Comeback Stories is a production. I've Inflection Network and iHeartRadio.
What's up, everybody. I'm Darren Waller. I'm tight End for the New York Giants. I'm also a husband, a brother, a son, an artist. Welcome back to Comeback Stories.
And I'm Donnie Starkins, yoga, meditation teacher, personal development coach. And it's good to be back on the platform for Comeback Stories.
We've got a special guest today, a man who's had a comeback story, but we'll let him tell you that he's been here for years. We've got Michael Smith. Michael, welcome to the show man.
It's good to be with you, fellows. It's really good to be with y'all. Thank y'all for having me. I appreciate it. A big fan of what y'all are doing. But Darren, can I start with a question, just curious have you gotten used to saying tight End for the New York Giants yet or is it still something you got to remind yourself as.
Sir, I'm still working out the kinks on it.
Man.
It's still like, wow, this is really true. And then it's like still putting on like blue shirts and in blue workout gear. I'm like, this is taking a little bit of time. It's cool, but yeah, still got to get best to it a little bit before we get into your story. I know that you're somebody that has lived some of your career on big stages, in front of people, in front of all of America, and in
certain points of your career. Could you speak to some of that pressure, because I know that I can relate, and I can talk about all the fans and the game and all the pressure that that brings for me to succeed and make money all those things. But what is it like from your perspective?
That's a great question, you know.
I would say if I could relate it to what you do is reps, you know, and the more reps you do, the more comfortable you get, the more you stop thinking, the more it slows down.
I remember the first time I did television. I was in Boston, and.
Because I didn't go to school for television line you, I don't up to school to be a front journalist. Matter of fact, I look down my nose at television people because I was like, oh, you are real journalists, you know, you just you your make up and your cameras and you know, you know, you ain't telling the real stories of real real journalism is written word. I was one of those guys, even as a young kid. And so I was at the Boston Globe and I would have been, you know, about twenty two years old
something like that, maybe even younger. And I went on a local television show and I remember you shaking, you know, like I mean, just like bouncing my leg, and I just was so nervous. I don't even remember if I can get a sentence out cleanly and you know, fast forward.
And thankfully people didn't give up on me.
And after doing thousands of hours of it, it just became second nature. And the best advice I got along the way was just to get better at being myself. And so I stopped magnifying mistakes. I stopped worrying about, honestly, what people thought. I never think about the people on the other side of that red light. So I imagine you might block out the people in the stands and just you know, focus on the person in front of you. I focus on a person next to me. I focus
on the story I want to tell. I focus on the point I want to make. And it went from a nervous energy to an exciting energy, and I get a rush when that red light comes on. So I don't think of it as pressure as much as it is a privilege. And it became fun over the years just to connect with people, even if I couldn't see them or I didn't know them, I'm connecting with people through that camera lens and on the other side of that red light.
It's beautiful. Man.
Well, you started your career as a sports writer, right and then fifteen years with ESPN in a variety of roles reporter, host, commentator, anchor on Sports Center. But now you kind of are wearing multiple aps across the industry of peacock shows with my main man Michael Smith and brother from another with NFL Insider on Amazon on the Thursday Night show. And you're a media entrepreneur. You're the reason why we're here sitting together as the leader of
this company. So but most importantly your a husband, Sarah and a father of three. So I wanted to give you a little bit of a proper per intro. But for that being yeah, with that being said, maybe you can take us back. Darren and I always dive deep and we go right into the story, and we would just like to know some context and maybe tell us what it was like growing up for you.
Sure, I grew up in New Orleans. I'm the oldest of two. You know.
My mom and my dad raised me until they got divorced about when I was about ten, and my stepdad came into our lives and loved us like we were his own. I am the grandson of a Baptist pastor, so I'm a preacher's grandkid. Served on an usher board. So one of the reasons I'm long when it is I got it. It runs in my family.
You know. Other people say I'm a bit of a preacher on television. I got it. I got it honestly, if you will.
Grew up in New Orleans and grew up around a lot of love, man, you know, and when I was growing up in New Orleans was a rough place, you know, probably at the highest murder rate per capital in the United States at the time. But I was I was shielded from a lot of that. To be hose with you, you know, I was aware of it. But you know I didn't want for anything growing up. I weren't rich, but you know, my mom did what she had to do to take care of us. My stepdad took care
of us. I had a relationship, continued relationship with my father. I had a lot of role models. I went to McDonald thirty five, the first all black high school in New Orleans, nationally recognized Blue Ribbon school, so I had a great education.
Went to Loyola University in New Orleans.
So I stayed close to home and close to my family until I graduated, and I moved to Boston right out of college to work for the Boston Globe. But yeah, I would say, just my upbringing. Man, It's just I had so many people, you know. I had a village really simple and playing, whether it's my church family, my immediate family, my extended family, the community. I just had a lot of people behind me pushing me toward success. And I'm really really grateful for it. I got nothing
but fond memories. You know, As a father, I often say, you know, our job is at our children to adulthood with as few scars as possible, physical and emotional and mental. I know that I am so blessed and so fortunate to be able to say that I didn't carry any trauma throughout my childhood. And into adulthood, and I think it's just one of the It's something I did not have to overcome, quite honestly, when it came to being a father and a husband, you know, and a citizen myself.
And so I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful for everybody that poured into me as a kid. And I wouldn't be where I am without my family and like I said, without my community and went up that village.
Yeah, it sounds like you had a lot of support and a lot of love and maybe not a lot of trauma. But can you go back and can you remember an early memory of struggle or pain or anything that you saw in the world that kind of impacted you.
You know, I would say initially, you know, my parents separated quite a bit. They were kind of they were always married, but on and off, you know what I mean, And so we moved around a lot. My dad was kind of in and out of I wouldn't see in it and out of the picture, because he was always you know, were always connected and close. He was always there, but in terms of like the nuclear family and in the household kind of in and out, as I recall.
And then they got divorced a little bit after a little while after I turned ten.
Initially that was tough, But like I said, I give a lot of credit to my.
Stepdad, you know, for coming in and loving two boys that weren't his as if they were his. So that was that could have been challenging. And maybe it is in ways that I hadn't unpacked yet. But you know, whether my grandfather was like a father to me, my uncle was like a father to me, you know, uncles for that matter, you know, And I was all and again my stepdad stepped up. And then there's teachers who looked after me. So for some children, that might have
been traumatic. And we haven't really talked about it, but I think it affected my younger brother maybe more than it affected me, at least on this on the level that I'm aware of. Again, it may be some stuff beneath the surface that I just haven't gotten too. So I'm not go say it didn't affect me. I guess it says something that was the first thing I referenced.
Right beyond that, yeah, I would I would say I would say there was enough of a cushion and enough of a cocoon, and enough arms being you know, put around me to where I wouldn't say that I missed. And again my dad wasn't around. He moved away and lived in Miami. I lived in New Orleans. But it wasn't like he wasn't there when you know, when I told my a cl my senior year high school playing football, he was at that game and he was there, you know.
So you know, I don't want to paint the picture like, you know, like I was abandoned. No, far from it. But that was an adjustment and a challenge more than it was I would say a struggle. But if I had the points of probably the most traumatic thing as it relates to my family, I was older and I had grown up, and I you know, moved to Boston and just started my family. But obviously a Hurricane Katrina was very difficult for my family. They had to evacuate to Boston and lived with me and my wife. My
parents lost everything, my grandparents or my grandmother. My grandfather had passed by then my grand mother lost everything. You know, displacement that they're that trauma is real, and it's still its generational and I still annoy that we've properly identified how much that reverbates or you know, from the generations of people who experienced Katrina as adults, as kids, and
even their kids. I don't know that we can properly quantify that, but yeah, I would I would say I would say that's split between my parents is the probably the earliest memory beyond that the eighteen years I spent under my mom's roof. You know, it wasn't always you know, peaches and cream, you know what I'm saying. You know, I got into it my stepdad. I was a hard headed you know, I was in you know, but I didn't get any trouble. I didn't run with the wrong crowd.
And I think part of that too is just like a being a preacher's kid and my grandfather, you know, it was kind of a big deal in New Oranes, you know what I mean. You know, his church was the first one broadcast over the radios. So it's like people kind of knew who I was, and they knew where I was going. And so I lived in a pretty decent part of town. Even the opportunities to stray were met with. Hey man, you know, you were a straight a student. You know this, this this ain't for you.
You're on a path. Let's keep you on that path, you know what I'm saying.
I can relate a lot to what you said about My parents divorced when I was seven, and I would always say this was up until about two years ago and I'm forty five years old now, but I would always say, my parents made the best out of the what could have been a bad situation. They you know, they got divorced when I was seven or eight. They've always been cordial, they really did, and from my perspective,
seemed like they were making it about the kids. But it wasn't until a couple of years ago that I, with some outside help and therapy, that I identified that I'm the youngest of four and ultimately went to live with my dad. I would see my mom a couple times a week. But there's like legit trauma there that I never even realized, because it's like, now I'm separated from my mom and I'm the youngest of four and I'm a mama's boy, and there was a lot there
and I never really realized it. And you know, with that new awareness, it was just like, actually, that probably did have an impact on me. So yeah, I can relate a lot to what you're sharing, and it was like I just assumed that this was it was kind of normal. We just adapted.
Michael, you've discussed your pain with as far as your parents separation. I want to know what role did your passion for storytelling play.
In the process.
Was that a way for you to escape that or was it a way to find joy in that process? Like, take me through your journey as developing your passion at the same time of dealing with this pain.
Yeah, I would say, you know, I didn't grow up. I wasn't a German. I didn't I didn't write story I wasn't somebody who kept the journal.
I always loved movies, always loved movies.
And my uncle and I, my grandfather and I and even my grandmother as well, bonded over movies.
We watched the same movies all over all the time, over and over again.
And because again I grew up the grandson of a Baptist pastor and first lady, it was only certain types of movies we could watch from my grandparents' house.
You know what I'm saying.
You know, I couldn't. I couldn't. I couldn't throw all you know, Uh, you know Eddie Murphy Raw or something like that at my grandparents house. But uh, you know, love always loved movies as much as as I love sports. My grandfather and I would have a race to the newspaper to uh get the sports section to read about the Saints and and and the dispattus from Lacrosse, Wisconsin and training camp. And looking back, that that's the origin of my obsession with team building, with reporting with detail
and uh and I just read. I read the sports section in particular cover to cover, and in terms of writing, I guess that I got pushed into that. More about my high school teachers who thought I had a gift for it. I did not grow up with a dream of being a sports writer, which I ended up being right out of college or during college. But what's interesting is it's somehow you manifest stuff and don't even know it.
So I was the salutatory in my high school graduating class class ninety seven the local newspaper, The Times, Picking un which I would go on to work at The Times picking You. They did like a little Q and A with me, and they asked me what my dream job was and would you believe at seventeen years old, I say, as Sports Center ranker, I think it was because I grew up watching like a Stuart Scott. It was inspired by that, and like everybody else was obsessed
with you know, ESPN, and I didn't pursue broadcasting. I ended up, you know, like I said, during a high school internship at the Times picking You, doing a college internship at the Times picking un in New Orleans, and then twice at the Boston Globe for two summers. And when I got out of college, I was a you know, obviously went back to the Boston Robe to work full time. And even that first internship at the time speaking You only came about because I was like, well to summer school,
like a summer job. And they called me and I was like, hey, we've never had a sports intern. Would you like to be out of sports intern? I was like, sure, you mean I get paid to write about sports, sign me up.
And honestly, that's where that's where it started.
It started from again, somebody looking out from me and having me an opportunity, and I just took it in the ring with it.
It looks like from you had a pretty good job a getting with the Boston Globe, like right, out of college. Look like you had a lot of ambition to pursue this and it looked like it served you in a way. But ultimately with uh, we'll get into how your story ends up playing out. Do you ever feel like your ambition was like hindering you in a way or hindering maybe your perspective potentially at any point in your journey?
Oh god, yes, oh my god, Oh we could be we could we just spend all day just on that, you know, like I think, and because my career was on such a fast track, so like just to little quick recap. It's like, so I intern at the time speaking year after my freshman year of college. Then I interned at the Boston Globe after my sophomore in junior years, and they had never been a two time Boston Globe intern,
let alone sports intern. And at the time, the Boston Globe was the premiere or pre eminent sports section in the country, like talking about Super Team, Dream Team, Boston Globe sports staff, right, So then they say come back after college.
So I'm twenty one years old at the Boston Globe.
They knew how much I loved covering pro football, so I'm helping out not the main beat writer, but the backup beat right on the Patriots beat. And if you do the math, that's the that's the two thousand and one season, two thousand and two Super Bowl. So I'm back in New Orleans less than a year after graduating high school covering the Super Bowl for the Boston Globe. So you're gonna talk about perspective, I had none, Okay.
And then two years later they started a TV show where they're gonna put cameras in the inside of a newsroom and it's gonna be sports writers from around the country.
Twenty years later, that TV show is still on television. That's around the Horn.
So I'm twenty three, twenty four years old on National freaking Television on ESPN.
Okay.
And then at twenty four years old, ESPN's like, hey, why don't you come work for us full time? So the very thing that people spend their whole lives trying to achieve and the place they spend their whole careers trying to get to, I was there three years out of college.
I had a couple of coffee.
At the Boston Gold Farm at ESPN and on National Television, and I and so what I The only regret I have there is that I never appreciated the journey because I was always so fixated on what was next and more and the rat race, and I never appreciated how far I come and how quickly I come that far. And I don't think I enjoyed it as much, to be honest with you, I don't think I enjoy what I was doing. And it took a while for me to get to a place of enjoying what I was doing.
And by a while, I mean only really the last few years for me to really appreciate what I did, what I had the opportunity to do, what I achieved, and how I achieved it. But man, I mean, I just it's almost like a rookie that just kind of like dominates right out to gat me, like oh this is easy, or you know, like Da Marino back in the day going to the Super Bowl his second year, like oh, I'm gonna be here all the time.
It was.
It was kind of like that for me. It's like, oh, this is what it's supposed to be. And so I was completely a devoted perspective.
Yes, So what you're saying is it almost is like you had to have it taken from you to really appreciate it.
That's exactly right. Boy, you're good at this. Yes, you would seeing right through me. Man, Yes, that's exactly right. I had to. I had to experience. So that's another thing, man, Like I was, I did not know what professional adversity was. Most people, you know, have to grind and they have
to start off in like a small market. And you know, I made more money my first job out of college than my parents made in any year or years of combined my entire life, like right out of college, you know, and then I go to ESPN and I made X times that.
You know what I'm saying.
It's like, so I just never experienced the rough side of the mountain that so many people have to experience in this business out of college, whether it's freelancing or whether it's working at a small market or you know, I was just it all came so quickly and so easily.
It wasn't until.
You know, my late thirties then I actually that linear or that that accelerated path that meteoric rise was interrupted. And so that was challenging to, like I said, to have it taken away from me. And yes, the blessing in the struggle was being able to appreciate what I'd done, what i accomplished, what I'd experienced, what I've been blessed with and gifted with. But also honestly, you know, look at myself in a different way. And that and that
that was that was helpful, and I needed that. I needed that struggle to, uh to better appreciate my blessings. I counted my blessings uh more deliberately when it got hard, and and and that and that was. I appreciate that because I don't I think maybe I would have just gone on taking it all for granted and thinking that it was normal.
You know, It's like you don't know what you have until it's until it's gone. And space, I always like to say space. Space creates appreciation. And I've heard you say early on that you were allowing that submission.
Yeah, I mean, because see I was so I'm you know, I also hit the sidebar real quick. I was just trying to thok my My stepdad is an accomplished singer, and my parents have an R and B band down in New Orleans, right, so I we had I grew up in a musical family like Vinyl everywhere, band Rehearson in the living room. And so you said spaceally creates appreciation. My mind went to Jeffrey osborn An Ltd. Concentrate on you. It takes separation to bring appreciation. So you preach it
right there. That's how I use that line on the town.
Yeah, oh, I love it.
And but you had said early on, I've heard you say that you let your ambition get in the way of your appreciation. And that's so early or so often early in your career it was seeking external validation, which of course if you're in your twenty twenty two, twenty three years old I it brought me back to where I was at at that age and just so concerned with what other people thought about me, the external other people's opinions, because I had no tools. I'm still a
young kid, you know. Even just performance based sports, everything is statistics. If you you got to be good enough to make the team, and then to make the team, you got to it was all about other people's opinions. And so it would make sense that you were so so much seeking for that external validation because you're just a kid still thrust into that world.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't.
Know if it was as much seeking external validation, because I mean I think it might. Actually, honestly, Donnie might have been the opposite extreme, which is like you couldn't tell me shit.
It's like you could. I mean, I'm twenty three, twenty four.
Years old at ESPN on national television with people twice my age, if not more, holding my own.
I thought I had it all figured out.
I thought I had all the answers, and that lack of perspective manifested itself and being impatient, you know what I mean, Like, you know, I wanted things that frankly I was not ready for. You know, I didn't trust the process.
You know, I can.
Only imagine how people listen, no matter how much of a wondercund I was, no matter how much of a prodigy I was. I can only imagine how people who had grinded and paid their dues and experienced things and seeing things must have looked at this kid, you know who.
That's not that I lacked humility. I think I've always carried myself with the level of humility, But you know, I just I didn't understand what it meant to just kind of like wait, my turn and how everything came would come and do time and accordance with God's plan. It's like I wanted I wanted at all. I wanted it now, you know what I mean. If I didn't get it now, I'm like, well, why am I not getting it now?
You know? I'm now.
It's not it's maybe this is somewhat external validation, maybe, or it's maybe it's a very close relative of external validation. But it's like comparing myself to other people, or why is he doing that and I'm not? You know, why is he getting that and I'm not? You know, I'm better than him and I should be here and I should be doing this and I should have that, and you know, it's like that type of stuff, that comparison game. And by the way, this is pre social media, you know,
because it only amplified with social media. The highlight film that everybody is paying attention to. Yeah, I think a lot of that robbed me of that perspective that we a litle too earlier.
When you talk about the level of confidence and ego that you have, like I'm him, like I'm here. I feel like for me and my experience when moments that come that may threaten that thought I have about myself. It's easy for me to slip into self doubt. Do you feel like you felt that way when it seemed like the career that you built was now uncertain?
Yes, and that always confused me.
Maybe y'all can help me with that, because you know, there was a lot there were times despite my confidence and bravado and how self assured I was, there was also some impostle syndrome. And I'm not sureing how those two things can coexist. I'm not sophisticated enough to break down how those can co exist because I always thought that am I gonna get exposed? And then when I would?
You know, and when I say, I did not experience real professional adversity back in those days, and I guess we're at the time period where I'm in my early twenties and I'm on the fast track and my mid twenties or whatever. Back in those days, I thought I was experiencing adversity, but didn't really know what adversity was. In hindsight, right, you know, there was a lot of uh, well, you know, am I as good as I think I am? And Okay, down there there's the external validation, right, So it was.
Like, am I really am I really? Am? Am I fooling myself? You know?
Maybe I'm Maybe I'm not all that in a bag of chips, you know, and maybe this is all there is for me. Maybe what I want, what I'm dreaming of, will never come, maybe it's not for me. And then there was all sort of resentment. So that's the internal part. Then there's the what they don't appreciate me, you know, they don't, they don't they don't see the start that I am. They don't you know, I'm not getting what I deserve, you know, they sleeping on your boy, all
that type of stuff. So it's it kind of vacillated between uh, some self doubt and then some resentment and.
Frustration and professional frustration about.
Feeling like I wasn't getting, you know, what I wanted, you know, or what I deserved better, better what I deserved when I should have gotten it.
Darren, can you relate to that imposter syndrome? I know we've talked about it a bunch. I know I have it, but I I'd love to hear your thoughts and how you work through that on the stage that you have.
Oh yeah, I got. I have two. I have two things for you. One I don't know if I've shared either one of these, but one is twenty twenty, we played the New York Jets, which is actually the day before was the day we recorded the very first episode of Comeback Stories. Had to plug that in there. But the Jets game, I had two hundred yards receiving that game, and very easily could have been more if there were a couple of little things that I could have done differently.
But the next practice we have on Wednesday, I think I drop a pass like in routes on air, and I'm like, I don't even know why I'm building a house out here. They're gonna shit me out of this place. Like that's how quick my mind can shift. I've two hundred yards. I think there's only been four tight ends in the history of the NFL that I've ever done
what I've just done. And I come and I meet a moment of not even real adversity, just a human experience in this game that I play, and I'm so quick to go to the complete other end of the spectrum. And my sponsor paints a picture that's so vivid if you look at a spectrum, right, and there's there's a one and a ten. A ten is you're being an egomaniac, and a one would be you're so anti ego that you don't even really have true humility or affirm your
own strengths. And my sponsors like, brother, we got to get you to a five, like meditate on that, like what does a five look like? What does a balance look like? To where you can show up and be confident in what you bring to the table without having to flex it on everybody else or be seen for it, but really to truly just embody your truest energy and your truest self and show up in that manner. And it's still an ongoing practice for me. I'm sure it's
an ongoing practice for all of us. It's something that we have to keep in the forefront of our mind. And Michael, I feel like you're starting and really starting to get that because you've experienced what people would see as shiny and sexy success being on the six PM Sports Center slot, but that wasn't ultimately fulfilling for you.
But now being able to be in a position where telling your own stories and doing what you want to do is that much more fulfilling, Like how does one arrive to that point?
How did I arrive to that point?
One of the things I like about this show, you know, as a storyteller, it certainly resonates for me, is how you guys talk about the story you tell yourselves.
Sorry, I'll try to. It's very very complicated.
Literally books have been written about it, but I'll try to summarize the inflection point, you know, which is why I name my company Inflection Point Entertainment when I found it back in twenty twenty, because that's when the story gets good.
Sometimes I just don't know it.
I get my own show back in twenty eleven, I would have been for mathis right, that's what thirty two. It becomes a hit. Around twenty fourteen, it really starts to take off. Twenty seventeen, I get that job that I manifested as a teenager. I had no idea what I was saying as a sports center ancor on a six PM a sports center.
In short, it was a disaster for a number.
Of reasons, which we can get into, or we could say that for another time, because y'all only got.
So much time.
But you know, I was in professional limbo from I would say twenty eighteen. March Night twenty eighteen was my last Sports Center March ninth to twenty eighteen to September of twenty nineteen. It so about eighteen months I was
in professional limbo, just kind of off the grid. I was off the grid, but I was in my own head quite a bit, and it took me a while and a couple of startups to get to a point where I started to tell myself the story in which that chapter, that ESPN chapter or chapters were necessary, and be grateful for those chapters because, like with every story, those chapters proceeded and set up and laid the foundation
for what was to come. And once I could get past my bitterness and resentment that I felt about how what I think, if I may say so, it was a damn good fifteen year run how it ended, I was able to appreciate it and count it all joy and celebrated and not be ashamed of anything. And even the idea I was thinking about this, you know, I was gonna talk to you guys, the idea of a comeback.
Right.
When I think of comebacks, I think of, well, I'm trailing or I'm losing or I'm behind, but according to whose scoreboard?
Right?
It's like, you know, I was winning the whole time. But my perspective was I had suffered a loss or a setback. Wasn't It wasn't a setback. It was just the end of one chapter but at the beginning of another one, and I was just moving in a different direction, but still moving forward. Nonetheless, I had to, like, you know, which means to change your mind.
I had to.
I had to change my mind in my paradigm from man, I'm holding the l to okay, I'm actually being pushed and moved into more of my purpose. I was using this comparison to somebody earlier. It's kind of like it's kind of like renting a house versus buying it, you know, like owning a house is a.
Pain in the ass, you know, But I wouldn't rent. I prefer to own my own home.
And now I'm owning my career in a way that I didn't no matter how much I was getting paid, no matter how recognizable I was, butter how successful I was, I didn't own those ideas, that intellectual property.
I didn't own that platform. And I learned that the hard way, right, I.
Now can tell my own stories and empower other people to tell their stories and to own their stories and to own their narratives. And that started with me owning like as you guys often say, owning my own narrative and not letting other people write my story for me, like not what kind of story tell myself? But what kind of story am I writing for myself? And what is my next chapter? Who are the characters that need to be written out of my story? Who are the
people that I want to introduce into my story? Where do I want to take my story? Like I'm in
complete control of how I contextualize that. And it just took me a while, a lot of dark days, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of anxiety to work through that to be comfortable with where I was and where I was going to answer a question like that's how I got to a point where I'm fulfilled in what I'm doing because my next chapter is challenging in a way that my last one wasn't you know, And even if I don't, you know, succeed in the same ways,
successes look different. And so now I'm keeping my own score and so my wins are up to me to determine what are my wins or if I view something as a loss. And that was the shift for me, is to not look at the way things ended at ESPN as a law as a setback from which I had to come back from.
Like no, it was just a setup for what was.
Next ownership that we were just talking about this on a previous conversation Darren and I were having where my life completely changed when I started to take ownership and
started blaming stop blaming everybody else for my problems. And you also mentioned success, and I think it's so important to come up with our own definition of success because the hook and I think why a lot of people are unhappy is because they're basing their success on somebody else's definition, which is why it's so important to look at our values and come up with our own definition of success. With that gap and not working, it was too I think you said twenty eighteen to twenty nineteen.
Yeah, now I was still with I was still with ESPN. This is how messed up I was and how hard it was. It's like I was still getting paid a lot of money to not work. But that was such a mind job, because you know, I never did it for the money, and my routine was so interrupted.
And I can unpack that a little bit more later.
But I was still with ESPN, but was unable to appreciate the blessing that that stretch was for all the anxiety about what was next and all the resentment about what had just happened. But go ahead, Donnie, Sorry, I just want to clarify it.
I was. I was still there, but just not as prominent.
Yeah, I was just going to say, what was with all of that happening? Did you have a lowest point? I mean, Darren and I have lowest points. There were the result of an addiction, which was which much of it was self inflicted. But can you take us to maybe your lowest point?
Oo? Man, Okay. And the reason I struggle to pick one hour is because it was such.
A stretch, like I don't know, I don't know that there was one ground zero or you know, I'd have to think about it.
I just know that I was I was a shell of myself.
I would say I was just in a fog for a long time and I just couldn't I felt like a prisoner. I think somebody wrote about it, and they said that, you know, these gold plated handcuffs that I had, I was making a shit ton of money to do nothing. And I, Okay, this isn't a point, Donny, but this
is a I guess this is an example. I stopped watching sports altogether because I couldn't watch sports because for fifteen for almost twenty years, I had consumed sports through the prism of somebody who was a part of that machine as far as well, I'm watching this game, and I'm formulating opinions and thoughts and crystallizing my perspective of my commentary that I'm going to now present to the
masses tomorrow. I got a showlder do, I got a job to do, and so I had to go to restaurants, for example, and make sure that my back was to the television because I couldn't watch ESPN because it was triggering, you know, when I was at home. You know, my favorite event as the NFL Draft. It's my favorite sporting event, which speaks to the nerd that I am. And I couldn't watch the NFL Draft because all I could think about was the years that I was a part of
the NFL Draft coverage. I couldn't watch, you know, any of the talk shows because all I would think about was I should still be doing that.
I should still I should still be I should still be a part of that. All it did was remind me of opening those old wounds and remind me of that of that trauma. You know, I had to distance myself from sports for a long time until I was pulled back in it in twenty twenty, you know, and my son actually brought me back into it, to be honest with you, because I realized that I was robbing
him of some experiences with his father. And I got back into sports when I started to kind of view it through his eyes and the innocence of his eyes, and you know, took him to some.
Games and watch some games with him as he grew older. And he's fifteen now, but he was just starting to really get into it when I was stopped being selfish about it and saying, all right, I don't want to watch it because it was hurting me. But the joy that he was getting out of it and the bonding that we were able to experience that also brought me back into sports. But I would say, you know, and
if a moment comes to me, I'll share it. Like, you know, I can't remember like one out of the many sleepless nights, I can't remember one, you know, out of the many. It was a time when I just I couldn't go a day without going down that hole, that rabbit hole. I couldn't, you know. And mind you, I still live in Connecticut. I'm still a stone's throw away from ESPN. And somebody told me a long time ago,
you can't kill where you got sick. And so I would drive past that place and I would have to almost like cut off my peripheral vision so that I didn't look in that direction.
Like it was a hard, difficult.
Shit like I was like my like my head is just was just like I had so many thoughts and I kept flashing back to moments and what could I have done differently? And was it? Was it really my fault? And you know, how could this have happened to me? And like y'all remember that movie Kill Bill, Volume two when the bride finally meets Bill at the end and.
She said, you know, could you do that? Yes? But I never thought you could do that to me.
Somewhere along the line, I got it twisted that I would never be shown the door, you know. And I don't know if it's because I thought I was so good or because I had such a long tenure, but it was like I was completely mind fucked, you know, for the longest stretch of time. It's really I guess time is the point, like time heals all wounds. And you know, once I started to kind of like just really move forward and really embrace where I was as opposed to looking back on where I had come from
and where I thought I should still be. Once that unlocked, that that changed everything for me. And I'll tell you what, I don't miss it at all, not a you know not. I never sit around and say, oh I wish I.
Was still there. Never I wouldn't. I'm glad.
And the funny thing is, for a long time, I said, this goes back to ego. For a long time, I said, oh, I want to spend fifteen years at ESPN and leave when I was when I'm forty years old. I spent fifteen years at ESPN and left when I was forty years old. It was the how that I left that messed me up. I wanted to be the one to break up with them. I wanted to be the one to say, you know what, it's been real. I wanted
bigger and better. I had no idea I was going to take a buyout and kind of leave with a whimper.
You know.
I thought I'd get a cake and shit and a special and a moon tage of all my greatest moments, you know what I mean. Like, nah, I play Daddy Hide ends for all of us. Everybody came right off into the sunset. But I remember the sun shining real bright the day I decided I'm not just gonna sit here in Limbo, I'm going to leave. And I drove off, and I remember the weather. The birds were singing, the weather was beautiful, and I handed my ID badge into the security guard for the last time, and I felt
so free for a moment. I still had some trauma to work through after that, but I felt free for that moment. And now I just feel like I'm supposed to be here, and I was supposed to go through all that for a reason to be here with y'all.
Right now, man, oh man, wow, I got that marinate for a second.
I hope I'm not rambling too much. Man, It's just you know, y'all.
Just no, No, that's just it's so, it's just it's just so, it's just so powerful, you know, Like I man, I have a gold plated handcuffs experience myself getting to the NFL drafted. I'm with the Baltimore Ravens. Every single goal that could be on a sheet of paper, I've checked off, and I've never never been more miserable making great money. You know, everybody knows who I am. Everybody from my hometown holds me in a certain puts me
on a pedestal because of what I've done. And I was like, this is all I've ever wanted, and it ends up being the most painful internally to the point to the point where I wanted to self sabotage it and not wanted to succeeded in self sabotaging it, because not only was I struggling with do I even deserve this? But this is it was so much pain of like, this is what I've been searching for all my life, and this is all that it was to stomach. That
was a lot. And when I got banned from the league for a year, go to rehab, come back, get a job working at Sprouts, like there's no intention on me ever returning to football. Like I was like you, like, I'm not trying to watch football games. I'm not trying to go to my college or my high school and be like this is a guy that made it to I wanted nothing to do with any of that, but it was literally the authentic joy in the relationship with
the guy that I was training with. His name is Nakway Mac and getting out there back on the field and just filling the grass underneath my feet, you know, running through the same drills and just being immersed in
the moment of just improving my craft. We were sharing the field with a high school team seven on seventeen and let us get like the twenty yards of the end zone and we just running drills, and it's just like gaining an appreciation for just the work of what I'm doing, not necessarily where I'm going and how it looks or whether I'm in front of a lot of people or I'm in the spotlight, but just like, do I feel good about what I'm doing right here right now?
In days stacked of that allowed me to not only return to the game, but return to the game with a purpose. I'm not just here to entertain you. I'm here to have a platform and to attract attention to me somebody that's been broken, somebody that's been hurting, somebody that's done the worldly success thing and achieved everything but felt meetingless on the inside. Like I need to get these words out of me. I need to get this story out of me, because somebody needs to hear this
because we're believing lies. We're believing lies about ourselves and the narratives we tell ourselves and just overall what we think life should be and what a success is. And I think about it, if only I didn't have to go through it, But now I'm like, shame on me for thinking if I didn't have to go through it, because going through it has turned into the most beautiful perspective shifter for me. And I know Donnie feels the
same way. If somebody's writing their story right now and you listen to this, like, it's not going to come free of pain, it's not going to come free of disappointment, it's not going to come free of heartbreak at times, but it's gonna get better. And it sounds cliche and it's hard to believe in the moment because I look at people like, man, whatever when they tell me that. But it became true for me, and it's still true for me to this day.
Your test was a testimony. Man, that's beautiful.
Did you suffer from embarrassment because I know, I know I struggle with embarrassment when I was going through it. Because even though whether things that I could have done differently or ways I could approach approach my situation differently, yes, you know, do I have some regrets about things that I wish would have gone differently, yes, but a lot of things were a lot of the way everything played out. And it's not that I'm pointing a finger. I'm saying
it was things beyond my control. You know, understand, I'm saying like its just that had nothing to do with me, which is also part of egos, like realizing that it's not really about shot. But I when when I was kind of you know, for lack of better foras put in a corner, some would say made an example of which is a whole other conversation. I thought it was a referendum or an indictment on my ability or lack thereof. Well, I must not be the ship if they could just
like kick me to the curve like this. You know, this must be because I'm not that good, because they wouldn't do that to X, Y or Z. And then going back to like I said earlier, like coming back or trailing or losing the court to whose scoreboard it's like the outside world definitely let me know that I took an l that I that I had fallen off, you know that you know.
Was writing my story for me, and this was the end. You know.
It took a while, and then one of the best things somebody said to me, my friend Jane McManus at the time, she was in charge of the communication.
She's a you know, very successful sportswriter. At the time.
She's at Seaton Hall now, I believe, but at the time she was at Maris College and she had me teach an interview in class for like half a semester. But I remember laying on literally laying on her couch and kind of just like pouring my heart out towards She said, your problem is you are looking at yourself
through their eyes as they get through ESPN's eyes. And that convicted me and I realized that, you know, it had nothing to do with what I was or who I wasn't, what I could do or what I couldn't do.
It was great. It was bigger than me.
And once I got over like that feeling of shame, I was able to receive a lot of the flowers that people have for me, and, like you said, start to be that inspiration that people need from me to be and lean into that more again, you know, keeping with the scoreboard things like, you know, it's like the.
Game ain't over.
Maybe I am trailing, either in my own mind or from the world's perspective, you know, according to whatever scoreboard. You know, But I'm still in the game. You know, I'm still in the game. I'm still in the fighting.
You know.
It's still time on the clock. I don't know how much time, but I'm getting up every day. There's still time on the clock for me to do something with. It's still plays to be made, you know. And so now the fulfillment comes from every every meeting, every email, you know. And and also man, like, I love how you talked about that process you felt. It's not like you fell in love with the process of just getting better every day.
You know.
It wasn't the fame. It wasn't the lights, it wasn't the money, it wasn't the glory. It was just the love of the game, right, the adoration outside aderation. Like Donnie talked about earlier, that external validation wasn't doing it for you, That wasn't fueling you.
You had to find your own fuel.
Like and for me being on camera, being on television, like and I never got caught up.
And people recognized me.
I never got caught up with what people said because I always know it could work.
It could work both ways.
But for me now going back to that question of how it's fulfilling, now, it's like, man, every email, every meeting, every possibility of every project, every discussion, every relationship, all that stuff is like, I love it.
I love it.
I love the process of building something, of building something that I can call my own, of empowering other people to tell their stories, of amplifying marginalized voices, of giving people the same shot that I needed once upon a time to get where I wanted to go. Like, I'm in such a better place than I otherwise, what have I guess?
And the story is still not over.
The comeback quote unquote and put it in air quotes is still in process, in progress.
I beg your pardoner, It's still a process. I'm still a work in progress.
A bad day for the ego is a good day for the soul. And I think that process you're in now has kind of led you to inflection points. So can you tell us a little bit about where you're at now? And I'm kind of curious where you came up with that name.
So this would have been twenty and seventeen.
I was fortunate enough, blessed enough to be admitted to the twenty first class of the Aspen Institute's Henry Crown Fellowship. One of the I guess the missions of the Fellowship is to find professionals who are at inflection points in their lives and careers and find people who are using their resources and their relationships to help close the gap between the world's problems and solutions.
You can tell I've said that a few times because I kind of got to memorize it.
And so as you know, that phrase inflection point became really popular during the twenty twenty presidential election, but you know I had it first because I, you know, named my company inflection Point Entertainment. Not only was I inspired to name my company Inflection Point Entertainment based off of me being at a personal inflection point, which nobody puts a shelf life on that inflection point.
You know, I was.
I was on it, you know, personally and professionally, but professionally from like twenty eighteen to I don't know, I'm still in it in many respects.
Right.
You said You've said previously that the uncomfortable part is when the story gets good.
That's another way of talking.
About the inflection point, like that point of change, when things change or in some cases when shit hits the fan, is when the story really gets good.
And so I'm drawing I like to start stories there.
I'm drawn to stories of inflection points within individuals, within industries, within institutions, and so that was the inspiration for the name of the company.
Yeah, you're an amazing storyteller, There's no doubt about that. With everything that you've experienced, just like us, has led us to this beautiful moment of connection and having meaningful conversations and then creating a platform that's allowing Darren and I not only to share our stories, but for other people to share their stories and you to share your story it's a beautiful moment that we're at. Can you talk a little bit about some of the projects other than ours that you've undertaken.
Yeah, Inflection Point Entertainment.
We are we like to call ourselves genre and platform agnostic, which is another way of saying we will tell cool stories, no matter the platform, no matter the subject matter. In addition to the Inflection Network, the Inflection Podcast Network, we have several feet your films in development. We have scripted series of development, documentaries and development and like, we just like to tell cool stories and like we stay amongst ourselves.
We like to, you know, do dope shit with cool people. And you guys fit the bill, you know what I mean.
And so and more than anything is like empower and amplify and elevate, enlighten and entertain. Those are some of our north stars when it comes to the content that we're developing in the stories that we're the stories that we tell.
The man, I speak for so many people that are listening today when I say that we appreciate the way that you responded when she hit the fan and the way that you're continuing to respond and write your story. It's been it's just been incredible to have this conversation with you, Man, I would want to ask you, if there's somebody that's been listening, they may be overwhelmed with
a lot of information and story and perspective today. If they could take away one thing today, what would you leave them with?
Keep pushing, just keep pushing, and and I think it goes back to something that you said earlier and something that I believe in is you know, it's like you got to you gotta love the process. You gotta love the craft, like you can't love the result. If you if you love the results, those come and go. That
gratification can be delayed. You know, if if you're in anything for recognition, if you're in it for the money, if you're in it for fame, if you're in it for glory, that could all be fleeting, come and go, and it could be taken away like that. But your love and your passion for what's your call to do, loving your passion for your purpose, that's up to you
to maintain. And so I would say, you know, when it when it gets hard, like try to just rediscover and get reconnected with why you're doing what you're doing in the first place. Because that that's what makes it worth it. Like, you know, I just love telling stories, regardless of whether whatever platform I had and whether it was taken or how it was taken, whatever platform on or what'll be on. I's like nobody could, nobody could take away my ability and my passion and my love for storytelling.
And so yeah, like just you know.
Just don't lose your love and have faith, have faith in yourself, have faith in the Higher Power, have faith or at the universe that you prefer, or whatever God you serve. It's like, just understand it. There's a plan for your life. But that God has plans, you know, that has plans for you and plans to give you hope in the future and to prosper you and not to harm you, you know. And so that that's what I just leaned into.
And it ain't easy. It definitely ain't easy. But I think you said this earlier, Darren, you know.
But it's worth it in the end, and all that all that pain is preparing you, it's molding you for something else because I just move differently now, you know. I move with a different urgency, with a different purpose, with a different peace. And I didn't always have it, but I'm grateful for it now. I'm grateful for this entire journey and I'm excited. Another phrase I love is and that drew me to you, guys, feeling what you're
doing is like it's knowledge. Somebody told me that knowledge is the only thing that you can get away and not lose it. And so I love anybody that's in the business of just passing all knowledge and passing on wisdom.
Right.
And so when I first got to left ESPN and joined a startup and that lasted seven weeks, that's another podcast. One of the partners at the startup said, you don't work for anybody anymore. Decide what you want your days to look like. Decide what you want your weeks to look like, your months, your years. And that's always stuck
with me. So even if you're drawing a paycheck from somebody, even if you're not an entrepreneur, you don't have your own company or whatever, even if you work at nine to five, still like I would, I would answer your question, Darren lean into that like you decide how you want your days to look and your and your and your weeks and your months and your years to look It's
best you can under your circumstances. And again, even if you're punching the clock, even if you on somebody else's payroll, shift your perspective to I work with them, not for them, Like you're working for yourself. You're working for your answering to a higher a thought like don't just be miserable in a job, like always be walking in your purpose and use that job as a means doing it.
And the doors of the church are open.
As a fellow grandson of a preacher, I feel like anybody listened to this conversation today is going to leave with the wealth of knowledge and wisdom. Michael, thank you for your time and your testimony. My brother Donnie, I love you man. Thank you guys for joining us for another episode of come Back Stories. Make sure you reach out and tell somebody that we've come back and that
we're gonna keep coming back. And you can check us out wherever you download podcasts, watch us, listen for us on the Inflection Point YouTube page, and we're gonna catch you guys next week.
Comeback Stories is a production of Inflection Network and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.