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One of the philosophies we've always had and personally myself too is let's build as little as possible because the real MVP of the first product was really to find out, one, if people cared at all. And two, what angle they cared about, right? So I think that when you think of masterworks, We can clearly have two very obvious angles, right? Go to the art fanatics, people that know a lot about art, and pitch them the story of fractional ownership, democratizing of art. Or two, you can...
go to the more the alternative investment, diversify your portfolio, protect the downside with an asset class that's a real physical asset. My name is Alberto Simon, and I'm the co-founder and CPO of Masterworks. This is Code Story, a podcast bringing you interviews with tech visionaries. Six months moonlighting. There's nothing on the back end. Who share what it takes to change an industry. I don't exactly know what to do next. It took many goes to get right.
Who built the teams that have their back. The company is its people. The teams help each other achieve more. Most proud of our team. Keeping scalability top of mind. All that infrastructure was a pain. Yes, we've been fighting it as we grow. Total waste of time. The stories you don't know. You need to really want it. It's not just about technology. All this and more on Code Story.
I'm your host, Noah Labhart. And today, how Alberto Simon has enabled you to invest in the world of art in a fractional manner and outpacing the S&P. This episode is sponsored by Speak Easy. Grow your API user adoption and improve engineering velocity with friction-free integration experiences. With Speakeasy's platform, you can now automatically generate SDKs in 10 languages and Terraform providers in minutes. Visit speakeasy.com slash codestory and generate your first SDK for free.
This message is sponsored by QA Wolf. QA Wolf gets engineering teams to 80% automated end-to-end test coverage and helps them ship five times faster by reducing QA cycles from hours to minutes. With over 100 five-star reviews on G2 and customer testimonials from sales law... and AutoTrader, you're in good hands. Join the Wolf Pack at qawolf.com. Alberto Simon is an immigrant from Mexico, moving to Florida with his small family when he was very young.
He got interested in computers through gaming and building his own platforms. In college, he briefly studied mechanical engineering, but quickly switched over to MIS. And post that, he joined an ad tech startup, caught hold of the rocket, and built the professional skills he still utilizes today. But outside of tech, he enjoys dancing, specifically salsa and machata, and participates in CrossFit. For both things, he enjoys the challenge, working hard toward goals, and seeing progress.
Alberto and his co-founders had worked in the startup world for quite some time. They noticed the trends of platforms leading the charge on portfolio management without advisors. alongside the democratization of investments in things like real estate, crypto, etc. They decided to move forward in removing the opaqueness from investment in art. This is the creation story of Masterworks.
VastorWorks is an idea that Scott and I had talked about for a very long time. Me and Scott have worked on a variety of startups for a long time now, maybe for about over 10 years. One of the things that we always saw in the art world was how opaque it was. Obviously Scott has been pretty successful even much before I even knew him. So he already collected some art and originally it started in the times if you remember like 2017.
Really, the macro environment was one where, one, people had started to really invest into their own things, right? So whether it's Robinhood or Wealthfront or Betterment, really the trend had been, hey, maybe I don't need an advisor. Maybe I can invest my own money.
We know that the internet gives everybody the power to look into whatever they want, including crypto, including anything in real estate. And so Masterworks came from us seeing this idea that, oh, look, it looks like people are investing in crypto and these ideas and tokens and everything.
We started looking into the area more. We also saw that there was things like Fundrise, which let you invest in real estate in a fractional way. Gold had really become a thing as well, right? Like you didn't have to buy a whole bar of gold. So we just thought of this idea of saying, what if we built
and let people invest in these very popular paintings like Basquiat was being invested in by Jay-Z and all these very wealthy people invested in it. So that's where the original idea came from. I think that even going back to that time, it actually had a...
of crypto because at the time it seemed like a good way to make the technology more interesting and easier to get into obviously due to regulatory kind of concerns and just lack of clarity we removed that part but originally masterworks would have been like a better
auction model that I think Archie you've seen try to do. But ultimately we just said, oh, it looks more interesting allowing people to invest fractionally into multi-million dollar paintings and obviously very much like a long-term investments of other types like gold and real estate. When we sell them, you can get your part of the profits.
Let's dive into what you would consider the MVP for Masterworks, that first version of the product you and the team built. How long did it take to build and what sort of tools were you using to bring it to life? When it comes to startups, I think that one of the philosophies we've always had and personally myself too is let's build as little as possible because the real MVP of the first product was really to find out
one, if people cared at all, and two, what angle they cared about, right? So I think that when you think of masterworks, we can clearly have two two very obvious angles right go to the art fanatics people that know a lot about art and pitch them the story of fractional ownership democratizing of art or two you can go to the more the alternative investment diversify your portfolio, protect the downside with an asset class that's a real physical asset.
So the first MVP really was about getting people to show us interest, right? So that included a landing page, a page where people could sign up and give us their email. And that would be what I call the first MVP.
That really taught us a lot as far as, hey, what angle is going to work? What kind of marketing is going to work there? Once we felt comfortable with that version, that's when we built, let's call it the first technology MVP, right? And that included account create, that included reserving shares.
specific paintings that we had at the moment or future paintings that we would have. And then the only other part that I think was super critical is obviously we need to have a transaction ledger system, right? That's going to... It's going to account for the number of shares that are in a painting so we can start to make that real. And we've always believed that an internal admin tool that's really powerful and allows us to
So you can make all kinds of changes in the backend without affecting the users is super critical. So that was the components that really mattered there. So I want to stay on the MVP for just a little bit. And I hear some decisions you had to make on, okay, we're going to build the admin. panel so you can make changes behind the scenes that don't affect the users.
Tell me about a trade-off you had to make in how you were building that early product, right? Building early products, it's just full of trade-offs, right? Tell me about one or two that really shaped the product moving forward.
Yeah, a huge trade-off at the very beginning for the MVP specifically was like, look, I think that the easiest path to building a landing page and kind of your first web page is maybe you use a WordPress, maybe you use kind of something out of the box and you get that up and spun up really fast.
Very quickly, we realized we think we totally need full control of this to be able to do designs that maybe are outside the box that aren't going to fit into a mold that we don't want to have to always hire a WordPress developer. How difficult those guys are to find or those folks are to find. So we very quickly decided on going on this Node.js journey where we made our own front-end page.
We picked Node.js because, again, it's easier to find developers that want Node.js, so that already means they know some of the backend, right? Node.js being a very JS-heavy backend framework, along with React, which obviously was something that goes really well. also picking a technology like GraphQL to allow us this freedom to not always have to make versions that are different and points that are very different.
And I think that played a huge part because we did quickly realize that our product isn't totally easy to fit into a box. And I think having this initial... trade-off that yes it took us a little bit more time to spin up our original first page and sign up and all that And ultimately, we're super glad that we're not like many of these startups that rely on WordPress and then have to struggle through that phase later where they're trying to migrate over to a more proper front end stack.
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Wait, is that our financial statements on the internet? My dev partner has great communication. They can acknowledge an issue or email message super fast after they run it through Google Translate, of course. I have a call set up with my partner right now. Hey, guys. Guys, are you there? Wait did you just ghost me? Ever been in these situations?
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So then from that point, right, you've got the MVP, it's working, you made the hard choices. How did you progress the product from there and mature it? I think to wrap it in a box a little bit. how you built your roadmap, how you went about deciding, okay, this is the next most important thing.
to build or to address with Masterworks. Because of this ad tech background, right, a lot of our initial decisions on the tech side and product side were really about saying, how do we now take these users that are interested?
and really close them. A lot of our efforts at the beginning were not really to do with the user experience post-investing. It was all about getting you to finalize your first investment. So if you think about it, it was really like a combination of a typical sales funnel for people that are
trying to sell courses or do things like that. And this is how we thought about it. We said, look, when it comes to investing, one of the challenges we saw with our other products when we do competitive research was how difficult it felt to understand what I was really getting into.
So one of the things we really did, and I think that made a huge difference at the beginning, was we really thought of it as like an Amazon shopping flow versus like an investment platform flow. So yes, we obviously knew there had to be disclaimers and all kinds of things.
as the legal components were a huge part of the product. We did take a very aggressive style to the funnel part. So a lot of it was saying like, look, we have now a thousand people that have shown interest in specific paintings. Now let's see how many steps we can get them down the funnel. Can we get them to give us their personal information so that we can do the KYC and AML? Can we get them to add a payment method? So we quickly integrated Plaid and Tuwalla, even though we technically
didn't have a painting legally ready to take money into. We wanted to see if they would do that next step. We also built a custom agreement step. So typically people might use like a DocuSign and all these other... things that already exist. Those seem very heavy, so maybe people won't do that, so we built that stuff. so we really built this funnel right we said look we want people that by the time we actually have a painting to sell them officially
they are like one button press away from getting this done. And I think that's how we based on roadmap, right? Like at the beginning, it was all about this funnel, the sales funnel, because we did have to wait, I would say a very long time considering what other products might have to wait because of the SEC and FINRA having to approve our first couple of paintings that we had to sell. Did you run into any issues with like, if people signed up and did all the steps, but then...
Or did you have a quick enough turnaround on that first piece of art that people weren't leaving? That's a great point. I wish we didn't have that issue. But you know what? That's one of the learnings that we took away from that phase, which is also incredibly important. And we actually ended up doing a very, let's call it. non-expected sales funnel move.
So one of the things we noticed that a lot of people were interested because it sounded cool and it was new, they hadn't heard of this kind of thing. But of course, when we actually got to the part where they would actually have to give money, we did see that kind of a sub-responding, lack of interest kind of thing.
So one of the things that we tested on very early in that phase was let's start calling some people. Let's hire a couple of salespeople, interns, and let's get them on the phone because we do feel like, hey, just like any product, right? When you don't have the ability to collect the funds right away, there is that chance that they're just
and we really learned right away that when it came to investing in something that they didn't truly understand like art we learned one that most people don't know more than three to five artists period and actually most of those artists are not necessarily the best ones to invest in We learned that and we also learned that, hey, when it comes to money, people still seem to have some comfort with talking to someone, right?
We actually tested both of those things by hiring some people early on to make calls and we built a bunch of tools around allowing them to do that really efficiently. We ended up actually changing our funnel to be this kind of membership.
funnel right like instead of you just being able to do it on your own whenever you want you actually are forced in a way to talk to us right so tell us your goals tell us what you're looking to achieve with these investments and hopefully close that deal on the phone
So I'm curious about team, right? Masterworks is a beautiful, big platform, and there's lots of intricate pieces. There's regulation, all that sort of stuff. You got to have the right people on board to build something like this. Tell me about how you built that. team and what do you look for in those people to indicate that they were the winning horses to join you?
One of the lucky things I consider for this venture is that we were actually part of WeWork at the time where I felt like WeWork still had that original mission that they had, which was to kind of like bring people together that are doing things and then collaborating as a... than that result and we were actually part of WeWorks where that was the case and one of the
quick wins we got from WeWork even at a previous venture is that I posted for another venture that we had said, we're looking for some engineers. And we ended up connecting with some people through that. And one of the things that we ended up being really lucky for is that obviously we met some people that even though our previous
previous ventures didn't quite work out. We had the start of a solid team there. One of the things that I always look for when it comes to engineers is this lack of ego, like willingness to explore, but at the same time, balance, not using all the cutting edge stuff, but like being able to take the latest version of things and making them work really fast. So I would say that as far as the team goes, the early start was our four engineers at the beginning.
were those people, right? Like they were back end and front end, like knowledgeable and probably not like amazing at either one, but clearly could deliver these MVPs or POCs really fast and help us figure out what made sense and what didn't. This episode is sponsored by Speakeasy. Whether you're growing the user adoption of your public API or streamlining internal development, SDKs can turn the chore of API integration into effortless implementation.
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Now, I'm curious about scalability. Did you build this to scale efficiently from day one or with scale in mind, right, to where you could adapt quickly? Or have there been interesting areas where you had to fight it as you grew? So one of the things was, that we do have obviously experience building things on clouds. There's a lot of...
things we did plan for and saying, hey, look, if we set it up on AWS, we know that we're going to be able to either scale it horizontally or vertically as we need as far as that goes. But I will be honest, on the actual code base side, No, I would say we took a monolithic approach at the beginning.
And again, not to say that we didn't have plans to be able to turn that into microservices, which we have over the years. But certainly at the beginning, one of the things that changed really fast was like, what did it need to do versus what it... So I think I mentioned to you that at the beginning, there was a crypto component. So as you can imagine, that tech stack was way different, right?
like these nodes running for Ethereum to spin up these things and accept crypto and all that. Clearly, that didn't really matter at some point. So we deprecated that and moved on. But yeah, no, I would say that we took the approach of saying, look, we'll build this kind of monolithic system and we will upgrade it as we go with kind of like guardrails right so we're like hey we still could give a trend of saying
On good days when we do marketing, how many people are visiting the site? How many people are doing this and that? But you know how it is. Scale is typically like either millions and millions or at least a million or something. Okay, as you step out on the balcony and you look across all that you've built with Masterworks, what are you most proud of? If you look at our competitors of similar kind of products, we've always done this with a very like ragtag mix of a small team.
And I think that not only that has become a lot more popular nowadays, I think in the last two or three years again, this kind of like a founder mode that people talk about, like this accountability, but... We've always stood up to any kind of team that may have been kind of
That's something that we're very proud of. And I think that the second thing would be that a lot of the feedback that we hear from the tech side is people just tell us how easy the platform is. And you can tell that it was made by someone that was trying to get away from like how typical. investing platforms are. And that's all thanks to the team.
It's made my job super easy when a lot of our teammates are the ones suggesting tweaks or things that are going to be faster for the user. So every single person on our team really has this buy-in, this accountability, and they joined us on this journey and have always been...
that process. And for my part, I've always been super transparent, whether it's like, hey, look, this is not working or this part of the business isn't. This is where we're going to change it completely. Explain to the team why something that may have taken two months to build is now completely useless and we're going to move on.
But I think that's really helped create this really strong bond between the team. And probably the thing I'm most proud of is those two things, like the small team that we've built that is full of rock stars. And two, that the feedback we get is one, like you're saying, where they're like, oh, wow, this is cool and it works. really well and people don't know how small the team was building it.
Tell me about a mistake you made and how you and your team responded to it. One of the first early mistakes we made was focusing a lot of the product on the art angle, right? So look, I think that when it comes to art, I think that we initially thought, hey, like certainly people are...
care about the painting themselves. They're going to want to see that highlighted. And we saw a lot of competitors do that. One of the issues that it led to was one was technical and two was business, right? One on the technical side, it looked loading high, what's it called, size images.
very high-res things just leads us slower performance and i think that when you're selling something one of the things you quickly notice is that speed of your site to load is hugely important very early on when we were taking this angle we had performance that i think we're definitely not proud of and And I think that was part of that issue. And two, on the other side, it just led to a thing where most of the people that had the funds to invest in something like art,
To be honest, they didn't totally care or know that much about the art. It led to this kind of like dual issue of performance on the website and product itself, but also just like a lack of closing ability for the sales. So I think that's something that we would have definitely double checked a little bit, double clicked a little bit more on our early research.
I think that maybe we got too excited about the art part, being the fact that we're fans of art. And, you know, at some point you learn too much about something and then you forget that nobody's going to match that. But that's an early part that we would have.
changed. I think probably the second one would be, look, this crypto thing sounded interesting, but we definitely pushed that farther along than we should have in the early stages. And that did obviously lead to some time delays on the product. We actually ended up being able to
to move forward with. So that's something that we would have definitely built in a more proof of concept type way. I think that it was a tricky decision at the time because when it comes to crypto development, the testing environment is not very good. We should probably spend more time building it out correctly. Let's move forward then. Masterworks is established. It's a well-known, well-used product. But what does the future look like for the platform, for you, for all of the things?
Look, I think that when it comes to Masterworks, I think that one of the biggest advantages we've had is that we have an interesting product that I think people are generally curious about. And at this point, we've done so much marketing that most people have heard of us.
I think that now what we're really trying to bridge the gap on as far as the platform itself, which includes like the website and also the product, but also just from a marketing and business perspective is turning curiosity into intent into sales. Let's use an example of speaking of crypto, like a company that has done an amazing job of that, which is Coinbase.
They very early on identified that, look, even if people find this interesting, to get them to do something, there's this education component to it. I think that one of the biggest initiatives we have is trying to build something along these lines. We help people understand why art is actually a good investment. Maybe for them, maybe not for them, but at the very least that there's that opportunity.
And two, help people find out about it that aren't the ones that have seen our ads, right? I think we have a huge amount of outbound efforts that we're doing now when it comes to not only from building the technology to allow this outbound effort to work well. But really like reaching out that next phase of people. I think we've had a lot of interest just naturally, but of course now we're reaching some of the boundaries of that.
And that's like where I think the future of the platform lies. And I think we're seeing some early signs of success there. But yeah, that's the biggest challenges. I do think that the third challenge is, look, I think all of us always, the build companies always say, this company doesn't succeed because it's too big.
But then it happens to all of us. I think growing a company and attracting talent that is going to be the ones that take you to the next stages is incredibly hard. So we're all as a management team and leadership team trying to get better at it, right?
Speaking for myself, I'm very good at managing almost everything that I have right now, right? But of course, this micromanagement kind of runs its course at some point. You bring in these people that should be able to take over some of these initiatives. You have to trust them. And that's a learning process. I think that's probably what, you know, divides some people that are much better at small startups versus companies like Mark Zuckerberg famously is apparently very good at all of it.
Or he has become very good at all of it. So I think a lot of the leadership team is trying to cross that gap to become a great leader for a bigger company and kind of allowing it to reach the next stages. Let's switch to you, Alberto. Who influences the way that you work? Name a person or many persons or something you look up to and why.
When I was younger, I always had this idea that you mostly hear in high school that you should try to find a mentor or something specifically like that. One of the things I found is that a lot of the mentors that I do have wasn't like one person teaching me something. Ended up being this group of people that kind of did two things, right? One, they saw something in me and believed in, like...
some work quality that I showed them or personal quality that allowed them to give me the opportunity to show them that I could do something. And two, would always be there if, you know, I made a mistake and I came to them and explained to them what happened and they had like... very concise advice or maybe a recommendation of a book or something.
So I would say it's probably more of a group of people that I really use to be able to touch base with and really have like blood conversations about what may be going on with something I'm doing, something I'm trying to do. A lot of the people that I've worked with, I've been lucky enough to still have a good relationship with. And a lot of my managers in the past or just peers have really been a big part of that.
And I'm also like a huge consumer of reading books and podcasts. I've become really popular and really trying to fit those things into my personality. I think that one of the things that I'm really happy about in my career is that. I can truly tell people that like the way I am at work is
is actually seeped into the way I am in my personal life, in my family life, and vice versa, right? So I think I feel extremely lucky that's how I can be. And I think that people have come to know me that way. So when they give me feedback... It's extremely like direct and I appreciate that. And, you know, that continues to drive me forward. And there's many areas where I can, you know, improve in and continue to do so.
Alberto, last question. So you're getting on a plane and you're sitting next to a young entrepreneur who's built the next big thing. They're jazzed about it. They can't wait to show it off to the world and can't wait to show it off to you right there on the plane. What advice do you give that person? Having gone down this road a bit.
The most important thing I would tell them is find the right partners, right? Whether that's an advisor, whether that's a co-founder. I think one of the things that I know definitely would not have been possible for any of the things that I've achieved is doing it on my own. You see a lot of temptation nowadays to maximize your cap table or limit how much power other people may have on your idea.
But there's two things I always tell young co-founders or people that are trying to build something is one, ideas are truly not that original. I think that the same people have thought of the same idea multiple thousands of times. And two, ideas only improve when you're willing to be vulnerable, put them out there to a founder, to somebody that has the power to change your mind on things. And I think a lot of my best ideas and best work for sure.
has been only possible due to having the right partners around me, the right feedback. And that's one bit of advice that I think I would give any young person, no matter how early they are and how great their idea is. is seek that person that's going to be able to oppose your ideas on a day-to-day basis and kind of evolve them and make them better because
Yes, there's risks, but the benefits are far going to outweigh the risks of that. That's fantastic advice. Well, Alberto, thank you for being on the show today. Thank you for telling the creation story of Masterworks. Of course, you're welcome and happy to have been on the show. And this concludes another chapter of Code Story.
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