Art Costa & Bob Garmston

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Unknown
In recent education circles, we have separated out the actions, the emotions and the cognition, the thinking that goes on inside our heads. And I think that's a somewhat of a false dichotomy.

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Unknown
You can't separate them. There is no thinking without emotion. There's no action without thinking.

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Unknown
And so the three of the actions that we take, the emotions that we feel and the thinking this goes on in our heads are all interrelated.

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Unknown
Hi everyone. It's ICG consultant Jessica Wise, host of the Coaching Questions on the Coaching Conversations podcast with Jimmy right here to talk about our virtual workshop titled System Support What Administrators Need to Know. We know that the impact coaches have is directly related to how effectively they are supported or not supported by their administrators. For that reason, it is crucial that administrators participate in professional development.

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Unknown
That clarifies what coaches do and how they can be supported. Our virtual workshop system support will provide administrators with everything they need to know about instructional coaching. Join us to learn about the partnership principles that guide coaches interactions with teachers. The six specific actions administrators can take to support coaches effectively. The five Simple Truths of Helping and more.

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Unknown
Join us or learn more by visiting Instructional Coaching icon.

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Unknown
One of my favorite parts of the teaching learning coaching conference is the Don Daschle Leadership Award. The Don Daschle Leadership Award is something I created to honor my friend, my mentor, my boss, my advisor. Don Dazzler. Don was the director of the center for Research on Learning for decades. inspired me as a teacher and as a researcher.

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Unknown
Taught me a lot about how to be an educational researcher. He taught me more about how to be a good person and honestly think, aside from my wife, he's probably the person that had the most positive influence on my life. And, we created this award to honor people like Don, people whose influence on me was so great that I wouldn't be who I am, doing what I do if it wasn't for those people.

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Unknown
And

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Unknown
and in 2024, the award winners were Art Costa and Bob Grimson, who have had a profound impact not just on me, but on tens of thousands of educators and coaches around the world. If you are a coach or if you work with coaches, probably what you're doing wouldn't be going the way it's going now if it had not been for Art and Bob, who paved the way for coaches around the world, and they've worked in every continent except Antarctica and everywhere I go, I mean people influenced by these two people who are brilliant.

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Unknown
Art brings the cognitive part, Bob brings the coaching part. And I learned that in our conversation when we went to went to, Sacramento to meet Art and Bob giving the award, we sat down. We had one of the best conversations I've had in years. I loved hearing about how the ideas developed, how they work together, how they collaborated, what they disagree on, what they agree on.

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Unknown
This podcast is going to give you a little bit of the flavor of the conversation where we met to talk about the the under four Leadership Award and my honor of awarding, Art Costa and Bob Guernsey.

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Unknown
So Art and Bob, why don't you tell us who you are for those 2 or 3 people out there who may not know who you are?

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Unknown
I am Bob Gibson. being interviewed along with my colleague ARD Costa, and I'm Mark caso being interviewed with my colleague Bob Grimson. You copied me, didn't you? I love it, sorry. I have a weird sense of you're.

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Unknown
I began in education, teaching in a rural school. I have 42 first graders. and I had a principal at that school. Howard Keel, I think his name was. That was very, very clever, very influential.

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Unknown
He was a a person that didn't tell you what to do or show you what to do. Example is that we were having conversation in the in the faculty room one day and, he says, you know, Bob, you're working in a very conservative community. A lot of these people are in, in, in here, and they expect, someone of authority to wear a tie.

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Unknown
Now, I'm not suggesting to you in any way that you do that, but you figured out some thought.

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Unknown
and, I have been pursuing, a career in education for many, many, many years. my master's and my doctorate from University of California and Berkeley. I have work with schools around the world, and I hope that as a result of my efforts, I've gotten them to be a little bit more thoughtful.

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Unknown
And teachers, a more, compassionate person as they deal with kids. I have great faith in the future, based on the students that I see today who are, curious, who are insightful, and who are and are more humane than I have ever seen before. I think that there's a feeling of kindness that is sweeping our next generation, and that's very reassuring to me that maybe we played some role in building that generation of thoughtfulness and kindness.

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Unknown
So the first question is what are your hopes and fears for education in the future?

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Unknown
What are the ways we're talking about? Is right that I hope it survives as a public entity. That is, supported fiscally, politically. And,

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Unknown
That school faculties collaboratively.

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Unknown
develop more.

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Unknown
More agency or efficacy? More decision making. Right now, the whole thing is pretty top down,

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Unknown
and we know enough about, collective efficacy. We know that when that is generated, we get really sound results for kids and others.

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Unknown
Right. I would agree with that. And I would hope that we could make a deeper and stronger impact, through education on developing, thinking individuals. the mind is worth attending to in schools. So teaching kids to think, not how to think and not what to think. But, what are the processes that you go through to make decisions that we learn to communicate to students in cognitive ways?

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Unknown
I would like to hear more cognitive language in schools, such as comparing and contrasting and inferring. I think the more I think the instruction should focus more on metacognition, not only what you think, but, how you think. And, making sure that you're self-monitoring as well as conscious of, the ways you can go about improving yourself so the kids grow up with a deeper locus of control within themselves that I know how to think, I know how to think well, and I know how to deal with controversy so that, kids become more powerful thinkers as a result of education

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Unknown
or realize art, as you say, that what comes to mind is that

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Unknown
the goals for education, the broader goals for education, have been set a couple of times. way back. Similar in the 1800s. Yep.

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Unknown
Goals were to train people, train kids so they could be obedient factory workers. As we're stating in, then emphasis has shifted from time to time. over the decades. And what I hear you say is that it's time for a brand new total reassessment of the role of schools.

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Unknown
And that role are to focus on things that empower students, and, increase their capability to achieve what they want to achieve.

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Unknown
My hopes are that through education, we can create a more thoughtful. Loving and peaceful world. And. That through the work of wonderful teachers who meet with kids daily, they can carry this message to the students who will be the citizens of the future. So I have great hope in the future for my own kids and for all of them, that the world is indeed a more peaceful and loving place.

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Unknown
I have a fear that's political. And I hope that's not the political part. Is that, there are many forces in the country that want to move us away from public schools and to private schools, and I believe that part of that motivation in many quarters, part of that motivation is so that, those schools can tell kids what to think rather than the, public school system, which is attempting to broaden people thinking

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Unknown
and help them be critical. So, that's that's a theory that I have. It's an external force on education. a hope that I have is that two major issues could be resolved. The first is student attention span. What we're learning is that, as one author put it, they have the attention span of a goldfish. and, you'll see that all around you see, in classrooms, of course.

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Unknown
and the dominant thing that's, that's pulling them away is, social media. and I guess TV and things like that. But that lack of ability to attend. And this is true for adults, too. We are losing our capacity for sustained attention. I think that's very, very serious deficit. And I would like to find some ways that we can modify and change the direction of that.

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Unknown
The other hope is that.

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Unknown
Can. We can do something that helps schools be more balanced. Healthier places can in particular. I'm thinking about the damage that kids come to schools with in their heads. And, that damage is, often attributed to, social media. I don't know whether it's all fair, but we see kids more depressed, more self-critical, more long, than we have in the past, and that many of those cases lead to suicide.

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Unknown
that's a deep, deep stain on us. And is this is, however, a stain in many ways. I've heard that there are entire school systems, so I think Seattle might be one of them that have passed some legislation or rules in your area that limit, social media companies for doing Xyzzy. and that, we desperately need legislation heading that direction.

00:14:17:17 - 00:14:33:22
Unknown
when? Sorry. I've heard. Is that the, social media people know that a clampdown is coming. So I do want to make as much money as possible and to grow things so hopes and fears.

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Unknown
So my second question is to take you out of your cognitive thinking framework and ask you about advice. I know you're not. Neither one of you is advice givers, but what advice would you give to educators, including administrators, teachers, coaches? Counselors? All people uneducated?

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Unknown
What advice would you give to educators?

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Unknown
A heck of a question. I'll have our talk so I can copy what he says. Well,

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Unknown
I think we need to pay more attention. As you've probably already heard us say. Pay more attention to what's going on inside kids heads when they learn. So understanding more and more about how the brain works.

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Unknown
And as you well know, we've made tremendous strides in understanding our brains. and and the relation, and our relationship to studying and learning and, communicating with others. So those are the tools that we use daily. And we need to spend more time focusing on those tools of communication, tools of thinking, tools of interacting with others.

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Unknown
because, our focus on content alone, has changed over the years.

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Unknown
Instead of looking at encyclopedias today, look for we look at artificial intelligence. so we the world's knowledge is already, at our fingertips. What we need is to teach how we make sense out of all of that. How do we think about it? How do we incorporate it into our meaning and our lives?

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Unknown
So,

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Unknown
I'd like to, as a teacher, spend more time on what goes on in your head when you're learning what goes on in your head when you're thinking, and what goes on in your head when you're having emotions both positive and negative. So the kids are more thoughtful and self-directed of and thought, self-directed in their thoughtfulness.

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Unknown
I'm glad you got an emotion at the end.

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Unknown
when art talks about cognition and a cognitive focus, he is not excluding emotion. No, no, negative emotion is part of part of those complex processes.

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Unknown
And,

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Unknown
I'm just trying to my experiences with students and, there are such strong emotional needs sometimes that are they are off putting for the teacher and that teacher, teachers in general can be supported in managing their emotions. And I'll mention one tiny example is about going to the balcony. when once in a conversation, you're upset. if you go to the balcony and look at yourself and the other person, you still have the feelings, but they do not direct you.

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Unknown
Now, you're free for now, and you can manage, say what's what's appropriate. Say in a reasonable way. So that's one of a billion things that we could learn. Yeah, I, I think,

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Unknown
In recent education circles, we have separated out the actions, the emotions and the cognition, the thinking that goes on inside our heads. And I think that's a somewhat of a false dichotomy.

00:18:58:00 - 00:19:05:19
Unknown
You can't separate them. There is no thinking without emotion. There's no action without thinking.

00:19:05:19 - 00:19:14:16
Unknown
And so the three of the actions that we take, the emotions that we feel and the thinking this goes on in our heads are all interrelated.

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Unknown
So we have to look at that as a triad, more than one or the other. not that one.

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Unknown
Well, I think the

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Unknown
we're finding out more and more that our actions and our cognition and our emotions are and entwined with each other. But what comes to mind is you say that is the question I have. What is it that would bring communities along and families alone to be able to support such a rational idea? I'm sure by calling it radical.

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Unknown
so we know that, support training community or for negative pressure from the community. impacts what pupils do or what teachers do and say.

00:20:09:10 - 00:20:47:19
Unknown
Well, one advice. Piece of advice would be to become continuous learners among continuous learners so that you're modeling as a learner. could you could you create a model for others to follow? And so whether it be through professional development, advanced courses, reading, coaching, whatever means that you demonstrate your desire to be a continuous learner.

00:20:47:21 - 00:20:53:06
Unknown
And, others will follow that model. I hope.

00:20:53:07 - 00:21:15:20
Unknown
Oh, I know, listen how it's going to come out. Well, the piece of advice that I might give, is never give up. it is the quality of, resilience that helps many, children grow to a productive childhood.

00:21:15:22 - 00:21:58:13
Unknown
it is, that resilience and agency that, schools and teachers need, to be able to free themselves, and I. This just has to be a collective thing. Freedom shells from, ancient curriculum spans higher science, higher social studies, Israel, somatic cells, English and language. And, again, to focus partially on that, but also just as much on the development of efficacy and the development of agency.

00:21:58:15 - 00:22:17:08
Unknown
And so that, in fact, is, Art and I are working with a group from around the country that we call Project Efficacy, and we're exploring, yes, what might needs to happen, for those to become, folk guy or educator.

00:22:17:08 - 00:22:25:21
Unknown
What can you say about the impacts your colleague has had on you? Our house, Bob, had an impact on you. Bob, how is art had an impact on you?

00:22:25:21 - 00:22:43:02
Unknown
I think the greatest impact that Bob has had on me is, And continuous learning. He is a continuous learner, and I think that's rubbed off some on me.

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Unknown
I find that I just understand one of his new ideas, and all of a sudden he's coming up with another one. So he keeps me hopping and, has been a wonderful growth relationship that we've had over the years. So I appreciated that greatly. For me, I know that I'm a, much better person, well-rounded person from knowing and working with arc.

00:23:18:02 - 00:23:57:09
Unknown
he, comes embodying, the sage to sage to buy the, Yeah. Say to my, which are very, very positive, qualities and qualities that would be nice for us all to aspire to. I am, more random. I'm more impressionable. I more fun, started. so I'm not as, you want to say we're well contained?

00:23:57:09 - 00:24:07:17
Unknown
I don't know where it is. I'm not. yeah, I think I think I'm not as mature ever. And, so that's where I get from him.

00:24:07:17 - 00:24:44:14
Unknown
for one, he has expanded my curiosity. He has built on humor. he has, he has been a continuous learner as a model for me. And so together, we are co learners in many different ways. I think Bob has, And contributed to my.

00:24:44:16 - 00:25:24:13
Unknown
I guess I would call it, my ability to bounce back. both of us have gone through periods of extreme frustration and, and disappointment, as well as success and how to learn from both the successes and the disappointments and become better people is something that, Bob has taught me, or at least has been, called confident in that process.

00:25:24:15 - 00:25:33:00
Unknown
I'm deeply indebted to him for his friendship and his knowledge and his persistence.

00:25:33:19 - 00:26:15:10
Unknown
it's hard to think of, the right phrase to open it. And knowing art has totally been life changing. his impact in part on me is the joy of being able to work with someone who's curious and is pursuing intellectual things, art bottles carefully or consistently. his gratitude. his, concern, his love, his skill.

00:26:15:12 - 00:26:45:11
Unknown
one of the things that Art does that I'm envious of is that he can talk and whole paragraphs, for it comes out a little different. I think to some, art is an unusual figure in any setting or any, any era. And I'm very fortunate to be this close to him and to be able to learn from him and to laugh with him.

00:26:45:11 - 00:26:54:07
Unknown
What do you think's been the secret to your 40 year collaboration? You work together. You said we talk to each other every other day.

00:26:54:07 - 00:27:06:05
Unknown
Pretty much on the phone. Use you interview each other every week. for decades. You're beating most marriages. So, what's the secret to that collaboration?

00:27:06:05 - 00:27:39:20
Unknown
Well, I'm sure that part of it is the mutual learning that it takes place with us. one, area is about emotional balance, and, art has much more emotional balance than I do. and an example of the an example of where I can learn to do with art is, the two of us, we're having a meeting with two of the colleagues a year or so ago.

00:27:39:22 - 00:28:03:18
Unknown
we had a two day meeting. We're sitting in a place like this. And on reflection, I realized that I was being a jerk. and I wasn't paying attention, and I was making jokes, and I was challenging and appropriately. And, on the way home that night as I. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Who do I want to be?

00:28:03:20 - 00:28:37:18
Unknown
The question who I want to be is lovely for I want to be over. So it's a 1 or 2. Well, we listen, they pay attention, etc., etc.. So that's, Because of art groundedness and because of what we collectively know about emotion and cognition, that's been a great service to me. I think, Bob has helped me learn so many new ways.

00:28:37:18 - 00:29:18:17
Unknown
For example, I never, never even heard of rapport, didn't know what it was. But Bob introduced me to that. And that opened up a whole new realm of consciousness for me. And that's just one example. I think, the other thing Bob did for me was to enhance my, understanding of body language and, what that means and how it should be interpreted.

00:29:18:19 - 00:29:31:07
Unknown
I never knew that before. And so he has been a source of great learning and benefit to me in that way.

00:29:31:09 - 00:29:34:12
Unknown
He also he also likes me that

00:29:34:12 - 00:29:40:14
Unknown
Well, it seems like you don't take each other too seriously. Now, there's this mutual respect, but there's a lot of joy there

00:29:40:14 - 00:30:09:15
Unknown
right, well, I want to say something about, right now we are. Now, this is copyrighted with us, so don't steal it. We are working on a little project called Project Efficacy, and we feel very strongly that the coaching process is way too cognitive.

00:30:09:17 - 00:30:15:11
Unknown
Now, that sounds a little bit low and better than ever. but

00:30:15:11 - 00:30:46:01
Unknown
how do you bring a little bit of levity, a little bit of humor into the coaching process? And, we are contemplating, having the many coaches that we have trained or influence to bring in some humor. what was the most humorous coaching experience you've ever had?

00:30:46:03 - 00:31:04:17
Unknown
And, Murray, you've been developing a kind of a laugh meter. to see which is the funniest and recognizing that and, building, a corner in the coaching process for having some fun.

00:31:04:17 - 00:31:20:15
Unknown
It's not all that serious. And so, it's not only that, it's not serious, but it's also a way of building trust. When you can laugh, when you can have people laugh at you and with you.

00:31:20:17 - 00:31:35:02
Unknown
That's a trust building experience. And so, I think that the increase in humor in the coaching process is a valid territory to explore and to expand.

00:31:35:02 - 00:32:03:08
Unknown
And as you said, an unusual insight was that I don't think we should be calling it coaching. I think we should call it being together because we work hard. And I observe with people that our skill coaches is that they're having a conversation with one another, and informally, they're using the skills for inquiry and intrigue and what have here.

00:32:03:10 - 00:32:29:21
Unknown
I think a Laura Lipton, for example. Yep. hard to have conversation with South Florida, with Laura without, her. oh. Why is that important to you? You know, so so, yeah, I actually I say that facetiously, but actually what we call coaching as a way of being with others, I think is a nice concern.

00:32:29:21 - 00:32:30:22
Unknown
Yes, I've heard

00:32:30:22 - 00:32:45:09
Unknown
It was really my sincere honor to be able to come and give you the Donna for a leadership award. Don profoundly influenced my life. Just like you profoundly influenced my life. I'm wondering what went through your mind when you heard that you've been recognized in this way.

00:32:45:23 - 00:33:14:09
Unknown
Well, I, I, I was deeply moved and deeply honored for a couple of reasons. One is that I hold Jim in very high esteem. And for him to pick me or us or me as a awardee, as a person deserving that award was. That's just a compliment in itself, even without the plaque. So,

00:33:14:09 - 00:33:31:11
Unknown
I'm deeply indebted to Jim for not only the award, but also I've quoted him and referred to him and read his articles in his columns whenever possible.

00:33:31:13 - 00:34:03:23
Unknown
and so I've, hold I've held him in high admiration for a long time. And so to have this award awarded by Jim was, beyond the award, but honored because of Jim. And through him, my initial reaction, it was several fold. What is this? I didn't understand any part of the richness, that Jim shared with us today.

00:34:04:01 - 00:34:13:20
Unknown
And that's origin and background. And,

00:34:13:22 - 00:34:40:03
Unknown
always a question that runs through my mind. if he's asking for a presentation or something. what do I have to say? This should value it anywhere it. And, third.

00:34:40:04 - 00:34:42:20
Unknown
Thing honored. Special. Yeah.

00:34:42:20 - 00:34:46:19
Unknown
that says great guns. I mean, anything else you'd like to say?

00:34:46:19 - 00:34:56:02
Unknown
yeah. Well, yes, I've added a new repertoire to my coaching pattern. It's. Anything else like that?

00:34:56:02 - 00:35:05:16
Unknown
What else? Yes, I would like to share.

00:35:05:18 - 00:35:46:11
Unknown
And that's our hope for education. Is that we find a way of focusing on the children that are in dire circumstances. not to save them, but to help them to develop the resilience that they need to be able to, perform and get on with life. And, to me, that's, critical value and, in which you can serve.

00:35:46:11 - 00:35:48:10
Unknown
Certainly. Okay.

00:35:48:11 - 00:36:14:08
Unknown
Well, first of all, I want you to know the, how deeply honored and appreciative I am of being recognized. I guess, I guess down deep inside, all of us have a certain degree of pride, and it's nice to be recognized.

00:36:14:10 - 00:36:57:12
Unknown
It's nice when people just say thank you, but when they give you an award, that's super nice. And so I'm very appreciative of the recognition that you're giving to me and to Bob for the work we've done at my age. Is gratifying to know that I have contributed in some way to, a better world, a more thoughtful world and, a world where people can get along, by listening to each other and understanding each other rather than by fighting each other.

00:36:57:14 - 00:37:05:22
Unknown
so that's been a gift. and I appreciate your recognition of that.

00:37:05:22 - 00:37:10:14
Unknown
Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much, because I do. Thank you guys so much.