Vimla | 00:01
Hello and welcome to Coaching Confidential, a podcast hosted by ICF-certified professional coaches Lisa DiMatteo, and myself, Vimla Gulabani. In this podcast, we bring you inside a real live unscripted coaching session, and at the end of the coaching session you hear from the client about the impact of the coaching and you hear about the skills that the coach used. In this episode, we are taking a break from our usual format and we are continuing our series of conversations with coaches. Lisa, do you want to share the context of that?
Lisa | 00:37
Vimla | 03:14
Fascinating. I'm looking forward to hearing this whole conversation.
Lisa | 03:21
Vimla and I were just starting season two of our podcast and somewhere in our process, we started thinking about sort of a look back. The plan was we were going to be coached about, hey, what was it like to do 10 episodes? Like having no clue about doing a podcast. And we weren't really organized about it. We just got on the call and John was trying to coach us, but it soon became clear that we didn't want to be coached. And so we just had a conversation,
Howard | 03:52
Lisa | 03:53
Howard | 05:22
Mm. When you asked that question, I, I kind of go back to the beginning of when we were first training to be coaches, because this has had an evolution in our relationship and how it shows up and how we respond to it now versus at the beginning. And at the beginning it was really like, because we were like, you know, learning all this new stuff and learning new ways to be as people and as coaches, right? So there were a lot of blurry lines and there was a lot of conflict at the beginning because there was a lot of, um, almost like, Oh, I'll just speak for myself, like righteousness around it. Well this is who I am becoming, so you need to be able to be with this because I'm not coaching you, it's just who I am or I am becoming, right? So over time we learned and now we have shortcuts to it, but we, we needed to be really explicit. Like I would say things like, I know this is going to sound like I'm coaching you and I want you to know that that's not my intention. This is just coming from a genuine place of who I am and being curious because I'm a much more curious person Now, is it okay if I ask you this question? Right? So there's this big like long lead ins, but they were necessary and they were actually really served our, our relationship.
Lisa | 06:57
Yeah. Yeah. That's so fascinating, so fascinating. Howard, I'm curious if you have an example of what it was like back in the beginning and kind of how you experienced your partner responds to that or react, whatever it was.
Howard | 07:18
Lisa | 08:05
That was how she would experience that question.
Howard | 08:07
That's how she would experience it. Yeah.
Lisa | 08:10
Okay.
Howard | 08:10
Yeah. And I would experience it too, so I can flip it around and um, you know, she might say something to me like, I think you're just not stepping up. Like you're up against a blocker and you're in an old familiar comfort zone.
Lisa | 08:26
Mm.
Howard | 08:27
Lisa | 09:18
Howard | 10:21
Yep. And that's part of the complexity. And then there were, there was more complexity because we're committed to each other's growth. Right. And we're also committed to our own growth. And so part of that conversation could be, or kind of my internal dialogue to be completely transparent was, Wait a minute, I want you to collude with me and that I know that doesn't serve me. Right. And so, so the dance that we had, that we and we continue to make is in, well, I'll keep it back there in the early days, was how do we use these new tools to help each others in ways that we know we want to be helped?
Lisa | 11:02
Yeah.
Howard | 11:03
Right. Like for instance, if I was your coach, if I was your coach, I wouldn't collude with you. I look at that as a coach. Like am I just like feeding into some kind of like self-limiting belief that this client wants me to feed into to make them feel better? Right. I'm gonna look at that as coach and I'm gonna call that out, or I'm gonna manage that somehow cuz I'm, I'm being paid to grow the person.
Lisa | 11:30
Yes. Yes. Well, to help them get to the, the big A that they're holding. Yes. And just to be clear, I was a little confused when you said collude, but I think just for listeners like colluding meaning like you recognize something that's happening as either not moving closer to the goal or looking away from the goal somehow. Like being in denial or something.
Howard | 11:52
Yeah. Or feel sorry for me or feed into a limiting belief and just make it even more, you know, just, just feed into that because that's where I am right now and that's where I'm comfortable.
Lisa | 12:03
So in the context of being committed to each other's growth, like anti-growth behavior.
Howard | 12:08
Yes.
Lisa | 12:08
Okay.
Howard | 12:09
So I don't know if I just confuse things even more, but there was, there was always that layer and like she has that version of that.
Lisa | 12:16
So being committed to each other's growth as partners, how do you determine what that role is? Because imagine that you weren't both coaches and there was a time where that was true. Yes. What did that committing to each other look like? And so like, I guess, does that include coach-like behavior?
Howard | 12:36
Lisa | 13:35
Yeah. Yeah. So what you're really speaking to feels like you have kind of a more solid designed alliance Yeah. As part of your relationship as partners. And it includes coaching one another kind of in this way on the fly sort of way.
Howard | 13:53
Yeah. It, it includes being coach-like cuz our relationship actually went through a phase where we actually coached each other. We went through that phase. Now that took a lot like could you coach me on this? Or would you, I'm just thinking about this now. We had this kind of middle part of this arc where that was going on quite a bit.
Lisa | 14:15
What was that
Howard | 14:16
Like? That was cool. That was good because it was so well designed and there was full permission and um, that was always initiated by whoever wanted to be coached. So it wasn't like I would say to or Ooh, this sounds something like maybe I should coach you on. Right. It never worked that way. It was like, Hey, can you coach me on this? So whoever wanted the coaching was reaching out and we kinda learned that
Lisa | 14:43
Yeah. Nobody was selling.
Howard | 14:44
Lisa | 15:30
Mm-hmm.
Howard | 15:30
Lisa | 15:41
Yeah. It all sounds like a very organic arc. And over how long a period of time Howard?
Howard | 15:49
Yeah, so this is probably, um, seven or eight years now.
Lisa | 15:55
Okay. And were you traveling through your coach training at the same pace or same time?
Howard | 16:01
She was a, a year ahead. Okay. So pretty close.
Lisa | 16:05
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa | 16:07
Howard | 16:53
Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa | 16:55
And then that you turn into sort of this more boundary place, but also one where being coach-like with one another, not necessarily that you're entering into session together like a proper coaching session that your relationship container actually has an alliance where you get to be coach-like with one another.
Howard | 17:20
Yes. And that's the part that the alliance part is the part that's still very alive and present to this day no matter what. If it's, if it's one of us supporting the other or if we're we're just in a relationship conversation, it's like, how do we want to be in this conversation? Or I foresee this, this and this. Let's design around that. When this comes up, what's our intention? Right. And when like when we work with our clients, our couples clients, that's a big piece of it Right. Because we don't often have the conversation about the conversation. Yeah. That's like so important to relationships.
Lisa | 18:01
Howard | 18:33
Lisa | 19:33
Howard | 20:12
Lisa | 20:38
How do you be curious and not do curious? Can we, can we just break that distinction out?
Howard | 20:44
Lisa | 21:35
Yeah. I get it. I heard something in there though. I wanna reflect back to you. I think I heard you say that you are being more embodied in you, you're being more present to yourself Absolutely. To understand like, what's going on inside you, How are you being, you're focused on your being and I almost wanna say
Howard | 22:00
Yes.
Lisa | 22:00
You're being more present.
Howard | 22:02
Oh, a hundred percent.
Lisa | 22:04
Howard | 22:43
Um, I think I just, I just wanted to touch on that, that that part outside of my, my relationship. Yeah. Um, and a part that, you know, you just touched on this being more present. Yeah. That's part of being more coach-like and the whole internal, you know, I put the coach-like word self-management. Right. Self-management serves us in our work with our clients and it also serves me in my building closer relationships with other people. Cause it's part of my trans transition from being judgemental to being curious and present. Yeah. Yeah.
Lisa | 23:18
Yeah. Beautiful. I'm glad you said that. You know, it really does point to the fact that that might have happened even if you hadn't become a coach and embodied coach like qualities
Howard | 23:29
Could have. Yeah.
Lisa | 23:30
And you have a whole other toolbox. And and Vim and I have mentioned this in a, in another episode about how doing this and, and being a, being a coach and being with this podcast, we've noticed how we've changed as individuals because our clients reflect opportunities to us for how we wanna choose to be.
Howard | 23:51
Absolutely.
Lisa | 23:53
So thank you for adding that in. Let's end with maybe just a little bit about what, what you offer for coaching.
Howard | 24:00
Yeah. So my wife Erin and I are a couple that coaches couples and, um, I love the work on many levels. I love coaching couples and I especially love doing it with Aaron. I do a little bit on my own and it's not the same. We've been doing this for a couple of years and we're still learning about the ways that we impact couples in what they're looking for in their relationship. The way that our relationship impacts them matters. So it's a coaching relationship and it's our relationship in relationship to their relationship. And there's a lot that happens there that wouldn't necessarily happen if it was only one of us. Yeah.
Lisa | 24:47
Sounds like a catalyzer.
Howard | 24:49
It's a catalyzer. It brings a sense of balance to the coaching too. I think that sometimes might not be there in a one on two type of relationship on top of the fact that we just bring different perspectives. We're different people. We have different ways of seeing things and we offer that all the time. So there's, there's more on the coaching side to create from, because there's two of us. Yeah. It's really powerful. The clients we work with are generally folks that are like, they know they wanna be in the relationship. Like nobody's dragging somebody else in. They're wanting to create like more fulfillment, more excitement, more purpose. We work a lot with that. Like, we're not just two people living in a house together, maybe with kids, maybe without kids. We're about something as a couple. And maybe we don't know what that is, but we know we want that. So we wanna be intentional about creating our relationship together. Yeah. We help to, you know, expand awareness around what that is and then take action towards creating that.
Lisa | 25:53
Yeah. This sounds fascinating, Howard and I, I imagine that the world could use a lot of this. How would folks get in touch with you and Erin about this kind of coaching? Yeah.
Howard | 26:03
Well we, we have a website. It's vanguard coaches.com.
Lisa | 26:08
Vanguard?
Howard | 26:09
Yep. Vanguard, V A N G U A R d coaches.com. I can be [email protected] and, um, that's the best way to get in touch with us.
Lisa | 26:20
Awesome.
Howard | 26:20
Just to have a conversation to learn more. We, we like to be in those conversations with people too.
Lisa | 26:25
Amazing. Well, thank you for sharing that and all of your thoughts on what it's like as a coach in intimate, committed relationship with another coach and kind of what that arc has looked like for you. It's really interesting. I appreciate it.
Howard | 26:39
Yeah. I actually appreciate the opportunity as well because I learned a lot just in, in being, being intentional about this for half an hour. Yeah. It's been really cool.
Lisa | 26:50
Beautiful. Awesome.
Vimla | 26:56
Lisa, that was an insightful conversation. I feel like we have, um, we have a blueprint or, um, a frame of what happens in our relationship and we become coaches and maybe also an idea or an insight into a path to adopt to sort of navigate those relationships in my personal life as well. What do you think? Would you agree?
Lisa | 27:23
Vimla | 28:05
Yes, yes. I, I loved how Howard's examples of that confusion in the beginning when he talks about the beginning of when he and Aaron started going through the coach training.
Lisa | 28:15
Yeah. There was one line where he, I think he described it as like a little righteousness.
Vimla | 28:22
Yes.
Lisa | 28:23
Vimla | 28:44
Yes, yes. I'm so glad you brought that up. In fact, I have noticed this in other coaches as well. I mentor coaches and one of my mentees, somebody who's training to be a coach, said, you know, they declared to the partner that, Hey, look, this is changing me. My perspective is changing and you need to get on board. You need to change too. It happens. It's quite common, I think.
Lisa | 29:14
Yeah. I think acknowledging that there's confusion in the space can be quite empowering for the relationship though. And, and I'm thinking back to our other two conversations with Edwin and with Terry, and each one of them had their own way of acknowledging the change.
Vimla | 29:32
Yes.
Lisa | 29:32
Vimla | 29:53
Yes. I remember your metaphor from that conversation. Like, I have a new iOS. Yes,
Lisa | 29:59
Vimla | 30:03
Yeah. So what we are pointing to is at the beginning when one person, or in I guess this case both are going through coach training, there is bound to be this moment of, Hey, I have a new iOS.
Lisa | 30:18
Yeah. Yeah. And Howard then goes on to speak about how perhaps being a little bit more invitational, he doesn't use these words, but being a little bit more collaborative about that shift. Because in the case of Howard and his partner Aaron, it's not just Howard and Aaron, but there's the relationship, the marriage that they're keeping. And so how are the ways that each one of them is changing, impacting the relationship and after the confusion of like, whoa, something's different, what's going on? And, and maybe in Howard's case a little bit of, as he called it, righteousness, There was this other phase that he speaks about. I think he refers to it as the conversation about the conversation.
Vimla | 31:06
Yes. Uh, intentionally talking about what they want as an outcome, designing their conversations. Yes.
Lisa | 31:14
Yeah. And putting this into real life relationship context. I felt like Howard was speaking about like acknowledging that we used to be away with one another. We used to be this way with one another. Maybe we would support each other or allow for certain kinds of relating no matter what the case was. But now the relating was changing because some of the coach-like communication or coach behaviors were bleeding into their relationship. Right. So this still straddles the confusion a little bit. Like, who are we to each other right now? Wait, are you being my husband? Are you being my wife or are you being my coach?
Vimla | 32:04
Lisa | 32:08
Yes, exactly. And so you can see that from the white to the black. There's all these shades of gray and like where exactly are we?
Vimla | 32:16
Yes.
Lisa | 32:17
And so having the conversation that defines where we are and actually where we wanna be on that spectrum helped, it sounded like it helped take them out of the confusion.
Vimla | 32:32
Yes.
Lisa | 32:32
And closer to this sort of co-creation or this space of making agreements about who they are now.
Vimla | 32:40
Yes.
Lisa | 32:41
What they stand for in their relationship and what that looks like in terms of behaviors.
Vimla | 32:47
Yes. So the path is confusion to a conversation about a conversation which can be called agreements and leading on to co-creation.
Lisa | 33:00
Yeah. And it's, it's this kind of intentional relationship that I, you know, I wanna point out is available to not just people who are coaches, right? Yes. Um, this, that there's no domain ownership here. It's just that the kind of skills that coaches are practicing not only in their training, but day to day with clients actually have an application in relationships that make it really easy to have those conversations. But I think a lot of times in relationship, whether we're coaches or not, there can be this really pressure filled expectation that without these conversations, without this kind of process, things just happen. Like, we just know who we are, we just know what we stand for. We just know what the other's thinking. We just know what we're creating together versus intentionally discussing that and creating that. Right. It sort of feels like culturally that's something we always do.
Vimla | 34:06
Lisa | 34:14
So, Yeah.
Vimla | 34:16
Um, so Lisa, I also want to acknowledge what, how said about, um, how becoming a coach changed him. I think he pointed to becoming a more curious person and he used the words, he's being more curious and, uh, not doing more curious. That was, that was an amazing distinction, I thought.
Lisa | 34:43
Yeah. I almost felt like we could go into a rat hole in that, but what I love that he brought that made it really simple was he said, I'm bringing more wonder.
Vimla | 34:53
Yes.
Lisa | 34:54
And I feel like in our culture, we reward doing over being. And so we feel like maybe this space of wonder, this playing in this place of possibility, we don't often give that enough time. I'll speak for myself. I don't. Yes. And it really feels like it's such a place of possibility.
Vimla | 35:25
Yeah. Yes. It's interesting you say that because you know, I think as coaches we, we are trained in curiosity and um, I'll just speak for me. Um, I feel like it's so easy to bring curiosity and wonder to my clients, but bringing that same curiosity and wonder to myself is, um, is not always easy. Although like, which means like I have the skill, but I need to point it to me as well sometimes.
Lisa | 35:56
Yeah, I hear that. And this is one of the great, we talked about this in several episodes, right? The great gift of being a coach is that we are, we're always being invited to do our own work.
Vimla | 36:13
Yes. Yes. So very, very true. All right, so what's happening in the next episode?
Lisa | 36:23
So in our next episode, which is episode 16, we're gonna return to our original format where we actually have a real live unscripted coaching session and then a conversation about that session afterwards where we highlight the impact of this session for the client and where we highlight the skills that the coach used in that particular coaching conversation.
Vimla | 36:54
Exciting. I'm looking forward to going back.
Lisa | 36:58
Yes, me too. These conversations are so interesting and I'm actually curious how listeners experience them. And so as usual, we welcome comments and questions and how do they do that? FMA
Vimla | 37:16
Lisa | 37:26
Yes. And just a reminder, you might be listening to this podcast on your podcast platform of choice. Maybe that's Spotify, maybe that's Apple podcast. Maybe that's Overcast. Doesn't matter. This particular podcast is available on all the platforms, and you can listen to it directly on our current website, which is dub dub dub your vital self.com/coaching confidential. Thanks so much for listening.
Vimla | 37:58
Yes, untill next time.