Fostering Belonging: Anna DeShawn’s Journey Through Queer Identity and Media

Emma: 0:05
Well, hello. Thanks so much for checking us out. I'm Emma Goswell and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. We're a podcast from what Goes On Media, and we bring you real-life stories from amazing individuals who just happen to be part of the LGBTQ plus community. Oh and, in order for us to continue bringing you brilliant episodes every fortnight, we're currently looking for sponsors. So if you know someone who can help, or maybe you can help, please head to our website that's comingoutstoriespodcastcom and click on the work with us tab. We'd love to hear from you. Also, if you think you've got a story that might help others, why not put yourself forward to be interviewed? You can email us via that website, or you can also message us on the socials. On X, we are at Come Out Stories, and on Instagram, we are Coming Out Stories Pod Time. Now, though, to meet up with this week's awesome interviewee. She is Anna Deshawn, and she also works in radio and podcasting, but in the US, she told me, she identifies as a black queer woman and also as a social entrepreneur Upbringing. Anna DeShawn: 1:21
Yeah, I grew up on the south side of Chicago my mom, my dad and my sister, who is 16 years older than me, so she was like a second mom. I have a huge family. My dad is one of four, my mom is one of 10, maybe 12. Wow, daddy was a Rolling Stones. So I have a huge family. My mom is from Mississippi, my dad is from Chicago, grew up in a working middle class home, my dad's a teacher, my mom is an accountant business manager and I had a great childhood. Emma: 1:54
Your dad was a teacher. Does that mean your family were quite well educated and does that mean that they were tolerant when it came to having a queer child? Or is it not that obvious, isn't it? Doesn't not that straightforward? Anna DeShawn: 2:06
it's not that straightforward. But yes to the first half of that. Uh, my, my dad is very well educated, has a couple of master's degrees. My sister has a couple master's degrees. My mother worked her way through school, got her undergraduate undergraduate degrees. Anna DeShawn: 2:23
But also my family is very religious. My father's family started a church on the south side of Chicago. My dad has one of his degrees is in theology and divinity and so he pretty much is a pastor without having a church. So I grew up in two churches. My parents actually met at a Lutheran church in school because my dad was the teacher there and my sister was going to school there. So they had like a little scandal, love affair a little at that church and that's still where my parents attend today. So they've been at that church for over 40 years. So, yeah, my family's very religious. So it wasn't as obvious. I mean my dad, when I came out to him he said I hadn't, I just hadn't found the right guy yet. So that happened a couple of times. My mom said she always knew, she just never thought I'd say anything. Emma: 3:08
Yeah, we'll come to those conversations in a little while, but so what sort of messages were you getting about homosexuality or what it meant to be gay when you were growing up in that religious background? Anna DeShawn: 3:18
I don't remember anyone ever saying anything specifically to me, but I understood that it wasn't normal quote, unquote, right, it was not the norm, it was not something that was going to be necessarily accepted. That was clear to me. Emma: 3:31
And when did you first realize? Oh, hang on, there's something going on here. I am not as obsessed with boys as much as my mates are, or there's something different about me. Anna DeShawn: 3:41
Definitely high school. Definitely high school. Everybody had a boyfriend. I did not and I was not interested in boys in the same way and they were having all types of escapades and I did not. I was just not interested. But it was definitely in high school where I began to recognize oh, maybe there's something different about me. Anna DeShawn: 4:05
So, did you never date a boy? I never dated a boy. I've never had sex with a guy. Yeah, there was a guy who had a crush on me in high school and that was okay, that was fine. But I was never crazy attracted to guys. I had this one guy at one point I can't even remember his name and that was fine, but it was nothing like the stories my friends were telling. It was nothing similar to that. Emma: 4:32
Were they questioning it? Were they going Anna, who do you fancy and you know why haven't you got a boyfriend yet? Were there questions? Anna DeShawn: 4:40
I remember a rumor in high school that had surfaced, like Anna's gay. And I was like what? And everyone else was like no, that's just how Anna dresses, you know everyone. Just, I was a town boy, no doubt about it. But people were just like that's just how Anna dresses, that's just how Anna is. She's not gay, you know. And I had not reconciled that myself. It was just who I was as far as I was concerned. So the answer was no, until college. Emma: 5:09
But when they were saying, oh, Anna's gay, was there any negativity around it? Was there any bullying around it? Because I was spoken to plenty of people who did have a terrible time at high school because of it. Anna DeShawn: 5:19
Yeah, I never got bullied. You know, for all intents and purposes I could probably be considered a cool kid and my dad was the principal Also. Let's also put some context around this. My dad was the principal at the high school. My dad was the dean of students, my aunt was the secretary. Okay, my family, my cousins, went there. My sister graduated from there, so my family had a legacy. At this high school I was an athlete, I was in the choir, I was in the band, I was student council president. I was pretty involved. You were popular. Yeah, I was popular, but popular also because my dad was the principal and I had grown up at this high school my whole life. So I was not bullied and no one necessarily questioned that rumor. That rumor didn't go very far, right, so I never had that experience. Emma: 6:08
Well, that's good to hear. And what about your first experience when you realized the penny dropped? You know, you said that other people were saying Anna's gay, but when did the penny drop for you and when did? Anna DeShawn: 6:22
you first think, oh, I've got the hots for a woman. Now I would say in college there for a woman. Now I will say in college there was a woman there and she was just so hot and I still was still kind of like toying with the idea. A lot of people was like, oh, she gay, but I ain't own it. So you know, it's one of those things where if you don't say it yourself, people just it's just a nah, you know, it's just a nah, you know it's everybody just talking until the person actually says it Right. And so I remember that we were at a party and we were partying and all this stuff, and she just kissed me, she just laid it on me and I was like, well, I think I like that, I like that a lot actually you were lucky. Emma: 7:00
Anna, the first person you found to say kissed you. Anna DeShawn: 7:03
She did, she was aggressive. She did, she was, she was aggressive. I think she was tired of me probably not making a move or something. Yeah, and so we were together our whole, my whole college career. Actually, we were together for all four years of college. Emma: 7:15
Wow, yeah, and when you went home from that party, how did you sort of process it were you? Were you traumatizing anyway, or were you just like madly in love and didn't care what anyone? Anna DeShawn: 7:26
thought oh child, it was a total U-Haul situation. I'm almost certain. There was no hesitation. I was like, I really like that. Emma: 7:36
I'm moving in tomorrow, yeah. Anna DeShawn: 7:38
Most likely. I mean I remember us rooming together and I know we lived together, had an apartment at one point as well. I remember us rooming together and I know we lived together, had an apartment at one point as well. So it wasn't long, and you know how it is in college at that time especially, nobody's thinking about dorm room assignments, lesbians living together. I mean, you know it was separation of boys and girls at the school. We had a winning situation. Emma: 7:59
Yeah, you did, didn't you? Yeah, fantastic. So that's interesting, because when you first said how you identify, you mentioned the word queer and you mentioned gay. That was the first time you mentioned the word lesbian. Do you have a preference or do you just sort of use whatever comes out your mouth at the time? Anna DeShawn: 8:15
I don't know whatever comes out my mouth, child, it's all the same to me. The word queer. I became acquainted with that word during my master's work in Ithaca College. With that word during my master's work in Ithaca College and I was, I had took a class at Cornell and it was a queer theory class and that was the first time I had heard the word queer. And then there was a queer conference that took place at Cornell and, understanding the framing of that word, I began to adopt that word during that time. So that was about 17 years ago. But at the end of the day, black, lesbian, fits, child, gay, same gender, loving, pick one. Emma: 8:50
And then for me they all are the same because certainly what I grew up in the 80s, 70s and 80s I'm probably a bit older than you, I imagine, but queer was just seen as a really awful slur, and there's lots of gay men and I just cannot abide the word because that's what they were, you know, spat at in the playground, but it's I like the way that it has been totally reclaimed and and actually a lot of people feel more comfortable saying that than than saying lesbian, aren't they? Or bisexual or whatever. Anna DeShawn: 9:16
I think so and I and I respect folks who choose not to use that word because I can understand the harm that came along with that word at a specific time right in this country. So I understand that 100% and I also understand the reframing of it because for me it's less about the binary, it's like breaking the binary. Lesbian is very clear. It's women who are attracted to women, gay men who are attracted to men. I find myself attracted to the female form. Child are you? You are fine to me, okay. So for me, queer encapsulates more of who I am and doesn't feel as restrictive as the other words. Emma: 9:56
and yet, and still, whatever, black lesbian sure well, you mentioned black a few times there as well. Is it harder, do you think, to come out in the black community? Plenty of people have told me that, but was that true? Anna DeShawn: 10:09
for you folks, especially in religious settings. But I think the right wing Republicans in this country are very white and evangelicals are also very homophobic, child so and the South is very homophobic and there's a lot of white folks mixed up in there too. So I think that narrative doesn't necessarily fit or align. I think it's hard, no matter who you are, to be able to say who you are and live in your truth 150% of the time. In my case it was tough. Just because I grew up so religious, I just didn't know what my family was going to say. I remember having a lot of anxiety around that. I remember having a friend circle in college where we had I remember actually we talked about like, if I come out and they're like we're going to be your family forever, so, whatever happens, we've talked about like, if I come out and they, they're like we're going to be your family forever, so, whatever happens, we are family, you know. So I remember that support system being there because I really didn't know what was going to happen. Emma: 11:12
And what did happen? How did that conversation go down? Did you choose a moment? Did you sit your parents down together? What did you do? Anna DeShawn: 11:21
I didn't sit them down together. I did one at a time, don't know why, but I did. So I came out to my mom and she was like, oh, I always knew, I just never thought you were going to say anything. And we cried a bit and she loved on me. And then I came out to my sister and she was like she started putting the pieces together. Like is that person your girlfriend? And I was like, yeah, because we were coming home from college together and she would be at my house for the holidays. All these things was happening. When my mom started to put the pieces together, she was like I don't care who you are, what's not going to happen in this house? Is y'all sleeping in the same room? Because we were just breaking all the rules in this very Christian house. So that happened. Anna DeShawn: 12:04
My dad he was just like, oh, you just haven't found the right guy yet. So he was in quite some denial for some time because he was just a very religious guy. What he was taught was that it wasn't okay. And I think that, as my family showed their acceptance and I'm sure he probably talked to some friends and got some counsel he came right on around so he walked me down the aisle on my wedding day. Stop it. He comes to the gay bars where I have my gala every year and everybody loves him and asks about him and you know, he's good now. Emma: 12:39
That must have been a very proud moment. Then Tell us about your wedding. I'm just planning my wedding at the moment. Actually, I'm always up for hearing about my wedding stories oh yes, the wedding was epic. Anna DeShawn: 12:49
I think we had 300 guests. Wow, it was a huge situation. It was awesome. We did have some strategic things we had to do, because I do have a religious family, and so my mom was like we have to send everyone invitations, even if we don't think they're going to come or even if we don't think that they are accepting. And so we did that and, you know, pleasantly surprised, pleasantly surprised the people who I didn't think were going to show showed up and the people who I thought were they didn't. You know, life is funny that way. But all in all, the people that were supposed to be there were there. We had an amazing time. Anna DeShawn: 13:26
My dad held out a little bit on the walking me down the aisle, but my mom played a game. She was like just tell him I'm going to do it, tell him I'm going to walk you down the aisle and then watch what he says. And so I did. I said mom just told me she's going to walk you down the aisle. He was like what I said? Mom said she's going to do it. So that quickly changed his mind. Emma: 13:50
I love that so he came around, then I mean that's brilliant, isn't it? Sometimes it is a bit of a journey for parents, isn't it? You know they have to learn. You know, with you. They've had all those years of programming in advance of having a queer child, haven't they? They never thought? Anna DeShawn: 14:03
they'd have to confront it A hundred percent, and I think my dad and I have never really talked about it, but I feel like he had probably some guilt or felt like maybe he had something to do with it. I was definitely a town boy. I was definitely a daddy's girl. He's a hall of fame coach. I grew up a gym rat. I was an athlete. We have the same initials and he dresses fancy all the time, so he gets his initials embroidered on his shirts and so when I was a kid I would wear his shirts. He's a big guy these three X shirts to church, these button up shirts, just because the initials were the same. Anna DeShawn: 14:40
My mom got tired of me during Easter OK, because my mom was that lady, ok. So I grew up with the ruffled socks and the dresses and the bowls and the barrettes and all these things. And when I got to the age where I could tell her I don't like dresses OK, and she tried and shopping with me was the utmost frustration I put her through hell. She gave up, and so my dad would take me east of shopping and shopping for clothes and I would come back with suits. We would go to the the men's shop, uh, where he'd get his suits made and he we would get stuff tailored. I mean, I think he felt like he probably had something to do with it, but it was just what I was comfortable in, so I think he had to maybe work through some of that, yeah and what about friends? Emma: 15:24
Did you come out to them first then? I guess Because you said that you wanted that support network. How did those conversations go? Anna DeShawn: 15:31
I don't think we had like a conversation conversation. I think they were waiting on me to figure it out and that kiss figured it out real fast. I think they were waiting on me to be able to say it out loud. It took a while on me to be able to say it out loud. It took a while for me to be able to say it out loud. Emma: 15:50
It does, though, doesn't it? And it is. You know it shouldn't be a big deal, and yet it still is. Even in 2024, it's still a big deal to say those words, isn't it? Anna DeShawn: 15:59
It is. It is Because there's something about being vulnerable in that way, and I think this is where queer folks are just so different, because when you're up against who you are at such a young age, it really does shape your whole worldview. And I'll use I statements here because I grew up in the church and because the church said this was wrong and because I knew I was not wrong because of everything else I had learned. You question a lot of stuff really early on and begin to look at things a lot differently than if I did not have to confront the essence of who I was at such a young age. Emma: 16:42
There is a lot to think about. So I always ask this question on my podcast. You know, what advice would you give to someone listening who you know not necessarily younger some people leave it till a lot later in life but someone that hadn't gone through that process yet and was still a bit scared to put their head above the parapet and say hello, I'm here, I'm gay, I'm queer or whatever. Anna DeShawn: 17:03
Just be kind to yourself, give yourself the patience and the room and do it in your own time. I hate when people out people like that is not your place, it's not your business. Ok, I think people come out when it's time and when they feel safe to do it. You know everybody is not in a safe place to come out financially safe. You know employment might be a challenge. It might not be safe with your employer. All these places that we inhabit in our everyday lives it just might not be safe. And today, especially with all of the laws happening here, all the anti-trans, all the anti-LGBTQ laws there's been over 500 introduced, right, I think the latest that I saw. Emma: 17:46
Yeah, that's terrifying. Anna DeShawn: 17:49
It's terrifying for people to think about coming out today. So be kind to yourself is what I'll say, and do it when it feels right. Emma: 17:58
Well, don't you mention work there? It sounds like you've sort of created your own media empire, haven't you really? But was there a time when you had to come out to employers, or you felt awkward about coming out to employers, or not? Anna DeShawn: 18:10
No, by the time I, when I came out to my parents, I was clear that I could care less. Who else knew? Yeah, I think that's a. I think that for me, that was what was on the other side of this thing. Once that was over, I was like, oh, freedom, freedom from that. Yeah. Emma: 18:28
What's interesting is like myself actually, I know I know a few people that have done this we've kind of made careers out of being gay and out of being how proud we are of who we are and how proud we are of our community and we want to give back to our community and that's kind of led you on your career path, hasn't it really? Anna DeShawn: 18:47
It really has, and I've really been blessed, in the work environments that I've been in, that I didn't have to be in the closet. There was no expectation of that. The first job out of school, my boss was a lesbian. Anna DeShawn: 19:01
She ran the company um so that was no problem there, and then I ended up at a tech startup with a whole bunch of young people and, if you can imagine a tech startup, that's exactly the environment. It was. No one cared about me being queer and so I never had to be in the closet there. I was never in an old school corporate environment that being who you were was going to be called into question. So I was really blessed in that way. Anna DeShawn: 19:28
There was only one time at the tech startup where I had to be like this ain't gonna work. It was they were supposed to be taking company pictures and they put all these rules around what you were supposed to wear and look like. I was like I had to reply back. I was like so you know I'm not wearing any of this right, and you know that this ain't right, right. And they came back and they fixed it. They, you know, they recognized, yeah, that ain't right and it wasn't a big deal, it was no big blow up, it was an email and then they fixed it right, uh, yeah. So that was the sort of environment I was in and, to your point, I have I've made in a career out of being proud and queer and black and, yeah, wanting to tell our stories, and in so many ways I come out every day when people ask me what I do for a living. And well, I'm just a queer. Emma: 20:16
Uh, out here doing queer things, telling queer stories, you know yeah, so tell us a bit about all the work you do then. I know there's sort of many prongs to it, isn't there, but it's all. It's all media related, really. Was it the radio station that came first? Tell us a bit about setting that up it was the station came first. Anna DeShawn: 20:34
I started it in November of 2009 on blog talk radio and I was just invested in telling our stories. At that time I wasn't bought in that it needed to be queer all the time. It was not. If you find a logo of E3 radio from back in the day, it's purple and white. There is no rainbow in the middle of it. I had not bought into that, but it was clear after some time that that's exactly what I cared about, because that was every guest. Every freaking guest was queer. So, like Anna, get out your own way. That was a moment, so it was a passion project and I just loved it. I love radio. That's what I went to school for. I love media. I've always been invested in telling stories. It's just always been in me. I wanted to be a sports broadcaster. I wanted to be Robin Roberts. Emma: 21:16
I had to look this person up, by the way, because it's on your website that you've always been in love with. Anna DeShawn: 21:21
Oh, yes, you looked them up. Yes, everyone in. Emma: 21:24
America will know who she is, but you know international listeners might not. They might not is, but you know they will. Anna DeShawn: 21:28
International listeners might not, I don't know they might not, but just know she was amazing and she was the only black woman on sports television here in the states while I was growing up. She was my representation at it's possible, and now she's she's on national television and doing her thing. But I just felt a connection with her too, because her family was from Mississippi, where my mom is from, and I just felt like she came from there and she's here. I can do it too. So that's where the radio station started. It took many forms over the years. Today we play queer music all day long, and then we have the Queer News Podcast was born out of that that I host now every Monday. I would love for people to check out Queer News, our Queer News Podcast. We drop four to five news stories that I think queer folks care about that aren't getting the news coverage that they deserve, and so we're creating a space where we can have our own news, where we can follow up on our own stories, where we're always the top story. Emma: 22:22
Yeah, and of course it's international as well, isn't it? Because I know one of your recent episodes covered the legalization of gay marriage in Greece, which was quite a big deal just a few weeks ago, wasn't it? Anna DeShawn: 22:32
Yes, absolutely. I love following what's going on around the world when it comes to LGBTQ rights. I know the US is seen as sort of I don't know what it's seen as child, to be honest. But I mean it's legal, but marriage is legal, but there are so many fights happening here. There's so many fights going on across the world. There are people who are literally fighting for their lives and their livelihoods in other parts of the world, and so I'm always very interested in what's happening everywhere. Emma: 22:58
I mean, you could have a full time job just covering all the legislation changes in America, couldn't you really? And it's almost like one step forward, two steps back sometimes. Isn't it really history? It really? Anna DeShawn: 23:08
is. Nadine Smith has a wonderful analogy. She's the executive director of Equality Florida and she is fighting in Florida against one of the biggest bigots we've seen in our lifetime, ron DeSantis, and she has this analogy where she calls the slingshot analogy, where right now we're being pushed backwards and we feel like we keep getting pushed back, and pushed back, and pushed back, and she says what happens is, though, when the when they think they got you in the slingshot releases, you end up further ahead than you were when they first started. And she said we just got to keep fighting because we're gonna win and we're gonna be farther ahead when we get done. So I hold on to her analogy really close because it's really hard right now yeah, that's a brilliant way to look at it. Emma: 23:50
Actually, we have and we have to keep fighting and, like you said, we have to keep telling our stories and pushing our truth and making the world aware of what the queer community are going through absolutely because. Anna DeShawn: 24:01
But even just recently, what's happened here in the states with next benedict, 16 year old non-binary sophomore who was beat, was beat up in their bathroom and then, passed away the next day and had been bullied for over a year and no one did anything Right. Anna DeShawn: 24:17
I mean, these things are happening. Trans women are being murdered, no one is being held accountable and for some reason, people think hate is free speech and hate is not free speech. Hate is hate. It's very simple. We teach our children hate is wrong, and yet adults grow up in hate all over the place. So things that people make very complicated for me seem very simple. Emma: 24:40
So you've got the radio station and the news podcast, but tell us a bit now about the Cube, because that's your own platform, isn't it? How did that come about? Anna DeShawn: 24:49
It was in a transition with the station and in a meeting where we started talking about podcasting because podcasting hadn't gone away. People started listening to radio differently and we started consuming media differently. We started consuming media on demand, like whenever we want to right. I was like we have to transition into podcasting if we're going to remain relevant. And so I tell people all the time the Cube was born out of E3 Radio. Literally, e to the power of three is to cube something mathematically. And it hit me in the shower and I was like, oh, we just changed the C to a Q and make it queer and now we have the Cube. So, quite literally, the Cube was born out of E3 Radio. Emma: 25:28
Very clever. So what does the Cube do? Anna DeShawn: 25:30
So we're a platform a curated platform for you to discover the very best black and brown podcasts out here in the world. And so we're producing our own pods. We call them Cube Originals, and we're telling stories black LGBTQ stories and folks at the intersections and then the platform is child unheard heard all types of things. They'd be like anna, you the bumble of podcasting. I was like, all right, like we'll match you up to your favorite pod. That's cool. I've also heard we like the black queer spotify. I said you know, if that works for you, we can be that too. For the most part, podcasting has been a white male game and today 43, 43% of the people listening are people of color. But you couldn't tell that by opening any podcasting app today. So in my mind, the Cube is the first platform that is centering the lives of black and brown folks in this space and creating a place for people to find the best content. So that is what the Cube is. Emma: 26:27
I do like the idea of a black queer spotify. That just sounds exactly what the world needs really I think so, I think so, and where are you going to take it all next, then you've got. You've got quite a big media empire already, but what's next for you then? Anna DeShawn: 26:42
well, we've been doing these silent parties in my that. I think they're gonna take off. I don't know where it's gonna take me, but I feel like they're going to take off. I don't know where it's going to take me, but I feel like they're going to catch on. So we take silent headphones, we take our podcasts and we bring them as an event, and so we listen to snippets three to five minute snippets of podcasts and then we talk about them in community and have some of the most honest, raw conversations. It is so good. We're on a college tour. We just did two stops in New York and I'm looking to take this program across the country. Emma: 27:15
Oh, bring it to England please. I'll come along, come on. Anna DeShawn: 27:18
Emma, hook it up. I'm here for it. Okay, let's do it. I've been wanting to come to London. I want to come to the podcast show. Emma: 27:36
So, yeah, that's, that's the next thing. Fantastic. Well, carry on being fabulous and queer and running your own media empire and inspiring the next generation, because see what Robin Roberts did for you, you will be doing for the next generation, and that's just so, so powerful, isn't it? Anna DeShawn: 27:44
I'm going to sit with that. I'm going to sit with that, I receive that, I receive it and I'm going to sit with it. Emma: 27:51
You don't want to be called a role model but you are. Anna DeShawn: 27:54
I don't mind it. I don't mind the role model title being aligned with Robin Roberts in that way. Thank you for seeing that she means so much to me. So the thought that I can mean that much to somebody else, right, is a lot for me to take in, but I receive it. I hope that my work does inspire other people to do their work and to live in their truth and to speak their truth. That is my hope for the work, and it is still hard for me to receive it when someone says it out loud. Emma: 28:24
One and only Anna Deshawn talking to me there. A huge thank you to her for taking time out of her busy day. Do go and find her. She is Anna Deshawn across all social media. Oh, and do check out her brilliant content too. E3 Radio and the Queer News podcast you heard about is also on YouTube, by the way, and you can find more about the Cube that she talked about by following the cube app on instagram x and basically all the socials. That is the q u b e app, just to make it clear. Oh, and listen, you really don't want to miss the next episode. Jenny is a trans woman who really jumped into the deep end with her coming out the first time she ever left the house dressed as her true self, in women's clothes was also the first time she did a stand-up comedy gig. Yes, really, she'd previously dressed at home in secret and she told me it had caused all sorts of problems. Jenny: 29:24
I would say there were loads of times that mysterious things happened in my house that people couldn't explain. My mum found a pair of tights once. My girlfriend at the time certainly didn't wear tights. So when my mum found the tights she thought I was seeing somebody else and had a real, real go at me that I was cheating on my girlfriend.