#241- Tom De Dorlodot and Resilience

Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the CloudBase Mayhem. Just got off the phone with Tom Dodorlado. Most of you, I'm sure, know who he is. He's been on the show two full times, and then I've had him on for a few of those little... pre-Exalps and post-Exalps snippets. He has competed in... what i certainly think is the greatest game on earth the red bull x helps nine times incredibly he got started in 2007 hasn't missed one since his very early days he was a teenager his first one

He's been going hard ever since and getting better and better and better. We had a fantastic flight, which we'll talk about in this show coming off the coal after. rounding Mont Blanc in last year's race. And I'm looking forward to seeing him in this year's one. I was quite surprised to see that he'd signed up for his 10th because of, again, I think most of you saw this. He had a pretty...

horrible accident about a year ago up in Norway, learning how to kite ski. He was getting ready for an expedition. He wanted to kite from the south point to the north point of Greenland, a big expedition. He's done a lot of kiting and, of course, a ton of paragliding, but he hadn't done any kite skiing, so he was doing it the right way. He had an instructor and a buddy, and they were starting to figure it out and then went against, I think, the...

Main takeaway here is going against instinct. He was the one that you've heard this advice that he's given us in one of the shows earlier on. If there is doubt, there is no doubt. And he certainly had some doubt going into this day. It was really gusty, turbulent, not very nice conditions. But the instructor thought that he could handle it.

And just as he was setting up, Big Gus came through, and I'll let him tell the story, but things went super sideways. He's had a very rough year. He's had nine knee surgeries since. the crash and has lived a good portion of this last year on antibiotics which of course is really hard on the body and but he's

For the most part, maintaining optimism and staying positive and fighting really hard. And he's still hoping he can make the race. But the clock is certainly ticking as we get into March. There's not much time left. in the show there's been quite a bit of doubt whether he could even keep his leg and so things were looking pretty good in the last few weeks and we signed off on a pretty optimistic note and then the next morning i got a

A voice recording from Tom that he took the bandages off later that day after we chatted. And the infection, which is something they've been fighting since the beginning, is back. The future's pretty opaque still, but he's fighting hard. I think you're going to find this incredibly inspiring story, especially if you've been hurt and gone through an accident.

which most of us have, or you have a friend who is or was, just all aspects of it, the fear side of it, the mental side of it, the healing side of things, how it affects your family. We got into a lot of places here that are inspiring, interesting, hard, but Tom articulates it better than just about anybody. Without further delay, please enjoy this great chat with Tom Dodorlado. And just one thing about the sound is I have three or four shows in the can right now, all on one micro SD card.

which crashed on me yesterday as I was recording this opening on that card. And so I'm trying to recover all that, but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. So we'll be using the Riverside platform, which is what I use to record these shows. for my sound using my sound is on professional gear on my end and the river side is just for my guest so if the sound isn't up to snuff on my side that's the reason i apologize but

These are two good shows to just toss, so I wanted to use them. Enjoy. Tom, we just... I had a nice conversation before we started recording here. We've got a lot to talk about, but it's great, wonderful to see you in such good spirits. You've had a heck of a year, bud, and it's almost been a year. So we're going to... I'd love to talk to you about your accident and just what's happened in the last little bit. But first of all, just, hey man.

You can see it. It's great to see you. Same here, man. I've kind of missed the paragliding family for the last month. I've been in a cave here. Trying to survive after the accident. And yeah, I'm coming back to life. It's great to catch up with you, man. It's good to see you, my friend. One of the last times, I guess it was maybe the last time I saw you was we had a really cool little flight together in the last race. Did some fun filming of you. We had a nice hike up at the coal.

And down into Italy. That was a lot of fun. A little wild there. I think this is one of the flights that I remember arriving on takeoff. It was after what, four or five days on Ixhub or something. And I arrived on top and I was like, oh shit, we're on the lee side, it's coming from the side, it's coming strong. And you only had 30 minutes or something and then you had another call or something. So yeah, but it was great playing with you.

and struggling in those shitty conditions. I could make it out at the end. You handled it like a boss. I mean, remember, I don't know if you remember, there's just so much going on in the race, but I had been at that Cole. What is it called? What was that Cole called? Petit Saint-Bernard. Petit Saint-Bernard. And we were hiking up and we were kind of...

You said, are we on the right side here? Because it was later in the afternoon and we were kind of going up on the east side because that's where everybody else had been. But it was a little bit later in the day. And it wasn't very nice at the launch. It was kind of cross and weird. It was a mistake. Actually, all the guys that came after me, they were like almost an hour behind and they caught me because they took off on the other side. I didn't know that.

They saw that conditions were shitty on my side and they took off on the other side. So Donini and all those guys, and they caught up with me and we landed just before Monterosa. But yeah, it was a sketchy ride in strong wind. Yeah, one of those moments in Ixals were like, a bit on the edge, but it worked out. And actually, really, I think that it really helped. Yeah, let's not tell anyone, but I think it helped that you were there.

Because I remember we were pinned there. We couldn't move in the wind and then we escaped to the next ridge. And again, we couldn't move much and there was no conditions. Yeah, but you say we shouldn't tell anybody, but you made all the moves. You launched first and I was kind of struggling there and you just bossed it out of there and then...

Holy shit, dude, we were on the deck. I couldn't believe you squeaked through there. Both of us did. I just kept thinking, oh, I'm going to land. I'm going to land. Oh, there we go. We came through. And by the time you got down to the big junction…

you know, you really had it. We kind of surfed that for a long time. And then I looked down at my clock and said, Oh, I got to be on the ground to do this live thing. And so I landed in the next time I looked, you were a long way down course line. So, I mean, You made it work. I was going to ask you about that. We're getting sidetracked, of course, on our favorite subject, which is the X-Alps. But, you know, it was really different for me to be.

doing that race from that perspective, because that, that day, especially, you know, I was there, I spent the night there and the next morning, you know, Patrick and Damien came through first and actually Powell came through first. I missed him, but they, the other guys, and it was just. a windy, kind of ratty, not a very nice day. And, you know, again, I'm going to wait and film the next guy rather than go with these guys. It was interesting.

in a very different frame of mind for that whole race you know when it was spicy and nasty which it often was people often thought you know oh the weather was so good in that race it was good for you guys but it was often especially that leg of the race once you guys got around Mont Blanc it was pretty rowdy man I mean that day that Damien went

huge. It was really windy at the peak tops. I mean, it was blowing 60 kilometers an hour in places. It was pretty spicy. During the whole race, actually, but I think I know where you're going. If you're in the race...

You have that switch, you know, and then you get into that race mode and you get through those conditions and then you look back and you're like, oh, I would have probably not fly if it was a normal day, you know, or if I wasn't in the comp. And most of the days were like that in the Excel. So I totally understand that you were. It was really, I didn't enjoy it. It was interesting. I mean, that flight with you was one of the rowdier flights I did. And when I landed, I was kind of,

And then I thought, man, if I was in the race, that would be just totally normal. I would have been fine. Like you did, you just, but I mean. We took some hits going down through that canyon and I was really uncomfortable. It was just a very, you know, and I know that if I'd been in the race, it would have just been great. Yeah. This is what you're doing. No, for sure. Great thing, huh?

And I think that's, I don't know, for me, like this race, I came into the race two years ago with one thing in mind was to say, well, I don't want to get hurt. I want to enjoy and I want to go to the end. Obviously, I want to do a good result. but i was not ready to risk it all you know like i was taking some margins the good thing was that i and i think especially for this race in this type of conditions i was flying a glider that is quite compact quite safe and really fast

And I'm a little bit heavy on my glider on this side, on this size of the glider. And that really helped for these kind of conditions. Because when it was windy, you know, I could go against the wind. the glider was strong. Um, and I have to say somehow, like I could hear some of the pilots complaining a lot about the conditions and I, it was rough obviously, but I, I never felt in total danger. I felt that it was manageable.

and maybe because also the year before I was in Pakistan you know when you fly in those massive mountains and then you come it's like you when you fly in the Rockies and then you come to the Alps and everything seems a little bit easier even if it's not but you feel a little bit more you know a little bit safer maybe um but but again like um and guys like griegel and and damien and the guys in front they were pushing through really really shitty conditions on speed bar most of the time you know

When I needed to take some margin, I was taking it, you know? And, and so, but that day I was coming from Interlaken. Imagine that. I was, I was coming from Neeson that morning. So it was like, what a day. 235k that day or something when we landed in Monterosa it was fun because at the end of the day so I did the exams a few times as you know and at the end of the day I knew where I was

And I knew a place where I stayed the year before, a nice little place. So I flew towards that. I landed in front of this little hut. You know, spend the night there. The owner recognized me. I had a good polenta and stuff. And the next morning I knew exactly where to take off. So everything was kind of a... And also... That day I made a move and I think it's interesting to talk about it is I was with the other guys.

in front you know like i was i was with uh donini and i had four or five pilots in front of me but that night i decided to go and land there even though I could have gone to the next valley. And I know it's counterintuitive and people say, no, you have to try to stay in front. But I knew the next day was difficult and with lots of different options.

The south options in the lakes and north options in the mountains and stuff. And I knew it was going to be a tricky day. And I knew it was not going to be about speed and being in front. the next day i took off and i took all my time and i was on my on my phone in the air looking at the options and oh who is doing well you know oh they're doing well in the south they're not doing so good in the north or

And I was the only one, I think, that started with the south route and came back into the north route. If you look at my track, it's totally different than the other one. But I could really do that. Because I had people in front showing me what was happening. And at the end of the day, I was in front of all the group.

I wish I had your kind of patience in that race. It's the first time I do it. I think I heard Clegane saying something like that one day. They can go in front because I need to see what's happening. And at the end, you know, sometimes you're 20K in the back and you think, oh, they're gone.

But no, they're not. You know, the days are long. If you fly smart, you catch up with them easy, you know. But for sure, if you can see what's happening in front, you know, oh, it's still a little bit stable. They're low. They're fighting. Well, you avoid it.

And, um, yeah, I mean, if everyone does that, that, that we wouldn't be really fast, but, but sometimes you have to be ready to slow down a little bit. I always say, if you want to be fast, you have to go slow sometime, you know? Yeah. That's interesting. I always have that in my year. That's. I hope we get good conditions this year again. I don't know if I'm going to be there.

Really, like probably not. I mean, I'm looking at my leg right now and I still have the pins and stuff I can show you here. Yeah, you showed me that before. It doesn't... That's not what you really want to see in February, late February. No, but the thing is I subscribed. I had the accident in March and then I thought, okay, I'm going to be fixed for next X-Hubs. And it's an important one for me because it was going to be.

be my 10th Red Bull XL or maybe it is going to be my 10th Red Bull XL so I'm still like I'm still in contact with the APC with the doctors at Red Bull and stuff and we're still we still think that If in a month we take the medal out and I can train like hell, I won't come with my best level, but maybe I'm safe to start, you know.

so we will see for you good for you but but hey i mean let's be realistic i think the chances are small like very small but but hey i'd like to be there and if not you know what I'm going to do, I'm going to come with you and follow you guys and see what's happening. Learn from the outside, you know, get in front, get in the back, see who does what and how and analyze it. And then I'll be back in two years.

You know, it was actually really a great learning experience for me to do what I did in the last one. I think if I was your age, I would really be thinking that... I could have done that and then race this time. You know, at this point, I just really feel like I've checked the box, but my ski racing was like that. I had a really bad accident ski racing.

when I had just made the U.S. team and, you know, everything was on the up and up. And literally about 10 days later, I just totally destroyed my knee. It was the first time I'd had, it was my first big injury. You know, I mean, in ski racing, you're always getting little hurts, but it was a big one. I was out for the rest of the season. I didn't go to Europe for the World Cups and all the things that were planned.

For the first time, it allowed me to get away from ski racing. I mean, I was still training and coming back and all the plans were there, but it forced me to just watch tape. get away from it and when i came back to the sport i was so much faster because i had a big break i got to you know when when you're just doing it day after day after day after day

I don't know that you're shoveling in the right type of thing. I mean, you're getting really current, which is great, and you're flying really well, but... It was just really interesting to see it from that perspective, to see what people were doing, to see what was working, what wasn't. And I think I got a perspective that if I was to do it again, would really help me.

uh i'm sure i'm sure this is learning this is a little bit where i am now you know and i also think that's um i really like when i look back at the content from two years ago i really enjoy watching what you were doing there you know shooting the guys flying

trying to explain to the mainstream you know who does what and how it works and stuff like that and i think that's super interesting and i if if i cannot race i'll probably go there and try to fly with the the pilots you know i haven't been flying for a year you know basically so

get back in the air trying to fly trying to compete a little bit with those guys just play around you know that'd be super cool maybe take a tent and sleep up there in the mountains and just enjoy you know coming back slowly I think that's the wisest thing to do but But at the same time, this is my 10th Red Bull X-Helps, you know, if I can go for it. And I, yeah, I'm still like, obviously, if I go, I'm not going to run 90K a day, you know.

But I would love to be there with the team, with all the friends that are there and stuff. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes. I think it's like Paul, right? Was it 2019 after he broke his leg? And obviously it wasn't the same injury you're dealing with. I remember talking to him afterwards. It helped his approach. Same with Aaron. Remember in 2017, he had to pull out of the race. When he came in 2019, he just decided, I'm not going to walk on the pavement at all.

and he did really well yeah he had an awesome year uh so i i think i think you just you know you can kind of shift the perspective and shift the goal sometimes it can make you better you know gaspar i remember gaspar problems and he only trained in a pool for a month and he was only he was only swimming in a pool you know and training and i'm like i can i can as soon as i can swim

I'll be training in the Azores. At sea, I can spend my day swimming. And so we'll see if I can come strong enough. But right now, my leg pretty much disappeared. I have zero muscles on there. It's gone. Everything is gone. And it takes... time to come back so we'll see but i have i have the right support team around me you know and so we'll see how it goes

Tom, let's rewind the clock a little bit here because you gave me the full perspective before we started recording, but the listeners don't. You had a great podcast in French recently that I saw a lot of the highlights and stuff on Instagram and you went. through it i know you've told the story a million times you must be sick of it but what happened and and what has this last 11 months looked like yeah so you know i i was um

I'm always keen to learn new things and stuff. So last year in March, I was preparing for an expedition. I wanted to cross Greenland from south to north with a snow kite. I'm a kiter. I've been kitesurfing for many years. As you know, I sail a little bit too, so I've lived on a sailboat. I have some experience with kites and stuff, and I'm a decent skier.

But I thought, okay, well, if I'm going to do that, it's long distance, it's a big adventure. I'm going to prepare as one should. So I went to Norway. And with my friend, we hired the best snow kite instructor in the world. She's done many crossing. in antarctica um she's been all around the world and stuff and so for for a few days we were training with her learning a lot it was really you know

Easy in a way. I'm a fast learner, but, you know, it felt natural and everything felt good. But then one day she couldn't come. She got replaced by someone else, by another instructor that I didn't know much.

and um and the wind was really strong that day and the thing is i like in the morning i was like hey are you sure we should go kiting you know it's super strong it's really gusty and we decided to push it a little bit because we were going to go on a big adventure we needed some training we thought we were in a safe environment kind of you know but then yeah basically what happened is that the wind was really strong um we stopped

near a hut to eat something and I told him, hey, I think it's too strong, you know, now we should pack and go back to the parking place. It's like an hour and a half with skiing, you know. And the guy said, yeah, no, you really need to use your kite in those conditions to learn how it works. Don't worry, I'm next to you. I'm going to help you, this and that.

And I think I really should have listened to my intuition. You know, I had a bad feeling. And anyway, he was there next to me. I thought it was safe. We pulled the line and the kite went crazy and I took off. Really got like...

I don't know, like catapulted into the air. I flew maybe 20 meters, 30 meters or something. And when I landed, when I crashed, my... yeah my leg was smashed basically my my tibia and fibula was were broken my my leg was on an angle of 30 35 degrees you know totally destroyed

And I, and I got pulled by the kite for like another 80 meters, you know, because with the shot, I was so, I almost lost it, you know, and I was going towards rocks and stuff. It was in the mountains. And I was like, okay, now I remember thinking now, if I don't release, I'm going to die. So it's like I finally found it and I released, but then it took another hour for the rescue to come.

Yeah, on one of those ski, I don't know how you call it. Anyway, a motor, kind of a motorbike. Yeah, a snowmobile. Yeah, there you go. Snowmobile. And then they took me to the hospital. They had to straighten my leg. It was a nightmare. It was super painful. But it was not too bad. It was a broken leg. It was bad, but I was looking at maybe...

five weeks, you know, like a surgery and then five weeks and then working again. And then, and then a year later taking the metal out, you know, that was, that was the plan. But they, they made a first surgery. And for whatever reason, I got infected. It happens one or two percent of the time. You can get bacteria, you know, infection. It's a golden staff.

it's those bacteria they're very resistant because they live in hospitals basically you catch them there because it was not an open wound you know it was closed so it's really during the surgery that the bacteria came in and And so a few weeks later, we saw that it was infected. I had another surgery and I started antibiotics. And then six weeks later, when I stopped the antibiotics, the infection came back and then it went on for months.

The problem is when you have an infection like a golden staff, the bone doesn't heal. So nothing is going the right way. It's super painful. it's pretty nasty you know like the scars they don't they don't close it's it's uh you know bleeding and stuff like that and then and then you it just don't get better

And it can get worse, you know, easily. So we were always trying to control it by doing surgeries and cleaning surgeries and then taking more antibiotics and more antibiotics. And altogether, I had nine surgeries over the course of... 10 months. Yeah. So pretty much it was, it was bad because you know, every surgery it's all right, you come back to the hospital. We put you to sleep.

we open everything, we clean everything, we take more bone out, you know, more of the tibia out. We close, we put some antibiotics inside, we close and we hope for the best. And then three weeks later, when we stop the antibiotics, it comes back. And again.

and again and again and you the first two times you know you're like okay well you know this is this is okay this is gonna work you know but then the more surgeries you have the less you believe that it's going to work you know um but the doctors they kept on believing and they were like okay this is this is okay this is a chronical disease now basically the bacteria is in there we cannot always clean everything and we just kept on working on it and also taking more antibiotics

God, that must have been a mental roller coaster for you. Or were you able to stay pretty positive through this whole process? You know what? I have to be honest. It's been, I went into, like, it was dark, you know? It was a dark place to be.

because at the beginning, yeah, you're positive. You're like, you know me, I'm a positive guy. I'm like, hey, this is going to be okay. We're going to fix this. And then you start losing faith. And as soon as you lose faith, you're like, okay, why would I suffer so much physically and mentally?

to just come back to the same point in months because i i was just coming back to the hospital and we were just starting again you know reopen the wounds surgery again all the suffering all the painkillers all the you know, morphine and shit. And then to see that after two weeks in hospital, you go back home and then a week later, the infection is back and you have to fly back and start all over again. And the hard part...

really hard things on a physical body. I mean, you're talking major surgery nine times and antibiotics. I mean, you've been on antibiotics for almost a year. Yeah. And heavy stuff. The first one was the type of doxycycline. It's kind of light. But then after I had vancomycin through your veins, you know, so you stay for two weeks in hospital and the nurse comes four times a day to shoot you with vancomycin. So it's like...

And then all the painkillers, you know, I think the worst part was probably the painkillers because on some of the first surgeries after it was a little bit lighter, but it was extremely painful. And, you know, they give you painkillers like morphine and stuff. And I'm, as you know, I'm not a drug addict. I don't take any shit, you know, I don't drink almost. So for me, I've never smoked. So I'm like, you know, I came home to my parents. And in the middle of the night, woke up and I was shaking.

I was shiveling. I was having a fever attack, you know, and things like that. And I was a junkie. I really was. After weeks of taking painkillers and stuff, I was hooked. And that's super sketchy. That's not a place you... you want you don't want to be there you know so i was then you get swing like you get

mood swings you know like one day you're all positive okay guys it's gonna be okay we're strong we have the right team the right people and then the next morning the pain is killing you you didn't sleep and you're like okay this is never gonna end you know so that was hard Until, yeah, I mean, I started to seek for support and I'm lucky, man. I have a beautiful family. My parents were very helpful. My wife, obviously. So she's been great. The kids.

And also, I have to say, my partners, you know, at Red Bull, we have what we call the APC, the Athlete Performance Center. At the beginning, I didn't say anything. I didn't complain after the two first or three first operation. I said to the guys, well, maybe now I need your help. So I contacted the APC and I said, guys, I need your help. And Red Bull... directly said, hey, Tom, anything you need, we're here. We're going to help you. So they put me in contact with their mental coach.

Most importantly, they put me in contact with the right surgeons. And in Germany, there is one of the best hospitals in Europe to treat infection. had one of the big doctors there, Elg Riponoff, is a master, organized everything so that I could get the surgeries there. and red bull covered everything so i flew to germany and then they took the matter into their hand and from there it went better we did another three surgeries and we finally killed the beast but um i mean we think that it's

Now it's under control. I did a bone graft not long ago and it's getting better. But I was at some stage, in a moment, at a certain point... I was really looking at some options, you know, and maybe I should not, like I should have stayed positive and stuff, but at some point I, I didn't believe in it anymore. I was like, okay, we're not going to kill this bacteria. So maybe we should rather cut my leg and amputate and then take it from there. And I start to...

watch YouTube videos, you know, I start to talk to a mental coach about it. I was, I was really between you and I, I mean, really, I was prepared. I was, I was there. I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was, you know, I've, I've lost a finger, which is nothing, you know, but it's like, not that I, not that it's the same, you know, but really I was like, okay, if someone can take it, I can, you know, I can take it, I can take it. And I will probably.

I'll probably keep on pushing. I'll probably keep on with my career in a different way. It might even be an opportunity to inspire other people and stuff, but I'm not going to stop living. I'm just going to cut it.

and started over from here because i was seeing it as the new like the first day of my second life you know because one of a sudden okay the infection is behind and now I can start building again you know because this infection was just coming back and coming back and I was not going anywhere So that was really hard. And the doctor would say, no, no, no, we didn't lose faith and we were going to kill it. But I was really in a place where I thought, okay, well, we have zero control on this.

and nothing seemed to work at the time so i was like okay now i have to look at to look at options um and Yeah, obviously, if the infection would have come back in the last few weeks, that would have been really hard. But now it's been two and a half months, three months without infection. It seems to be totally under control. My body can take it now. I'm not taking antibiotics. And now we're just waiting for the bone to heal. So yeah, we're getting there. I'd love to hear about...

Your family, not only your parents, I know you're staying with them now, but your wife and your kids. What has this been? For them. I mean, it sounds like you've got a great support system, but at the same time, you know, this isn't your first injury. You've had some doozies. Obviously, this was the worst by far, but... You know, my own wife, we were talking about my friend who died in the ambulance this spring. You know, her...

She used to think I was invincible. She just didn't really worry about this kind of stuff, but she's changed a little bit. Now she's going, who are you going out with? Where are you going to be when I'm going into avalanche? rain and that kind of thing. It impacts the people we love. Yeah, it really, it sure does. I mean, Sophia is really strong. And I'm actually trying to think about like trying to take some altitude, you know, and to answer a question in a way.

Safiya is really strong and she's always been positive. We didn't know it was going to take so long, you know? So you kind of take it day by day. It comes to a point where you're like, okay, well, here's another day. We're just pushing through and trying to recover from this, you know?

In a way, it happened, you know, I didn't have any accidents since I had my kids because I felt I was taking a lot more margins. And it's almost sad that it happens in a sport that is not my sport, you know, also because I have...

really good insurance as if I get hurt in paragliding. But so I would have probably get pretty rich, but that didn't happen. But um, but uh, but now just It was hard to have to put her through this because the thing is at the end, and we always think that if we have an accident, that's our problem, but it becomes everyone's problem.

And when all of a sudden you realize, well, I'm dragging everyone in my troubles because of... probably my mistake you know and and so it was it was hard but um the family has been really really good like i received a lot of support and a lot of love and obviously i think sophie will be

extra careful or will ask me to be extra careful but even that she's never she's always kind of trusted me but she will for sure ask me to listen to my intuition more you know and get more tuned into it but anyway like

I get to a point where I don't want to get hurt anymore. Like this is really, you know, when you're young and I remember like, when you were skiing as as a pro athlete and stuff i'm sure that you knew okay well i'm pushing i break a bone here or there this is part of the game i'm just gonna go through this and stuff but i'm almost 40 years old now and

I don't see the point of it. Yeah, it sucks. I don't want to stay in hospitals anymore. All of those days that I lost in hospitals, it's depressing. And I thought... I could be walking with my kids on the beach or I could be freediving somewhere. I could be surfing or I could be training or I could be, you know, if I had been a little bit more careful, all those projects, like I had a...

super packed here with cool travels, amazing adventures, and everything was canceled. And the hard thing is that I could never say to anyone, like, the sponsor were like, okay, so you think that in May you're going to be okay and we can do this? Yeah, yeah, yeah, in May. Oh, easy. In May, I'll be good. And then the infection will kick back. And so I had to kind of learn that, you know.

things don't always go our way. And that's, that's how life is. And, you know, half of the thing that happened to us, we don't have control on it, you know, and, and we, we just have to take it as it is. And, but in every of those. difficult moments there is something we can learn you know and so i really try to be resilient i read a lot of books about mental coaching about you know things like that because i i also give motivational speeches and

Then I learned beekeeping online. I started with beekeeping. I'm making honey now in the Azores. I planted trees. I learned about biology, about agroforestry. you know, whatever I could do. I learned about AI. I read a lot of books. You know, it's just all the things that I didn't take time to do in the past. You know, I was doing it. One of a sudden I was doing it.

But just to answer your question, I think it's hard for the family. And it comes to this also. It's that at some point I was really struggling. And I was trying to get some help. And, you know, your friends will say, hey.

called a psychologist a mental coach things like that and I tried I tried a few times some people gave me some names and numbers and stuff but it didn't click you know and I in a way I do think that we professional athletes we we work a little bit differently maybe you know then i mean everyone is different but i think that for us um maybe for them it's more complicated to understand how we work or i don't know but i didn't i didn't find the right fit there

But then I thought I was in the hospital bed, really struggling in Germany after two and a half weeks in bed without moving, you know, and I was like, okay, who can help me now? Because I have to get out of this place.

and um and i thought about karina holkin you know karina is uh used to be a red bull athlete she was a professional skier and she was a base jumper and she sadly she had a massive accident she also lost friends and stuff before that but she had a massive accident and she struggled with it for years um also because she had an infection and so i remember that and i thought well maybe i can find her number i can contact her or something so i sent her a message on instagram it's like hey karina

You don't know me. I know you. I've been following what you do and stuff. And would you have time to call me or to talk? Because I'm going through a difficult time and I think you can help me. And the next morning, she called. And we had a wonderful... conversation she's really strong girl like amazing how strong she is and she said a few things that really resonate with me one was that she said hey until you didn't stop fighting you didn't lose you know

It's not finished until you decide. You can tell the doctors that you're going to keep your leg, you know, whatever they say, you're going to go through this. And this is the only way you're going out. Like if you abandon, if you give, you know, if you give up.

you're screwed. That's for sure. You have to think positively. You have to stay strong. You have to go through this. The first thing that she said, and it helped. And then she said something that really... really helped me was that she said hey Tom you have kids right and I said yeah yeah I have two kids and she said well you know don't forget that they're looking at you they're looking up to you

They see how you react to challenges. They see how resilient you are, how positive you are. They see everything and they're going to take you as an example.

when they're going to go through difficult moments in life. And then one of a sudden I realized everything that I had imposed to them, like all the negativity, the... you know sometimes you don't pay attention but you maybe you're you're complaining in front of them maybe more than what you should things like that you know and um and so i thought well it's true it it is

an opportunity today, I have an opportunity to show them or to try to teach them how to react in front of adversity and how to try to stay positive, resilient, to see an opportunity in every challenge.

um and that really clicked it changed everything like i came home and i was like all right guys we're gonna kill the beast we're gonna make it together we have to be you know bounded and and so it was it was wonderful and really it really helped um and from there the infection basically got under control and the pain got more manageable i could sleep a little bit more the kids were I love that it gave you – it sounds like it gave you a perspective on accountability in a sense that was really –

For those of you listening, I'll have the link to her film. I'm almost positive it's called Six Seconds to Joy. It's an incredible documentary. She just smashed herself. It's a great documentary and she's lovely. It was great that you were able to contact and make this contact with her. But I love that. I heard you talk about this on the podcast you did, the one that's in French. And it actually.

made a huge shift for me as well I have to thank you for that because I was also in a pretty dark place after losing my buddy and I can imagine it made me And my daughter was really close to him as well. And it made me realize that, hey, I need to lead here. I need to show her that life's going to be...

fine, life's going to be okay. We can move forward on this. It doesn't mean we need to forget him or leave him. We can carry him with us. But he would want us to... behave better here you know exactly it gave me accountability as well you know hey i i she's just seven i'm 52 i need to do a better job here yeah exactly i i was there like i was I was trying to speak to myself and say, Tom, get your shit together. I don't say it's easy.

Sometimes the easy way is to just get drunk and forget, you know, or get wasted and negative and frustrated and aggressive. It is sometimes the easy way out, you know, obviously. And also that sometimes that's what we learn. That's what we see on TV, in films, you know, that's culturally what's accepted in a way, you know, you should be sad and you should be.

But no, hey, you know, we can take it differently. And when you lose a friend like you did, and this is the hardest thing that can happen to anyone, lose a member of your family or a friend, it's... It's the same. I think we should allow ourselves to be vulnerable, you know, to take the hit. And we talked about it a little bit earlier, but you know what? This is fine.

We are men's or women's, you know, but we can talk about the feelings that we have. We don't have to bury it. But then also we have a responsibility to keep on going. You know, I take the X-Alpes as an example sometimes in moments like this, you know, this is rough and the weather is shit and you're under the rain and you've been walking for 90Ks and you don't want to walk anymore, but you go.

You keep on walking. You're in the robot mode. You keep pushing. And eventually, the next day, the weather is good and you get those perfect flying conditions. And then it's just a bad memory. But it's just about... keep on going you know you have to just keep pushing uh slowly steady and not sitting there you had to kind of take that on for your kids. It was interesting because when I heard you say that, like you said, it is hard.

But it's also, in some ways, it was easy to just make a shift. Just, you know what, tomorrow I'm getting up, I'm going to be different. I've gone through a lot in my life, as you have. I mean, this was my self-talk. Gavin, you've been through a lot of shit, dude. You've been hurt. You've had a bunch of stuff. You've been in worse places. Remember him. Grieve.

But not too much. Move on now. It's time. And that really helped me. And I think, like you said, when we were talking before, that's what my buddy would have wanted as well. That's why I asked you about the family. As supportive as they have been, has there been any talk of, you know, hey, maybe we should take up chess in the future? Is there any reluctance from them?

you're still shooting for your 10th X-Alps here in June. Yeah, you know, it's again, like I learned from my mistake, you know, and this... This was a mistake. I should have listened to my intuition. I'm a safe pilot. I know my sport and I know where to stop. And I think there it was a bit of, I was a bit confused because I don't know the sport. You know, this is not my speciality. It's no guiding. I was with an instructor. I felt protected and safe.

And I think that he felt that he was with someone maybe special because I had a rebel helmet. You know, this is sometimes it happens. They're like, hey, this guy knows what he do. But I had no clue. And I think that... It's a shared responsibility. I'm not saying it's his fault or it's my fault or whatever. I'm just saying that the whole situation was bad and it didn't feel right.

And I should have known. I know I have to listen to my intuition. I know my intuition is based on my experience, you know, and all the experience that I gathered all over the years and stuff. There's a wise guy named Tom de Dorledo that once said, you know, if there is doubt, there is no doubt.

You must have thought about that a million times in the last year. When I flew off, I knew I was going to break something. I was like, Tom, you've been there before. You know this. Why did you listen to it? you know the guy and why didn't you just just be you be safe as you are always and they're like and so anyway i think again i read that somewhere the other day it's like

We have controls on some of the things that happens to us, but many of the things that happen to us, we have zero control on. It can be a health issue. It can be an accident. It can be losing a friend or losing your job or losing a sponsor. Some of the things that it's just, it's nuts.

It's not your fault. It's not anyone's fault, you know, but it's just shit happens. And this is life. And so on all those things that you don't control, you can always kind of look back and say, oh, I made a mistake or this or that and try to. But anyway, it happened.

And now the only way out is the way it's forward. You know, it's like, how do I shift this? How do I take it as an opportunity to? And one of a sudden I realized like I was always kind of a, in the last 15 years, I was always in a hurry. You know, like going from one expedition to the other, to a plane, to the next flight, to this, to that Rebel Exiles adventure, things. You know, my family name is Tom the Dolodot. And I remember the guys from Cross Country Magazine called me Tom.

do a lot you know like kind of twitch my name too because i was i would never stop and and one of a sudden like you forced to stop You're forced to take some altitude and some distance and say, hey, you know what? I'm not going to fly for the next month. I'm not going to go anywhere. Now it's focused on family time. You can learn cooking because you've always wanted to learn cooking or beekeeping or read some books. And then...

I also realized one thing is that the world doesn't stop without us. You can sit somewhere for a few weeks and no one will realize. We always think, and especially us sponsor athletes. We have that pressure of producing content, of telling stories. And as you, I love to be a storyteller and I love to try to inspire people or share the knowledge and stuff.

But also, you know, we have to be able to take some time off and disconnect. And it kind of forced me to do that. And to take some perspective on life, you know, what is important, what is less important.

You know, maybe I should spend more time with my good friends. Maybe I should enjoy the little things in life a little bit more, you know, because all the things that we take for granted, and I know it's a classic, you know, everyone that goes to... to hospitals and health problems they'll tell you the same we think we have a thousand problems until we have only one you know and when you have a health problem

One of a sudden, all these little problems, you know, they're not problems anymore. You don't give a shit about it. Like, okay, this is not important. What is important is to be healthy and to be with the people you love and, you know, to do... good things for, for, for friends and be there for, for family and stuff. So I'm just saying like it, it gives you perspective. Um, and it teaches you a lot. So I'm not saying this happens for a reason.

I don't know if it happened for a reason, but I'm just trying to make the best out of it now. Good for you. Spent three days in the last race up at Tresime with, and Juergen was with me, you know, our safety director who I've become friends with. Juergen's a longtime mountain guide and has branched into other things that are helping support his finances, obviously.

We had a really interesting talk one day. We were waiting for somebody to come through. I think you'd already gone through. I didn't see you there. But he was saying that a lot of his mountaineering... other guides, co-guides that he's worked with are really struggling in the Alps. Partly because of climate change and the mountains are crumbling and routes that have been routes for 50 plus years are not reliable and they're killing people.

And he was saying, you know, that it's for these folks that have, you know, that have guided their whole lives are suddenly finding themselves in these positions where. They don't have much retirement. They don't have much of a security blanket. They're relying on their bodies, which are getting older and not as resilient, not as durable. Has this last year going through all this, has it changed potentially how...

you approach the future in terms of, you know, like you said, your job really is a sponsored athlete is creating content is doing this stuff. Is it scary? Is it making nervous? Has it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally. I mean, and I'm going to be totally honest with you here. I've lost a few sponsors this year. I've lost Garmin, who Garmin was a sponsor for.

more than 15 years. Um, and I received an email one of a sudden, you know, Hey Tom, we're changing the politics. Um, okay. We're not going to work together. This has nothing to do with your accident, which I, and I, again, I don't. old, any grudge or anything. Like I'm, you know, I'm that type of guy. Like I,

I had a good friend at Garmin for many years. He left, got replaced by someone, you know, people change, politics, inside politics change, you know, there's a lot of things, but obviously it got me stressed a little bit because then I'm like, oh, I'm not working with them anymore. And on the other side, I had sponsors like Red Bull calling me the next day of the accident or two days later and say, hey Tom, you don't worry about anything. We have your back. We're here.

It happens. Athletes get hurt. We know the drill. We're going to help you. We're going to support you. We're not going to leave you alone and stuff. And then one of a sudden you're like, okay. they're there they have my back you know they've been incredible uh partners like um like advents i called advents and i said hey guys i i couldn't work much this year you know i feel kind of bad to send you my bill you know because my invoice because you guys are supporting me but

I haven't done much. And they said, Tom, we knew when we signed a contract with you, we knew that this can happen. It happened. No worries. We're here. We're going to help you. It doesn't change anything. Most of my partners have been there. So that's great. Now, having said that, so this year, I'm okay. But having said that, I'm going to turn 40 years old soon. And when I was 21 and starting, I was like, hey.

If I make it to 40, I felt like 40 was being a grandpa. And I'm going to be 40 years old and my friend Horacio is 42 or 43. And we talk about this. We're like, hey, what's next for us? what should we do? And we both feel that we still have a lot to give. But maybe now we can start thinking about sharing the knowledge, you know, about...

exactly what you've done with your book and things like that. You know, I think this is great because you gather experience for all those years, you know, and then one of a sudden you think, hey, what about sharing it? You know, what about trying to see, do things a different way? During my time in hospital and at home, I do a lot of motivational speeches and keynotes here in Belgium and in France, in Switzerland.

for big companies, you know, to try to inspire their people. And that worked quite well. So now I have more of that and it pays decently. So I'm trying to find ways, you know. I also, I didn't tell you yet. I think I sent you a photo, but I could raise some money and buy a new boat. So we have a new sailboat now. It's an aluminum 45-foot monohull.

beautiful expedition boat um that is indiazor is now getting prepared for next year adventure and stuff so if i the dream job for me in five years time let's say would be to be kind of captain tom or something like that and inviting athletes pro athletes on board and helping them to realize their dream or pilots

who have two or three weeks per year, you know, they can escape and they want to go wild. They want to go to New Zealand or Pakistan or the Alps or do some baby flying, you know, maybe have a team of people like that that are self-minded and they really want to learn some stuff. maybe I'll do that. You know, I think I would like that. Um, but, but I'm, I'm going to take less risk. Yeah. And actually I'm going, I'm going next week to the Bahamas with the Red Bull athletes.

Every year we have a training week with the Red Bull athletes. So all the guys that fly. So it can be... the base jumpers the skydivers um i'm gonna you know most of those guys and many of them are are your friends too so you know all those guys but um the speed riders and the paragliders and stuff

And the team, they asked me to make a speech in a keynote about... risk management you know which is maybe i'm not the best person to talk about it but in a way i have some experience so um and so i'm going to prepare that and this is where i see myself in the future is To me, maybe the old guy that can help a little bit the younger generation to grow and avoid the mistakes that I've done. Maybe, in a way. It's interesting. You know, we talk about this with...

The best mistakes are the cheap mistakes, right? The ones that don't break you for a year. But it's hard to navigate risk without making mistakes. You know, I'm just hearing your story, you know, getting hurt in a sport that wasn't really yours. I have the same story with mountain biking. Never to the extent, you know, but I went over the handlebars on my mountain bike before the 2017 race and had surgery in October. And it was a real race. You know, I did the hyperbaric chamber.

I did everything you possibly could to get, so I can still do the X house. But, and again, I'm not trying to compare it. Your accident's way worse, but it, it just. I couldn't go slow on a mountain bike and I'm not very good on a mountain bike. You know, so I basically just decided I'm not mountain biking anymore. I just had to make that decision.

If I can't go out and go slow on a mountain bike, then I shouldn't do this. And because it's my, the way I think about my abilities is sometimes beyond where I actually am. So with paragliding. That's my sport. I can do it with skiing the same way. Pretty much guarantee I'm not going to get hurt skiing. I should knock on stuff. That's a terrible thing to say, but I've skied enough in my life. I know it. I can ski really fast. I spent my life skiing. I'm a way better skier than I am, apparently.

I just decided when I went over the handlebars and broke my shoulder to bits, you know, I don't want to get hurt anymore. I'm too old for this. And I'm just, I'm leaving that one. You know, I just had to kind of write that one off. Without doing that, I don't know. It's hard, especially in our sport. We talk about intermediate syndrome over and over and over again. It's hard to get better without screwing it up. Yeah.

And the thing is, I totally understand your point. And I also, for example, I said, okay, I'm never going to do my motorbike license because I think it's too fast and too dangerous. And so if I don't have the license, then I'm not taking the risk.

the problem with paragliding it's that it's not even an addiction but it's it's it's our life like in a way for me it's been my life for 20 years it's been the way i make money also it's been who i am in a way you know like um yeah all my friends my best friends you know those adventures the access to the world for me it's paragliding yeah and i have to say like in a way i didn't miss it like it's weird

Not that I had enough because I love flying. But for the last month, the first thing I think about is maybe not going back to flying. I just want to walk and go swimming and go maybe... But what I know is that as soon as I will go back into it, I will realize, oh, that feels good.

I wrote somewhere on the paper the few things that are my goals, you know. One of the goals was to be at this Red Bull X house and trying to recover for that, which is, I think, a bit difficult. But if it's not this one, it's going to be in two years. But to do... one more Red Bull XL at least for the 10th time. It's going to be my 10th Red Bull XL. I wrote that on a paper and I wrote also on a paper that I wanted to fly a tandem with my son again, to fly with Jack.

And I think that's, for me, that's super important. Like it's, it's some of the things I want to do and I will go back into paragliding. That's, I cannot stop paragliding, you know, but in everything that we'll do, I will be extra careful. And I think that sometimes, especially as a pro athlete, for example, you get to a place where you need to do a demo. There's a big crowd, 3,000 people. They're waiting for you to do something.

you have the pressure, you know, a bit of pressure. Competing, it's the same, you have a bit of pressure. Big sponsors, big event, you have a bit of pressure. I used to put pressure on myself, you know, for things like that. But now I think I'm just going to say, hey guys, I've been there. I've done.

Many days in the hospital, you know, I know what I can do and what I can't do. And I'm not going to take extra risk here. And if something happens, because something can always happen, we know it. Some of the best pilots. in the world had accidents uh we've lost t-mail last year you know that was that was terrible and he was probably one of the best of us um he was he was really a great pilot um we know it can happen and we accept that

But let's try to limit the risk as much as we can, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think that it sounds like you're moving into your 40s, buddy. yeah i am and i'm and i'm you know what you know what it's interesting because i had this discussion with the mental coach you know

We have a mental coach at the APC. He's a great guy at the Athlete Performance Center. Red Bull knows that, okay, you can train physically, but you should also train mentally. So we have that support. And I had a conversation with him. It was about where I see myself in the future. It was about risk-taking. It was super interesting. And what I realized is that, yes, life is different phases, you know?

you know sometimes i'm like hey what if i didn't have kids you know i could be totally free and travel the world and this uh but then if you think about it you're like there are people that would like to have kids and cannot have kids you know or so the discussion went around this and at the end of the day what we realized is like it's all about being grateful you know

You went around the world on a sailboat. You've done that. And now it's another phase in your life. And now you have a kid. And it's another phase in your life. And you're grateful for what you did. in the past and you're grateful for what you do now and maybe tomorrow it's another moment and it's going to be different but just enjoy the moment and be grateful and it's just we're going through phases in life it's not it's not the end of life you know

You would think in a world where being an athlete is between 20 and 35, you know, you would think that close to your 40, this is done. But no, man, there's so much we can still do. Plus paragliding is one of those sports where you can be really good at it at 45, 50, 55 years old. You can be a beast. You can be a master. Maybe you're not going to perform.

to the top level at the Red Bull Exiles. But you know what? I've done almost 10 Red Bull Exiles. That's okay. Been there, done that. And you too, man. We've done a lot. And it's cool. Like, hey, let's bring the next generation, you know, and let's help them to do things and to push the boundaries. And, you know, I'm not going to say we're too whole for this shit, but in a way, it's fine. you know i want to see my kids grow there are some things that are more important than than

hurt myself or kill myself flying and breaking records of things. So right now, that's where I am. I still want to give some things to the sport. I still want to be there. I still want to fly. But also I realized that you can do amazing things without taking a lot of risk. You can enjoy yourself flying in places without having to be the most extreme, you know, flies and really enjoy. Sometimes I enjoy.

flight as I said with my kids on the beach you know like soaring sides and I'm having the best time of my life so it's just maybe we should change our perspective on the show too you know the The whole X contest factor, you know, you mentioned Timo, one of the best pilots ever really. And, but I went to a therapist many years ago. I was dealing with something outside of.

paragliding totally. And he said something that has sat with me for a long time that in this town where I live, there's a lot of really high-end athletes, you know, be like Jackson Hole or something. Interlochen, a place like this where, you know, there's a lot of people pushing it really hard and a lot of ex-US ski team and ex-Olympians and this kind of thing. And he said, you know, I have a lot of these people as clients. And I was kind of surprised. Really?

And he said, yeah, because there's one of two ways that most of these people go in my experience. Drugs and alcohol or death. Often that one leads to the second. And I was really surprised to hear that. And he said, yeah, because their being who they are has become. the huckster you know they they they they chase speed their whole life or they chase risk and they chase and it just it's it's like the whole base jumping wingsuiting conundrum right yeah

Where do you get the next bit of adrenaline? You get a little bit closer to the terrain and you can only get so close when a little mistake is you don't have any, there's no cushion, there's no margin. We've erased the margin to zero, right? And so he said that, but as you get older, obviously you're not as good at it and that dries up. And so you either keep chasing it like that until you huck something that you don't manage.

You've reduced the margin to minus. Or you bury yourself in other. You know, you try to... You try to avoid it, like we were talking about with my friend or with your accident. The easy way out is just to avoid it, and often that's drugs and alcohol. And it was really interesting for me to hear that. This was quite a long time ago. This was 15 years ago. But it was a real kind of a wake-up call to me in a sense that...

Yeah. At some point here, you're going to have to shift the lens here. At some point here, you're going to have to make a different, you know, kids for us help that obviously, because you can start shifting your perspective, but. I don't know what my question is here, but it's... No, I get your point. Like, I think what's interesting is I think we're all different. And I see that a lot in pro athletes also, that they are some kind of monomaniacs, you know?

they wake up in the morning and they breathe paragliding, they eat paragliding, they sleep paragliding, there's like paragliding everywhere. Somehow I've never been one of them. I'm not saying I'm a balanced, well-balanced guy. I'm probably also some kind of psychopath. But I'm just trying to say that, you know, I have lots of interest in many different things.

I love fly fishing and free and free diving and sailing and mountaineering and skiing and friends and family and having a big party. And I really enjoy life, you know, and paragliding is just a small part of my life.

when for many top athletes it becomes an obsession you know and it's obsessions are never good you know i always say you shouldn't go too much into extreme and this is sad that we call paragliding sometimes we call it extreme sport which i'm not sure it is really an extreme sport it really depends on how you practice it but i really think that For me, I've almost shifted already with sailing, with adventures, with documentary making, with other things.

And I think that's interesting because we should all be curious because there are so many things to discover in life. There's not only paragliding, you know, or not only skiing or mountain biking. And I think that's very... do we say liberating, you know, like you can free yourself from an addiction or a super strong passion.

um i think it's like when you are in love you know you you can be in love but you shouldn't be madly in love you know you should kind of try to keep control in a way you know um to not lose yourself on the way and and so So I think that's a super...

That's a very, in a way, it's a deep conversation. It's interesting to have it with you because I think we are in the same place in life. Like we are thinking about, okay, what is the next step for us? And we've always been defined by what we do. He's the Red Bull athlete. pro skier he's the paragliding guy you know he's the guy who wrote that book and and and then you become that person and you think that's that's the only thing you are

But this is not the only thing we are. We are also parents and beekeepers and whatever. And I think we have, all of us, we have a lot of resources. And we can go any direction and we're ready to shift at any time. And it's just about listening to the inner voice that says, hey, this is where I am now and this is what I want to do. But maybe tomorrow I'm going to go somewhere else and do something else. And this is fine. And we should encourage it.

No. Having said that, if you make a living out of paragliding and this is your income, well, then you should start about shifting a little bit there too, you know, maybe investing on some real estate or starting a veggie garden and sell some fruits and, you know, like whatever. whatever it is, but try to be smart enough so that you don't get stuck.

That's the rule of investing, right? You want to diversify. I think we have to diversify when we rely on our bodies. They're not always going to be reliable. No, no, but there's so much that we learn also in those years of adventures and stuff. Like, you know, you're still a boat captain. You can also live a life of a... pretty much a minimalist because you know what it is to sleep outside for days. We have resources that we can use.

Look at you. Now you have a podcast. You started a super cool competition in the US. You have your community following you. So I think this is inspiring in a way, but you shouldn't wait. for the time to catch up on you you know you should be proactive you shouldn't wake up one morning and say oh shit this is done the coach doesn't want me in the team anymore and now what do I do now you should prepare for this um and um but uh if you look at paragliding for example

We could muck it up like you did. You had all the history. You had all the lessons. You knew there's doubt. There is no doubt. And sometimes things go sideways. You're just having fun trying to learn a new sport and boom. Yeah. But maybe tomorrow I wake up and, and I have another elf issue, you know, or who knows? And I, you know, like this is.

And this is one of the things that really strikes me. When I was in the hospital, looking at the ceiling and getting bored, I remember that the clock was ticking, like all day long, tick. Dick, it's like bored us, but it's horrible. Sorry. And then I was like, oh man, what would I do with all those minutes? You know, if I was outside, I would enjoy life as much as I can. You know, I was really...

I was really thinking, oh, I would go for a run and then I would prepare a milkshake and then I would do this and that. And it makes you, you know, I was, I'm still, I'm starving, you know, I'm starving for life now. And as soon as I can walk again properly and I will really, if there's one thing that I learned is that we have to enjoy every moment because time flies.

It was yesterday that I did my first Red Bull Exiles at 21 years old. It really feels like yesterday. And I feel old when I say that, you know, because... you know you always hear your fathers or parents saying hey time flies and it was yesterday that you were a kid and stuff like a child and stuff This is true, literally. Time goes really fast, especially if you have a busy life and if you enjoy it. It goes really fast. So we should better make the best out of it. That accelerator...

you really hit the gas too when you have kids. Holy shit. Life went really fast before I had a kid. And now that I have a kid, it's just, you know, you watch them and you go. You know, she said the other day, I just want to be eight. I just, listen, kiddo, enjoy it. You'll be eight in no time. Yeah, yeah. Slow down. Especially the beauty of it is that with kids, you go.

you go back through your childhood. I had this discussion with, who was it? Someone from the X-Habs who told me, hey, you'll see your kids grow and you will go back through. to your childhood, you know, and you go back.

go back through all those phases you know and and this is true i look at my my my kids and i'm like oh i always think i i used to think like this so i used to do exactly the same or you start remembering and stuff and this is super fun to go back through through this and also quite interesting to see obviously times times have changed you know and how we deal with kids and how our parents used to deal with us you know and how we try to do things differently and how

how you know open-minded we are and you know we're trying to do the right thing and i think parents are doing like obviously their best you know and but they i really think they're doing a great job This is kind of a new generation of kids raised differently with a different way of life, different mindsets than before. I think this is going to be really interesting to see them grow. Yeah, it's a challenging time too, though, with social media and screens and God, you know, I...

I think in a sense, our parents in some ways had it easier. It's horrible. It's easier to let them free roam. I mean, you're out in the Azores. That's a pretty good place to let them free roam. And we're very fortunate where we are here. I just look, I mean, she can just do it.

she wants you just go outside really what she's got to worry about is cougars and bears where I live and wolves I hope you know I really hope that by the time they're you know 12 or 14 or going into you know being teenagers and stuff that that the whole community understands how bad it is you know yeah social media and the impact of screens on on their life and stuff you know

I think maybe we're going to be lucky enough so that by the time they're big enough to have cell phone, you know, maybe we know more about the risk and the problems and the troubles that it creates. And then maybe we will save this generation because this is a nightmare, man. Yeah.

We're training Fallon whenever she sees, you know, mom or dad with a phone. She's like, that's bad. You're right. We're not allowed to have them in front of her anywhere. Yeah, same here. Like at my place, we don't allow screen during the week and they have...

They can watch a cartoon Saturday and one cartoon Sunday. That's it. And they watch it in English. So they learn another language. And since the very beginning, it was like this. The rule is super clear. No screen during the week. And that's it. they never ask for it during the week because they know that's it. But the problem is we should, and I'm not saying...

that everyone should do like this. Everyone does what he wants. You know, parents can decide for their kids. But I think as a community, we should all agree on something. Because for example, I mean, we're maybe out of the topic now, but, you know...

When they're going to turn 13 or 14, they'll say, hey, everyone in class has a cell phone. I also need one. But if all the parents would agree on saying, hey, guys, no cell phone, no one has a cell phone, then no one will complain. The problem is like... Yeah. It's the peer pressure, right? We're right back to what I started with. Peer pressure is a big one. There's a big movement here. My wife's a part of it to wait till graduate and not eighth grade, but high school.

Beautiful. You get all the way through. And there's so much. Oh, well, it's a safety thing. We didn't have any of that. It's not a safety thing. It's fine. They can be fine. Don't need it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, same here. We're really against it. And even I know, like, I'm not the best example. Sometimes I'm watching my phone or this or that, you know, we should be...

very careful with what we do because they are, they're watching us and they're copying us. But, um, yeah, it's, it's, it's a challenging time. This is also why I kind of moved to the Azores, you know, like, and I think that's also why you're in the mountains. It's like, we can offer them something that is slowly but sadly disappearing, you know, a life in nature, playing outside and, you know, being outdoor enthusiasts.

i love to be outside all the time and my kids they they go to swim in the sea almost every day they get to see dolphins and whales they go free free diving they go spearfishing fishing whatever you know and i think this is this is what life is all about uh it's not behind the screen so i think now there are amazing things happening behind screens you know we can learn a lot with ai now this is a revolution things are going to change quite drastically in the in the next five years i think

So we should stay informed and stay tuned. But at the end, you know, life is out there in the mountains and in nature. And that's where we should take them. And this is sad sometimes to see what, like the other day I was giving a speech. I went to a classroom of 12 years old kids. It was a few, it was not the other day, it was like a year ago, a year and a half ago.

And we had a conversation and one of the kids asked me at the end, he said, hey, how do you do to get passionate about something? How do you find your passion? in a way i was surprised i was like guys you're kids you know you should be curious you should be trying things you should be you know excited about life and stuff but it kind of felt like i was telling them about paragliding and my passion for flying and stuff and they

They didn't really, yeah, they looked at me, but if you gave them the choice, hey, you can go flying with me this afternoon or get on your cell phone and watch a YouTube thing, you know, whatever on YouTube, they would probably have chosen YouTube, you know. in that classroom. And that depressed me. I was like, oh, this is not where we want to go. We want to push those kids to go and discover and explore.

And so, yeah, I think we have a responsibility to take them with us. And you said that life changes when we have kids. And this is true. It really does. But, you know... And you're doing the same. We took Jack on the crossing of the Atlantic when he was 11 months old and we crossed the Atlantic with him. And we decided that we were not going to change our lifestyle because a kid was coming, you know. And obviously we did change it. We had to adapt.

It was different. But still, what they want is to have happy parents, you know. That's what matters the most. They want to see you happy and you want to inspire them to follow their dreams and to do their thing and to find their passion. So all in all, I think we shouldn't stop doing what we do. Yeah, I think

I think that's super important. Jeff Shapiro talked about that in one of his podcasts. I've had him on the show a few times. We talk about risk because he's done a lot of base jumping and a lot of wingsuiting and lost a lot of friends. So this question is an obvious one. what about what about your kids and what about and he said yeah but without this i'm not who i am and they need to

You know, we need to instill them with the passion. And this is what makes me passionate about life. And, you know, I think there's really something to that. I think, like you said, you just, we got to start thinking more about margin. Yeah, we have to change the culture. And this is really difficult. But, you know, I think we are on the wrong path in a way. For example, with paragliding and the XA contest.

People are looking at numbers, you know, all the time. Like who did the fastest triangle, the longest flight, the... highest altitude and i'm part of the problem i have to say like when we try to break records and we give credit to that you know this is interesting but we don't talk about we don't talk enough about

how much preparation it requires. And at the end of the day, is it really so important? And I know we had this conversation before, you know, about ego and stuff. We should leave the ego trip behind and say, you know what? It doesn't matter. Flying is about having fun with your friends, enjoying your time up there. But there is way too much ego. When you get on a takeoff and everyone flies, it feels like a race.

You're looking at your friend. He looks at you. Who is climbing better? Oh, I was higher. I was this. This is ridiculous when you think about it. Really, it is. But this is our human nature. You know, we always compare ourselves and we compete and we do this and who is the winner and the first. and the second and the third, and who was on the podium. Okay, great, fine. But is it really important at the end of the day? Probably not. Really, when you think about it.

you know it's not who gives a shit no no and you know what like I'm a professional paragliding pilot but I cannot tell you who was on the podium last year at the whatever competition you know like and this is my job Because why is that? Because I don't think it's so important. And I really think that we should be a little bit easier on each other and just... and encourage a different type of culture where we talk about enjoying it, enjoying nature, respecting the environment.

uh, being there with friends, you know, flying to our own level, accepting that, you know, this is fine. You don't fly your D glider. This is cool, man. No word. We should really, and us, we have probably you and I, we have a little bit of a, of a, of a responsibility here because some people listen to what we say, you know, or the paragliding magazines or the paragliding variations. We have to change the culture altogether. I really think we do.

And it will go through, you know, accepting that ego is bullshit and we should step aside sometime and just leave it aside and say, you know what, let's focus on what's important. And let's celebrate someone that says- This is a metaphor for life, right? Yeah. That's life. It is. It is hard to park the human nature in who we are. And there's so many things, social media, Xcont, all these things that exacerbate that chase.

That's what the therapist said when I sat down with him all those years ago. You keep chasing, you're going to end up on the wrong side of the coin. So we must learn how to set that stuff aside. It's hard. hard to do yeah it is hard it is hard and uh yeah i don't know let's see what happens next you know but um I want to grow old, you know? I don't want another accident, really. Yeah, exactly. I mean, the end game should be to...

become a cool old granddad and have some fun stories and have lived a very, very rich life that you can share. Right. And so, yeah. What you've been through, I think, is, like I said, it's not a cheap mistake, but we need these resets of perspective. It's just the same as when you get really sick. I always feel like when I get a really bad flu or something, it's my body telling me that, dude, you're going too hard. So the only way I can slow you down is to get sick.

You need some time in bed. Relax, man. Well, you've had a hell of a journey, buddy. I appreciate your perspective. God, you're patient in a sense. And I know you've been through the ringer and I'm sure there've been some pretty dark days, but thanks for sharing it all with us. Yeah, again, I'm not going to lie, you know, I've been through difficult times and I'm happy to share it with you and with, you know, sometimes I feel that it was not for nothing.

if I can share about it and people can hear it and maybe it can help someone somewhere, you know, and I, and I always, when I hear, because, you know, I, I have to analyze some of the accidents. I do it with the paragliding federation, you know, and sometimes I get in contact with the. guys who had accidents and stuff and if i can help i'm happy to help so if anyone goes through really difficult time now or had an accident or you know need some support to get out of the

of the forest, as I like to say, you know, to, to see the light at the end of the tunnel, they can just contact me on Instagram or whatever, you know, I'm always happy to help. So yeah, just shoot. And, and again, you know, there's a, after the rain comes the sun. so let's all stay positive you know and life is a beautiful thing there's still a lot to do and yeah it's only gonna get better from here

Tom, you're a gem, man. I appreciate you. The community appreciates you. Can't wait to see you at the X-Alps. Keep fighting for it, man. We'll be in the Alps together. That I'm sure. in the race or outside the race but we will spend time together there and Maybe we chat a bit more around the beer and talk about life in the good old times. And, and yeah, but it's, it's going to be cool to see you, man. I mean, I miss you and the guys in the Red Bull family, the Rebel League South family.

and stuff so it's gonna be really cool to be there all together I'm looking forward absolutely you take care and you send a big hug to the family and keep on inspiring us with the podcast and with everything you do Thanks, man. You too, buddy.

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