Emma Goswell: 0:05
Well, hi and welcome to another fine episode of your favourite podcast, coming Out Stories. I'm your host, Emma Goswell, and my pronouns are she, her. We're a podcast from what Goes On Media and we bring you real life stories from right across the LGBTQ plus community every single month. Gonna start with some personal news from me. This is the last episode you'll hear with me as a single person Well unhitched anyway, because in just a few weeks I'll be getting married to my gorgeous girlfriend, siobhan. Currently I'm right in the middle of pre-wedding prep, but despite the stress, I do feel like the luckiest woman alive.
Emma Goswell: 0:48
Don't forget, I grew up thinking I'd never get married, as marriage equality seemed an impossible dream when I came out back in the 1980s. And it was only last year, when same-sex marriage had been legal for a decade here in the UK, that I thought you know what? I should take advantage of this hard fall to quality that we've won. So I got down on one knee and proposed. I'll let you know how it goes, but before I introduce this episode, I do need to take you back to the dark times of the 1980s for a quick history lesson, because there's a lot of talk in this interview about something called Section 28. And if you're not from the UK, it's something you might not be familiar with.
Emma Goswell: 1:30
You've probably heard of Margaret Thatcher, though, and back in 1988, let's just say she wasn't a huge fan of the gays, and her government introduced something called Section 28. It was a law that prohibited local authorities from so-called promotion of homosexuality. That meant that no LGBT literature was allowed in schools, and teachers were forbidden in law to even talk about gay issues in the classroom. It was in place until 2003, but its destructive legacy is still felt today. In this episode, you'll meet a brilliant children's and young adult author who's made it his mission to bring positive representations of young LGBTQ people into schools. He's called Simon James Green, and he's written over a dozen hugely successful books that feature young people from our community. He also goes into schools to give talks, and, sadly, because of his work, he's had his books banned and even faced death threats. Right, it's time to hear from Simon.
Simon James Green: 2:34
I was born in Nottingham actually and then ended up growing up in Lincolnshire from about the age of seven or so onwards. So very rural, very remote and yeah, I grew up in the kind of 80s and 90s basically, so I was a teenager sort of during the 90s in this very small little market town in the middle of rural Lincolnshire.
Emma Goswell: 2:53
yeah, and I'm guessing I'm going to hazard a guess there were other LGBT people around you, but you probably weren't that aware of them, or they were probably not very in your face, am I right?
Simon James Green: 3:04
absolutely I. I don't remember a single other lgbt person growing up that I knew personally. You know, there's occasionally someone on the television who was a bit camp. Do you know what I mean?
Emma Goswell: 3:18
that was as far as it went or lily savage, a few people have named checked her from your generation Exactly.
Simon James Green: 3:25
You know Freddie Mercury, possibly you know that sort of thing, and certainly nobody my age, and in fact you know, I would say I didn't even know myself at that age either, because of the climate.
Emma Goswell: 3:39
You know I was growing up in enjoying that time, you know well, I mean, you were bang in the middle of um clause 28, so you wouldn't have had teachers telling you this is what it means to be, yeah, gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender. They would not have been allowed to do that, correct so no mention of it in school whatsoever.
Simon James Green: 3:57
No lgbt books in the school library featuring, you know, queer characters or storylines. Nothing at all. And I think even worse than that. Actually I, you know, I queer characters or storylines nothing at all. And I think even worse than that. Actually I, you know, I do very vividly remember the level of hate in the tabloid newspapers at the time, you know, and screaming headlines, you know, full of hate and violence towards the LGBT community, whether it was AIDS or whether it was Section 28, whatever it might be, you know, I remember all those headlines.
Simon James Green: 4:26
I remember one in the Daily Mail in the kind of mid-90s that read abortion hope after gay genes findings and this idea that these scientists in America had supposedly discovered the gay gene. The gay gene, I remember that, yeah, the gay gene. And you know, and obviously if you were pregnant you'd have a little genetic test before the baby was born and if it was found out it was carrying the gay gene and would end up possibly being gay, you would obviously opt to have an abortion rather than give birth, you know, to a queer kid, and I remember reading that and thinking good grief oh my god.
Emma Goswell: 5:03
I mean, you can't think of anything more fascist, can you? And you really can't and the daily mail.
Simon James Green: 5:07
They you know saying abortion hope. You know the idea that it would be. It's such a good thing they discovered this supposedly.
Emma Goswell: 5:13
It was a heartbreaking moment, you know and did you have any inkling, or when was the first time you had an inkling that you know these headlines and these awful derogatory things were being said about somebody that you might become.
Simon James Green: 5:29
You know it's very interesting because at the time I was in complete denial about it. All you know, and I think that was a mix of fear from things like the headlines fear from things like the headlines and also, of course, being forced to live in complete ignorance because of section 28, because how can you possibly work out who you are if you're not given any information or knowledge about what you might be? You know, if you never see yourself, you've got nothing to gauge your feelings against. It's really, really hard. And then you know this idea that actually you know thanks to the tabloids and other people, this idea that actually being gay was so wrong, so abhorrent, so dirty, that it would almost certainly lead to getting aids and dying like those were very real fears back in the early 90s.
Simon James Green: 6:16
I distinctly remember I was terrified of that sort of thing. There was no way I was going to let myself kind of go into that place, go there and actually say to myself I think you're possibly gay, simon. Um, in reality I would say, yeah, I was probably around 13, 14 when I was having those sorts of thoughts and feelings but just doing a really good job of completely ignoring them and not kind of joining the dots and saying this is what that means or might mean, you know and were you sort of for want of a better expression passing us straight, because you know a lot of people I've spoken to for this podcast?
Emma Goswell: 6:58
a lot of men struggled with bullying because they were not exhibiting behavior that was being seen as masculine enough, you know, and it was other kids that were picking up on their otherness or queerness.
Simon James Green: 7:09
Yeah, I mean. Well, I mean, let's be real, you know I wasn't a sporty kid, I wasn't one of the laddy lads, you know I definitely wasn't chasing after girls and talking about them in the ways that you know the other laddy straight boys, straight boys were. You know, I hated playing rugby and football, but I absolutely loved things like badminton. I mean, in many ways, I know, uh, but in many ways the writing was slightly on the wall. Yeah, I was really into performing arts. I loved musical theatre. In that sense I was a bit of, a bit of a cliche, I suppose, and so there was always that sense, you know, and I did get bullied and picked on. You know I did get called gay and those sort of slurs were not a slur, but you know those things were said against me in a derogatory way for sure, so that sort of thing did happen.
Emma Goswell: 7:56
That must have hurt, though.
Simon James Green: 7:58
Yeah, of course it does. You know it's scary, that's the trouble. It's scary that other people perhaps know you or think they know you better than they know yourself, and also it reinforces just what it would mean if you were to admit it, I suppose as well. So again it's kind of piling more fear on top of all the existing fear. Already I explore a lot of that in Boy Like Me, my sort of semi-autobiographical novel that came out last year, because that's exactly what that's about. It's about growing up in a small town in Lincolnshire under Section 28 and how goddamn difficult that is to navigate and work out who you are and it very much you know keys into all the. You know the fear and terror of that along the way and other people's reactions of course as well, making that so much more difficult.
Emma Goswell: 8:50
And I've not read it, but I'm going to guess that maybe because of all those things that were going on and the things that were said to you, that you probably didn't come out at school as so many young kids today can and do at school, as so many young kids today can and do.
Simon James Green: 9:02
Yeah, correct, I didn't come out of school absolutely no, it wasn't really for me until I got to university, and that was the time I actually met other people who were already out as LGBT. That was a really big thing for me, you know, I remember walking into one friend's bedroom in the halls of residence and he had a copy of Gay Times just on the desk and I remember and that was like, yeah, it was like, it was like it was a gasp sort of moment, emma, it really was. It was like it was oh my god, and it was like a ripple of panic. I remember actually as well, but he ended up becoming a really good friend of mine. But that was the first time I met other LGBT people. And even so, though you know, because of everything that had gone on before, it still took me a good number of years to get to a point where I would be happy to say to someone that I was gay.
Simon James Green: 9:58
You know, and I think that just you know for me just goes to show how much damage that sort of legislation and those sorts of attitudes can have on young people. You know, because it's not just a case of saying, well, section 28, it's repealed in 2003,. It's gone away now. The fact is, stuff like that has a legacy that you know ripples down through years and years and years afterwards. You know, I'm not sure it necessarily ever leaves you. Sometimes, and those feelings of kind of shame and that sort of thing can stick with you for a long time, and they certainly did with me.
Emma Goswell: 10:31
I mean, that's real trauma, isn't it to be in the closet for that long? It's very, very difficult, and those doors sound like they were well and truly rammed shut for many years.
Simon James Green: 10:40
And the longer you spend in the closet, the more damaging it can be, I think absolutely right, it is, and I think for me one of the things I found in in writing my novels is that actually it has for that reason, been quite a healing kind of process actually, because I've been able to to sort of go back over those years, albeit in kind of fictional form, um, and kind of, you know, relive them to an extent, you know, and work through some of the stuff that was going on for me at the time and that's actually been, you know, that's been a really nice process actually to go through.
Emma Goswell: 11:15
Is there a sense that you're sort of vicariously living for your characters and you've written the sort of coming of age story that you wish you'd had? You know, I mean, one of your books that I've read is called Gay Club and it's about a very well-formed and popular LGBT club in a school. You know, the sort of thing that we wished we'd had in our youth, isn't it really?
Simon James Green: 11:33
Oh gosh you know, yes, I mean, if there had been an LGBT society at school or even just a couple of books in the school library featuring gay characters, you know, things could have been, and probably would have been very, very different. Yeah, I mean absolutely, and I think definitely there is a sense of vicariously sort of, you know, living through those characters and their experiences a little bit, especially when you kind of missed out on that yourself, which was definitely the case. So that has been a real bonus of writing these books, as well as the fact that I just think it's so important to put this stuff out there so that other young people have something, you know, have the thing that you didn't have, so that hopefully we can move on. That's the important thing.
Emma Goswell: 12:15
God, yeah, let's hope so. Well, certainly must be true for your book. The Big Ask, because that's about a guy asking another guy to the prom.
Simon James Green: 12:23
We didn't even have proms in our day, so I don't know if they were around for you, but we had a sweaty disco at a village hall with everyone drinking cider, underage and, you know, puking in the car park. I mean it was a mess. These days they've got, they've got limousines, double-decker buses, they do the whole thing. It's it's.
Emma Goswell: 12:42
You know, it's glamorous it really is, isn't it? Oh, dear world away. So go on then. Are we going to have to fast forward a bit then to when, um, you finally uttered the words to another human being that, uh, you were in fact.
Simon James Green: 12:55
Yeah, it's, it's really interesting actually, because I was thinking about this when I knew I was coming on the podcast and I can't remember one specific actual moment where I actually said it for the first time, which is really interesting.
Simon James Green: 13:07
Um, because I think for me what it was was very much a kind of gradual sort of dropping of hints and information, rather than there being a kind of one moment where I sat down or stood in front of one single person and said I've got something to tell you. I'm gay. I've never had a moment like that. As such, it's always been very much a sort of more gradual and subtle sort of process where either I've kind of eased people into the idea and I think that's probably as much about me as it is about anybody else and just the fact that I think for so long I was so nervous of saying the words, even when I'd accepted it myself, that I think I had to do it in a very kind of gentle sort of way, you know, almost testing the water, you know did you just say mum, dad, I'm going to work in musical theatre?
Simon James Green: 13:58
well, see, that's the interesting thing, is that absolutely, I think I think, like with my, with my parents, like there hasn't been one moment where I've just where I've just said it outright, but I've just let there be various things mentioned or little clues dropped along the you know the way. Basically, and of course they know I mean I write lgbt books and I've done lots of interviews where I've talked about it. For me that was an easier way of doing it. I've always shied away from the directly telling people thing. Like I say, part of that is a fear of saying it, or at least for a long, long time. I mean I wouldn't be like that now, but I was.
Simon James Green: 14:33
You know, back in my even back in my 20s, I was very much like that and also, I guess I suppose there is part of me that slightly resents the idea of having to tell people. I think of it being assumed unless said otherwise. You know that I would be straight. And it's interesting because a lot of the young people I meet in schools, you know, a question I get asked an awful lot is how do you come out? You know what, how do you do that they want?
Emma Goswell: 14:59
to know they need to book me for that one absolutely.
Simon James Green: 15:04
I say, well, you need, you need to get emma in. Yeah, absolutely. Um, but you know, I tell them my story and also I tell them look, there's no, there's no one way to do this and there's no right way to do it. You know, it's a very personal thing, it's up to you and I say it doesn't make you any more or less lgbt whether you come out to people or not. You know it's, it's who you are. That's the important thing, and deal with it how you want to deal with it. You know, and in a way, that's safe for you as well, because, of course, plenty of young people really don't have parents or families who it would be safe for them to come out to, you know, sadly. So you know there's a lot going on there, so I'm a big fan of kind of taking the pressure off it.
Emma Goswell: 15:48
Yeah, no, I can see that there is something empowering about that, because, you know, I do speak to a lot of people who say this is just bad bullshit, isn't it? Frankly, why do we have to come out straight? People don't have to do it. I'm refusing to. You know I have spoken to a few people in that exact position, but I do quite like the fact that you're. You're very out there professionally.
Emma Goswell: 16:06
You know you're known as an lgbt author yes all your books have got gay characters yes and yet you've never said to your parents that you're gay I know right it's quite mad really, isn't it?
Simon James Green: 16:17
that is the sort of contradiction absolutely the heart of me, I guess. But yeah, no, I do think you're right, emma. I think it's really important. I mean absolutely, yeah, resentful of having to do it, but at the same time, so important.
Simon James Green: 16:29
We have people out there who are loudly and proudly clear about who they are and I think I'm very, very keen about doing that in front of 200 year nine students, for example. I do that and very often they will say to me at the end of the talk so are you gay? Then as though it's not been very obvious for a whole hour, and I'll say to them you know, yeah, yes, of course. I think it's very important for young people to see that and to see people to see adults role models, you know, standing in front of them, being very clear about who they are, showing them. There is no fear, no shame in doing that and actually celebrating in front of them.
Simon James Green: 17:07
I think that's a really important thing for those young people. That's what I didn't have never had a role model like that, obviously at school or anywhere. Who did it? I think if I had, maybe I'd have been more like that when I was younger, maybe I would have had that moment where I'd actually said to everybody yeah, sure, okay, I'm happy to tell you all absolutely who I am, and not being scared about it. But it is a contradiction.
Simon James Green: 17:28
I absolutely agree with you, but it's now reached that point it's reached that point with kind of like family and stuff and and that you know, it's kind of like it's almost too late and like it's already, they already know. So it's like okay, I can't very well go. Oh, by the way, I'm gay and I'd be like, well, yes, um, we kind of knew that 20 years ago.
Emma Goswell: 17:48
Um, but okay what about partners, though? I mean, did it change when you started having relationships? Was that something that you had toach them? Bringing partners home?
Simon James Green: 18:01
Well, no, I've never. I've never been in a situation where I've bought a partner back back to where I lived, mainly because there haven't been that many kind of long term relationships where there's been someone for them to meet. To be honest with you, it's never really been a thing that's been that important to me, so that's never. That's never really been a thing that's been that important to me, so that's never really been a thing that's happened.
Speaker 3: 18:23
I mean, I don't you know, there would never be a problem with it.
Simon James Green: 18:26
My dad's not around anymore, but mum would be totally fine if I did that. Of course she would. But yeah, no, it's not actually cropped up as a kind of as a thing. For that reason, and any siblings. Yeah, I've got a younger brother. He's married to a woman and they have a son and he's yeah, he still lives back in Lincolnshire at the moment and presumably just completely cool, because he'll know what.
Emma Goswell: 18:48
You won't need to come out to him either. He'll just google you and find out. Yeah absolutely.
Simon James Green: 18:55
No, the thing is like all of my family and all my friends have, have only ever been totally supportive of everything I'm doing and have ever done. You know absolutely so I'm very lucky in that kind of sense. No, you know, the reason I haven't kind of explicitly come out to them is not because of any fear from what they might think. You know, it's always very much been my sort of thing, very much been my sort of thing. You know it's my sort of internal issues, I think, and struggles that have been what has stopped me, I think, being, you know, completely honest in that sense with everybody. And, like I said, you know that very much tracks back to, definitely, I think, the whole situation at kind of school and in the 90s and writing Boy Like Me, I really realised that was the case, you know.
Emma Goswell: 19:40
Which is amazing how much it's affected a whole generation of men and women.
Simon James Green: 19:45
Yeah, I meet so many people who it's had such a bad impact on. You know, and you don't always realise it at the time, of course, when you're living it, because I didn't realise back then, I didn't even really know about Section 28 until years later. It wasn't even on my radar. And yet here was this thing that was having this massive impact on my life and so many other people's lives, and we knew nothing about it.
Emma Goswell: 20:09
Really horrible, you know well, I'm slightly older than you, so I was going on all the marches to try and stop, were you?
Simon James Green: 20:14
yeah, well, thank you for that.
Emma Goswell: 20:16
I mean, I think you know it didn't really work, did it?
Simon James Green: 20:21
oh gosh, I mean the fact it was in place for so long. It's just incredible. But what's? You know? What is so disappointing is the number of people out there today who would quite happily see us return to that sort of thing, and we're constantly battling, you know, book bans and censorship and people saying certain books shouldn't be in school libraries, and you know, only just recently, you know, the Conservatives talking about, you know, sex education, how certain things shouldn't be mentioned until year nine when, quite frankly, it's absolutely too late me. How many people out there are so very happy to let young people live in fear and ignorance because that is what suits them and their agenda.
Emma Goswell: 21:05
You know it's horrifying speaking from experience as someone who got banned from a catholic school because, um, you write about young gay people. Yeah, absolutely.
Simon James Green: 21:16
I was aware of the rising tide of anti-LGBT hate, maybe like a year or two before that, where there'd been a real uptick, you know, on social media. But that situation really brought it home to me because I received a lot of death threats and abuse on the back of it. It really brought it home to me just how many people are out there.
Emma Goswell: 21:34
Was this all anonymous death threats? Simon online.
Simon James Green: 21:37
Was this all? Anonymous death threats, simon online? Oh yeah, yeah, you know it's people with kind of burner email accounts and online accounts and people writing on blogs anonymously. You know it's all stuff that is really really hard to track down to an individual and therefore it's. You know it's really tough to do anything about. You know people saying I deserve to die and burn in hell and that sort of thing. People saying you know was it was indoctrination. I was going into these schools to try and convince young boys to be gay and this idea that you know I'm so charismatic. People would just be inspired to be queer if they hear me talk, which you know I think is great, but um uh but you know, it's not.
Simon James Green: 22:17
The thing is, that's what these people believe happens. They think that if you read an LGBT book or you hear a gay guy talking about his life, that actually you might somehow change your own sexuality or identity. That's what they think.
Emma Goswell: 22:34
It's bonkers, isn't it yeah?
Simon James Green: 22:36
Personally, I mean people can do what they like. I have no time for it personally. I mean people can do what they like. I have no time for it personally, in any permutation. You know I I pretty much despise religion entirely. You know, if it works, works for you, then fine, you do that. But I think it's. It's certainly an issue in this country when we allow so many religions to run state schools and they can run them along the lines that they want to and I think, unfortunately, it's not true of all of them by any means. But in some cases I do think that short changes the young people, because the fact is, lgbt people are a reality, you know, and I think education should talk about and reflect reality and prepare young people for the diverse world in which they're going to be living and working.
Emma Goswell: 23:24
You know, not discussing it, hiding it away, is not going to help anyone in the long term and it's bad enough for the lgs and the bs, but I mean, my god, I wouldn't want to be a young trans person at the moment. You know it's a tough, tough old world out there, isn't it?
Simon James Green: 23:40
Really really horrific and horrible in every sense. And of course I meet a lot of young trans students in the schools I visit. You know almost every school has them. Of course they do. And the thing is, you know they they're so clued up about who they are. You know that sometimes in the media they're painted as like confused and almost like mentally ill almost, and other range of hugely offensive things. Not the case at all.
Emma Goswell: 24:09
As gay people were not that many years ago.
Simon James Green: 24:11
yeah, Right, this is the thing and again, you know, that's why I wrote Boy Like Me, because that sort of rhetoric, everything that was said, particularly about kind of gay men back in the 80s, is just being repeated now, you know, with trans people and it was nonsense back then, it's nonsense now, of course it is. I hope the books kind of help them as well, certainly with um, with gay club that I wrote two years ago which features a very kind of diverse, you know, basically kind of all, the, all the pretty much all the rainbows represented in gay club, you know, and um, that was really important to me because I wanted something really positive and fun actually out there.
Simon James Green: 24:49
You know that featured like a trans boy, for example, in the role of the campaign manager, and um just reminded everyone actually do you know what? It is really shit at the moment, but it is going to be OK and we will stand together and we will fight like we always have done.
Emma Goswell: 25:07
Well, I mean, I usually end the podcast with asking people what they would say to a young person or someone that hadn't come out yet, but I guess you get asked that all the time, don't you? Do you have any words of wisdom that you try and impart to young people who are struggling with their identity in any way?
Simon James Green: 25:23
It's interesting actually because, yeah, the latest book for Barrington Stoke, the Big Ask, is all about that pressure to kind of work out who you are and how other people often demand answers for you. And I think I wrote a little. I wrote a little little acknowledgement, a little dedication at the very start of the book actually, which I think sums it up, which is basically for everyone out there with questions take your time, you'll work it out. And I think that's probably what I would say to most young people. I would just say look, you know, don't put yourself under pressure, just breathe and take a moment and gradually, slowly. It might seem really confusing right now, but gradually and slowly things will slot into place and that you know, the mists will clear and you will work it out. Absolutely that's what I'd tell them.
Emma Goswell: 26:17
I love that, because everything's so intense when you're a teenager, isn't it? But actually life, if you're lucky, is a long and winding road, and even if you come out as one thing one day doesn't mean that you're not going to come out something different a few years down the line, you know exactly, exactly, that's the thing, yeah.
Simon James Green: 26:32
So I think it's really important to take that pressure off actually and, uh, yeah, kind of enjoy the journey. I suppose actually don't be, don't be afraid of it like I was for so many years, uh, because actually there's nothing much to be afraid of no, well, there you go, sam, and you're a.
Emma Goswell: 26:47
You're a good lgbt role model because you're uh, you know an lgbt trailblazer and icon, but yet technically you've never really come out absolutely, absolutely.
Simon James Green: 27:01
There you go. You see there's there's lots of ways to do it, including not doing it at all.
Emma Goswell: 27:06
So there you go. Possibly our first coming out story that didn't actually involve coming out brilliant. There you go. That's the wonderfully talented author simon james green, and I will say, even if you're an adult, do check out his work, because I've really enjoyed the couple of books that I read of his. I read gay club and the big ask. I definitely want to check out boy like me that he mentioned too. Oh, and if you want to link with him on the socials, he is just at simon james green on x time around. We've another author, I know, but we're moving on to adult literature and the writer behind a brilliant debut novel called the Library, thief Kuchanga Shenje is a trans woman who told me that she was bullied for her femininity at secondary school but managed to remain defiant.
Kuchanga: 27:57
I was mincing through school in my urban comprehensive in North London, going across the playground with a copy of French Vogue clutched at my breast and I would hold it like Cher in Clueless, clutched to my bosom in that way. Yeah, I was asking for it, but at the same time it was just really important to me on a spiritual level that there was always going to be essential parts of my femininity that couldn't be crushed.
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