Emma Goswell: 0:05
Hi and thank you so much for choosing Coming Out Stories. We're brought to you by what Goes On Media and I'm your host, emma Galswell. We'd love it if you subscribe so you never miss an episode. Hey, and don't forget to follow us on all the socials as well. We are at Come Out Stories on ex previously Twitter and we're coming out stories pod on Instagram. It's hard to believe, but this is our last episode of 2023 and you're about to hear from a real pioneer, a woman who came out back in the 1970s and then, through all of her campaigning and hard work, paved the way for so many other women, and especially other lesbian mothers, to live their lives the way they wanted. It's time to meet.
Ann: 0:50
Anne, I always had a friend. I was fell in love with the six formers because they were all big, strong women and I was like this little 11 year old, but not to do anything about it or even identify. Once I got to 15, 16, I was going out with lads.
Emma Goswell: 1:09
So you knew from a very young age. Well, you mentioned being 11 there and really knowing that you were attracted to women.
Ann: 1:14
Well, no, because it was a crush and you were allowed to have crushes when you went to an all girl school. You know what I mean. You were allowed to have crushes on people. It wasn't a bad thing to do to have a crush on an older girl, and where in the world and what sort of decade are we talking?
Emma Goswell: 1:36
when you were at school?
Ann: 1:37
In the 60s Well, no, the late 50s, early 60s. At school I was in Liverpool. I was born and brought up in Liverpool, but of course there wasn't any out person anywhere that you could say, oh gosh, she's like that.
Emma Goswell: 1:59
Well, that's it. Did anyone know any gay people in the 50s or 60s?
Ann: 2:03
I don't think so Well if they did, it was that puff down the road, do you know? I mean, that's how it might be described, or that puff on the bus or something. It would be like that it wouldn't be any meaningful discussion about anything.
Emma Goswell: 2:22
Oh no, so you knew that gay people existed, but they were always referred to in quite a derogatory way.
Ann: 2:26
Yeah, and usually men. They would be talking about men usually. So, no, there was nothing for women, really, apart from the fact that there were some strong women around.
Emma Goswell: 2:41
Did you even know the word lesbian when you were growing?
Ann: 2:43
up. I don't think I did know. I don't remember knowing about it. The first time I ever knew anybody who actually said they were a lesbian was when I went to work in London.
Emma Goswell: 2:57
Do you have to go to that London to make lesbians?
Ann: 2:59
When I was like 60s, 17, I left Liverpool and went to work in London in a big department store on Oxford Road called Bournemouth Hollingsworth, and they had accommodation on Gower Street, which is behind Tottenham.
Emma Goswell: 3:16
Court Road, and this was in the swinging 60s in London.
Ann: 3:20
It was so before that I had thought about being a nun. Why. Just because I was brought up by nuns I think a lot of people do I went through that phase where I was very holy and went to church a lot and you know sort of was in the Legion of Mary and things like that.
Emma Goswell: 3:43
And then you went to swinging 60s London and met lesbians.
Ann: 3:46
And then I went to London and found sex, drugs and rock and roll.
Emma Goswell: 3:52
Amen to that.
Ann: 3:54
So I hit that on the head. But yeah, so that was the first time I'd ever met anybody who said they may not even have said I'm a lesbian, they might have just said I'm gay.
Emma Goswell: 4:05
And did the penny click for you. Do you think that's what I am?
Ann: 4:08
No, no, not really, because I lived in Soho. Do you know what I mean? That's where it is. The part of Oxford Street is really Soho. So you were in Gay Central Well, it was hippie central, or alternative central, you might call it rather, because there were all sorts of people there, not just gay people, but were there?
Emma Goswell: 4:34
gay bars in Soho in the 60s then?
Ann: 4:36
No, of course, we couldn't drink till we were 21. And we didn't even know that, really, you couldn't go in a pub till you were 21. All the places that I went to, none of them sold alcohol.
Emma Goswell: 4:50
Well, they're swinging 60s. Don't sound that swinging to me.
Ann: 4:52
No, well, he was like. This is the whole thing about it, you see, of course there was the other part of it, the sex, drug and rock and roll. You know what I mean. But no, there were coffee bars. There was a coffee bar in Old Compton Street called the Two Eyes, which was where Cliff Richard had been discovered and Tommy Steele sort of years before, you know, the late 50s. And then there was another one called the Macabre, where the tables were coffee shaped and it was all dark and you know. And then there was the Two Eyes, and, yes, I did drink, but I had to pretend I was 21. So I had to try and remember what my birthday was supposed to be. That was when I went out with another friend who was older, slightly older, and so she'd put my hair up in a French roll, you know, so to make me look older, brilliant.
Emma Goswell: 5:52
And all this time were you sort of not fully aware of your sexuality because you said I assume you were then dating guys. Were you dating men?
Ann: 6:00
Well, not really you can call it dating. Really it was like you know different ones all the time we went round in groups.
Emma Goswell: 6:10
But you had boyfriends. You didn't have girlfriends.
Ann: 6:12
No, I didn't know, I didn't have girlfriends, no, but I mean I did have close relationships with a few girls. Then I went from the swing in London and the sex, drugs and rock and roll into the army, so it was like the opposite. Yeah, so a different culture. And the funny thing is, although that's where I met my husband, my ex-husband, I have his friends with all the lesbians.
Emma Goswell: 6:40
I was going to say there must have been quite a few lesbians in the army.
Ann: 6:43
But of course there were also quite a few who got turfed out as well Because of course it would have been. Where before they?
Emma Goswell: 6:51
allowed guys and then you came, literally Totally.
Ann: 6:55
So there was a couple of times where, well, once in Guildford, which is where you go for your sort of basic training, we got up one morning and two girls were on their way home, and then again, a cat trick.
Emma Goswell: 7:08
Because they'd been caught having a relationship. Yeah, and did you ever speak to them about it? Did you ever get a chance to?
Ann: 7:13
Well, yeah, yeah, because, well, I'd like to say I was friends with a lot of them and every time they had an argument, I'd be talking to them, you know, and say she said this and she said that.
Emma Goswell: 7:24
But they must have been devastated. They lost their careers overall.
Ann: 7:28
But again, that's how it was. That was the way it was at the time. So I ended up pregnant and getting married. So that was that.
Emma Goswell: 7:39
You obviously knew other lesbians and knew that you were attracted to women, but did you just feel the societal pressure to go?
Ann: 7:44
No, I'm not sure why. Yeah, possibly unconsciously pressurised, because I got married in the January in 1966 and had my eldest daughter in May of that year and so that was not long enough to have been married to have a baby, as it were. But the attitudes were just changing Because when I went into hospital to have Tracy there were three women there who weren't married but were having babies.
Emma Goswell: 8:23
Yeah, because it was a big thing, wasn't?
Ann: 8:24
it.
Emma Goswell: 8:24
You know, up until the 60s.
Ann: 8:26
So attitudes then were just changing. They were getting more mellow about things, but not still not to the extent of people walking around saying I'm gay. I mean, we had a gay lad live next door to us when I was still living at home and yeah, with Tony next door to us was gay.
Emma Goswell: 8:49
How did everyone in the 60s react to Tony?
Ann: 8:54
Like Puffer lives in Speak or the house where we lived. There was also a gay lad at school as well.
Emma Goswell: 9:00
And did he get bullied?
Ann: 9:02
I've no idea he was theatrical, so possibly not because he was always in all the plays and things that they did. Sometimes that's a way of people not getting bullied Upstaying popular.
Emma Goswell: 9:19
So you went down the straight route, really. You got married and you had a family. How many kids, well, I've had three.
Ann: 9:25
One my son died at six weeks, so but I've got two daughters, tracy and Rachel. But I think, like I said, the attitudes were slightly changing when I had Tracy. And if I'd known before I had Tracy the attitudes were going to change I probably wouldn't have got married. We were already arguing and things you know. So I think we would have ended up splitting up and I wouldn't have got married. So but I did, and I ended up being married for six years and then it fell apart and I left and came back. In the meantime, my mum and dad had moved to Manchester from Liverpool because of my dad's work, and so I came back to Manchester With the two kids. Yeah, with the two kids.
Emma Goswell: 10:18
And at this time were you thinking well, I'm actually gay, why don't I look for a woman, or what not?
Ann: 10:23
No, I was thinking, just, you know, I'm never going to get married again. Yeah, fair enough, and I was too busy with the kids, I wasn't interested, I didn't date or anything. I wasn't interested in men. There was a woman that I really, really liked and, you know, we became friends, but that's as far as it went. I was doing various things. I went to an adult education centre and did some couple of GCs and then I went to Widdenshaw College as a mature student and there were a few other slightly older people and one of our sociology teachers was a gay man who was openly gave and he was, he was sort of quite camp or he looked, that's how he came across. I've got the way he came rushing in, you know, and and there was like, but obviously I say he was also, he was one of our sociology teachers and there was a few of us, a couple of older people, who just just clicked with him. Really it was really nice and he came to my house for a meal. You know, I invited him for a meal and and we got talking and I just came out to him. I you just it was the first time I'd ever told anybody that put it that way that you know I'd had these feelings, and one thing and another and you hadn't actually done nothing about it.
Emma Goswell: 11:57
You hadn't kissed a woman at this stage, you had just got feelings yeah and the first person you came out to was your tutor. That's quite new, sure?
Ann: 12:04
that's great because, like I say, he was really nice but unfortunately he he died of mesothelioma his name is John Shires anyway and he was, like I say, my sociology tutor but came became a really good friend.
Emma Goswell: 12:20
I guess it's a good bet, isn't it, to come out to someone else who was gay, because you know you're gonna get a good response yeah, well, yeah, they understand, and I also, I could sort of apply the same back to him that I, I could understand him, you know.
Ann: 12:36
So what did he say? So he's well, basically you need to get involved with things and I'll sort it out. So I mean, he wouldn't, he wouldn't rest. Then you know, I mean there's, there was no going back into the shell or what did?
Emma Goswell: 12:53
what did he mean by? You need to get involved with them?
Ann: 12:56
you know, there was no gay center or no center in in, in essence, for gay people at that time. There were two officers. There was an office for switch, gay switchboard which was to tell people about pubs and clubs and things and any things that were going on, and then there was friend, which was a counseling service for gay people, and they had an office each in this building.
Emma Goswell: 13:27
That was it so what year was this and how old were you when you came out then?
Ann: 13:32
76, 77, so I would have been mid mid 20s, late 20s but so there weren't any gay bars in Manchester oh yes, there were. There were bars, that's what I say. So the gay switchboard was the place that gay people could ring up and they would be told about Napoleon's, which obviously was, was a gay bar, and then other other gay places different. I mean, a lot of them have changed now, of course when it certainly wasn't.
Emma Goswell: 14:03
The bustling Canal Street is today, is it or even was by the 90s?
Ann: 14:07
there was two or three. There was that, there was the Union, which was full of what were known as drag queens, and there was the Rembrandt I think the Rembrandt was there. Then there was Napoleon's, there was the Thompson's Arms, so there were, and then, as I got involved, I found out there was a disco on a Friday night at Manchester Poly. So if, if you rang up, friend, and said, you know, I think I'm a lesbian, someone would arrange to meet you somewhere, if you wanted, of course, and to tell you about, like, well, there's, there's a women's meeting, you know, on the third Friday of every month or something. That that was it, that sort of thing. So he was trying to get you involved politically, rather than just let's go out to gay bars to get but the other thing was with some of the gay bars you couldn't go in unless you were accompanied by a man, because they were male, they were mainly male bars, so the women just a woman just couldn't turn up on their own and go in.
Emma Goswell: 15:15
So I was it all secret hand-circuits and secret knocks on doors.
Ann: 15:19
Yeah for women. There was a place in Ashton, so. So sometimes three or four women would get in a car and go up to Ashton and you know, possibly after the the Poly disco on Friday. But but like say there was nothing, I mean people. Now there is just all sorts of things aren't there for?
Emma Goswell: 15:43
them. Well, I remember, even in the 90s, going out to gay clubs. That was always mainly men and there weren't that many lesbian scenes of clubs, but it must have been even more pronounced then. So were there many lesbians that you could sort of meet. So have potential relationships within the 70s?
Ann: 15:59
well, no because, well, apart from, like the, the women's group that would meet, you know, sort of every so often, and and like I say, these, the two offices were in a building on it called Waterloo Place. It's near the University, so there were different, various different enterprises in there and the two offices were right at the top, but in the basement was an alternative record shop, and then they moved, they gave up and moved somewhere, so and we took over the basement, which was the first time we'd actually had a place.
Emma Goswell: 16:40
When you say we, what organisation was it?
Ann: 16:42
Well, it was just the gay centre, I mean, it wasn't any organisation as such. Then there was a gay switchboard which was staffed by men six days a week and Tuesday night was women's night and then friend. So that was the counselling. But when we got this funding and we'd turned the basement into some sort of place that you could actually use, so we still had gay switchboard there and we still had friend. But we also sort of branched off and had another phone line called Lesbian Link. But because we had this room it meant we could say to women come down on Tuesday night or whatever you know, and meet other women. So it started from there really.
Emma Goswell: 17:29
You basically helped start a lesbian centre. Yeah, yeah, that must have been a good way to meet women as well. Yeah, well it was.
Ann: 17:37
That's where I met somebody, and we became, you know, a partnership, but the thing about it was, though, that we helped so many women. We were able to point them in the direction of discos and things that they could go to, and also give them support, Like one time there were two married women who were friends and then had fallen for each other. So they both were married, both had kids, they were in a bit of a state. A bit of a state, to say the least. Yeah, we had, you know, a room where we could have women's meetings. We started a lesbian mothers group, did you? Yeah, we used to have the Christmas party every year for them and for the kids. And because there were all sorts of reasons why women couldn't come out, they certainly couldn't come out if they had kids because you know, they were in danger of having the kids taken off them, or they may have been religious, all different sorts of reasons. Their jobs they were teachers, possibly, or nurses.
Emma Goswell: 18:48
Did you feel the threat that you might have your kids taken off you then?
Ann: 18:52
Well, yeah, obviously, but I also just felt it was right from the minute I came out almost I came out, If you see what I mean.
Emma Goswell: 19:03
You never went back in. You were out to everybody we used to have badges.
Ann: 19:06
You know, let's face it. You know we used to wear badges and I used to have one which said yes, I'm homosexual too. Because that was the thing that you had to explain to people that the homosexual didn't only apply to men, because it wasn't from the Latin word, it was from the Greek word meaning the same rather than male. You know. So I don't know how many times I went through that. Women need men, like fish need bikes. You know just all those. But a friend of mine that I had, we'd been really close and I'd looked after her children. She'd gone back into nursing. She had three children under four, so I used to go across to her house a lot and sometimes I babysat and looked after them while she got a nap because she'd been on night and got to know her really well and her husband. And then they moved. They moved house not far, just around the corner, but I was helping them move in and I'd come straight from college and I had my coat on and I had the badge on and that was the first time Lindsay had seen it and he'd seen it while I was carrying a wardrobe up the stairs with him. So I went home to get the kids the tea and that and went to see her the next day and wasn't allowed in what she was told she couldn't be friends with me anymore by her husband, hmm, and she didn't want to be friends with you anymore. No, well, that's the thing that was. The bitterest thing really was the fact that she wouldn't stand up to him and she was a strong woman, or she appeared to be a strong woman, you know. But yeah, so that hurt a lot. So I was out. You know, right from the start, really, I told my family, I told my sister first oh, how did that go? She was fine. She was the youngest one, she was the youngest of the family and she came to babysit for me while I went to a women's group.
Emma Goswell: 21:26
Hmm.
Ann: 21:27
I mean, my two brothers were a bit, they weren't nasty or anything but like taking the, you know, taking the piss out of me, but not in a nasty way, just but just, you know. So my family were fine, their family were?
Emma Goswell: 21:42
Did you sit down and chat to your parents about it?
Ann: 21:44
Hmm.
Emma Goswell: 21:45
How did that go?
Ann: 21:46
Well, they just accepted it. If they didn't accept it, they didn't say anything. Did you know?
Emma Goswell: 21:53
And that's quite a big deal. In the 70s, you know, there were that many out there.
Ann: 21:56
Going to like I'd take the kids to my mum and dad lived in Burnidge and I'd take them on a Friday night, you know, take, we'd go to stay for the weekend, but then I'd go off and go to the disco at the poly, you know, and my mum would put the kids to bed and that. So they were only supportive. I can't say anything else really about them. They were. So I had a slightly different outcome than a lot of women did. Do you know what I'm saying? Well, I'm sure a lot of women got rejected by their families didn't they yes? lots. I mean some were thrown out, Some were, you know, never spoken to again.
Emma Goswell: 22:43
And I guess in those days, in the 70s and 80s, it would have been a lot more common for women to have gone down that route, to have gone down the getting married, having kids and then coming out later. So I guess there was quite a lot of women in that situation who had kids.
Ann: 22:56
And some of the stories were horrendous. They were really horrendous.
Emma Goswell: 23:00
Loads of women were having their kids taken off them and being told they were unfit mothers because they were lesbians.
Ann: 23:06
Yeah, that's why I felt I needed to be out there. But at times I did feel like the only lesbian mother in the north of England, you know. Because anybody wanted anything, they'd say, oh and, algar, I'll do it. So I did have his on all sorts of different television programs. Do you remember Lord Wyn Stanley? You probably won't remember him. He had this thing. He had a program on Grenada and I was on with him twice and we did a thing with Hazel O'Connor Did you On Grenada as well which was like really weird.
Emma Goswell: 23:45
He said oh, it's so. You were like the most out and proud lesbian in the Northwest, probably in the 60s, 70s and 80s.
Ann: 23:52
Yeah, like I say, I'd been on the phone, you know, on the phone line for like well, since it began and ran the women's groups, and then just really in the mid 80s I ran out of steam so that.
Emma Goswell: 24:11
Only so long you can keep going for, I guess, in terms of being politically active like that.
Ann: 24:16
I mean we did lots of things. We started the Equal Opportunities Unit in the town hall Because there hadn't been anything. So I was involved in the Labour Party Working Party for lesbians and gays or whatever you know Equal Opportunities but if I was on the interviewing panel? So we appointed the first lesbian worker, the first disabled person's worker, the first gay men's worker.
Emma Goswell: 24:50
The proud stuff that you've been involved in, then yeah, it was.
Ann: 24:54
And you know it was fun. We picketed everywhere. We picketed, yeah, we picketed the Daily Express building and ancoats. Why we stormed it? Because they wouldn't report on, you know, gay things, or they reported negatively on gay things and W H Smith wouldn't sell gay news. Do you know we picketed them. Well, we'd go and buy the gay news or take the gay news in with the shopping and put gay news in the basket. And then you know and then say, oh, you know, we picketed the Manchester show in Platt Fields. Why? Because they wouldn't let us have a stall. So, yeah, so we picketed that. So it was fun. We picketed James Andrew, Remember, you won't know, James Andrew tonight.
Emma Goswell: 25:45
I've heard of him, the police chief who said that gay men were swirling in the cesspit of their own making. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Ann: 25:51
Gosh and a policeman hiding in toilets. You know, it was ridiculous, it really was ridiculous.
Emma Goswell: 25:58
There was a lot to protest against, wasn't there? There were no.
Ann: 26:00
There were no rights they had a big meeting in the free trade hall, and so the whole crowd of us managed to get in and we put a banner over the balcony, like the women's suffrage movement had done back in the day, you know. So we put this banner and we need to say we got ejected out of there.
Emma Goswell: 26:23
Did you ever get arrested?
Ann: 26:24
No, no, no, but yeah, I mean it was fun as well. Did you know what I'm saying? It wasn't like all yeah, we've got to give it. I don't know if it was serious stuff that you were doing. It was, yeah, but it was fun as well, and gradually things you know, things changed, obviously.
Emma Goswell: 26:43
Yeah, so, and you went on to meet your life partner.
Ann: 26:46
Yes, that was in 87, I think it was 87. She was working in the Laundry at Withington Hospital. They took on an evening shift at the Laundry and the person I was with at the time we needed some extra money. I was at the poly doing me degree and so I went to work at the Laundry, loved it.
Emma Goswell: 27:15
Absolutely loved it Wow.
Ann: 27:18
Well, and you fell in love and then met Joyce. Yeah, so unfortunately for the other relationship it you know it wasn't a good thing.
Emma Goswell: 27:28
And how long have you been with Joyce now then?
Ann: 27:31
36 years, wow, 36 years.
Emma Goswell: 27:34
And are you?
Ann: 27:34
married no.
Emma Goswell: 27:36
No, you haven't gone down that route. No.
Ann: 27:38
No, we're quite happy as we are as partners. We've got, you know, our families. Well, joyce's family weren't cooperative or whatever for the first 20 years, but oh, just the first 20?
Emma Goswell: 27:54
Right blimey. So what did they not speak to her?
Ann: 27:57
Yeah, oh yeah, they spoke to her, but we never got invited to anything. And my family were totally different. You know, they totally accepted Joyce. And there was one particular day we were at my mum and dad's and Joyce was saying something to my dad and he said, oh. We said I don't know, you'll have to ask your mother, meaning my mother. Oh, do you know what I mean? And I just thought, yes, that's, you know, that's, that's how it is. They just totally accepted her right from the very beginning.
Emma Goswell: 28:28
And now you two are head of a ginormous family. So just list how many kids and grandkids and great-grandkids and great-grandkids Well, we've got.
Ann: 28:37
Yeah, we've got five children between us, and we've got 13 grandchildren, 22, nearly 23 great-grandchildren and one great-great-grandson. So so our eldest great-grandson is the father of our great great-grandson.
Emma Goswell: 28:59
It's just remarkable, such a big family. Any by the more Christmas presents, yeah.
Ann: 29:04
So, but it's, yeah, it's, and they're all. They're all. I mean our eldest daughter, joyce's daughter. So Joyce has got a daughter and two sons. I've got two daughters. Right from the very beginning she was, oh, this is me, two moms, and she'd be in the bingo, and you know when we get talking and that, and she'd say, oh yeah, I mean, mom's a lesbians, do they? Did they just like right from the very beginning.
Emma Goswell: 29:37
So yeah, and they all completely accepted, aren't they? They all love you, yeah.
Ann: 29:42
Yeah, so that's great. To Joyce's side she's Nana and I'm Nana Anne. Right To my side I'm Nanny and she's Nanny Joyce Right, and then with the grandkids as well. So to my side I'm Grandma and she's Grandma Joyce. Well, I haven't got very many, because they're nearly all on Joyce's side and to them she's Grandma and I'm Grandma Anne. So you know, it just works out.
Emma Goswell: 30:13
But it's so great to me because you've got the equivalent of like more than two football teams of young people growing up in Manchester. You've got lesbian grandkids yes, who just that is normal to them.
Ann: 30:24
And I'm mostly in the 30s now the grandkids, so our youngest grandson's 21. So they're not bothered about talking about it either to other people. So it does spread out from tiny seeds, you know, huge oak trees, growth sort of thing.
Emma Goswell: 30:47
So you never regret being out from the get-go.
Ann: 30:49
No, no, no.
Emma Goswell: 30:51
And did you ever come out to your ex-husband, or did you not really speak anymore?
Ann: 30:55
I did come out to him years and years and years ago. I mean, I'm not even sure whether he's alive now, but what was it he said? He said something like well, I always was the bastard to you or something. And I said it's got nothing to do with you at all. You know, like it was like because of him I'd become a lesbian, do you know? And I said it's got nothing to do with you at all, I always was.
Emma Goswell: 31:29
I just didn't know it, it's full of its own self-importance, then, yeah, so, but no regrets in terms of getting involved and getting married, because you've got your family, you've got your kids, oh yes yeah, oh, gosh, yeah.
Ann: 31:44
But like I say, I just wish I'd known beforehand that attitudes were slightly changing and that could be a single mum, but I didn't know.
Emma Goswell: 31:54
Can you believe how much things have changed since the 60s when you went to London and you know we can have the chance to get married now if it wants you know?
Ann: 32:03
Oh yeah, I mean I'm all for it, for those that want it. Definitely.
Emma Goswell: 32:06
I mean we have got another gay couple in the family, male couple, so Well, you know so that many people in your family you know they're female guys and you never know, some of the great great grandchildren could turn out to be gay as well, and then they've got an amazing role model, haven't?
Ann: 32:24
they to talk to.
Emma Goswell: 32:25
Yeah, definitely Say. One of your great grandchildren or great great grandchildren did come out to you. What were your advice to them?
Ann: 32:33
Just be yourself and you know, work through it. You can't not be yourself because it causes so much hassle. I mean, we had friends, these two women, and they were together. The one family had sort of ostracised her because of what she was, and the other one worked with the courts in capacity with young people, and so they kept their relationship secret for well. In fact, one of them has died and the other one, basically, has just come out.
Emma Goswell: 33:17
Wow. So they kept their sexuality secret for how many years? Then Decades?
Ann: 33:22
Yeah, decades. Yeah Well, all the time the one was working with the courts.
Emma Goswell: 33:27
And how did that affect them, do you think?
Ann: 33:29
I think. Well, I don't think it affected them too badly in one sense, but one of them ended up being very closeted, a home sort of thing, and only came to life, as it were, you know when the groups were meeting and that. And no, they had a wonderful relationship, like I said, I think the 47 years they were together 47 years together and not out.
Emma Goswell: 33:56
I think that's hard work.
Ann: 33:59
And yet they were out within the group, they were leaders, they were strong women strong leaders.
Emma Goswell: 34:08
So how much happier do you think you are since you've come out.
Ann: 34:13
Gosh, tons, tons happier. Yeah, because you just are yourself and if people don't like it they can lump it. They don't like you, then you know that's their problem, not your problem. Yeah, I feel good because I feel like I helped a lot of women as well, just being on the end of the phone for some women and meeting other women, you know, bringing them into the group and you know then they'd meet someone and they might pair off and so yeah, I feel like I've helped a lot of women.
Emma Goswell: 34:49
You're the lesbian Pied Piper of Manchester, incredible Ann Algar there, and as a fellow lesbian mum, I do feel like I owe a big thank you to Ann for coming out back in the day and for getting involved politically and making things easier for other lesbians. I know it can't have been easy. Oh, and do spare a thought for all of those Christmas presents she would have had to wrap and buy Five kids, 13 grandchildren and 23 great-grandchildren, not to mention the great-great-grandson. A quick calculation tells me that is 42 presents. Wow, she better start saving for next year. Talking of which, if you're listening just after this is released, 2023 is nearly done and dusted. So listen, I wish you and your family, blood or chosen family a very happy and healthy new year. We will be back, of course, in 2024, so don't go anywhere and do subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. Next time you'll meet Gary, who knew when he was a child that he was gay but suppressed his sexuality for four decades, and get this through three marriages with women.
Gary: 36:06
I bought my wife a year's supply of Playgirl magazine. I thought it would be really funny for Christmas and I remember spending a little bit more time than I should flicking through those pages, and that was in my 30s.