Emma Goswell: 0:05
Oh hi, thank you very much for clicking and choosing this podcast. Shall I introduce myself? My name's Emma Goswell, I live in Manchester, england, and I'm your host for Coming Out Stories. So if you're new to us, we're a podcast from what Goes On Media and we bring you real-life stories every single month from fabulous individuals who just happen to be part of the LGBTQ plus community. Now, in this episode, you're going to hear from Dean Atta. He's an award-winning author of novels aimed at kids and young adults. Having said that, he has just penned his first adult book. It's a very personal memoir called Person Unlimited, an ode to my black queer body. Now, dean's a Londoner with both Jamaican and Cypriot heritage, something that really informs his book and something that we touched on in our interview too. But I started by asking him when he knew he might be different.
Dean Atta: 1:03
I think when I was about six, when I wanted a Barbie doll, really, that was when I kind of got a sense that that was different. And also, you know, when I went to play at other people's houses the girls had Barbies most of them, but boys didn't. They had Action man, they had trucks and cars and video games kind of were universal for boys and girls. So you know, when people came around, um, if it was a girl, like I might show her my Barbie, but if it was a boy, I'd be more like let's play my, my Mega Drive or Nintendo on my you know the games consoles, and I would keep Barbie hidden.
Emma Goswell: 1:40
Isn't it interesting how, at such a young age, we know the rules and we know we should sort of hide parts of ourselves? I guess you know, you're sort of censoring yourself, even at the age of six. It's terrible, isn't it?
Dean Atta: 1:52
really, but also in the school playground. We used to play this game in primary school called kiss chase, and the girls didn't mind being caught by me, like, and sometimes I'm like, why, why are they running so slow, like, and I was just like, oh gosh, I'm gonna kiss another girl, like, and so, yeah, it was quite funny because I was also invited to girls sleepover parties and birthday parties, um, and no other boys were. You know, I was obviously invited to boys parties too, but, like, I was the only boy invited to girl sleepover parties. So I got a sense that I was very trusted and seen like one of the girls in some way, even though I didn't identify that way at all, like. But I just was like, okay, if I'm invited, it's a party, there'll be food and there'll be, we'll have fun and it'll be great.
Emma Goswell: 2:41
So that's interesting, isn't it, that you had a different, a sense of how you were different, but so did the other kids. You know, they they pick up on things, don't they? But it sounds like from what you said that that sort of manifested itself in a positive way. But was it ever negative from other boys saying that you were a girl in a negative way, or was there any elements of bullying?
Dean Atta: 3:01
no, no one said I was a girl and no one like pressured me to play football. Um, so I would do things like skipping or cat's cradle with a bit of string that you loop around and I remember that from the 70s Dane, yeah, and these hand clapping games where you clap and sing a song and like so I was happy, go lucky, and I think primary school was it was quite a breeze.
Dean Atta: 3:25
It was secondary school when things were a bit more tense and I kind of got the impression that people would say things to maybe provoke me, like not in a negative way, but they'd say, oh, you're always with girls like, which one's your girlfriend? Like you know, you're such a ladies man and I'd be like, okay, um, yeah, if you say so, and obviously I'd have crushes on boys, even like ones I was close friends with, and not tell them how I felt. And then when I did come out when I was 15 it was not an accident but it wasn't intentional full coming out there was just one boy, um, when I was 15, that I had a sense that he might like me back. You know, from the times we'd hung out, you know, in groups, never just the two of us, but I just got a sense of he.
Dean Atta: 4:12
Always his looks lingered on me, like you know, I obviously looked at him a lot and I felt like there was something there. So I wrote him a little note, a little letter, and you know I was one of those kids already that would like write notes and pass them around fast to my friends, and I did a similar thing with him and wrote a note about him saying I had a crush on him and would he like to be my boyfriend. I think there were even tick boxes for yes or no. Oh my God.
Dean Atta: 4:38
You get multiple choice like a quiz and then he wrote back and let me know that he was bisexual, um, but he had a girlfriend at another school and I thought the girlfriend was made up like. But I actually found out some years later that she was real, because she then moved to our school and she corroborated this story of being his girlfriend back then. But that was it. But everyone kind of found out in a kind of like whisper game, that I'd asked him out and he said no, and so what had happened was oh no, it wasn't about me being gay.
Dean Atta: 5:16
It was like, oh, he said no, you were rejected like um, and so once I'd confirmed, you know, they'd asked me oh, are you gay? And and I'd say yeah, and they're like, is he gay? And I was like that's up to him to tell you. Like I didn't kind of want to out him, I just wanted to not hide who I was anymore. But then there was never another boy at school that I made advances to. I kind of just let it be after that because I just thought like it's too much drama isn't it just any sort of relationship?
Emma Goswell: 5:48
um, let's just sort of place this geographically and in a time zone. So this was London in the um mid 1980s right.
Dean Atta: 5:55
Well, that's when I was born. Um, I was born in 84, so this was London in the late 1990s. Yeah, that's when, um, I was at secondary school. It was like it'll be fine when I go to uni, that's when things will get going. That's what I said to myself in the end, because I was just like there were still people around not at school, that like kind of people introduced me to like you know, someone was like meet my hairdresser or like I'd go on like websites and, you know, talk to older guys. But it all felt a bit like seedy to me. I didn't really enjoy that side of things and I wanted an out in the open relationship with someone my own age. That was the goal.
Dean Atta: 6:34
Like that was the goal, yeah, so the fact that there were older guys or closeted guys that were interested in being with me was fine, but that never felt like the real thing to me, like because I wanted it to be out in the open and I wanted to feel like I could bring them home to my mum. I kind of haven't mentioned the coming out to my mum yet, so maybe I should no, I was going to say so.
Emma Goswell: 6:59
By the time you'd gone to university you had. It sounds like you were quite out at school.
Dean Atta: 7:02
I was out at school. I was out at school and it did go okay that's quite a big deal, isn't it?
Emma Goswell: 7:06
and were you in the mind, very much in the minority, of being an out student at school, even in the 90s that was out.
Dean Atta: 7:13
You know, no one else was known to be gay or bi when I was at school, you know there was obviously that guy. I'd asked out, but he wasn't out. Later discovered there were several other people, even in my own year, but they weren't out at the time, you know, and I was actually surprised when you know, I met them as adults and they were like, yeah, I'm gay now.
Dean Atta: 7:31
And I was like what where were you when I needed you? Like I needed friends, allies, you know, like um, yeah, so it was really interesting to realize they were there, but they were like not ready, and that's fine yeah, same here.
Emma Goswell: 7:44
I was convinced I was the only person in my entire school. And, yeah, they all creep out the closet, don't they eventually? But, um, yeah, but you always think you're the only person in the world, don't you? So it's a, it's a. It's a tough, lonely place to be for a while, isn't it, when you do think you're the only one?
Dean Atta: 7:58
but you know, people were kind to me. My mum was fine, you know. So when I came out to my mum, I was 15 I danced out this boy and then, you know, I had a bit of a, I don't know. There was a couple guys at school that weren't so nice, but they didn't do anything direct. So they did this really weird thing where in class they used to just really quietly under their breath go okay, okay, like whisper the word gay, and then when I'd try and look for where it'd come from, I kind of knew where it'd come from, but they'd carry on as if they hadn't said anything and the teacher hadn't heard it and no one else in the class, um, said anything. And so I I was getting upset about that because it wasn't like in your face, bullying, it was this really pernicious kind of yeah thing that was going on.
Dean Atta: 8:44
And so I was at home, I was washing the dishes after dinner and I was, yeah, crying into the sink. I didn't realize I was crying until my mom came in the room and said what's wrong? Then I realized I was crying and then I said oh, there's these boys at school, they're calling me gay. And she said well, you know it's not true, it's okay. And I said it is true, mommy, it is true. And I fell to the floor and I was sobbing and she sat down beside me and put my head in her lap and I kind of carried on crying and she just stroked me for a while like, and let me be. And when I calmed down she's like well, you know, and let me be. When I calmed down, she's like well, you know, you just got to be careful, you've got to use condoms because of HIV and I was just like I know about condoms, like I don't want to hear this.
Dean Atta: 9:33
It was just like the first thing after you know it's okay was that you've got to be safe. And that just wasn't what I wanted to hear at the time, because I wasn't even thinking about having sex. I just wanted to hold a guy's hand and kiss him, like that was all I was looking for at 15.
Emma Goswell: 9:51
It's very easy to judge, isn't it, and you feel the emotions you felt at the time. But I guess in retrospect you kind of forgive your mum and understand that you know her concern came from a place of love and she just you know, yeah, yeah didn't want the worst for you it was you know, if we think, cast our mind back to the 80s, we and 90s we had the tombstone adverts on tv.
Dean Atta: 10:11
You know, we had obviously section 28 and we had just rampant homophobia everywhere you looked, and even the stories of gay characters were often tragedies on tv. It wasn't perceived to be a happy life to be gay, even though the word gay means happy once upon a time.
Emma Goswell: 10:31
That's ironic isn't it Very?
Dean Atta: 10:32
ironic. So I understood where my mum was coming from and I put that coming out story in my memoir person unlimited because she said it should be there, because I I felt like, oh, maybe, maybe it's not showing her in the best light, but actually it was honest and it was. This was what happened and this was a reflection of our time and you know we shouldn't shy away from that. And it's important to see that moment between mother and son because you know we can wish it went a different way, but I think that's the way it went and our relationship is strong me and my mum and I feel like I'm glad she's happy I'm writing about our life. Do you know what I mean? Because when you write your own life story, you are including several other people, my mum being one, my partner being another. But you know my grandparents who are no longer with us, my mum's parents. You know my grandparents who are no longer with us, my mum's parents. You know I write quite a bit about them in there as well, and that was tough because you know they're not here to not defend themselves. But even you know for me to check with them that they're okay with it, but that decision I had to make because I can't tell just my story, because the my mother and the generation before my grandparents. That's what makes me. You know. That's kind of where I come from.
Dean Atta: 11:48
And the section of the book at the end of Personal Unlimited is called Roots, because that's about, you know, going back to my roots, going to Cyprus and Jamaica and thinking about, like how those countries make me who I am and how the connection between Britain and these kind of former crown colonies, as they were called in the 60s. You know how that has made me a British person living in London. You know who's mixed race and has this kind of connections to other countries and that's a part of me. And you know being black or brown or not white in the UK. You have to know about your heritage because people are going to ask you you heritage, because people are going to ask you, like you know, people are going to ask you where your family's from. So you kind of have to have some answers.
Emma Goswell: 12:30
It's more like, yeah, London, but having that heritage, do you feel that it's harder to come out as gay? You know, I have heard people say that before. You know it's one thing to come out as gay, but when you're gay and black or mixed- race, it is harder.
Dean Atta: 12:47
Did you find that? Yeah, I didn't come out as gay to everyone in my family, like my grandparents and who were in Cyprus, I didn't tell them I was gay and they died not knowing you know so, and then my family in Jamaica. There's still people I haven't directly told I'm gay. They might know, they might have googled me, but when I've been to Jamaica it doesn't come up in conversation and I'm gay. They might know, they might have Googled me, but when I've been to Jamaica it doesn't come up in conversation and I'm very. You're quite out now. Yes, no, but I'm very reserved when I'm there. People would refer to me as a shy guy when I'm in Jamaica because I seem like I'm not very outgoing, but I'm actually a bit terrified if I'm honest.
Emma Goswell: 13:25
Well, I was gonna say I mean, I've heard lots of different things about Jamaica, but I've never heard that it's great for LGBT people. Do you feel unsafe when you go there?
Dean Atta: 13:31
it's illegal to be gay there or to have gay sex there, and you know people are beaten up, murdered, imprisoned, you know, ostracized, it's no joke, you know it's. It's a really dangerous place to be, uh, lgbtq plus. And so I, when I visit, I'm not out, honestly, you know. So that's, that's that's where I'm at with it, you know, and everyone's on their own journey and some people have that same thing going on living in the uk. The communities that they're part of wouldn't accept them, so they do kind of compartmentalize their life and they might have friends and lovers who know their sexuality.
Dean Atta: 14:07
And then family and you know family, friends that don't know. You know, and I think that's valid, that's whatever makes you feel safe, whatever gets you through life you know like. So I kind of don't feel it's imperative on everyone to come out to everyone.
Emma Goswell: 14:23
That's very interesting and people do it in stages. Absolutely, you know people come out. Yeah, generally speaking, people come out to friends and then maybe family, and then grandparents are a bit of an afterthought. If they're still around, it's a lot longer, or sometimes never. You know, there's no, there's no right or wrong with coming out.
Dean Atta: 14:37
My Jamaican granny and all my Jamaican family that live in the UK know I'm gay and, and you know, ask after my partner, and so there's there's love there and there's support there. I mean that's here in the UK. But when I go back to Jamaica I just think again not worth the hassle, not of the drama, like if I was there for an extended period I'd probably want to connect with the LGBT community in Jamaica and I'd have to negotiate the safest way to do that.
Dean Atta: 15:02
You know there are organizations like j flag and, but like people I've heard of doing great campaigning work in jamaica for the lgbt community, I just haven't personally connected with it yet. I've still got time. Though I'm only 39, I I've still got a life of uh activism ahead of me. If that's the route I'm going down, I don't know. I just like to see myself as a writer, but because not enough of us have been given the opportunities to write these kind of queer stories and black queer stories. You know it's seen as activism by some, but for me it's just like it's almost life-saving, because I I want to feel like I was here, I want to see, you know that I, I existed, I made a difference and the way I can do that is by writing my story and that makes me feel like I have purpose. We have purpose on an interpersonal level, like being a good friend, son, uncle. But work, I think, is another way of giving our life purpose, and my work is writing.
Emma Goswell: 16:02
It was literally a kitchen sink drama, wasn't it, with your mother crying over the dishes. I know your dad isn't in the picture, but were there any other siblings or other members of your family that you had to come out to?
Dean Atta: 16:12
um, yeah, my mum basically said you need to come out to your sister. I have a younger sister who's eight years younger than me, so she said you need to come out to your sister, especially if you're gonna bring boyfriends home. She needs to understand what's going on. I was like does she? My mom said yes, and I was like, okay, um, so I, you know, sat her down and I said, oh, I'm gay. And she said I, I know. And I was like, excuse me, how she's like, oh, a friend at school you know that I'd met. She said his name, she said he's gay too, and I was like, really, like people are coming out in primary school, like what's going on? Like times are changing so rapidly. So, yeah, she was already like, yeah, I've got a gay friend. And I was just like, wow. So I kind of yeah, never had to worry about you know that after that, because my sister and that generation were clearly already more open-minded than mine.
Emma Goswell: 17:04
So how old was she? Eight years, so she was eight, yeah, exactly, yeah oh, my goodness. Well, this gives me a lot of hope for the future.
Emma Goswell: 17:12
To be honest for future generations, yeah oh, and you talk about your work. Now. You've mentioned your memoir a few times person unlimited, an ode to my black queer body, and that's really important to write about yourself. But why was it important for you, you know, in terms of your coming out process, why was it important for you to write ya novels and to write for young adults as well?
Dean Atta: 17:35
um, because I think you've got to approach things differently for different audiences. So when you're writing for young people, for for teenagers or children, you also have to get past the parents and the teachers, and so you kind of have to think about what those adults think is appropriate for the children to read Also, like find the right tone. And because I have young people in my life I've got nieces and I've also, you know, got friends with kids, but then I also do lots of work in schools I know how to pitch things to different age groups. So it was fun, it's a great challenge and also you get to connect with your younger self. I think my younger self I mean he didn't have all the pressures of you know, social media and the internet only came in in earnest when I was in my teens. But like the interpersonal stuff between kids is is still what it is, they're still in groups and out groups, they're still trying to fit in, they're still bullying, they're still trying to mimic your friends or be seen as cool. And you know I I can relate to all of that. I was a bit of a butterfly as a teenager in the sense that I go from group to group, so I kind of have a sense of like the different dynamics at school as well. So when I set things within a school context, I kind of understand which group I'm going to place my protagonist in.
Dean Atta: 18:54
But then also when I'm writing about family stuff, I try and be understanding of different families. You know, some people are in a single parent home, some people may be predominantly raised by a grandparent, some people may have been in the care system, and so I try and reflect the diversity of family and I try and think about also chosen family for the older characters, you know, for teenagers, and the idea that we have a birth family or a family we're raised by, but then we may go on to choose a family, especially as a queer person, and those are not our blood relatives but people that kind of step in to fill the roles that we need, you know, in our lives and we do the same for others. So for me I just wanted to show there's not one way to be, but also there's not one, only one, type of family. There's not only one type of coming out or not coming out, you know. So for me it's just about showing diversity to young people, whether it's about race or sexuality or gender as well.
Emma Goswell: 19:52
And, of course, you went to school during Section 28, where you know any even discussion about LGBT issues was banned by the government. So to see your books now in school libraries talking about LGBT issues must be really powerful and exciting for you, right, yeah?
Dean Atta: 20:10
that was stage one like school libraries. Like the stage we're on now is like school curriculum. Like the stage we're on now is like school curriculum. Like I've I've seen some year nine in school like where they're teaching the black flamingo to the whole of year nine over a course of 20 lessons and like I'm like how did you find space to put that in? And they're like, oh, we replaced of mice and men with the black flamingo, which was like wow, so that's going on too. So there's whole swathes of young people being taught my book, not just being given the opportunity to borrow it from the library.
Dean Atta: 20:43
So I just feel really honored and you don't realize what it can do. When you write a book, you kind of just do your best job, you know, and and and cross your fingers when it goes to print, you know. But actually teachers, librarians have really taken it on board, booksellers have really pushed it as well and I feel fellow authors have championed this book. So I just feel really lucky, you know. And it won the Stonewall Book Award in the US, which really helped US recognition, because as a British author it's not a guarantee that US market's going to take interest. But then it's also been banned in some states in the US and the book bannings that are happening there, which resembles section 28 in some ways to me, you know.
Dean Atta: 21:25
So the progress.
Emma Goswell: 21:26
I mean good publicity, but how depressing.
Dean Atta: 21:28
Yeah, I think things can be taken away from us as well, so we need to stay on it as as LGBT people, about all people gosh, and just thinking back to my school days and you probably think about your own as well just how powerful that is for young queer kids to be at school and see themselves represented, you know, not just in the library but on the curriculum as well, and absolutely beginning to understand what it means to be part of our community absolutely, and for me you know, when I go into schools and do events and and then afterwards have a little book signing for those that want to get the book what really moves me is when there's a trans child who wants me to write their chosen name in the book, and I'm the first adult they may be like asking to write down their chosen name and and it just feels so important and I've got trans and non-binary characters in all of my young adult books and it feels really great that I have the opportunity to kind of make them feel seen and represented.
Dean Atta: 22:26
Yeah, I feel I feel really fortunate to be doing this job and to be able to connect directly with with young readers as well as the adults that pass these books to them too yeah, because quite often I ask people about coming out at work.
Emma Goswell: 22:38
But you know you've always gone down the route of being out and proud and, you know, celebrating your queerness and your sexuality and your heritage through your work. Really that's been really important, hasn't it for you to be out and open throughout your whole career?
Dean Atta: 22:52
Absolutely, and I think you know it's great that we're seeing more out teachers as well. I think that was something that was never there for me. You know, there was teachers I thought perhaps were gay or lesbian at school, but it was never confirmed and it was rude to ask, you know.
Dean Atta: 23:07
So we just kind of didn't, didn't know if we had any LGBT teachers and legally they weren't allowed to talk about it and so now whether you know teachers are, you know talking about their, their partners and spouses when it's, you know, appropriate, and also a lot of teachers wearing these rainbow lanyards and rainbow laces or pin badges for pride just to show their allies as well. And I think that's as important, you know, for these LGBT kids to see that you know whether the teacher is LGBT or not, that they are, you know, an ally and expressing that through you know, some symbolism, you know, in there and what they wear in their work attire. So I just feel like, yeah, that's really important and it does make a difference to young people as well. And you know there's been organizations set up, you know, in the past to to kind of help teachers get to that stage, like schools out.
Dean Atta: 23:57
And then you know lgbt history month, which I'm a patron of, you know doing so much to give the resources and the support to teachers and educators to provide the right messaging. And you know, give, give them the kind of like, yeah, instant resources available so that they can get it past. You know, anyone that wants to like prohibit them or make it a challenge, it's like, well, no, here it is. Here is a pre-approved lesson plan. Here is the posters. Here are the all the resources. So I love schools out for that. And and yeah, lgbt history month, because even though we do this stuff all year round, I think having a focus of February for LGBT history gives everyone a reason to kind of say we're going to do the display, we're going to do the assembly, we're going to make it happen now and hopefully it lasts the rest of the year.
Emma Goswell: 24:45
And as we're talking about young people but this question doesn't have to be directed to young people particularly but I always like to end by asking people you know if they had any advice for people that were listening that maybe haven't come out yet, and that could be older people as well, to be honest. But if you had any advice, you know someone that came out when you were 15, a few years ago, and you're now living your best happy, gay, out and proud life. What advice would you give to people not quite taking this first step yet?
Dean Atta: 25:10
the first step is is coming out to yourself. So it's for you to decide who you are, what you are, how you want to identify. And, yeah, don't let it be put upon you by anyone else's assumptions. Yeah, just figure it out for yourself.
Dean Atta: 25:24
For me, poetry, writing things down, journaling that really helped me come to terms and understand myself. But then, you know, things do also change over time. So it may not be what you come out as is what you stay as. So don't don't be too um, you know, don't get too wrapped up in the labels, you know, because we're all fluid in various ways. So you know, just, it's a journey and try and enjoy it. I know it's tough, but find your tribe, you know and know that that tribe may change and also you know this is a long answer present its own challenges, because, you know, even within the community we have like fleets and in groups and out groups. So, you know, I think having a range of friends and people around you who are queer and not queer, who are, you know, identify the same way as you and differently, will keep you more rounded and balanced as well. So, yeah, just keep an open mind even to how you are going to identify so you mentioned your autobiography earlier, what your memoir person unlimited.
Emma Goswell: 26:31
Tell us a little bit about what readers can expect and what the process was like to write it as well, I guess.
Dean Atta: 26:38
So Person Unlimited a note to my black queer body is a book about me and my body, but, I think, in a really accessible way, talking about the relationship one has to their body. So I move through seven body parts, starting with the hair, moving down to eyes, voice, heart and so on, and tell really heartfelt personal stories, but with a sense of you know these are stories that many of us have, you know, gone through experience. So I talk about, you know, how I feel, I'm seen, perceived and see other people in the world. I talk about my coming out but also, you know, my love for family friends through the heart section. I think the starting section, I guess, gives a clear illustration of like the tone of the book. It starts with my hair, so that's the crown section and that talks about different hairstyles I've had, such as Afro, dreadlockslocks, cane rose and yeah, kind of how your hair shapes a lot of your identity, especially if you're a black person, and how the kind of people put different identifiers upon you. So when I had the dreadlocks, how I was kind of perceived to be a rustafarian and assumed to be a weed smoker and all those kind of things. And how you have an afro and it's kind of unruly and maybe not seen as tidy and like kind of what societal pressures put upon you, but like.
Dean Atta: 28:00
An interesting section for me was a section I wrote about my hands, and my left hand in particular, and my relationship to my grandfather, who grew up in Cyprus and he was left handed originally but in school they tied his left hand behind his back, you know, and they, you know, they didn't want people to write with their left hands. It was seen as backwards. It was seen, as you know, just not the right thing to do, and so whenever I would write with my left hand in front of him, he'd say you're lucky. I think he was saying more than that I could be left-handed. It was that I, I was living a more free life than he had.
Dean Atta: 28:35
Yeah, that connection to family is there through these kind of like bodily stories, so to speak. So that's kind of a little flavor of it. So it talks about family, it talks about belonging. I talk about my mixed heritage being Greek, cypriot and Jamaican and growing up in London. Um, talk about being gay, coming out, mental health, but also kind of a journey to self-love through things like, you know, yoga, meditation, a good relationship with my partner, who I've been with for six years now, and, yeah, it's got a feel-good vibe even through the highs and lows that it goes through the wonderful Dean Atta.
Emma Goswell: 29:17
I just love his laugh and I also genuinely really love his book, person unlimited. I don't know we mentioned it in the interview, but he started life as a poet and I think that really comes across in that book. It truly is beautifully crafted. So, yes, get it now at all good bookstores. Person unlimited it's, it's called, it's out now.
Emma Goswell: 29:38
And I always say this do support your independent and, if possible, queer bookstore. And while you're there, why not pick up a copy of Coming Out Stories 2? But yeah, dean's book really does make me want to get back to my yoga. These things slip by, don't they, when you've got a two-year-old in your life. But yes, I need to get back to it for my mental and physical health. And you know what you wait around for a YA author, for yonks, and then two come along at once. I say this because next episode you will hear from the multi-award-winning author Simon James Green, and, like Dean, he writes stories for kids or young adults and he also spends a lot of time going into schools to talk about his writing, something that has meant that in the past, not only have schools tried to ban him and his books, but, unbelievably, he's even received death threats.
Simon: 30:33
You know people saying I deserve to die and burn in hell and that sort of thing. People saying you know that it was indoctrination, that I was going into these schools to try and convince young boys to be gay and this idea that you know I'm so charismatic people will just be inspired to be queer if they hear me talk, which you know.