To be an inspiration for people to not fear themselves in the world, I think is something that I'm very, very proud of. I hear from people frequently, you know, you were the first person I ever saw who was like me, and you gave me the courage. Even though we never met. You gave me the courage to move forward on my journey. Hello everyone and welcome.
Clout for Good is a bi weekly podcast that showcases personal and powerful conversations with prominent Lgbtq+ executives who are out in the workplace. The conversations are meant to create a supportive community to inspire Lgbtq+ people, their employers and allies to build equity and inclusion in the workplace. Today, I'm honored to welcome Jameson Greene to Klout for good.
Jamison was born in Oakland, California, and he always knew he would be a writer, a career goal that led to many adventures. He earned his MFA in Creative Writing from the University of Oregon. He transitioned medically and legally from female to male, from 1988 to 1991 while working at Sun Microsystems and went on to work for Visa, where we met and where he was the director of technical publications. He's published numerous articles and books on many aspects of transgendered health and rights.
And finally, he's the author of an award winning memoir called Becoming a Visible Man. Jameson and I led the Visa Lgbtq+ ERG Employee Resource Group while we work together at Visa. And it's great to see you again, Jamison. Thanks for joining. Thank you, David. It's a pleasure to be with you again. Yeah. So listen, I wanted to start as I mentioned, Jamison has a award winning book that's out there, and I wanted to start by reading an excerpt from his book, Becoming a Visible Man.
In the book, you say, Don't be afraid to be yourself or let others be themselves. Just don't hurt yourself or anyone else in the process. Life's too valuable a gift to waste on anything less than kindness. I love. I love this sentiment. I love this. This quote from from your book. Can you start by telling us a bit more about your journey to be more authentic yourself, both personally and the workplace? Sure. It starts it starts way back in kindergarten.
I knew I was different from both the other girls and the other boys, but I didn't know how or any words to put on it. I just knew that I was not like them and. I just. I just. But I just. Well, I have to say, I had two wonderful parents who adopted me at the age of one month and had no idea what they were getting. And they gave me unconditional love, which I know is a tremendous foundation for my ability to express myself and to to act in the world.
And even though they were upset about a lot of things that I did and ways that I addressed and ideas that I had sometimes, and my father always said, you can't fight city Hall. And I said, oh, yeah, but but, you know, we just I just I had that foundation, even though it wasn't 100%, you know, hearts and flowers, I in the workplace, I had odd jobs until I got out of college. Nothing was ever really meaningful.
And I got out of college and I with my MFA and creative writing and I could not find a job. It was 1972. There was a recession going on. I couldn't even get a job in a gas station. And I mean, it was it was really, really difficult. And finally I walked into the telephone company and there I was. And, you know, I had a female body, although people couldn't tell that I was a girl, a lot of times I was wearing jeans and an army jacket and I said, hi, Do you need any writers or photographers?
And, you know, I can I can do anything really. And they said, Do you think you could climb a telephone pole and and lift a manhole cover? And I said, I said I could do anything. And so I went through their battery of tests later. Much later, I found out they were under a consent decree to hire women and minorities in non-traditional jobs. And I just happened to be the first female bodied person to be hired as a construction cable splicer. And this was in Pacific Northwest Bell.
They already used women as cable splicers in cities like New York. But in those places, cable Splicer was it was like walking to an office and walking into a giant room where there were splices everywhere. And you just sat down at a splice and and connected wires out in Oregon where I was, it was it was rough. And and you had to carry giant nitrogen tanks into woods and place them somewhere and you had to be on a telephone pole that was leaning over a river.
You know, you had to climb all the way up there with all your tools. And and it was it was a very, very difficult job. And they never thought I would actually handle it because I was so small. But I was they you know, they put me through the training program. And I think what they were trying to do, frankly, was make was prove that they couldn't find any women who could qualify. And they admitted that I was one of the I was one of the best climbers they had ever seen in the line school.
And and then they offered me a job as a janitor building janitor. And I said, look, I don't know what a cable splicer is, but I do know what a janitor is. So I probably didn't go to college for six years to become a cable splicer, but I signed up to do it. I qualified. I passed your training program and I'm going to be a cable splicer. They said, okay, So it was it's this sort of, you know, look, I said it, I'm going to do it, you know, kind of attitude. I'm showing up.
And that, I think, was was something that carried me through much of my very diverse career. And, you know, it was tough because I got a lot of ribbing from guys. And, you know, I just I just handled it very coolly. You know, at one point, I was critiqued for taking a job that. Some man might be able to have to feed his family. And I said, Oh, what makes you think I don't have a family to feed? And they they were kind of like, Oh, of course they didn't.
But, you know, I always I always try to stay calm, relaxed in the face of a challenge and suss out where there are access points to make change. Well. And Jamieson, as you then moved into utilising your writing skills and progressing from splicing into the corporate sort of technology world. How did that how did that change? Were the experiences any different or.
And at the time I also know you were going through your transition, so there probably were a lot of other things happening in addition. How did that change as you then moved into a more corporate world? As I went into the corporate world. I couldn't figure out what to wear. I really wanted to wear jeans and flannel shirts and work boots and stuff, but I couldn't in a corporate environment.
So I basically just found a kind of clothing style that I could live with, which was slacks, men's slacks and, you know, just a shirt, regular old Oxford kind of shirt. And sometimes I'd wear a vest or I'd wear a blazer, and I tried to buy blazers in women's department. I was afraid to shop in the men's department for too many articles of clothing. Pants was one thing, but.
But any almost anything else kind of scared me a little bit because I was I was afraid people would judge me, but I couldn't be any different than I was. So I was just trying to figure all that out. It was very, very confusing. But I carried myself into interviews and into work situations just by knowing that I could do the job. It's just it was always about the job. It was never about me. And so I know. Look at me, you can look at me.
But, you know, I know I don't fit your ideas about what a woman should be and certainly not what a man should be. But look, I'm. I'm here to do the job, and I can. I can do it. Let me show you. And building relationships and that basis moved me pretty rapidly once I got into a corporation up the food chain. Just being competent was important.
And, you know, I, I remember after I'd worked at a medical device manufacturing company as their only writer for a year at the Christmas party, the the, the HR director got a little bit tipsy and she told me that when I came in to interview for that job, she could not tell whether I was a man or a woman. And so she kept asking me questions that would elicit me saying something about whether I was male or female. And I never did. And she so but but she liked me so much. She gave me the job.
So, you know, it's. Just well, luckily and and luckily to her, that didn't matter. Right. And I. Right, right. Exactly. Well, and you know, one of the one of the reasons I started Klout for good was I get a lot of the same questions from trans and queer employees that I asked myself 25 years ago.
And and I in your in your work, you referenced this same thing and you stated that far too many people still believe there's no information to be found about transgendered lives and and that you continue to feel the same questions. Why? Why do we think as we've progressed, as we've as the workplace has changed as policy and as as a lot of different components of our workplaces change, Why do we think it's it's still there of an example.
I was speaking somewhere recently and a queer identified, identified employee came up, came to me after and said, So do you talk about what you and your partner did in your C-suite meetings on Monday morning? Do you really say what you two did over the weekend? And so it just is a real lightbulb. It's a real aha moment for me of we're still in many ways in the same place because I remember thinking and asking some of those same questions, Why do you think that still is?
Well, look at the backlash we're getting right now. I mean, once once same sex marriage was made legal, the opposition has dug their heels in deeply. And they're they're making it really, really hard for a lot of people. And so I think. It hasn't changed all that much because we're still suffering from the same prejudices, the same mythology and the same fears that people have when they don't know anybody who is Lgbtq+ and or they simply have written us off already. They aren't going to.
They don't care about knowing us at all. So that's that's a barrier that still has to be broken down completely. And the people who have the most power in driving the the backlash that's going on now isolate themselves. They would never put themselves in a situation where they would get to know somebody they don't want to. I mean, look at the legislators who are in these sessions where they're doing hearings for these horrible bills that they just won't listen.
They just say, no, thank you very much for coming in. We're done with you. We don't want to hear any more from you. I still think we can beat it back. I still think we can overcome this. But it's by being present and demonstrating who we are and demonstrating that we are not anything to be feared. We are not going to be hurting them the way they want to hurt us. We're not taking anything away from them. Yeah, and I think you bring up such a good point.
With over 500 different types of bills and legislation that are very specifically over the last year or so, anti-trans, very specifically anti queer in general. It's it's pretty overwhelming. And I know in your abstract that I read Unbending The Light.
You describe your work with the San Francisco Human Rights Commission, the Human Rights Campaign and the Corporate Equality Index and the World Professional Association of Transgendered Health to create critically needed transgender, inclusive health and workplace benefits.
So just this pioneer and someone we can all be very thankful for, for this work of on the sort of policy side and on on the governmental side really making monumental is is a word that should be attached to it work and you know so thank you for that, first of all. And you know, I guess one question is we're talking about this, you know, not to fear us.
And but it looks like from your experience really working with that outside of corporate world to make policy change that's lasting and impactful, what can employees do and what can companies do to make change within the workplace? And how did you or have you navigated the workplace side of that to advocate for change? Absolutely.
Back in the early 90s, I realized that there was so little awareness of who trans people were that I decided I was going to start offering gender diversity trainings or gender diversity education, and specifically in the workplace, because trans people often had difficulty finding jobs or staying employed because of prejudice predominantly. So I started I had I had flyers that I produced that basically said this is a problem.
If you think as an HR director you have never faced this, I can assure you you will face it. You you may actually already have transgender employees working at your company and you just don't know it. And if you if you don't think you have some, trust me, you're going to have some. And and I did quite a bit of this work. I did a program at Macy's for a series of brochures explaining what to do when you can't tell what somebody's sex is or you think that they're not who they should be.
If you're a salesperson, if you're a manager and how to treat customers, It was very, very successful. And after I did that and I did it, it was it was the head office, corporate office in Cincinnati that contacted me to develop this for them. And after that, in the San Francisco store, trans women who often are extremely skilled at applying makeup, you would you began to see trans women working at the cosmetic counter in Macy's in downtown San. Cisco. And, you know, that's that's a great thing.
And whether the whether the customers knew they were transgender or not, I have no idea. And then eventually I started seeing I would walk into like a Starbucks or a Peet's coffee and a trans worker would say they would recognize me and they'd I'd order my coffee and they would say, It's on the house. And there was I thought that was so sweet because I recognized them as trans people. I'd never met them. But and I don't know how they recognized me, but they did.
And I was really flattered by that. I love it. I love it. You know, one of the other things that the listeners of Klout for good, one of the things that I talk a lot about is working to be your most authentic self. As as you've talked a little bit about your journey and, you know, you even mentioned in some of your work that visibility is is important.
And certainly it is, you know, if you can see it and maybe it's at least building conversations, opening the door, driving awareness and then creating solutions. But many folks in the workplace, those who are maybe thinking I'd like to be more authentically myself, a younger trans employee, a younger queer employee, or someone who's in the closet and hasn't felt comfortable being able to bring their more authentic self.
What What advice would you give to folks who are trying to show up more authentically and do it safely and do it in a way that works for them? What advice would you give to folks? It's it's really about building relationships. It's the first thing you have to do in the workplace is show up for the work.
You have to demonstrate that you are capable, that you're a team player, that you're competent, that you can produce, that you whatever it is that you are assigned to produce it, you can do it and you do it cheerfully and competently and with consideration for your coworkers. And you engage, you engage. And that's how you break down the barriers and don't make it about you. Don't make it about your difference. Don't always come from a place of, you know, lack or intimidation.
Get that you're intimidated by them. I'll always come from a place that says, I'm here, I'm here to do the job. Let's work. Let's work together. And that will help to break down those barriers because people know you're different. They can figure that out. They just don't know how and they don't know what that is. And then and then you you show them that you're a human being and and you identify with their issues. You know, ask them about their problems.
Don't tell them about yours unless they ask. And then but make sure you're on a level playing field in that kind of a context if you possibly can. And and then, you know, you gradually you say, well, you know, they saw that they saw Ellen on TV. You know, mean when when Elon came out on TV, that was a big deal for a lot of people. And people were always in those days standing around the water cooler, which, you know, we don't have those anymore.
Talking about what they watched on TV last night when Elon came out on TV, it was like, whoa, I can't imagine knowing somebody who's gay. And and you say, Oh, well, you already do really. You probably know more than you think. For instance, there's me you could say, you know, And they go, Oh, because they already like you. They already trust you. That's what breaks things down.
And that's why coming out on a 1 to 1 basis, why it's why it takes so long to create this cultural change is because we have to change hearts and minds one at a time and nobody likes that anymore. They want to put something on Instagram and move on, you know ? But that's not going to change the world in that sense. It's not going to hearts and minds. And Jamison, I like what you're saying about show up and do your work. You're you're hired to do that, first and foremost.
I think that's really good advice. And it reminds me of when my my own coming out experience from rural Michigan and once I came out. To your point of also sort of changing hearts and minds one by one. You know, once everyone in my small community found out that I was identifying as gay, many people would say, well, that's okay. I know David. I like David. He's a good person, nice guy, whatever it was. And that's okay with me.
And I think to your point, that really can translate in the workplace. It's, you know, Jamison's a great colleague, does great work. I really enjoy working with him and therefore that's okay with me, hopefully is the response. And also, you know, it may to your point, spark a conversation of sharing and understanding and, and getting to know each other better, which I think is, is really important. Um, one thing I wanted to listen as I, you know, we work together.
As I had mentioned at Visa, and we had the privilege of of running our employee resource group. And I think we learned a lot of things from that experience. I know for me, on this topic of telling your story, you know, queer employees and trans employees are looking for community. As you said, maybe people don't know who is or is not, and you're looking for for community. And what what importance did community within the trans and queer community within your workplace.
What what did that mean to you? Is that something that was helpful for you in the workplace ? And should others sort of seek that out as well? Well, I think it's a good thing what it meant to me at Visa in particular, which was the first place I worked, that actually had an employee resource group focused on LGBT individuals. What? I didn't actually.
I was told about the group and, and I was encouraged to come to the meetings and I didn't want to at first because I just I don't need that, you know, I'm just here to do my job. Exactly. And yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, oh, this is actually great because we can look at some of the issues that are going on in the workplace that are barriers to people like us. So we may have the skills to have gotten over those barriers, but others don't.
And we need to make room for more people always wherever we wherever we are. And so learning to work together on issues that are community building and I had already done this in outside of the workplace a lot in the trans world because I inherited a group, a support group for trans men in 1991 when its founder passed away from complications of HIV.
Um, so I, I had brought my management skills to that task actually, to encourage people to work together, to encourage people to grow community rather than just find the information they wanted and then run away. But to be there to help the next person who was going to come in with the same questions that you had. So, you know, we built a very, very large global community out of this tiny little support group in San Francisco.
And so I was and that's how I got involved with this city laws and stuff. And I actually wrote the the first nondiscrimination law that for the city of San Francisco that included gender identity and expression as a protected category of human humanness, that people shouldn't be discriminated for. So discriminated against for awkward sentence. But sorry but you know what I mean.
So so they're in the workplace to finally have a group of people that were actually sharing the same concerns and bringing our diverse skills from the workplace into that space was really a breath of fresh air ultimately. And it was, of course, great working with you, David.
And, you know, we were able to bring in corporate sponsors, you know, bring in the executives who really had the clout to do what we needed them to do, but we had to give them the tools to exercise their clout with in ways that would be beneficial for not just us as individuals, but for a much wider swath of the workplace population. I remember the fight for same sex benefits, domestic partner benefits back in the 80s.
That was a real big change in the workplace and it benefited not just Lgbtq+ people, but anyone who chose for some reason to be in a domestic partnership, but not in not import the benefits of marriage. And there were plenty of straight couples who did that. And, you know, when when people get older, there are tax benefits to not being married.
So, I mean, it's so a lot of, you know, couples who get together in the in the senior center, they're they they don't want to get married necessarily, but they do want to be economically joined and domestic partnership helps them. So it's you know, the things that matter to us can matter to people outside of our social circles.
And we have to find ways that to frame things, to frame arguments, to frame the concepts of equality, that let people know that they're not being something's not being taken away from them. They're not going to be negatively impacted by this. Yeah. And I think a lot of that work we did together there and that we've continued to do after Visa. You know, you're right.
I think, as you said, to not fear what you don't know, but also to be a part of like you said, I remember really distinctly as you brought that up sitting and we would have those conversations with with leaders up to the CEO of Visa saying, here's why this is important. Here's what this this audience, this group of employees that you have, these are needs that they have.
And, you know, and it was I remember also as you bring up domestic, you know, health care benefits or you bring up covering transition as part of health care, there were price tags that had to be discussed. And you know that in creating equity through even in some cases, the employer needing to invest more. But that's what they needed to do to support their full employee community. So it was it was really an amazing time to be able to be a part of a lot of that.
And I think, as we've said, there are still things that are on the table, especially with all of this sort of anti-trans and queer legislation and policy has been happening. Well, one thing I'm interested in is, as I have gotten to know you more, which has been a really amazing privilege, is, you know, I read your book, I read your abstract.
I kind of poke around and learn more about you and stemming from your own personal journey and staying on track with that and being true to yourself to helping write policy that has helped our community to writing a book that quite frankly seems like it probably was a few years earlier than everyone was ready to digest it. And now, as you're asked to come back and hey, this now book is picked up again, we'd like you to do audio and we'd like to do other things.
You know, being such a trailblazer, really, I think is what this kind of alludes to is. I'm curious from you, what is your what's your legacy or what are you most proud of as you look back now? And there's lots more to come, I know you'll continue to do things that are impactful, but as you look at it right now, what are you most proud of in your journey? Oh, my gosh, Most proud. You know, a lot of it's about about encouraging people to be visible and be themselves and not be afraid.
I think that's to to be an inspiration for people to not fear themselves in the world, I think is something that I'm very, very proud of. I hear from people frequently, you know, you were the first person I ever saw who was like me, and you gave me the courage. Even though we never met. You gave me the courage to move forward on my journey. And that's a that's a it's a privilege and a responsibility.
And I, I am honored by the gratitude that I receive, even though I've never met people who are doing living their lives this way. I recently was at a meeting in Montreal and, and two two young men from, uh, from New Zealand came and they, they brought their copy of my book and they wanted me to sign it. And they, it brought me a little present. Actually, it was a little representation of a, of a, of a little God type figure from the indigenous people there.
And you know, they were just so grateful. And, you know, I could give them a hug. And, you know, it was like the best thing that ever happened. And, you know, it's not I'm not trying to be I'm not trying to have a swelled head over this. I just I feel so privileged to be able to touch people from all over the world. And another another young man from Ireland came and said, we I run a group for trans people in Ireland and everyone has to read your book. And I'm like, Wow, I love it. Thank you.
Thank you so much. You know, I love it. More hugs and, you know, more encouragement for him, you know, And it's just it's such a privilege to be able to give that to people. And and, you know, I'm just grateful that I have that ability. That's that's great. That's awesome. And one final question for you. So, you know, we're it's really as we just talked about, influencing others.
And I no doubt know that people who listen to this conversation will learn more about you and your work and will feel inspired from the conversation as well. But who along your journey inspired you is where I'd like to go next. So you, if you are, as you've said, sort of thinking about using your cloud, if you're having a Klout for good dinner party and you're gonna invite 2 or 3 trans or queer icons that, you know, I think people would want to know who who's inspired you along the way.
Who would you invite to that dinner party and why? Well, I have to I have to start with James Baldwin because he was a creative genius and a trailblazer in so many ways. He's just as a writer, you know, he's definitely been an inspiration to me and on very different lines. Doris Fish, do you know who Doris Fish was? I don't know. Doris Fish was an iconic drag queen in San Francisco. She made an incredible film, which I hope everyone someday will be able to see if it ever gets properly restored.
Vegas in space. It's a it's hysterical. And and she was a creative genius. She was so talented and so vivacious and so artistic and creative. She was just amazing. And there's a great book about her and the rise of drag that's available now. It just came out in the last year. It's called Who Does That Bitch Thinks She Is? Doris Fish and the Rise of Drag. It's really informative about San Francisco in in the 60s, 70s and 80s and the the impact of Aids HIV.
It's a brilliantly written book by Craig Seligman. Doris Fish is somebody that you would not want to miss having at your at your dinner. She was she was wild. She was wild. And I, I actually never met Doris in person. I saw her quite a bit. And I know other people who did know her well and who are still alive today.
But yeah, yeah, she was she would be one and and another would be Lou Sullivan, who was the young guy who died and left me his little support group and who sort of gave me opened the door for me to, to do the global work that I've done. And I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't ended up there. But it was it wasn't like I wanted to do what he asked me to do. But I promised him a week before he died that I would I would do what he asked me to do. And. And so I did.
And the rest is history. But Lou Sullivan also was a creative genius on his own. He was the first gay identified trans man. The medical establishment believed that you could not be gay and trans at the same time, that there was no such thing as a gay trans person. And we all know that to be not true.
But Lou was the one who went out and had dialogues with some of the leading psychiatrists in the fields of studying gender and convincing them that sexual orientation and gender identity are two different things and everybody has them and they can be mix and match. They're not There's no direct line that says because you have a male body, you're always going to be attracted to women.
And just because you had started with a female body and want to be a man and need this medical assistance to do this, that doesn't mean that you are going to be attracted to women in a men's body. Well, I want to be invited to the dinner party, that's for sure. That sounds that sounds amazing. Well, yeah. Doris will blow you away. Jamison. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Jamison, you know, I. It's been.
I feel like one of the things that that is amazing about our conversation is, you know, I did it for good so that people could hear stories and understand journeys and get advice from folks who have already taken steps to become their authentic self. And, you know, as I knew you at Visa and now what I've gotten to know along the way, it's been such an honor and I'm so impressed with the more all that I continue to learn about you. So thank you very much for all you've done.
You are a visible man and you are seeing for those of you that want to get a copy of Jamison's book Becoming a Visible Man, visit Jameson Green to learn more about where you can purchase and download. And there's even a discussion guide. You could have that discussion guide for your group or for your book club or for whatever you'd like to use. And to my listeners, thanks so much for joining us today. Please tune in every other week on Wednesdays for a new episode.
Follow us on Social and visit Klout for good. To subscribe to your newsletter, I hope this episode gives you the motivation to use your own clout for good to make a difference. Jamieson Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you, David. Appreciate what you're doing here. Thank you so much. We? Don't.