Hi there, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the cloud Based Man. We haven't done one of these in a while, but, an Ask Me Anything show was due. Got some great questions. One on the new new ish anyway, 2 liner c class gliders. And to answer that one, I reached out to Malin Lobb, who's been on the show. We'll have another full show with him up
here shortly. But he has been doing a lot of training for the race academy for the Brits and also half of Flyo and and handles a ton of the SIV there in Annecy and in other parts of the world. So we get into c class 2 line gliners with Malin, and then a couple questions from the field about first bivy attempts and what should you be thinking about, where should you go in the Alps? And when are you ready for bigger expedition type stuff? So I try to answer those.
And don't have much housekeeping other than to say again, apologize that we're a little behind here, but this this one depending on when we drop this should catch us back up and then we'll get back on our regularly scheduled programming. Hope you're having a good summer getting some good flights, having fun in the sky. Enjoy. Mallon, good to have you back on the show. We're gonna do a proper full length show here in a little bit, but
you're traveling with your family. And I just got back, and we're gonna attack this question that came in for this Ask Me Anything show about 2 liner Sea Wings. This is kind of a new breed of Seawings. Several manufacturers are making them and putting them out. And I didn't really have the expertise to answer this question. So glad you're here to to, be in my stead and answer professionally, because you know a lot a lot more about this stuff than I do, seeing how all these wings behave in SIV.
Let me read the question first so you all can hear it, and then, Mallon, I'll hand it over to you. I'd like your take on the new crop of 2 liner sea wings and things to consider when moving up from an enc3 liner. They are becoming popular where I fly, but I know of 2 accidents happening within the last 2 weeks. One happened immediately after launch where one side of the wing collapsed and the pilot ended up in the trees with
no serious injury. The other happened when the pilot experienced a frontal while on bar, low over training, in his words, the wings the wing disappeared only to come forward with a vengeance that he didn't adequately control and almost ended up in the wing. He landed and was able to walk out with a fractured vertebrae. In both cases, these are experienced pilots, but maybe not prepared for the extra control required
by a 2 liner. In the second case, the pilot mentioned the energy in the wing was so much greater than he expected. With only 2 rows of lines, it seems to me that any collapse is much more impactful as there is no extra line support to help limit the extent of the collapse. How can the difference between the 2 between the 2 liner and 3 liner be explained scientifically to help someone understand how collapses are different between the 2? So,
yeah, take it from there. You know, what's what's different from a manufacturing standpoint between a 2 liner and a 3 liner? How do they behave differently? What do we need to get out to the, you know, the flying audience who's considering moving up to 1? What are the what are the pros? What are the cons, if any? Yep. Well, thanks for having me back. I'm I'm glad that the the those guys weren't seriously or too badly injured.
There's there's quite a lot that could maybe be, described a little bit better by designers, but from what I see, because we get a lot of these wings now, in SIV, is if you are already on a a 3 liner c and you move to a 2 liner c, you're not gonna notice any difference. I've never got on a wing and and felt that they had more or less attachment
points. There's there's so much more involved in the spanwise cohesion of a wing of, how how solid and how much feedback a wing gives or how little it gives. And then there's a lot to play with aspect ratio, the shark knows, how far back the a's are. There and then the pilot itself, the the harness that you you have with it, there is there's more than just one thing
at play. But, essentially, if you didn't look up, and you're already used to flying, an an E and C, then, you probably wouldn't feel any difference. In terms of collapses and and how it's affected so unless you have collapse lines on the on the SIV, you can't pool collapses. So there's a a variety of other things that we, that we get into. But I think one thing that people don't do enough of is try and fly defensively, and use a a bigger input when they're getting a collapse.
So maybe a downside of having less lines is it's gonna be a bit more cravat prone. But if you're flying something with more aspect ratio, then that's gonna become a bit more cravat prone as well and potentially give you more feedback. But if you're going from the same aspect ratio, ratio, then you shouldn't notice much difference. Now they are more stable, so you should suffer less collapses. But, potentially, the collapses you do have are then gonna be
from more aggressive air. So it could be that pilots with softer wings or wings that collapse easier are are used to doing smaller inputs to stop those collapses, and those are the sort of collapses that aren't even gonna happen on the 2 liner. So they're you know, they might be bigger or more violent than ones they used to when they do happen, but they would still happen on their, you
know, their 3 liner ones. But it it depends on the wing you fly as to whether you're gonna, you know, feel it or not. Some wings, they breathe a little bit more. They move a little bit more. What you don't want is a wing that's too solid and not giving much feedback. But these 3 liner c's, I think, they're all really good in terms of their manageability and amount of feedback. There's there's definitely a spread, from the highest end to the the more
entry level ones. So there are ones that, if you're a bit tentative, that might be better than others to get into. But I think people have been hurting themselves on 3 liner c's for as long as they've been around, and, the 2 liners are no different. It all comes back to the pilot action. And at the time of a collapse, that's the most important thing.
And more are these wings more compared to, you know, a a d two liner or a CCC wing in terms of, you know, holding on to them when they go, you know, when they come back up? Pretty similar, different? How how would you compare them? Because you've flown them all. Yeah. No. I think I think they're exactly where they should be in the category. They
haven't been shoehorned into the c category. They are the way that they fly, the energy they have, the feedback they're giving, they should be directly in the in the sports, category. Like I said, if you'd you know, if you didn't look up and you're already used to the the power of of and feedback of the seas, then you probably wouldn't notice any difference. It's the the question might be, should most pilots that are on SEAS be on SEAS? That that's probably the the the the better
question. And then, you know, if if that person then hurts themselves on a on a e n c three liner, someone might not think much of it. But if they've just moved to a one with 2 lines, then there's something to blame it on. You know? I think the accidents that happen on these may be because there's this fear of the unknown. They might put it down to the wing
choice rather than the the pilot. But when someone crashes their 3 liner, see at the moment, people just see it as a as a, an accident rather than something from the wing. Interesting. Would you still kinda classify this in the same category as what we have talked about over and over again on the show, when to move up? Is it do all the do all the basic rules apply? It's, you know, when you're you're pushing the wing you're on as hard as you of the wing that you're on. You know, you
you've maxed it out. You're, you know, of of the wing that you're on. You know, you you've maxed it out. You're you you've maxed out the hours. You've maxed out your your your observing 100%. You know, you're not thinking about keeping the wing open, you're not looking at the wing all the time, You're you're you're in, quote unquote, ready. Is that any different with these? Is there is there any more kind of hesitancy? Is there any more, well, do you have x?
Well, I would I'd bring it again back to to Wing Control rather than well, it's it's both things. 1, when you're at that stage where you're flying a wing like that, you have freed up all the bandwidth that you can free up your your flying automatically, and that frees up as much bandwidth as possible to make good decisions. But wing control then, it it comes down to because you need to have done enough that you've you've covered all of the asymmetric collapses, the frontals, the autorotations,
unless you're gonna buy collapsed lines. But, really, by the time you're on a 2 liner c, you should've done enough collapses and collapse to rotations and auto rotations and stuff that you you understand that enough that you're not gonna let it happen again. And then really you don't need to bring collapse lines on the SIV because we teach much more about how to use the beads efficiently than we do about needing to focus on the collapses of of the
wing itself. So, like, the spin point on the bees, the full range of the bees, doing rapid exits and catching lot of with your hands and then finding the spin point. So there there's a lot of exercises we can do that the pilot starts to learn to use the b handles just as if they were brakes. The same rules apply. If you if you pull the full range and you leave it there, you're gonna spin you're gonna spin the wing. If you do a punch, you're not. And it's
just like that on the brakes. And it's it's getting pilots confident enough that they can use the b's to their full advantage because most people flying 2 liners don't use the b's enough. And then, really, they become safer. You know? The 3 liners have have only got a certain amount of travel on the on the c's. Even the ones with the pulley systems, it's not as effective as having the full travel
of of bees. So when you start to use, speed bar more and and you're happy to, you know, sit at kind of half bar, 2 thirds, being efficient, and using the wing like that, then that really, that's where 2 liners not only come out in terms of efficiency to wind penetration and and their glide efficiency, but also the safety of being able to keep the wing open
at speed. I really think that they're they're safer in that that respect than a than a 3 liner because you have so much more control of your angle of attack. I'm not hearing a lot of downsides, really. I mean, it it sounds like if you've, you know, you've spent some time with wing control, you've done done your SIVs, you've got the hours, then it it should be a a handy tool. Yeah. For sure. And the you know, there
there is different levels of them. Like, the the softest one we see is probably the the Nova codecs. That's really quite a gentle, well, you know, beginner one if you are apprehensive. Like, I don't really see a point in 3 line of c's anymore. So if you're, or, you know, at the high b level, you've got some good pilot actions. Because for me, it's not the amount of SIV you've done. It's the pilot actions that you've gained it. You know, it should always be pilot focused with SIV.
So if if you're a nice dynamic pilot, you've got, you know, good break range, you can stop rotations, you're flying your your EMB, well, you're happy to speed bar and and actively pilot, then I wouldn't even move to a 3 liner. So, yeah, I'd go straight straight for a 2 liner. Just get one that you know, the the the higher level ones, the the Arctic R and the the Photon, they've got the best performance, but they're, you know, they're kind of at the top of the the the category.
And then you've got the kind of the the Volt being, like, mid mid range, codecs being quite a nice soft one. So they they would have slightly different characteristics. Some are a little bit more punchy than others, but they have the performance. The the ones that are are slightly more slightly of of the higher level of the category, they have the best performance. So it's it's always a a trade off. What are you seeing, Malin, in SIV on these wings that are catching people by
surprise? Anything? It was the same as EMDs and CCC Wings on 2 liners? Yeah. Exactly the same. Yeah. They're they're not they're not the right wing to learn stalls on. So if you haven't Yep. You know, it well, you can, but they they don't take kindly to being stalled badly. They, and and it's like even even like a a high level c wing, you know, 3 liner, isn't gonna be very forgiving to a bad
stall technique. Most wings these days need the 2 two stage entry, which you're not gonna be doing on your first stalls. They don't like being overstalled. So that's that's really no different to most modern wings. Even, you know, high b's these days, you need to have the 2 stage stall, you know, dialed to, if to make your life easy. It's just these wings have a little bit more power again.
And they're they're just on the aspect ratio where you you can start to use a 3 stage stool and and choke the the tips a bit. But, really, that doesn't come into play too much. It's it's where I introduce the idea of of controlling the speed of the tips once you've broken the foil. You you don't really need it until you start getting into the the the d category. Mel, I wanted to ask you. That just reminded me of something that's related little unrelated.
We just had US Nationals out in Chelan, And the last day, we were all screaming towards goal, towards end of speed, and hit, a pretty violent, dusty that was about a 1000 feet over the ground and still wound up pretty tight where most of the gaggle hit it. And it was a rain of gliders. You know, the the edge of this thing was incredibly sharp. So if you didn't dive into it really hard, kinda got thrown out of the side. And so I was one of them that just glider
blew up pretty fast. And I'm pretty familiar with the 2 stage, and I've done a lot of practice with that. But in this case, being in such a hardcore kinda combat situation, I just immediately went tailslide and hope nobody hit me, because it was, you know, it was basically I gotta get this thing under control immediately, and there were gliders all around me. And, and everything worked out really well, but I've I've still been in I'm always imagining, you know, the perfect scenario
over the water. You're doing 2 stage, and it's so lovely. It's such a nice way to do it. But then switching that to a full combat situation, is is is that still your go to in a full combat? Would you still do a 2 stage style, or would you just go immediately tail slide and deal with it? Well, it depends what configuration the wing is
in. I I can't remember the last time I did a a stall in anger because I'd rather the wing was flying and then recognize the situation, that it was in, whether it's going into a rotation or parachute tool or, you know, if there's a crevasse or or anything. So there is no you know, even though they talk about 2 stage and 3 stage stall, it's it's more about just bringing more awareness to what the wing is doing at the
time. So if you've had a I don't know why you you wanted or needed to take it to the tail side, whether you'd had a frontal or it had stopped flying anyway, or you were in parachute all, which we call the shit zone. But it's it's just about having the situational awareness of recognizing those situations and then deciding what you need to
do with your hands. If it's already in parachute all or front tooled and not flying, then you can just go to tail slide because the whole point of the 2 stage stall is to manage the span as it drops into, a stall where if you're already there or you're in a configuration where the wing is hardly flying, then you don't need to do those those certain inputs.
So whether it's, you know, 2 stage, 3 stage, or whatever, it's it's that's kind of a very simplistic way of looking at the different phases of a stall. And, actually, it's just about recognizing recognizing what phase you're in and what you need to do with your hands. So if what you did worked, then that's what needed to be done. Yeah. It was it was it was a big asymmetric, and it was, you know, looking like cravat. I was you know, we were in a very, very thick gaggle, and it
was just for me, it was okay. I guess I gotta see what's going on, get control of this thing. And, yeah, it was pretty wild. There was a reserve toss in it. And it was it was it was a pretty dynamic situation. But I was happy with how it all worked out. Yeah. I I want some I want some footage of this carnage. It sounds, entertaining. Oh, it was awesome. It was very exciting. We were right over big, high tension power lines. And the I think Matt Beecherner was was was leading, and
he was the one that hit it. And his bank up was full Yahson style. You know? Just, hey, everybody come to me. It was it was basically a massive wing over. It was like, oh, that's a heater. Let's go there. And but then it was just Carna. I mean, there was at least 3, maybe 4 wings that just exploded. And one of them was was right after Alex almost hit me, and I was so glad he didn't. He was one of the ones that was really tight on me and kind of swerved out, and then he got hit and had to throw.
Yeah. It was a it was a proper Chelan day. It was great. It was it was exciting. Well, cool. That that's pretty I think we hit what we needed to hit there. Anything in closing you wanted to hit on these sea wings? Any other words of advice or caution? I think the the thing with choosing any wing is the the the problem with us humans is that we we don't know what we don't know. We don't know the level of our in incompetence.
And, you know, really, that is the the true the true power is to know the extent of one's ignorance. And without going on a course or speaking to the right people, you know, it's it's impossible to to to understand your level. You know, it's it's never the wing. It's always the pilot, or it's very rarely the wing. There are there have been some terrible wings made in the past which you can blame certain things on. But but generally, the the accidents that happen, the things that
go wrong are pilot induced. It's just a it's it's just a lack of knowledge. It's and it's it's nothing it's not pointing blame. It's just a very difficult thing to actually understand, yeah, to try and understand where where we're at. So, you know, if if you get onto a 2 liner and you think, oh my god. It's a 2 liner. Something's gonna be different. Then it will be. Your your, you know, your mental attitude towards it will be different,
which isn't gonna help things. So any wing you fly I think I said in the last podcast, like, I I don't look at what certification a wing is anymore because to me, it's irrelevant. I, you know, I trust on my, my my piloting inputs and my situational awareness. So if you're thinking of moving up to 1, really be, the other thing is just to be really honest with your own skill set because they're really easy to fly. Any wing when it's open is is pretty
easy to fly. It's when it's closed that the higher up through the categories you go, the more fruity, a situation you can get yourself into. So be be brutally honest with your your own wing control and and level, and then do something about it if there's any gaps in your knowledge. Find the pilots that can give you decent feedback or or, you know, pay and go on a course that where you can get that sort of, that feedback. Because for me, I don't care
what wing you turn up on. I I, I care what inputs you are doing, in what time. Well said, my friend. Malin, thanks, man. I'll let you get back to your family. I appreciate we all appreciate your knowledge, and excited to hear you might be coming over to the States for a future SIV. And, we'll catch up here very shortly for a full show. Yeah. Great. Good to speak. Cheers, Gavin. Okay. Next question for our Ask Me Anything show. I haven't done one of these in a while. This is fun.
It's from Steve Halsworth. He says, 2 of my close buddies just came back from the with special stories and spectacular photos, Matt Wilkes, who you've heard on the show a couple times, and Ollie Carr. I would love to have gone with them, but new job, so no time to prepare. And then he says, my question is how to know if we are ready. Even if we do the training both physical and in the air, how did you know you were ready for Alaska, for example?
So I take the position on readiness like I did with sailing all those years ago. 99%, and this is not a real statistic, this is just what I've seen, of people who are preparing to go offshore just prepare forever and never go. You can never really get the boat to where you need. You can never really get the experience you need. You can never get the equipment that you need depending on budget and all that kind of thing. So you just gotta go and learn and get out there and mess about
and make mistakes and get better. That's certainly how I did it, and it worked pretty well. I ended up going around the world a couple times, And that's been my approach with flying as well. You know, my first bivy with was with John Sylvester over in beer and it was a very modest 50 ks over the back from beer. And we spent the night high over Manali, Kinda got encased in ice. It was so
cold that night. And then in the morning, took off from right where we landed the night before and flew back over beer, and we were a couple thousand feet over lunch when people were just setting up to go. So, very special and kinda set the stage for many adventures in the future. But so I guess the answer is go for
it. Why not? Life is short. I don't think you're ever gonna feel fully prepared, but I would definitely suggest, you know, certainly from a bivvy standpoint, the sexiest way to do that is to be doing quite a bit of top landing and not have to hike up from the valley bottom. And top landing is certainly one of the more dangerous things we do flying. So, you know, having really good wing control skills, being able to touchdown and do top landings, in the mid of the day is certainly high risk.
So you wanna be have really good ground handling skills and just solid experience in that department, rather than just trying to do that on the first time you go out and try to bivy. So starting small is always a good idea. And, you know, bivy and multi day XC Adventures can be done in most people's backyard, some easier than others. But, you know, you can do little adventures that require very little prep, just a little bit of food. You don't even need a stove or a mat or
anything. You just sleep in your wing if you like to go that style. But I like having a pad and a bag and a tent and all that stuff. So if you can carry a little bit more weight, you can add more gear and be more comfortable, and just go do it a little bit. And then you'll gain confidence and you can start edging up into bigger and bigger missions.
What I would say when it comes to really big missions, like Alaska or the Rockies Traverse or, what they're doing over in Pakistan is, you know, you are going to be hit, no doubt, with the unexpected and conditions that are probably not recreational. So you wanna make sure your pilot skills are up to snuff, and you wanna be mindful for sure of things like high altitude and exhaustion and dehydration, all these things that
require more margin. As you heard on the show with Bill Beninati, who's a real high altitude expert, even people who are incredibly physically well trained and have thousands and thousands of hours in the sky are going to be operating at something less than a 100%. What that is depends on the day, but something less, when you're operating at high altitude. And combine that with much thinner air so you're moving through the air faster.
So places like the Karakoram and Pakistan and Bir, where you're really tall, just require a lot more margin, both mentally and, physically in terms of your spatial margin with objects. So you just gotta go in with the knowledge that you're gonna turn things down. You know? You're not gonna be operating at a 100% volume. So turn it down. Have fun. Try to keep it fun, and try to fly within the rails, within the margins that, you you've set. Try to avoid as much as you can peer pressure.
And, yeah, go for it, you know. Ships are safe in harbor, but that's not what they're built for. I like that quote. Last question for this Ask Me Anything show came from Derek Shuljan. Probably I'm probably butchering your name, buddy. I'm sorry. He actually says no need to make this onto the show, but I wanted to include it because it's a good one. Wondering if you had a suggestion for a 10 day intro to Volbiv trip in the Alps for someone like himself, then he gives some
background. I don't think background really matters too much. As I just said in the last one, I think we should just be going for it, doing these things. But many people who haven't been to the Alps find it quite daunting. It is a huge, vast region for flying. And I get this question a ton. Where should I go? And the answer is it doesn't really matter. The Alps are vast.
If you stretch it over into Slovenia and then come west all the way over to Mont Blanc and then start heading south down through Annecy and down through the Maritimes, all the way down to Monaco, basically the ex Alps course when it used to go to Monaco. There are just so many flying zones. It would be exhaustive and quite tiring for me to even start listing them here.
So there's you know, there are regions, you know, the Penzgal and the Zugspitze area and the, the Dolomites and the Maritimes and Fiche, you know, the the Wallis and the Rhone and the Rhine, these are all, you know, amazing areas. But basically, if you're just following the spine of the Alps, weather can often be quite different on the south side or the north side. Fern is your biggest enemy there. And if you're willing to move around,
then you can really follow the weather. You know, everything always comes from the west, so, you know, you can get behind it or get in front of it and move accordingly. You know, there's great public transportation all over most of the Alps, and so it's easy to get on a plane and and jump ship. But that gets pretty exhaustive, and you often
you know, weather moves pretty fast. So sometimes it's better to just sit tight in a certain area, that you wanna play in and try to session it as best you can. So, in general, I like to be over there. We get some great days in April, some huge big banger days, but they're fewer and far between than May and then June. And then typically July, August are your best summer months. September can still be incredible even though things are cooling off and the days aren't gonna be nearly as long.
July August tend to get more stable in the Alps. So to really cover distance, you've gotta be up in the much higher terrain, which means the either you know, in Switzerland, up in the in the Wallace, on either side of the Firkuh Pass, you know, the Iger side or more towards Coeur and Davos. But to get above the inversions, you typically gotta be pretty tall to start the day.
But you don't have to be, and you can still have really good flights even when it starts getting really hot and more stable. Valley winds become more of an issue in July August, pretty much across the Alps. So, on the big high pressure days, you can get more valley winds as things start to heat up. My personal favorite has always been kinda late May June because you still have a lot of snow. There's tons of water. There's water
everywhere in the Alps. You don't have to worry about that with baby, which is one of the great things about doing babies in the Alps. But I like June even though, you know, when you're up tall, it's, it can be quite a bit colder, so you need bigger gloves, more clothes, and that kind of thing. But it's not nearly as busy and, you know, the kids are still in school, so things aren't the public transport's pretty open and the roads are less busy.
Places are just less busy. As you get into July August, things obviously get a lot more busy, especially in the dolomites. The common thinking in the past was always that the dolomites, really the sweet season there is in September because they're quite a bit spicier and quite a bit stronger. I guess that's still true, although I like the dolomites. Anytime it's good. It's always really good down there. So, yeah, really, you can't go wrong. If you've never been,
Annecy is a must. You've gotta get there. You know, they have the Borns to fly and the chablis and a bunch of hike and fly races in that zone for a reason. Tons of that stuff is top landable. It's all very easily biviable, but it is pretty much everywhere. I don't know any places that, don't suit for multi day hiking and fly camping adventures. It all pretty it all works pretty well. There are areas like, the Sutrool that are a lot more treed, but still the valleys are great.
The tops of stuff are easy clear. There's grass everywhere. So not very specific, but hopefully encouraging. If you got the time and you can make it happen, go for it. You'll learn a lot. You'll have a lot of fun. You don't have to hike on any given day. There's gondolas and chairlifts everywhere, so you can take a day off, get on a chairlift, take it easy, or you can go hardcore. Hanse just finished another one with his son. I think this is the 8th or 9th
year in a row. This year, they made it from Annecy all the way to to Monaco. Just the 2 of them, doing their tandem gig. And at the end, I think they walked, 40 k down to Monaco in a straight line, so much more than that by real time. But it all worked, and they're they're soaked Stokes. And they've put it together from the start in Salzburg, where it used to be anyway, all the way down to Monaco, pretty special. So if those guys can do it tandem, you can do it. Have fun. Cheers.
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