I can hear you. Now, what's up?
Man? Sorry, I don't, I don't. I'm not sure what what led to that, but let's uh, let's get the conversation started again. ESPN analyst College Basketball Hall of Famer Jay Williams. I'll just start by backing up to last last Wednesday, obviously Louisville.
Wait, wait, hold on, Nick, how are you? How are This is the first encounter.
I'm doing, a very good encounter for you and I, well, very good encounter for.
You and I.
I asked the same question, how are you? And I guess you didn't hear me. I was very I mean I was I was friendly. I was just wanting to see how you were doing before we dive in. But and I thought, maybe there's some kind of a prank. Maybe that's not really Jay Williams.
But I can tell that I was around with a week week.
What's going on?
We like to, you know, to mess around, and there's a lot of nonsense that goes on within this show, but none of that right now. But I'll just back up to Wednesday when it comes to the you know, for me being triggered by you saying that that Pat Kelcey was doing a good job. It's nice that Louisville is back, and you referenced what but Pat Kelsey inherited, which of course was a was a Louisville basketball program that was at a low that I didn't know possible.
A lot of people would probably say the same thing. And there are many of folks that cover college basketball, a lot of them, of course, within your family of ESPN folks that at times, I in my opinion, my opinion only I don't not the only one, but it's my opinion they would gaslight Louisville fans initially that they didn't have a right to be critical and be upset and really just think this is going to go really bad,
meaning the Kenny Payne era. And I know the second year of that Kenny Payne experience, your tone was a little bit different than it was the first time around, and you were nowhere near I mean, I mean, I'll just tell you who it is. I think Corey Alexander and Seth Greenberg, and I'm sure they know Kenny personally, and you know, that's a fact that that matters, that's that makes an impact as far as how you address certain things. But I'm of the belief. And I'll ask
you this directly. Whenever Kenny Payne first got to Louisville and things were not going great, he didn't inherit a great situation. But were you all when you talk to the state, when you talk to people, when you come here to do a game and you get access and you're embedded within the program for that day or two that you're here, was it expressed that like there's really nothing that can be done. This is just the situation
because of a mess that was inherited. Because I think that was initially what a lot of people thought, and then you know it didn't really play out that way.
Well, first off, just let me tell you I love the way that we exchange notes and this is what this is how stuff should be. Right, Like, you have a strong opinion. I think a lot of times when I do TV, I do so much TV, people don't hear all the verticals in.
Which I do TV and what I say.
Right, So, and I really want to dig into this with you because I think it's important. So just know, like two years ago, I was coming back from the NBA. I was calling NBA games, so I was being reintroduced.
Back to college basketball.
Right, it was doing a radio show where we still talked about college basketball a little bit, but our primary thing we talked about was college football and NFL and NBA, and I was doing NBA Countdown.
So coming back into.
College ball last year, I obviously I paid attention to things that were going on between Kentucky, Louisville, Duke, all these great schools that I've known for so long, right, and I had context about the struggles, but that was really my first time calling a game and and hearing a lot of the reasoning behind why things weren't going well. So, but I also seen other schools in which didn't give off those similar excuses for lack of better terms, that
had turned around programs really really quickly. So at the beginning of the year, I called the game and I was like, you know what, just let me try to feel this out a little bit more, and like, let's see what he does this year. Because I don't know Nick, I know you don't know me. I am not afraid to save my damn mine on TV.
I don't know you. I don't know you, but I certainly believe that and I've seen that over the year, So I got you so you.
Know I say that at the beginning of the year and then you can you can look it up. Literally during the Kentucky game during halftime, I was like, I can't, I can't. I can't, I can't, I can't. I can't do that. I can't do that. Like I went so hard that even I felt like seth. I felt my producers like wow, like you really went in. I'm like, well, that's just unacceptable. But I had not been calling basketball on the college level for those two years, so you
didn't hear my voice anywhere around that stuff. That was my first time seeing it in real time, and I called it out for what it really was.
So you know, my thing is just knowing.
Who Pat Kelsey is and then frankly like going down there and also just now like Nola Smith was on that staff.
I know Nola Smith since his time at Duke.
Like, I'm not saying things are done right or wrong, but I was given a lot of insight when I found out about things, and then I saw things pan out, I was like, I don't I don't think this is the right way to go. So I'm not lambassing anybody, nick. I just went when I saw it, and then I watched it happen in real time. I said, Nah, unacceptable.
I can't. I can't back that.
So that that's just contextually how that whole situation went down.
And that makes total sense. And one of the things that you mentioned, as far as all the different the ways that you're in play, your ESPN utilizes you. Not only is it hard for people to always have full context, but there's probably things that other people say and they
just lump you in with it. And I think in the moment I probably did that a little bit because as soon as I did it, I was corrected by people who said, hey, actually, after at halftime of the UKU of L game last year, he was pretty direct about how this just needs to change. So you know it, it was so bad that it still doesn't even seem real as far as how bad louisvill basketball was at
that time. So I'm somebody who is very fortunate to have a position where I get to cover the team, but I'm a fan myself, So again, I was a little triggered when it comes to that, because I felt like the whole time that Louisville fans were aware that, man, this wasn't expected to be great from the jump, But man, this is malpractice as far as how things are being led. And I totally believe everything as far as what you were being told by people that you know, whether it
be Nolan or others. And I think there's probably some partial truth to all that. But you know you were right. You've always been very direct and not afraid to share your opinion as far as what you really think. But when it comes to how it I mean, how did it go that bad? In your mind? What do you think really was the ultimate root of it being just maybe one of the worst hires ever.
Look, man, Like, first off, I've learned how this game of like you know, I often joke around whether that's in business or sports, and those those two words are combined in our field, right, Like, so when you go on when you go on the road and you sit down with coaches, and I'm not saying this was done at Louisville, but you always got to kind of decipher, right, It's like playing a damn game Nick where you're like, Okay.
This guy told me this, but why is he telling me that? Right?
And then like you have to use other sources to be like all right, well, I was told this, did this really happen this way?
Or is it being presented to me?
So then I go on air and I say things right. So it's like you have to do a lot of due diligence through other sources and you have to watch it a lot to know whether you're kind of being bs or not to be real right. So you know, I think a lot of times at Louisville, my thing is like, look, this NIO game has changed a lot, right, But like I would often say, you got to get the top players.
Like, you got to get people. You just have to have a system that you have to sell.
And I thought, not like watching it, I wasn't sure that Louisville was.
Being marketed and framed the right way by the coaching staff.
Like to me, like, when I think about Louisville basketball, man, I think about some of the legendary coaches that have coached there. I think about that rivalry with Kentucky basketball, Like I think about top tier players that have played on that team that represents something bigger, and I just
never feel like Louisville had that presence. It always feel like Louisville was smaller with that staff and to me, now it feels like even though back to back losses, but like it just feels different, Like and I said that on air, Yeah, it's like the bibe around it even watching it, like it's like there's an error about it.
There's a there's a cockiness, there's a swagger to it, there's a there's like I'm not afraid to challenge you back, whereas those teams that I watched seemed timid and they seemed unsure, And that's not what Louisville basketball was to me.
Yeah, and and I think you you couldn't be more accurate when it comes to how the program was being sold and framed others, because you would think that a guy that you hired, that that played here what a national championship would would be able to maybe do that better than than than anybody. But for reasons that you know, I think there's a variety of reasons, it just didn't.
It didn't work out that way. And now you've got a guy who is who's who's going to either make it work here, he's going to die trying because he realizes this is a special program for a lot of the reasons that you just mentioned, and you know that that's refreshing. Louisville. Don't how goo they're going to be this year. They're dealing with a lot of injuries and you just don't know how things are going to go.
But this guy is clearly you know, making and you shouldn't need this as a fan base, but for him to continuously talk about how appreciative he is to be the coach at Louisville and how you know he's he's he's highlight. He's basically gassing us up. And we didn't used to need that, but we kind of do now, like because of what's happened in recent years. So you you talked highly of Pat Kelsey. What is your before
he was the coach at Louisville. How familiar were you with him and just kind of your thoughts on his his style as a coach.
Well, I've known Pat for a while.
One of the things I will say about Pat, just from a personal perspective and watching him over the years, is that like he is one of like, Look, I don't I don't want to use cliches right because a lot of well these guys are.
Competitive and their dogs. You gotta you have to understand how to be around the block.
Do you get what I'm saying Nick on that, Like, like I think that Kenney knew how to be from the block, but he never knew how to be around the block as a head coach. Different world, You moving, you moving seats, you moving a seat down or two seats.
It's a completely.
Different experience, right every day, Like I get this sometimes being on air, and I'm not comparing to being a.
Head coach of Louisville at all, but like there.
Are a lot of times I'm like, Okay, I'm trending, Like if somebody tell me I need to kill myself, if somebody tell me that I'm stupid, if somebody time I need to lose my job, Like you've got to be able to like kind of block all that craziness out.
Easier said than done. And also you got to know where bodies are buried, man, Like this ain't this isn't elementary school like and that that takes reps so for anybody, Like when you're trying to do that at a place where like your name was synonymous with being a champion and representing your school at a high level with not really knowing how to do that.
Like Pat knows how to do that.
Like Pat's built programs from the beginning, like like I watched it right, like I watched it his entire time, Like when College of Charlestoner is ranked top twenty five nationally, Like I've seen him build programs over time, and how he's been able to do that. He's done that by being around the block and being aperience as a head coach and forming the right staff and making sure the right staff knows how to raise some capitol and knows
how to get the white people on the door. It's just a different it's a different thing when you're in that seat.
Yeah, yeah, you're running the show. I mean you're you're the CEO essentially, and you got to have some presidential qualities about yourself. And there's a lot more to it that you probably don't like to do, but it's very important. And no, I think that makes that makes total sense. Jay Williams is our guest here joining us on Sports Talk seven ninety. So I do want to take the time we have with you to also address the Kentucky fans.
We are in Louisville, Kentucky, a big market for college basketball.
At Oh, you're hitting on both. You're hitting on both frunts right now that I like it.
Well, I'm just trying to catch up a little bit because I know that you mentioned something about Cooper Flag and just how he's going to continue. I mean, he's a guy that's going to bring more eyeballs to college basketball. He's probably the most hyped guy entering the college game since for a long time, maybe since Zion and that crew that came in some years ago. But give me the backstory what led to Kentucky fans getting so upset?
Because I I mean, I kind of caught up late, but I still didn't really understand what they were so mad about.
Well, you know, so it was funny we're doing the game.
Well, first of all, you know, fans only hear what they want to hear, of course, so you know, you know, while we're doing halftime of the game, I had said that I thought, which is which is accurate? So let me let me break down a couple of things. Number One, I said that, and I still do believe this way. I thought this was the most talented and the most depth that Duke has had since we won a national championship back in two thousand and one.
Right, and that goes over to fifteen team that won a chip.
Now, just because you have more talent doesn't mean that the talent is used the right way all the.
Time, righty fans more than anybody, right, Yeah, exactly right.
And it's the same thing with depth, right. You know you could have depth, but there are a lot of players in Duke's roster that get in play, right, So how you use depth talent doesn't always translate to a better team with better chemistry.
All those are different arguments with that, right.
So, but that comment within itself, I think it's accurate for the talent level of this Duke team and the.
Players that they have.
Doesn't mean they're gonna hold into a better team than Kentucky inevitably, or maybe they could, who knows.
It's a long season.
So I think a lot of people started kind of like coming back at me with like, oh, how's that most talented? How's that most dep team workout? Because look, at the end of the day, man, like, I'm always gonna be objective with my with my job and my team. Like I'm a fan of a lot of different schools, right, So, but I would say I'm also I played basketball Dukee.
But I'll tell you when I think Duke sucks. I'll tell you when I think they're good.
Like I don't try to sugarcoat anything just because I played basketball there, Like, I'm real. There have been times where I haven't been allowed to go back to Cameron Duror Stadium because Gray Allen was tripping people.
All the damn time. I'm like, really, stop tripping people.
Broke Oh, yeah, that was That was another intense moment, right, But I get it. But I'm always gonna do my job, and I'm almost gonna tell you honestly.
How I felt. So I think fans are triggered by that comment.
And also when that gets clipped and that goes on social media, like people don't have context around what it means.
People act a certain way.
That's one thing, right, So everybody started getting my mentions because of that. Secondly, the game is over and I'm on Sports Center right after the game, nick like literally seconds after the game.
Okay, So i go on Sports Center.
And I'm getting ready to make my comment about Kentucky. Now all my network, which I don't control, on a huge jumble screen behind me is a massive damn.
Picture of Cooper Flag.
So you can imagine in my mind just like your mom, like ah shit, here we go. Like I know what's gonna happen. I know the first question they're gonna ask me about is Cooper Flag because I've already seen it. I've seen it last year when he was playing high school basketball. How we started to sell him like and I'm sorry for going on on, but I just want.
To be real about it. Okay, what was the last like.
Incredible like player that we had to do us side of ZIGN also is like marketable, Like it's like Cooper Flag is somebody I know people are naturally gonna compare to Christian Latner JJ Reddick, Like you get where I'm going here with this with I'm saying, you know what I mean, like like, oh, he's gonna be the White Superstar and i'd've been living that world. I just had people come up to me and say that, and I'm like, I would not even frame it that way, but okay, I see how people are doing that.
What happened last year with Caitlin Clark versus Angel Reese.
Like it turned into a little bit at where it's like Magic Johnson Larry Bird like like, media can make people hate people or make people love people, but they're gonna market somebody that they think has an appeal that moves the needle. So like, come in and last year I knew that, and then the USA basketball, the way he played, I knew it was gonna be that situation. So right off the top of the show, I get asked by our Sports center host, So Jay, like, what
does this say about Cooper Flag. I cut her off and I say, I'm not here to talk about Cooper Flag. I'm giving credit to Kentucky basketball. Kentucky basketball, right, and I go into all the reasons why I think Mark Pope has done one hell of.
A job at UK bringing in dogs.
Now, granted, lost to Clemson in our night, but still like I I like the way this Kentucky team is constructed, right, So I give them credit for like two three minutes.
And then obviously you have to.
Go talk about Cooper Flag and about what you learned in the situation.
I saw, you know, having the ball multiple times, not.
In a position I felt like was to succeed for him, and how that played out.
Why I come off and I'm going back to raps and I have.
All these Kentucky fans coming at me, like, oh, you're going after you know you talk.
Of course you're talking about Cooper flag.
Blah blahah, like because most of the people, you know, if you're at a bar or you're you know, it's white noise in your back in your house, you're not really listening to what I'm saying. You're just seeing the visual and you're hearing me talk, right, So you see Cooper flag behind me. So like all these.
People started coming at me, I'm like, hold on a second.
Like I gave Kentucky all the love in the world, so I like to engage people. And I also think sometimes it's like, yo, if Kentucky had a player like Cooper, we'd be all over it. Now we can still gonna promote Kentucky basketball, but like the same way tonight Duke is.
Gonna play Auburn, like you're gonna get.
A high dosage volume doses a Cooper flag, whether you like or not.
So I just went on my social media and say, hey.
Look, I gave Kentucky love, but like here's marketing, here's how it's gonna happen.
You may like it, I'm sorry, but like this is the reality.
So like you could shut it up, shut people up, like win, go win a championship, please, But like this is how media works, unfortunately, and it's gonna be too exhaustion for people. Kentucky fans are gonna hate it because they're gonna find a way to talk about Cooper Flag regardless of whether Duke wins or loses a game.
Because it moves the needle.
I don't know why I'm not involved in data and analytics, but it's just what it is. I saw the same thing with Zion and I dealt with the hate. So I guess that just ruffled a lot of feathers in the long winded context way.
No, And I mean he's somebody that clearly, I mean, your employer or ESPN was well aware that this guy is going to bring more eyeballs to college basketball, which of course will market him even more so when he gets to the NBA, which of course ESPN and NBA have a great relationship together. So I mean, look what you said before that just what you prefaced with was the truth is that fans here what they want to hear.
You could have you could have done thirty five minutes just talking about Mark Pope and his offensive structure and how how great he is. But maybe one comment about Cooper flag and that's what would have probably triggered some people. So I know how it works. But Jay, real quick, I want to do a little bit of a rapid fire with you here because I know you've been very gracious with your time. You got a game to call Tony, But I'm going to give you a few questions here.
You just give me the first answer that comes to your mind.
You're ready, all right.
Best player you played against in college that didn't end up becoming like a big time name, didn't have a long NBA career, But somebody that you went up against, that you competed with, is you had a lot of respect for that. Maybe a lot of people don't remember or don't you know, don't don't know a lot about.
Jan Dixon played for Maryland, they win a championship, Like.
Steve Blake went to the league. I guess say Steve Blake too, but he played in the league for a long time. But like one was almost like a college version of Rip Hamilton.
That's a great question, And I got to ask you this real quick. This has nothing to do with it you could settle this. People tell me I look like Steve Blake. You've never seen me. I've got to pick. I've got my picture on Twitter. You have to look right now. But like you would be one. You're the one person who I know that is that has actually that probably knows Steve Blake, that's competed against him. So like I've you could be called worse than Steve Blake, but I've
been in denial. But lately, as I got older, I kind of feel like, you know, maybe that is somebody that I do kind of kind of look like, oh.
My god, Nick, I am on social media, but you do look like Steve Broke.
Yeah, I thought I thought so. Yeah, I thought so. I once I hit like thirty five, like it became like okay, now I kind of seised like I'll see a Stevey.
When did you let the hair go? When did you let it go? Oh?
I shaved it off. I shaved my head off whenever I was probably like twenty and then I just have kept it really short ever since I got a decent hairline. I'm not balding, but I'm the guy that like may one one day I'll try to like prove to people. I don't have the short hair because I needed to and then I won't be able to grow it back.
But yeah, I'll see those clips that people share of Steve Blake, like fighting people in practice or just like the highlight mixes from him in the NBA with the Lakers and Kobe, And I'm like, you know what, I kind of get why why people say that?
All right? I don't know if you. If you, if you made money like him and.
You're doing well, like I trust me, I've made no money like him, but maybe maybe one day. All right, So you mentioned Louis of basketball as far as all of the great coaches that have been here in the success. When you when you think of Louisville basketball, rather it be from when you were growing up, when they were having a great run in the eighties, maybe when you
were a player. Maybe since you've been an analyst, who's the first player that comes to mind for you when you think of Louis of basketball?
I mean, well, coach it always, I mean obviously any crumb, but obviously Rick Patino and then player. I always like I go to like when I was one, Like you know, one of the best parts about my job is I form relationships with so many guys, and one of the guys that was going through it during his time there was Donovan Mitchell. So what I'm thinking, like, I'm not talking about like longevity or like hey back in the eighties, Like obviously they're a ton of great players that played
at Louisville. But for me, I always go back to d Mitch because I watched him when he was like a slasher and when his confidence was down, and to see what he's turned into now, like in the type of player he is, like being like one of the best players in the league. It also made me appreciate Rick even more because like you know, last thing, I'll say, Nick, and I gotta get out of here, and I guess it.
The go break is like look man, like.
The way like media confram people as like cheaters.
And all the it's kind of like bullshit. I'm not even sure if I'm a lot of the cursing your show, but I'm doing it.
You did, and we've been able to use this magic button that that that that makes it to where yeah, it doesn't happen, and so you're good, go ahead.
I won't do it anymore.
But like like let's not act like crazy things don't go on in collegiate sports, like people are mad now because they feel like collegiate sports are getting professionalized. These things have gone on at a lot of places now. Whether they have you know, come to life or not is a different story. And I'm not saying everything happens everywhere, okay, But like I don't know, like I have not had one player or come up to me and ever say one negative thing about Rick Patino. So like I'm not
coming on your show backing anybody. I'm just telling you what I've heard from players over the years. So for me, like watching Rick build in my relationship with him, and then also like and Rick and I have been through it too, right with things I've said on TV, and we've had to work through those things. But like watching with Donnovan, to me, that that one always stands out because I don't I thought Donovan had talent. I didn't know he had that type of talent.
He's a better NBA player than he was in college.
I mean, I agree, I mean I but Rick always thought he had talent though, like next level talent, and I was always like, uh, I don't know, man, Rook's like, I'm trying to tell you, Jay, I think there's something different. And I was like, okay, like I hear you, but and I watch it now, I'm like, damn special.
Yeah, Jay, you are the man. I really appreciate you making time for us and having a lengthy conversation, good back and forth. Hopefully we can maybe do it again some other time. Keep up the great work and again appreciate you joining us.
Same to you, Brotheran. We'll talk to him there. Take care.
It's Jay Williams.
All right, Steve R. Steve Blake, Thanks man.
Well, hey, I can't run from that. I can't run from that good stuff. All right, quick break, we'll come back. Keep this thing rolling along. It's coffee and company. We are feel about Thornton's right here on Sports Talk seven ninety