Emma Goswell: 0:05
Well, hello there and thank you so much for choosing this podcast when there are literally five billion out there to choose from. So I'm Emma Goswalt and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. So we're a podcast from what Goes On Media and we probably do what you'd expect we bring you real life stories from the incredibly varied and rather fabulous LGBTQ plus community. Now, before we start, I do need time for a little bit of reflection, because I've just listened back to the introduction of our last episode, which I recorded only about three or four weeks ago, and I'm really struck by how out of date it is already. I can't believe this, but we just had an election here in the UK, where I live, and I found myself saying that there was a wave of optimism, because I feel like there was. But boy, how quickly things can change.
Emma Goswell: 0:55
Since I felt that positivity, the world well certainly this part of the world has gone to shit. So the far right have been spreading their hate and their lies and particularly their outright racism, and there have been riots across the UK. Mosques and asylum seekers have been attacked, police cars burned. It's been horrific. It's been genuinely terrifying for a lot of people, and you know what it's a reminder for all of us, particularly those who fit into the category of minority, that things can change very quickly and we can never rest on our laurels.
Emma Goswell: 1:26
If we're to keep racism and all the other isms and homophobia and transphobia at bay, we have to stay on our guard, we have to stand up to these Nazis and anyone that wants to take away our freedoms, and we have to celebrate our differences. And that's why Pride marches and why, in a small way, this podcast is so important, because I do hope that it really does spread tolerance and understanding just by simply celebrating queer stories. So let's do that, shall we? Shall we crack on? It's time now to hear my chat with a fellow podcaster and journalist. He's called Jordan Gonzalves and he lives and works in New York. His pronouns are he, him and his, and he's got the best story about a first kiss. But to begin with, I started by asking him when he knew he was different.
Jordan Gonsalves: 2:18
I think that probably my peers came to that conclusion before I did. You know, I think for some of us, some of us queens, we're born coming out of the womb with a limp wrist, I guess they say, and a pointy heel.
Jordan Gonsalves: 2:35
Yeah, exactly, exactly, I think, probably from as early as I can remember. I even have a memory of when I was in the first grade. It was like the first day of school, and I remember this girl coming up to me and asking are you gay, why? Because I think gay why meant that you were gay, and probably G-A-Y meant like happy or something. I don't know. This is like a small child lingo.
Emma Goswell: 3:05
And you're like five or something at this point.
Jordan Gonsalves: 3:08
Exactly yeah, and I was just trying to go to school, you know. But it was one of the earliest memories that I have of me understanding that it was not okay to be gay and that was not something that you wanted to be, because it had been made clear to me that all of the people that she was asking that question to were the outcasts. In my five-year-old brain I don't think I was sort of analyzing it in the same way, but subconsciously I was, and so, to answer your question, I don't think I knew myself until much later on. Until I was, and so to answer your question, I don't think I knew myself until much later on, until I was probably a senior in high school, did I want to actually admit it to myself?
Emma Goswell: 3:54
And there was that one girl you mentioned, but was there comments from the boys as well? Were there other instances where people were asking uncomfortable questions of you, like she did or even worse, you know sort of bullying?
Jordan Gonsalves: 4:07
Oh yeah, you know, I think sometimes with kids, I think the boys are worse than the girls when it comes to gay kids. It's interesting looking back. I think that so much gay violence really begins on the playground. I think that so much gay violence really begins on the playground and it's so interesting how we're taught the rigid norms of masculinity and gender roles from such an early age, because we sort of take that and bring it to the playground when we're really young.
Jordan Gonsalves: 4:42
I think another really early memory of mine was when I was in the second grade and my school had just built this new jungle gym for recess that all of us had gotten to play on and I was so excited I was going to play a tag with my friends and I remember this boy had come up behind me and tapped me on the shoulder and I by this point I was maybe seven and he said, no gay people allowed. And yeah, I, I do remember that pretty vividly and I remember that memory really shaping the next, probably you know decade of my life in in terms of understanding that this is something I would never want to be and this is not.
Emma Goswell: 5:29
You're not the first person to have told me this. It's almost like other kids pick up on your signals and your behaviors and your mannerisms way before you understand that you're doing anything or being different. You're just being yourself, but other kids are analyzing you and judging you based on what their parents are saying to them, I'm guessing.
Jordan Gonsalves: 5:47
I know, and I just wanted to listen to Britney Spears and the Spice Girls. I mean, who doesn't?
Emma Goswell: 5:53
Okay, so that has slightly aged you. So what I'm going to get you to do is explain, because I know we're talking to you now in you're in New York, but that's not where you grew up. So tell us what decade you were growing up in and where, geographically, you were.
Jordan Gonsalves: 6:08
Yeah, so I actually was born in 1995 and I grew up in Houston, texas, so I had a pretty unique upbringing. I grew up in kind of a conservative suburb outside of Houston but then when I got to high school, I actually went to high school in the downtown area, so it was a much more liberal part of the city and everything. But, yes, I grew up in the early 2000s, the noughties, yes, and I graduated high school in 2013.
Emma Goswell: 6:43
So you know, in my mind that's quite recent and you would hope that people would be a bit more tolerant and liberal and understanding of LGBT people, but not so Was it. Is Texas a particularly bad place to grow up in terms of being LGBT, or was it just the schools that you went to, or was there religion involved?
Jordan Gonsalves: 7:02
Yes. So you know this is all part of what I do as a journalist now, emma. So my coming out story actually sort of inspired me to become a journalist and my beat as a journalist what I report on is everything and anything that is impacted by shame and that was very much inspired by my own story. So I did grow up in a very conservative part of Texas. I also am the child of two immigrants from India and I grew up very Catholic, very Catholic, like church multiple times a week. So there was a lot of shame around my identity as a gay person and only later, when I was an adult, was I able to sort of reflect and look back at that.
Jordan Gonsalves: 7:52
To answer your question, texas is not a bad place to grow up. I have many fond memories of growing up there. It's a huge, huge place with lots of people. So you know, there are lots of different experiences there that people may have, but it certainly is a conservative state and it certainly is a place where a lot of people go to live, to sort of live with other conservative people. But I wouldn't change anything. I think that you know, even though those times were really difficult for me and not as inclusive. I do value that and I wouldn't take it back. I think they made me who I am. Those experiences.
Emma Goswell: 8:33
I'm guessing, if you're spending a lot of time in church, like you said you went several times a week you're hearing that message that homosexuality is a sin. I mean it must have been said in your presence several times, right?
Jordan Gonsalves: 8:44
It was, and you know I have this core memory actually of being 13 or 14 years old and that's sort of when you begin the confirmation process in the Catholic Church.
Jordan Gonsalves: 8:58
I guess it's somewhat similar to like a bat mitzvah or something in the Jewish faith, so it's around that age where you kind of hit puberty, yeah, and we would go to bible study like every sunday, and so one day I went to bible study on sunday and the presentation was on heaven and hell and sort of how you get into heaven, how you get into hell or how you get into hell or how you might end up in purgatory, which is in the middle.
Jordan Gonsalves: 9:30
So if you got into heaven it was things like being obedient to your parents and helping the poor and feeding the poor and stuff like that. If you got into purgatory it would be like you lied or you had a drinking problem or something like that. For the hell column, it was like three columns, this big projection on the screen. And for the hell column it said things like if you had committed adultery or if you had raped someone, and then it had a little bullet point for homosexual activity. And you know, I remember looking at that and I thought, damn, like that is something I never want to be, because I never want to go to hell.
Emma Goswell: 10:16
That's like you're straight in. You know you don't even get to choose. You know that's it straight to hell.
Jordan Gonsalves: 10:21
And I wanted to be with my you know, my parents and my grandparents that I knew were going to go to heaven. So you know, looking back, I guess one of my questions is like who told them what the requirements were? That was certainly a formative experience for me.
Emma Goswell: 10:40
And did that cause you to sort of leave the church or question the church?
Jordan Gonsalves: 10:44
No, you know, actually for many more years after that. I kind of doubled down on it. It would sort of be unheard of in a family like mine to leave the church at that age. It would maybe be like a scandal or something like that. Um, you know, in in, in a small community that is sort of centered around church, it would be a pretty big scandal if your child uh, you know decided they didn't want to go to church anymore.
Emma Goswell: 11:16
So it wasn't an option for you to go. I've read the rules. I'm not really agreeing with them. I'm going to skip the confirmation. I'm going to skip the confirmation. I'm going to find something else to do with my Sunday. Thank you very much.
Jordan Gonsalves: 11:25
No, yeah, no, I sort of doubled down. You know, it's funny because I think that when you talk to a lot of queer people, they sort of have a personality trait, many of them called being a people pleaser, have you heard of that.
Jordan Gonsalves: 11:41
Yeah yeah yeah, I knew that I was gay and I knew there was something different about me that I thought made me so unlovable, because that was the message that I was getting from everyone, and so I just wanted to be the perfect child for my parents. I wanted to overcompensate in so many ways, and so I just wanted to be the perfect child for my parents. I wanted to overcompensate in so many ways, and one of them was I knew I could please my parents if I went to church every Sunday and if I did all the things that I was supposed to do in church.
Emma Goswell: 12:14
But then, as we know, the closet is a cold and dark and lonely place and you know you're doing all this to please everyone else but at the end of the day you're not going to be happy. Are you living a lie and essentially lying to everyone that you know and love?
Jordan Gonsalves: 12:30
I'm guessing it was a tough place to be it was, and you know, um, in my work as a journalist I have actually interviewed many other people that have come out, and that time in the closet, like you mentioned, is so fascinating because it's hard to stay in there. It's hard to stay in there one because, like you mentioned, it's cold and dark, and two because all the cute boys are outside the closet. In the months, or maybe year, before I came out, it was becoming harder and harder for me to stay in the closet because I wanted to meet other guys, I wanted to dance with other guys, I wanted to kiss another man for the first time, I wanted to feel the embrace of a man on my body, and it became harder and harder and harder to hide that longing.
Emma Goswell: 13:24
You wanted to live basically, which is not a big ask, is it so? What led to eventually breaking down those doors then and coming out?
Jordan Gonsalves: 13:33
Well, when I was in college, the year before my final year in college, I had gotten an internship in San Francisco and I was going to school in New York and it was a really amazing opportunity.
Jordan Gonsalves: 13:47
They had offered to pay for my housing and offered to pay for my trip out there and everything. It was an amazing opportunity that I just couldn't deny. And I kind of thought of it as a sign. I thought, you know, damn like I'm getting this amazing opportunity to move out on their dime to like the gayest city in America. Why, you know, would I stay in the closet. So I made a promise to myself that I was going to come out that summer and I didn't know anyone either. So I thought, thought you know, nobody can judge me because I don't, no one knows me. So I got out there and I had actually met another one of the um interns, uh, and he turned out to be gay, and so I ended up coming out to him on one of the first days that we were there and he was the first then and he was a relative stranger.
Jordan Gonsalves: 14:44
I guess it's easy, right well, he had told me first, actually he had told me he was gay, and I thought, oh my god, like there are just so many signs here, um, and so, yeah, I um ended up coming out to him, and you know, then we actually ended up falling in love, and that was my first love that I was with. And so, as our relationship began to progress, it became more difficult for me to sort of live a double life anymore, and so I wanted to, you know, share that part of my life with my friends and family, um, and so I came back to school that semester. I came out to my friends they were all amazing, but the hard part was my parents and I think that's really what I define as my coming out story is, uh, telling my parents that not only was I gay, but that I'd been, you know, seriously dating someone for for a while but it's interesting that you were actually at school in new york, you know, which has got an amazing gay scene and history and heritage, as we know.
Emma Goswell: 15:47
But you know it took you moving even further away, didn't it?
Jordan Gonsalves: 15:50
I guess well, you know, emma, I think it. It goes back to this concept of shame and and just how pervasive it can be. I had lived in multiple very liberal cities. I had lived in New York for college and then, like I mentioned, I went to high school in Houston, which is another really largely liberal bastion of American life. But it didn't matter because I think in my brain I was so conditioned to believe what I believed and nothing and no one was going to change that for me, except, uh, except me and I'm guessing, by the time you did meet your first boyfriend, you would have been almost in your early 20s.
Emma Goswell: 16:38
That's a long time to stay in the closet, so how did it feel to finally, after all those years, kiss another man?
Jordan Gonsalves: 16:46
oh my god it. It was like. I guess the only way I can sort of describe it was I. I remember it. Actually it was, um, it was really corny. I think we were walking by the san francisco bay and there's this beautiful Bay Bridge that connects San Francisco to Oakland and they had just installed an art installation there where the bridge would light up in all these different colors and it felt like all of the electricity from those lights on the bridge had sort of transferred into my body and I felt alive. And I hadn't felt alive, I think, in my life before. I think I had just been sort of living at that point for many years. But I felt alive and I thought, wow, like this is what it's like to live authentically and to be myself that is not corny Jordan, that is fucking beautiful.
Jordan Gonsalves: 17:48
I'm imagining it was rainbow lights uh, in my, in the way that I remember it, yes, it was, but I think in reality it was uh. It was just uh, regular lights, I mean.
Emma Goswell: 17:59
I think you're the first person I've spoken to at malibu. I've spoken to a lot who actually fell in love with the first person they came out to. That's, that's a unique twist, isn't it?
Jordan Gonsalves: 18:09
it was yeah, we, we didn't stay together for very long. Um, so I am part of a larger statistic which is like yeah, you don't stay with your first love that long I wasn't expecting you to say you are now married. But yeah, I was very lucky, I was.
Emma Goswell: 18:28
But very important in your life. And then that gave you the confidence to finally broach talking to your parents. So let's see how that went then.
Jordan Gonsalves: 18:36
So that was the big one. That was the really, really big one because no-transcript for the engagement and it was the first time I'd seen my parents in a while. I'd been working and traveling and stuff and being at school, so I hadn't seen them in a long time. So I thought I kind of have to do this year I don't foresee another time when I'm going to see them. So I was so nervous and I waited until the last possible day and I sat my mom down. I think my dad had gone out to the bathroom or something like that.
Jordan Gonsalves: 19:40
So we were just the three of us in the hotel and he wasn't there. So I sat my mom down and I said I have to tell you something. And I said I'm gay and she, I remember, sort of just seemed so taken off guard. I don't even think she knew how to respond because I think it was like the last thing that she was expecting. And then my dad came back in the room and my mom had said you know, your son has something that he wants to tell you. My dad asked you know what's going on? And I told him I'm gay. And I had never really seen my dad ever cry before. But he was very emotional, you know, he was kind of like sobbing almost, and my mom was, you know, really upset too, or maybe not upset but crying for sure, and it just broke my heart to see the both of them crying like that. So I was too, and you know I remember my dad asking some really important questions. I remember he asked questions that kind of revealed things about the way that they grew up. I remember you know he had asked is there anything that you want us to know about this? And that was really important to me. I remember telling my parents. I just want you to know that no one made me gay and nothing made me gay. I am gay and I think that kind of dialogue was really important for us.
Jordan Gonsalves: 21:20
But it was a really hard couple of months. You know, I think it took a long time for them to accept me, accept this. Rather, you know they always loved me and accepted me, but I think it took a long time for them to accept that this was my reality. I think because, growing up in such a traditional home, my parents had dreams for me. You know, also being immigrants to the United States, my family had expectations of me. I think they always just really wanted me to get married and have kids in the Catholic Church with the wife that I'd married in the Catholic Church. And I think when I had come out, I had sort of taken those dreams from them and shattered them, and so they had to grieve that in addition to this new reality.
Emma Goswell: 22:14
I mean that's very thoughtful of you and mature, isn't it? Because it's very hard not to react that way at the first instance when you're faced with your parents crying. I mean that's, that's a lot to deal with, isn't it really? I guess for both parties. I think it takes a lot of time to adjust, doesn't it really? Once, when a child comes out, it really does.
Jordan Gonsalves: 22:33
And and for me it took me a long time too and in fact I didn't actually end up sort of understanding a lot of this until quite a while later I had gone on a trip to India for the first time as an adult.
Jordan Gonsalves: 22:48
I think it was like a month after I had come out. And on this trip I remember I had met some cousins for the first time and one of them I had gotten really close to and he had invited me out to a bar one night and we were having a drink and a smoke and I thought, damn, I should tell him that I'm gay right now. It just feels like the right moment. So I told my cousin and I have this distinct memory of him sort of putting his beer down and giving me a hug and saying I'm so happy for you and I'm so proud of you. I just want you to know that I'm not so sure that India will be and I want you to be careful of that. And I think in that moment so much had kind of clicked for me Like wow, it was never my shame, it was my family shame, it was my religion shame, it was my ancestor shame, it was my society, shame all projected onto me and I had carried that shame, you know, my whole life.
Emma Goswell: 23:56
And, you know, don't just blame yourself. I don't know what year you took this trip to India, but until fairly recently, thanks to the British Empire, they still had homosexuality as an illegal offence in India until very, very recently. So this is something that our country has been doing and religion has been doing for centuries. You know, persecuting homosexuals and making them feel inferior, and doing it through religion. So it's yeah, it's not a new thing, is it really? But you know, I'm hoping one day there'll be an end to it and gay people will be able to live their lives openly and freely. Can you see an end to sort of the shame that other LGBT people have endured over the centuries?
Jordan Gonsalves: 24:39
Oh, absolutely. You know, and I think it makes me so hopeful to see all of the amazing progress that you know we've seen over the last, really the last decade For me. In my project I interview queer elders. My project is about queer history my podcast and they talk about this amazing history that they lived through. And just sitting down across from someone who is just a few generations apart from me, it's astounding to see how far we've come in 70 or 60 or 50 years even. It's really really amazing just to see what a different life we live as queer people now than queer people lived in the 50s or the 60s.
Emma Goswell: 25:32
Well, it is a great project and let's talk about it then. This is your new podcast, which is called but we Loved. Tell us why you wanted to make this podcast, which is essentially finding out about, you know, lgbt people who've gone before us, who have paved the way for our lives right?
Jordan Gonsalves: 25:49
exactly. Yes, the reality is, emma. Um, when I came out I I didn't know that much about queer history. You know, like, like I mentioned, I grew up in Texas and there's not a particularly robust queer curriculum in Texas, but you know, I didn't know that much about it and I have this really vivid memory actually of kind of meeting a queer elder in my adulthood. I was about 21 years old and I was living in San Francisco having the time of my life. I had just come out there and I'd moved there permanently after I graduated and I met all these amazing friends and I was just having a blast and I had met this queer elder I guess he was maybe in his 60s or something like that and I remember us talking and I remember him kind of looking a little odd as we were chatting and I asked him you know what's wrong?
Jordan Gonsalves: 26:46
And he said I'm jealous of you Because when I was your age and I lived here, everyone was dying of AIDS and I was so scared to live my life in the way that you're living it, and it had hit me that I didn't know you know much about, I knew about AIDS and I knew about, you know all of the devastation and how sad it was, but I didn't truly understand kind of the generational gap that existed between my generation and older generations of queer people. For some reason we just don't talk to each other and I think what I've learned is that so much wisdom and so many amazing stories of courage and queer love have been lost because of that gap. And so this project is really all about closing that gap and so it's a queer history podcast, but it's. It really has this amazing element of sort of passing down stories and and wisdom from one queer generation to the next.
Emma Goswell: 27:50
I love the idea. It's just brilliant and, funnily enough because we were chatting before we started recording we've got a couple of similar guests and you've interviewed one of the people that I think is one of the most remarkable people I've ever spoken to on this podcast, and that's Martin Boyce, who is at the Stonewall Riots, and you know what a great episode for you to start with, because you've got to start with Stonewall, right, if you're a history LGBT podcast based in America. What was it like to meet him?
Jordan Gonsalves: 28:17
You know, it was just amazing and I think for me, even though I'm very much the host of this show, I'm a listener too. I'm learning so much of this history along with all of the listeners, and I had this amazing opportunity to sort of meet him around Thanksgiving in the US.
Jordan Gonsalves: 28:41
Thanksgiving is a huge holiday for us here oh, we've seen the films, don't worry um, and so you know, I remember on thanksgiving I I had kind of called him to do a little bit of my research, you know. I asked what are you doing on thanksgiving? He said I'm not really doing anything, I'm going to be by myself. So I was going to be by myself too. So we actually ended up hanging out together that day and he just told me the most amazing things that he lived through. And I think what was so incredible to understand was in our interview he talks about how at the beginning, before Stonewall, it was actually illegal to dance in a gay bar as a gay person. Well, there was no gay bar, but technically. But it was illegal as a gay person to dance with another person of the same sex or kiss or hold hands or anything like that.
Emma Goswell: 29:37
It was just extraordinary for me to sit across from this man that you know we're two generations apart, but because of what he fought for, I'm able to live my life I tell what the scary bit that in his interview was the level of violence you know he just expected to be beaten up and that bit where he talks about how his dad taught him how to use a knife so he could stab someone, potentially because he was subjected to that much violence on the streets of the out and proud city that you're now sitting in right now, was just remarkable, isn't?
Jordan Gonsalves: 30:11
it. Talk to him about this gratitude that I had, you know, like, wow, you know, because of you I don't have to endure that same violence. He then turned it back at me and said well, I have your generation and the younger generations after you to thank because, you know, we fought for Stonewall, but then the generation after fought for AIDS treatment and the generation after fought for gay marriage, and now your generation has its own unique fights that I'm going to benefit from. So it was really this amazing sort of exchange between generations.
Emma Goswell: 30:51
It's a great lesson and that bit at the end I actually had goosebumps and I've got goosebumps again when you reminded me what you said about the other generations doing just as much. Just give us an idea of some of your favorite episodes to come then, and what we can expect from the rest of the podcast.
Jordan Gonsalves: 31:05
Well, you know one of my favorite episodes God, I don't even know where to start, but yeah, one of my favorite episodes came out in June. It's actually two episodes it's a part one and part two. It's an AIDS love story and the title is called the AIDS Love Story. You Never Heard, you know. I don't want to ruin too much because I really love for people to get immersed in these stories Just give us a little flavor.
Emma Goswell: 31:33
Jordan, Just a small shot.
Jordan Gonsalves: 31:34
Sure, basically, I had met a man who lost his first love to aids in the 1990s and before he had died he had revealed to his partner that he had a son and that he couldn't see his son anymore because when he came out he had been excommunicated by the family and everything like that. So the son actually didn't know anything about him and had always thought that he had thought he was a bad person because he was told that he had abandoned the family. Anyway, when he died of AIDS, he had left a box of things that he wanted his son to have with the partner, and the partner kept the box for 30 years. And 30 years later, fate would have it, they actually found each other, the son and the partner. And so episode one is about the partner and his love for the man who died, and episode two is from the son's perspective and what it was to find all of this information about his dad. And it turns out he was gay too, the son.
Emma Goswell: 32:46
What a chance is. Oh my God, wow, that sounds brilliant, jordan, it's such a brilliant project. You know, the more I've done this podcast, the more I've realized.
Emma Goswell: 32:54
You know, unintentionally I've created a bit of an LGBT history podcast because you know, unintentionally I've created a bit of an LGBT history podcast because you know, the more you talk to people, the more, and then comparing the stories from older generations to younger generations about their coming out story, you know this almost is a sort of verbal history of how we live and how we come out as LGBT people. So you know we're both on similar paths. So long may you continue with your project as well, and thank you so much for talking to me.
Jordan Gonsalves: 33:21
I can't let you go there without asking you the question I do ask everybody, which is words of advice for people that haven't yet broken down the doors and come out of the closet you know, I I think that coming out of the closet and, um, sort of being proud is a journey that is individual and specific to each person, and one thing that I've learned from talking to all of these amazing elders about their own journeys is that it will happen when it feels right, and you should trust that intuition. I think, as queer people, we are taught from a very early age to lose sight of that intuition, that gut feeling, that gut instinct, and my advice would be to get in touch with that gut instinct again and allow it to lead you, and I think it'll never lead you astray.
Emma Goswell: 34:15
A massive thank you to the gorgeous Jordan. If you want to check out his podcast and please do, it's rather brilliant. It's called, but we Loved and honestly do listen to his interview with Martin Boyce. It really is quite something and I must check out that double episode that he mentioned the AIDS love story you never heard. Doesn't that sound remarkable? If you'd like to follow him on the socials, on the X platform he is at JOR, underscore GONZALVES. That's G-O-N-S-A-L-V-E-S. We're on there as well. If you want to come and say hello and chat, we are at Come Out Stories Also, don't forget you can check out our website as well comingoutstoriespodcastcom. Go and spread the word. Join us next episode when we'll be back in the UK chatting to poet and YA author Dean Atta, and he told me that he knew he was different from very early on. In fact, it was his primary school days.
Dean: 35:14
So in the school playground we used to play this game in primary school called Kish Chase, and the girls didn't mind being caught by me and sometimes I'm like why are they running so slow? And I was just like, oh gosh, I've got to kiss another girl. Yeah, it was quite funny because I was also invited to girls' sleepover parties and birthday parties and no other boys were. So I got a sense that I was very trusted and seen like one of the girls in some way.
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