653: Type “CH” and Get Safari

It's time for episode six hundred and fifty-three of the Clockwise Podcast from Relay, recorded Wednesday, April 22nd, 2026. Clockwise, four people, four tech topics, thirty minutes. Welcome back to Clockwise, a podcast that I wound in twenty thirteen, and somehow it's still ticking.

I am your host emeritus, Jason Snell, back because Dan Morin is out of the country, and that means legally I am bound to co-host clockwise across the internet from me is one of your regular, usual hosts, Micah Sgt. Hi Micah. Hello, Jason, thank you for being here.

Of course. I love it. I love it. I love being able to host clockwise without having to do it every week. It's great. It's like being a grandparent, I would imagine, right? Like play with the baby all you like and then you go home and then there's no more baby. It's Kinda brilliant. I'm looking forward to that part of my life. It's uh uh anyway, so I guess what I'm saying is clockwise is my grandchild. And I love it. And you give it lots of cookies and uh and popsicles and other things.

I don't care. What do I care? Right? Like we we we we I mess this show up when I'm here and then you and Dan have to clean it up next week. It's fine. Uh this is the podcast where we talk about four tech topics very quickly. Uh and to my left on this virtual table we have it is VFX Supervisor at Sandwich, Dan Sturm. Dan, welcome back to Clockwise. Thank you. I'm glad to be here and be your substitute Dan for the week. Yeah. We gotta have one.

And to my left, Chief Podcaster at podfeat.com, the wonderful Allison Sheridan. Hello, Allison. A lot of people Oh, there you go, I got a Dan. Uh I highly recommend that whole grandparent thing, Jason. Uh it it rocks. It's just as fun as it looks. I'm not gonna rush to get there, but I'm sure I'll get it.

All right. Well let's get started. I will kick us off with the first topic since I'm in the lead position today because Micah made me do that, which Dan like never makes me do, but Micah's like, Nope, you gotta go, Jason. So here I go. Um I was reading uh there was a lot of discourse. I defended Spotlight in uh in in uh macOS Tahoe. I switched to it from Launch Bar for a while, although I recently switched back.

um wrote about that Dr. Drang, the internet's friendly snowman, wrote about how he tried it and it was just too slow and he went back to launch bar as well. I was just curious thinking of l app launchers and stuff. if all of you use an app launcher of some kind to make it faster to get stuff open on your computer, and if so, which one? How do you use it? And if you don't, what are you doing? And why not? Dan?

Just like you and our friend Dr. Drang, I am a launch bar user. I had intended to give Spotlight and Tahoe a uh test run, but I have yet to Tahoeze my computer, so Uh I think the both of you sort of um killed that test for me whenever that time comes. Launch bar has its issues. I think my favorite feature of Launch Bar is how after every like update or reboot it like moves itself on the screen instead of remembering where it was supposed to be, but

The customization is great. Like I am a deeply broken person, so to launch Safari I type C H uh as my shortcut from back when I used to use Chrome as my browser. Oh wow. Wow. Oh yeah. Don't you're not letting yourself make the mistake of launching Chrome. I love it.

No, yeah, I have to type G O for Google, which uh uh yeah, I don't wanna do that. Um And then other than that, like, you know, the instant send feature of just uh hitting command space and holding it will grab whatever was in Finder and then you can hit tab and send that to a specific app, I find very handy, and I don't know if any of the other launchers have that, but

Um, I use that a lot and then other than that, not a not a ton of stuff. I mean, I don't my needs for a launcher are very specific, but not uh a great many of them. But I I'm still stuck on launch bar. Well, I have been and probably will continue to be, although maybe not after today, a Spotlight user. I have of used Spotlight from the get-go and it's second nature to me. And I think because of that I have given it a lot of uh grace and understanding.

And so even though now when I type in, I don't know, like audio hijack, for example. Uh this morning, and instead the Audible app from my iPhone via iPhone mirroring somehow launched. Um, I still say, you know what, I'm gonna keep using you because it's what I know and what I love. But now I'm eyeballing. Launch bar. I've tried Alfred and I've tried there was some other thing that I tried. It's that uh A recast.

Yes, yes, thank you. And hated Raycast personally, um, and didn't much care for Alfred, but uh maybe launch bar would be something because I am sick of spotlight. always indexing and never having anything that I actually want uh ready to go. Allison, what about you? Well I'm not gonna apologize for being a spotlight person. I I think it's fine. I've fooled around with a lot of the other options and all the ones that you just listed. I've tried all of'em and Yeah.

I I I like automation and doing all this cool stuff, but for some reason in my launcher I just want to be able to hit command spacebar, type a couple characters, hit enter, d boom, I'm I'm in. I don't do even any of the fancy features that came with uh Tahoe in Spotlight. I just uh I just use it. It's fine. But what I do find interesting is I don't know how this happened, but in the last couple of years I've realized I've started using the doc too.

I was never a doc person. I kept it hidden. Why would I ever do that? I can, you know, use my keys and it's much faster. But now I just like every once in a go, oh, I'm gonna press that button down there. So my piece is up on six colors, but basically I used Spotlight uh on Tahoe from the first beta until like this week basically. And it was because Dr. Drang wrote about how he thought it was slow and I thought to myself, Yeah, you know, actually

It is. It didn't used to be. So I'm keeping an open mind about Spotlight. I use Spotlight happily instead of Launch Bar after twenty years of using Launch Bar basically. Because it was fast and it did mostly the right thing. But there are so I have some notes for Apple, right? Like my notes are You need to be smarter. Launch bar is really smart at like if I launch one app a thousand times and then I accidentally launch a different app with the same first couple of characters once.

Launch bar's like, Yeah, you probably normally are gonna want that other app. Spotlight's like, Oh, this is the new app now, I'm gonna use this one now and it's just not smart enough. It just needs to get Smarter and it it it needs to get optimized because it is too slow. And then my big frustration is Dan talked about mapping. weird letters to Safari, right? Um you can map things called quick keys in spotlight on Tahoe, but only to the actions which are like shortcuts.

Not to everything else and I don't understand why. Because that's what I want is I want to be able to say, you know, look, guys, when I type home, I only ever want the home app. Ever. And Spotlight won't let you do it, but Launch Bar will. So I'm back on Launch Bar, but I'm gonna keep it open mind because I think Spotlight has gotten so much better. But I worry that in these lat latter releases of uh

uh of of Tahoe, it's gotten it's backslid and it's gotten worse and that's no good. So thank you all. Uh and if you don't use an app launcher, even Spotlight, uh give it a try because you can save a lot of time. Oh, I was my question was supposed to also include what I use it for, not just launching app I save a lot of like web pages like the let's say the clockwise sheet we use uh or my upgrade show notes.

Those are all favorites in Safari and those get indexed and I can launch those with a couple of letters too. And that's the best because it's very easy to just, you know, go type type, type, type, boom, and uh Google Doc opens in my web browser. That's awesome too. So thank you all. Dan, what is your topic for?

My topic is uh so I read this really good article on uh Petapixel the other day about basically how Adobe has um slowly abandoned their core user group over the past decade ish and sort of, you know, moving to creative cloud and pivoting to Enterprise services and how they used to have a

a very diehard group of creative people that would stand up for them and talk about how much they love their products, et cetera. But um it really got me thinking about how we're kind of in an odd place with software. I mean, I typically think of creative software, but I think in general we're We've got these

horrible enterprise apps that nobody enjoys using. We've got these other more consumer facing apps that kind of don't do what we need. And I was wondering I I was reconsidering my own relationship with software and I was wondering Which software companies of any size, you know, indie, medium, large companies, uh are making software that you really like these days? And who have you maybe lost some faith in, whether that be Adobe or other people? This does not have to be about Apple, I swear.

Uh yeah, I mean I would say one of the options and it's one that I use regularly is Rogue Amoeba's stuff. Um, you know, we we joke on the show and also joke with Rogue Amoeba folks about different bugs and things that pop up, but ultimately Um, we've in some cases, in my case in particular, find out that it was our fault all along. And Jason Snell comes through with a fix and everything is better. And so in that case

Uh I have no ill will and only love for the company. As far as uh those I have lost. faith in. I have seen Slack, you know, go super, super corporate and lose some of its original fun. Really, that is sort of the the way of things. We've got that term that we can't use on the show in you know what to vacation. And goodness, do we not see that play out uh again and again and again. And I think that that's, you know, part of what we've seen with uh Adobe doing. So yeah, kind of

A lot of a lot of stuff, frankly. Uh, Alison, what about you? Well, I don't wanna get Paul Kafasis's head too swole up, but my opening line was gonna be that I'm a huge fan of Indy developers rather than the big companies, and Rogue Amoeba is the best example. I mean, uh the support team there I when when they know me by name, you know, i i I'm I'm talking to'em a lot and uh they always come through. But another uh really good example of a small indie developer is a guy named Sindra Sorha.

He's one guy and he's pumping out small utilities that are just crazy useful. So many, so many of them. If you can figure out how to spell his name, uh cyndresorhos.com, everything he does is fantastic. On the flip side, on losing faith, I hate to say this, but one password is really on my nerves.

There's this bug that they know about and they've been known they've known about it for months and months and months. And it's where you log in using one password and it comes up and it goes, Hey, do you want to use one password next time to log in? Like no, I just did. So I have to dismiss that button every single time. And I can't get any traction with them. They go, Yeah, we know about it. Yeah, uh huh. We're gonna we're gonna do that someday.

So finally I started talking on uh Mastodon about it and a gentleman from One Password suggested we chat directly about this. And uh he says he's gonna do something about it. But I mean it's it's literally been like five or six months and it's constant. Um, the other one that I'm disenchanted with right now, I don't know if you guys know about the big kerfuffle at Backblaze.

They without telling their users decided to they're not backing up Dropbox and Google Drive files, even if those files are resident on your computer. Um if you there's a lot of confusion, a lot of misinformation going on. If you go to uh the Reddit for Backblaze, uh Backblaze has been posting there. They've got some pin posts that have

Sort of clarified it, at least explains why they're doing this. Um it's still unclear to me whether iCloud Drive is in there, pieces of iCloud Drive aren't. I don't know. It just come on, you had one job. I have stuff on my computer and you're supposed to back it up. So I'm I'm pretty annoyed right now with them. But and I'm not the kind of person who ever loses faith. I'm always like, no, I'm still there for you, but I'm disenchanted is the right word.

Yeah, I think a lot of what we feel and and just channeling everybody so far is there are a lot of software developers where once they get big or they get their funding or whatever it is, they realize they need to turn to an enterprise market or a particular kind of money bag that is full of money and they want it. And I like I on one hand, I understand it.

On the other hand, it is frustrating when they're pivoting to serve a customer who isn't you. And so um Adobe kind of started this, and that's definitely true. One password, it's absolutely true. Uh Slack. It I was gonna say Slack, Micah, which is like we all loved Slack, but like Slack is not interested in us and what we do with Slack is not what they want because we're not gonna give them money. In fact I can't give Slack money because

They don't make a paid plan that makes sense unless you're a a a big business. They they like don't even want your business if you're just a smaller community. And and so I'm using Discord a lot more and I I can't believe I'm using Discord'cause I always liked Slack better. Uh the another company that I'm gonna mention, it's too corporate, is Microsoft. Well, okay, I know it's obvious, but I had those feelings too, where I dropped three sixty five and it's just like

Uh yeah, I still pay for Adobe Photoshop only, but it is funny I am teetering on the brink where I think if they raised the price too much, I would just give up, even though I've been using Photoshop my entire adult life.

At some point I feel like they're gonna mess that one up too. Uh and I'm kind of amazed they haven't yet. The flip side is I end up embracing what we've been talking about, which is indie developers, people who are like us in that they care a lot and they care about serving people who care about software, not in finding the next giant money bag of

uh enterprise and you know large business or not receiving big venture capital investments or things like that. So yes, Rogue Amoeba, Fantastical. I'm using Mindstream. I've been using BB Edit forever, which is like a couple of people basically.

And uh and lately I've been using this app that's still in beta uh by two people I uh a person I know and a person I kinda know, uh called Indigo, which is like a uh Mastodon and Blue Sky client. And it's like I find it delightful Or something like Ivory, which is a Mastodon client, because it's written by a person or two who have a very specific idea of what the software should be.

And it's to serve a an individual human being. And that's the problem with a lot of this other software is just it starts out maybe that way, but at some point that you know, you let go of the balloon and it just flies away into the stratosphere and you just watch it go and er I mean when my kid let go of their balloon, it was very upsetting and I feel like that sometimes. It's like my balloon, but I loved it. Where is it going? And it's like you're never getting it back.

I I do feel exactly what you're saying, Jason, where like the the shifting priorities and I know this is a very like me centric way to think, but of course that's I I'm trying to get my job done over here. But like I use the cre the Adobe Creative Suite. I don't love any of their apps. I mean they're they're like

the best bad option, I guess, would be a way to describe it, which is a rude thing to say because they put in a lot of work on those products and it's i I I appreciate all the developers that I know that work there. But like

There are things about the app that are so fundamentally broken and they're like, Look, we added a new AI transcript. I'm like, can you fix the thing where if I import uh in an image sequence it it just uses the wrong time code? And they're like, Oh, that's broken? I'm like, Yes, it's been broken.

for decades now. You know, another part of this is that Apple used to be in that slot with uh Final Cut Studio where they kind of undercut everyone and said, Look at all of the amazing stuff you can do here and When they shifted to Final Cut Pro ten, it's just not usable for what we do for work anymore. I'm sorry, Apple professional people. It's just I can't use it.

So I'm just kind of stuck in the Adobe world and there's not really maybe it's because video editing is such an odd little category that you're not gonna have like a a one or two person indie dev usually pop up and like displace Adobe, but You know, to that article's point, you know, Black Magic Design released Resolve for free, which is an insane app. It's huge. It has like ten different apps inside of it all at once. You can edit, you can do color, you can do visual effects and sound and

Um, it's it's it's unpleasant to have to work in, but it's very powerful. And it's just it feels like a weird time for software where the

professional side is not being prioritized by these large companies. Some of the smaller companies can't really compete feature wise or just in terms of what the product might be. And uh It leaves me using some very expensive apps that I kind of like and don't really love, uh, and you know, just not feeling great about some of the stuff I use, which I I don't know what to do about it.

We have reached halftime here on Clockwise. I want to tell you about Steam Clock bringing you this episode of Clockwise. A lot of mobile apps, frankly, mediocre. They're not broken, no. Okay, but you notice the difference the moment you use something good. And Steam Clock Software builds mobile apps for companies that care about. Taste. They're a design and development studio based in Vancouver, Canada, and have been shipping iOS and Android apps for over 15 years. Their clients.

are growing tech companies that care about mobile, but don't have the in-house team to build something great. SteamClock works with companies to level up their apps. So they can go from it's holding us back to it's pulling its weight. Some of their clients discover the hard way that vibe coding your way to the app store just isn't a product strategy.

Steam Clock has deep experience shipping apps for iOS and Android, so they're good at helping come helping companies figure out the right technical approach for their situation. Their client apps have been downloaded more than 10 million times. and have helped five of their clients through acquisitions. If you're building something and need a mobile team that cares as much as you do, Steam Clock is where to start. Visit Steamclock.com slash clockwise to get in touch.

That's steamclock.com/slash clockwise. And of course, our thanks to Steam Clock for their support of this show and all of real life.

All right, we are back from halftime, and I have a topic for ya. We were just talking a little bit about this earlier. What is your browser of choice? Have you tried other browsers? And what do you like most about the browser you use? Allison. Well I'm gonna go simple again here. I just use Safari. I like having uh having everything the same from Mac to iPad and iPhone.

Even though I give up on having a lot of cool plugins and extensions, I do use things like the one password extension, which always says it's locked when it's unlocked and uh some of the other features you can get with Safari, but I just like the simplicity. I mean it's fast, it does what I need. Um, I do use a tool called Velia from guess who, Cindra Sorha. It allows you to have a specific URLs open in specific tools.

For example, we do my live show using StreamYard, which doesn't work for Safari, so when my producer slash husband sends me the link, I click it and it opens in Edge instead of Safari. I have YouTube open in Edge as well, and with Velia. One of my favorite ones is Zoom links open in Zoom instead of the default blow browser and then saying, Oh, now you have to open Zoom. It goes straight to Zoom.

So Velya is in a way is a browser switcher. I don't know if that counts, but uh I think my final answer is Safari, except when Velya sends me somewhere else. Yeah. I also use Safari, just like Allison. Um it is fast and it does what I want and it sinks everywhere without me having to think about it on all my Apple devices. Um and integrates with the passwords app better than Chrome does, which I use the passwords app now. I don't use one password anymore for reasons, see previous topic. And

Um, and so yeah, I just find it better. It is frustrating when I have a link that only works in Chrome or something like that. And I have Chrome for that. But every time I use Chrome, I don't like it. I like I find it weird and janky. And I will say, my wife uses Chrome. That's all she uses and I don't understand her. But she just does it. And I I like I can't so to each their own, but for me

Every time I've looked at Chrome, I thought, No, no, no, no. This is not what I want out of my device experience at all. So I uh Safari all the way. Dan? I I should just say Ditto, I guess. I mean Type C H and get Safari. Exactly. Uh long time Safari user. I mean basically for as long as I've been on the Mac, I think my Chrome days were from when I had to use PCs as well.

Yeah, I I keep uh I think I keep Chrome and Firefox around for for some if something doesn't run in Safari, but yeah, the integration everywhere, although Uh I had a brief flirtation with uh passwords, but I'm back on one password but only version seven because version eight is bad. Sorry, that's weird side topic. Um and uh I also do a little bit of the URL redirection stuff, but with a weird open source thing called finicky.

Uh there's certain URLs I need to open in specific apps. But yeah, Safari, best browser in my opinion. Wow. All right. Well, it's uh four for four. Also Safari. Um, there are occasionally things I need to open in other browsers, as uh Alison was pointing out. And now perhaps I have a new tool I need to check out. But for the most part, yeah, I like being able to sync between devices. I was just teaching someone about iCloud tabs the other day. Uh and

That's one of the features that I use regularly and makes all the difference. Um, I'm a also a tabs group user, but not a Safari profiles user. Well, it was both kind of get lumped together. So yeah. Um I have tried other browsers, many other browsers, and I like the trim-down, slim-down nature of Safari and its ability to sync across all of my other Apple stuff. All right. Thank you all for your answers on that. Let's go to our final topic, which comes from Alex.

Do you ever install automation software that you like forget about, you forgot you did some and then later on you have these inexplicable behaviors that take you ages to track down, or is that just me?

Yeah, I uh what for me, it's not so much the automations, although every now and then I have that moment where I'm like, Wait, where did that go? What what it what is it trying to do? What is it trying to automate? Is it automating the wrong thing? But for me I'm gonna I'm gonna spin this slightly different, which is um I have the problem where I have apps that I have set to the you know or they set themselves to launch automatically and I decide to use a different app.

and I don't I turn off that app or change its settings or whatever and what I find is then I the next time I reboot, it doesn't care. It's going to launch. I I at one point I had three different menu bar managers running simultaneously trying to manage themselves me and each other because they just wouldn't stop. Like I forget what I mean one of them was bartender, but there were like two open source

alternatives and they were all running. And I was like, why can't you die? Like I don't want you here anymore. So for me that's what it is, is that I I have these apps that uh that even when you tell them you don't want them to launch anymore They just don't care. They just keep coming back. Um, because their developers presumably have put them in various places that even Apple's UI can't find. So uh that's my frustration and uh i is uh is zombie apps that just come back from the dead. Dan?

Yeah, of course. Uh I I love a lot of personal janky automation and I do this stuff all the time. I I have had Hazel uh rules just like randomly open things or move files around and I was like, What what's that all about? The one that gets me the most though is

There have been a few apps that crash a lot. I think one of them is Text Expander. I think for a while it was Launch Bar, where I just made a keyboard maestro thing that like relaunched the app if it If it's a little bit of a little bit of a quit. Uh so some randomly I'll just see like text expander pop up in my face with an error message like sorry it closed. I was like, what is oh right. I told you to

reopen when you die. And that's very confusing. But the one that got me forever, which is not my fault, I swear, uh, is Better Touch Tool by default. Uh does the window snapping thing where if you like drag your window to the top or the left or whatever, it puts like a big box saying like do you want to snap it here? And I was like, what are you do who is doing this?

I have no it took me weeks to track it down because I have every automation app possible installed on this computer, but I have to finally I just have to turn that off because it's a default feature and better touch tool and it it uh it drives me nuts. Uh I'm gonna flip it a little bit too in saying that it's not that the automations are running and I forget about them and then things happen. It's that I will be doing a thing and I'll say, you should automate that.

And then I'll forget. And then I'll do that thing again. And I'll go, you should automate that. Oh, remember how you said you were gonna automate that? And then I'll forget. And then I'll come back again. I'll go, this is the third time you told yourself you should automate this. How have you not done it yet?

So I almost wish the things inexplicably disappeared and reappeared and moved around because at least it would mean that I finally did the automation thing I was telling myself I wanted to do. Uh Alison, why don't you round us out here? Well I love Jason's answer'cause the other day I was having trouble where I I'd hit like the enter key or the spacebar twice and random things would paste.

And I found out I had four clipboard managers running. Oh, yes, same, same. It was very strange. But the example I want to give you is great. I had this weird problem where two Apple apps, messages and notes. were spontaneously just disappearing. They weren't crashing. They were just vaporizing. I'd see the window just poof and it'd be gone.

Then it happened with a third party text editor called COD Editor, and so I knew it wasn't an Apple problem. And I searched far and wide. I asked Perplexy to search console logs. When I caught the apps disappearing, and it could find no crashes and no errors.

So weeks of this go by, it keeps happening, and one day I searched for the color picker with uh Spotlight, and it offered me a color picker from something called Supercharge. I vaguely remembered installing Supercharge, which is of course by Cinder Sourhaus.

So I started poking around looking, oh look, I you know, I got distracted. Oh, squirrel. And I started looking at all the different settings in supercharged. It was really cool. And in the vast amount of settings, I found a section that allows you to set specific apps to quit after a certain number of minutes of act inactivity. And sure enough, there was messages, notes, and cod editors set to quit after three minutes.

So if I hadn't inadvertently found color picker in Spotlight, which was grabbing the wrong app, I wouldn't have known I don't know how long this would have gone on, but I just I just cracked up when I found out it was me. It's coming from inside the house.

Well, that reaches uh we've reached the end. We have uh only time for a bonus topic. It's gonna be quick and here it is. What's the dumbest thing you've ever used AI for, Dan? Uh I like to Photoshop photos of my friends, as some of you may know, and uh sometimes I have really dumb ideas that I don't have time to open Photoshop or whatever app I'm gonna use to do that.

And I will have uh ChatGPT help me make really dumb photos. Uh one of them was uh George Foreman cooking on a grill, but all of his grills are MacBook Neos. I thought that was fun. Um It came out really good. Um but yeah, that's the probably the dumbest thing. I use it for a lot of important things too, I swear. Yeah, once we got into this question, um, I remembered that recently, uh on my grandma's birthday, I sent her in the mail there's this service that does pinatas by mail.

And uh my mom texted me about grandma's pinata and was essentially hinting, given that her birthday was coming up at the time, that she wanted one too. And I jokingly said something like, Uh I'll send you a pinata of me. And so I did and not really. I sent her an image generated to look like a pinata of me, and it's horrible and terrifying and unsettling. Bravo. What about you, Allison?

Well, when Sora first came out, I asked it to make a podcast with my husband and s Steve and me as the talent, and I put these words in his mouth. This is direct from Sora. When we were getting ready for this episode I kept wondering how to introduce you. Honestly, you're the smartest, kindest wife anyone could ever hope to have. Oh, that's so sweet. That's sore? Yes. And it looks exactly like him. I sent it everywhere.

Shame. Shame. Shame. For me, I was just gonna say asking uh Claude or Chat GPT about advice for home improvement things. Uh i it don't list don't do it. Like the advice I got was completely useless. It was like, oh This is one of those areas that I do not believe. They're like, oh, just try this. And I'd be like, that product doesn't exist or do this thing. It's like that's not how that works. Any amount of research I did, it was recommending things that were bad ideas.

So I'm just saying maybe stick to letting it generate funny images and write your software for you or whatever, but don't ask it for like certainly not emotional advice, but not even like how to fix something in your house, because they're gonna give you bad advice. That's just how it is. Uh we live in that world now. Uh that brings us to the end of Clockwise Micah, right? Did we do it? Did we manage to get to the end?

We have gotten to the end, and if you out there would like to get ad-free episodes with an extra unwound episode every week, you can become a member of Clockwise. You go to relay.fm slash Clockwise, you sign up seven dollars a month, seventy dollars a year to help support the show. It is indeed time to say goodbye to our guests. And Jason, I'll let you say goodbye to our first guest if you wouldn't mind. Thank you. Uh I d I I remember how this works. Dan Sturm, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you for having me. And Alison Sheridan, thank you so much for joining us. Always a delight. And that wraps up this episode uh of Clockwise. So we'll be back next week, but I won't be here, but Dan'll be back probably, unless there are like complications or something with his passport. And you never know. But until then, everybody out there, remember, watch what you say. And keep watching the clock. Bye.