in bloody Covid, so we didn't get to do any launch events or go to any bookshops. I was absolutely gutted. So you went from musical theatre to children's writing. I mean, is this a complete career change or do you think you'll go back to musical theatre?
Robert Tregoning: 28:31
Yeah, so the writing began to happen at the point that I was ready to end my time as a performer, but the world of musical theatre is definitely something I want to still be involved with, and together with my husband, who is a songwriter and an artist and makes the most amazing queer pop music billy cullum so you should check out billy cullum's music. Together, we write musical theatre and it's something that we'd love to get up on the stage. Sometimes it's inspired by the children's stories I write, sometimes it's completely new stories. But, yeah, I definitely love to stay involved in the world of musical theatre, but from a creative side of things as opposed to performing side of things.
Emma Goswell: 29:17
Well, it sounds like you're both very creative. I love it. So, I mean, I always like to end with words of advice for other people that haven't come out, and I'm guessing you know this is something you thought about a lot, because your work centres around talking to your younger self anyway, doesn't it really? You know, these are all the sort of messages that you wish you'd heard when you were young, all the stuff that you put in your books. But, you know, for people listening who haven't got to that stage yet where they can accept themselves or live their authentic lives, what would you say?
Robert Tregoning: 29:47
I'd say that you should do everything on your own terms and in your own time and there's no rush and there's no pressure to have to talk to anybody about those things that you're feeling. But at the same time, I would also say that lots of the external things that might be making you feel worried or feel scared, I've just learned that those things are things that I shouldn't have let get on top of me and that really what matters is your own self-acceptance, your own self-celebration and feeling that joy within yourself, and then if you can let that shine and share that with the world, then that's just a beautiful thing oh, oh, wonderful.
Emma Goswell: 30:25
Well, it's been lovely talking to you. Could we end by singing a bit of the Impalumpa song? I mean, I might have a different one to you because I can only really remember the original with Gene Wilder in the 70s. But I mean, yeah, they could Do. You know what that didn't make it into?
Robert Tregoning: 30:40
the musical what it was. All brand new songs, yeah so songs, yeah so we can't have.
Emma Goswell: 30:48
What about the one that did make it in was world of pure imagination. Oh yeah, go on, let's have a, let's have a little blast. I'll try and see you start it, I'll try come with me and you'll be in a world of pure imagination. Pure imagination, pure imagination, that'll do. Oh, that was gorgeous.
Emma Goswell: 31:12
I don't think anyone will be signing me up any time soon. What a giggle. Apologies for my singing there, but what fun. A massive thank you to Robert Tregoning for chatting to me. Oh, and A Fairy Called Fred is out on June the 6th, so get it if you've got small people in your life. Anyway, next episode we're back stateside to meet Kevin, who came out a lot later in life. In fact, he'd married twice and had two kids, and it wasn't until his own teenage son came out that he finally confronted his own sexuality.
Kevin: 31:51
He started to exhibit signs of inquiry and coming out, and when I first opened up the discussion with him, I realized in my own head that I said, well, this is pretty inauthentic, because here I was trying to attempting to talk to. But knowing that I want to do a little probing and talk to him about where his thinking was, in my own mind I'm thinking, kevin, you haven't come to grips with this yourself.