I remember vividly being in the back of my class and seeing, like, 50 to a $100,000 in Stripe, and I was just in the back of my class. And nobody had any idea. In March 2020, Jacob Clark is in 11th grade. He decided to start a no code agency office laptop in school. Today, they do over a $100,000 a month in revenue and are now growing to build over a 7 figure business. Without any resources up front. This is the story of how he did it. Jacob, thanks for joining.
It's a pleasure to have you on today. I wanna start this interview with your early contacts. You're twenty years old today, running a company, doing 7 figures a year. If I was around you when you were a teenager, would I have been able to tell that you would be on the journey that you are today? I think, you probably really got mixed messages. Right? On one hand, I was a really bad student. I did a really bad school. I I barely passed my senior year. I just didn't have a a real care for school.
I think like a lot of other people, I just didn't like see myself, like, pursuing it long term. But on the other hand, it wasn't like I was, like, completely, like, just, like, in the back tooling my thumbs. I was, like, trying to do stuff. Right? So, you know, this agency was the first thing to work, but this is not how it started. Right? In grade 6, I built an app that with notified parents when their kids got to school on time.
So I had a problem of, like, remembering to tell my mom when I got to school because I was walking school. And I was in middle school. And I was like, maybe we could just, like, build an app for this. I had a friend that was technical. I took on more of the marketing kinda, like, design product kind of stuff. And, that was, like, my first taste of, I guess, seeing a problem and then building a solution for it.
And then through high school, I was doing, like, various different sales, whether it was, like, you know, drop shipping, Amazon, kinda FBA stuff. I started a couple, like, miniature startups or, like, apps for my school where they could, like, buy and sell stuff within the school ecosystem. Just a lot of stuff like that, that I all built just you know, on on on the code tools that later was like, this is super interesting.
How can I make this into something cooler, which then led to kind of the agency now? What was it about entrepreneurship and and marketing that that was attracted to you at at such a young age? I'm sure you're you're, like, ten or eleven years old. Like, what was it about that? I think I just, like, early on knew that, like, the route of school and the route of, I guess, the traditional path is just one that is very just stagnant. And, like, the the cards are not entirely in your hands.
I also think there's the the in some in some contexts, there is a little bit of a cap to it. Obviously, I mean, even if you're, you know, top SVP at at a really good company, you'll you'll do great and you'll make a lot of money, but you're you're not gonna be, like, potentially at your full potential. And so I think that's kinda what interests me of, like, I could kinda carve my own thing. You know, I didn't I never really liked the standard path of just, like, going to university.
I never thought I would do well. So it was kind of like a mix of, like, of both of of, like, those kind of reasons. What was it about the school system that you didn't like? I just, like, felt like I was like, I just don't know why am I learning this stuff. Right? I think I think a lot of kids feel like that. And, you know, I think there are benefits of school that I probably didn't fully, like, appreciate, because I'm not, like, fully, like, anti school.
I I just don't think it was for me, but There was a there's a lot of people that school benefits and with that school, like, they went they wouldn't succeed. I think entrepreneurship is a one path you don't necessarily need to take the school route. Sometimes it helps. Sometimes it doesn't. I think it's really just like, I just, you know, didn't feel like I, like, needed to be there in order to, like, achieve what I needed to to do.
I love your story because you're telling me before this conversation a couple of days ago, that in January 2020, you decided to start your no code agency, and we'll get into what no code is in the second. But in March 2020 is when it you really decided to double down on that. The pandemic hit, and that's when you were able to start focusing on it. For me, I had a similar thing. I had a phone repair business I was running up until March 2020.
COVID shut that down, and I had all this extra free time. And I wanted to use that time to do something with it. I just didn't know what at the time ended up becoming this podcast. But what was going through your head at the time and and what was that opportunity for you? Yeah. So I think COVID was, like, definitely like a blessing for me, in the skies. Obviously, it was, like, really tough to, like, be locked in my my house, but it allowed me one simple thing, which is just freedom.
I was no longer tied to, like, actually having to go to class. I could, you know, do Zoom calls, and that opened me to, like, one a lot more time to actually focus a 100% of my energy. I knew that I didn't wanna go to college since I was, like, probably going into high school, like great grade 9. And so all through a high school, it was kind of a race of, like, How do I figure this out?
How do I, like, kinda convince myself, convince my parents, etcetera, on, like, why it makes sense for me not to go? And, yeah, I could, like, explain it to them and say, I'm gonna do this and this, but obviously, like, actions speak a lot louder than words. And so I really felt this pressure to, like, figure it out. Like, like, what am I gonna do? How am I gonna sustain myself?
You know, I I I knew that my parents probably let me, like, you know, give me the support, but I really wanted to kind of prove it to myself. So a part a part of it was was really just trying to figure out, like, how I can make something work. And then I realized I really like no code in products and software. And I built a lot of stuff, like, for my school and for just, like, as hobbies.
And, at the time I was running, like, a real estate media kind of marketing company, And we we had we had mainly realtors. We also had some, like, local businesses as well. And I realized that a lot of them were trying to, like, transition during COVID. Obviously, everything was digital. And we had a couple local businesses looking to, like, build a platform that integrates with Zoom and a lot of and, like, kind of, yeah, community type features. And so I was like, okay.
Well, this is super interesting. I really like the space. I'm really interested in bubble and no code. And so I was like, maybe we can actually do this as a service. That's when kind of that light bulb moment, like, struck for me. And and, yeah, we we we took on that kind of first client, and then we're trying to replicate it with, oh, here, we can like, once I even knew that that was the thing you could do, then we tried to go and find other people to do the same thing.
Okay. So you're in high school, And you're selling to these companies sometimes or your stage start ups, sometimes enterprise companies Yeah. Often run by people maybe double your age. Yeah. And you're saying, hey. I can build what you need to be built in a very short period of time at an affordable price. Was there any skepticism on their end from being a high schooler and charging 5 figure projects? Hey. Is this kid even legit? What is he doing?
And if so, how did you overcome that skepticism and get your first client? Yeah. I mean, I'm proud of it. It was just I was off camera. And those are pretty, again, again, that's another privilege that I had with, with, like, the pandemic. Right? Like, everything went to zoom and Google Meets. And, you know, to not show your camera wasn't like a crazy thing. I mean, a lot of people were in the pandemic people aren't gonna ask questions because it's just a weird situation.
And so that kinda helped. When I would talk, it wasn't like this, like, you know, fifteen year old kid or sixteen year old kid talking. It was, like, not like he actually knows what he's talking about. And so I think as long as you actually, like, at the end of the day, like, people are just gonna look up to somebody that, like, can say the things that, you know, sound like, you know, better than them. And so I don't think age, especially now, is like as much of a factor.
There was a kind of a period, like, near the end of COVID where he started going back into class. And so Everyone was, like, back and, like, kinda catching up, and I was just, like, on my laptop, etcetera. But I would be, like, literally in the back of my business class. Like, no joke. Things would be, like, re learning about business stuff. And I'd be in the back, and I'd be, you know, on slack and on Stripe.
And there there was very, like, I remember vividly being in the back of my class and seeing, like, $50,000 to a $100,000 in Stripe, and I was just in the back of my class. And nobody had any idea my teachers had no idea. And, it was a pretty cool feeling. And then, like, we would do walks in co like, during COVID, they'd, like, they'd give you breaks, like, on a walk around the school because whatever.
And, I would talk to my business teacher, and she would just be like, what were you always doing And on the back of your class, and I would explain. I'd be like, yeah. So I run this business. And she's like, oh, cool. Like, and she likes her to ask questions. And I'm like, yeah, would you like, at the time, I don't know, maybe, like, 50 50 k a month or something like that. And that she was like, oh my god.
Like, he he wanted to, like, teach, like, she fully was like, do you wanna, like, do, like, a class, reteach people? And I think that was, like, another reassuring moment for me where I was like, Okay. Well, if the teacher is, like, telling me I should teach the class, it's probably Did you teach the class?
I think I wasn't, like, to be honest, like, confident enough to do at the time, but she fully was like, no, didn't wanna teach the, like, just, you know, have 1, like, hour session where I just, like, explained what I was doing almost as like a project. But, yeah, I I also had to, make a deal with all my teachers, because I was failing school. And I if if if I didn't if I didn't do something about it, I would just, yeah, fill up classes, then I would be held back.
So I made, deals with all my teachers. I I called all of them out, up, and I basically was like, look, I cannot go to class. On Zoom. I couldn't I couldn't attend the Zoom calls because I had other calls during them, real calls. And I said, like, I know it's like a weird scenario, but, like, I explained to them, like, what I was doing. And all of them, like, all the classes I needed to, like, like pass.
All the teachers were, like, super luckily, just, like, very, like, yeah, we'll just do the assignments and you're good. And so if it wasn't for that, if and I think that probably also plays into the fact that COVID, things are weird. Teachers weren't as strict. Everything was online anyway, so it didn't really matter. And, yeah, they agreed that if I did the assignments, I didn't need to show up to class. And then I'd I'd be fine. That's awesome. So that kind of made.
Yeah. I remember so I met with this, somebody who runs the Columbia entrepreneurship program. And I used to work at at the business school. And after our podcast started to take off, I I left to go on this full time. And I met with him just to learn more about what there, any other Columbia students are are doing in the entrepreneurship space. And this was probably like 6, 7 months ago, so maybe I think I was 18. And he's just like, man, you gotta come in to speak. And I'm like, me speak.
Why why am I speaking? And similar thing. It just felt just so weird, but, yeah, definitely wouldn't say that, like you said, age isn't the only factor. And is much better to know know your ship better than anybody else than to just be younger and not know what the hell you're talking about. For me, I think it was the combination of the 2. Right? So I had a little bit of experience in in marketing and and creating content a little bit.
But then in the experience I didn't have because I was a little bit younger that kinda helped give me that edge. Yeah. What advice would you give to maybe high school students right now who are looking at to you who who maybe wanna build their own business or or start something from scratch, what would you tell them?
I think you really to find somewhat thing that, this is like a pretty cliche advice, honestly, but it it, like, I think a lot of the times, like, the cliche advice is the and the people the things that people say over and over again, are usually the things that you actually should probably listen to. For me, it was finding something that I genuinely enjoyed to do.
I think that I woke up every day And it did definitely did not feel like a job, but I, like, this was something I was doing over my weekends. And now that I got to do it during the week, it just felt like that's great. Like, this is what I would be doing either way. Because that 1st 6 to 12 months, for some people that could be shorter, it could be even longer. Like, Not much happens, really. Right? Like, yeah, we got a couple of clients, but, you know, they're they're smallish clients.
I mean, I mean, big big for at the time, like, you know, yeah, you said 5 figures. But, it it it was kinda like one client here and then maybe a couple months, the next client, and it would it would slowly trickle in. And so unless you actually enjoy what you're doing, you're gonna just be like, well, it's not making money fast enough, right? Or like it's not it's not working or like, I just kept doing it because I was like, this is just fun. And I'm just gonna keep doing it and making money.
That's that's great too. And then probably a year end, and some then you kinda look back with, like, you snap your fingers from like, Like, I actually have something. I have a real business here. I also just think that, like, obsessing over what you do. Think if you look at any successful person, I think probably, like, a good majority of their success comes from just obsessing because if you obsess, then you'll, like, learn what you need to learn.
You'll, you know, you'll execute on what you need to execute on. You'll, you know, mimic or you need a mimic. Like, obsession is kinda like obsession slash focus is kind of what drives everything, and then that drives consistency, it drives hard work, it drives learning, etcetera. What are the key ways that you learn and are obsessed to be able to be the best in your field or or build the best type of company?
Yeah. I just I mean, I consume a lot of media and, like, you know, read and just, like, try to, like, understand, like, where the world's heading. And just kinda go down various, I guess, different rabbit holes. But I also think more than anything is just like learn by doing, right? Like, I think a lot of people, especially, probably younger entrepreneurs get caught up into the information frenzy and try to, like, listen to every single podcast they can read the next book. They they are good.
They're great. A lot of them. But ultimately, it's obviously not the same as, like, actually going to execute. There's so many, like, random things that won't get drilled into your brain until they actually happen. So I agree. I think there's a right balance to be created there because when I started the show, I'm just like, hey. I'm gonna record the first episode and publish it the next day. I didn't do any research about the industry Yeah. Or how podcast were successful in the past.
If I did might be in a totally different, step than where we are now. Yeah. But also might have just continued with businesses. So I don't know. But I think you definitely have to create that balance between the level of research. But over time, there's a diminishing return if you keep researching without taking any action. Like you said, And you also mentioned earlier, you didn't follow that rubric and the traditional structure that other kids followed. What's your POV on college?
Yeah. So I definitely have mixed feelings, and I think the, I was just chatting with some friends around this. I think the pendulum is kind of swinging back there was an era, and I think and maybe I'm just biased because this is the time where I was making a decision. But I think, like, maybe like 4 or 5 years ago, there was pretty the pendulum was swinging towards not going to college.
I think that was, like, really cool and that, like, you know, your teal fellows, like, you know, pure teal, like, inviting people to drop out and paying for them. And and just like, I don't know, just culturally, it seemed, like, the kinda, like, If you wanna do your own thing, don't go to college. That's the right you need to take. And while I do still believe that there are people that probably will be just as successful or maybe more successful by not going to college.
I think that college and and, you know, spending 3 to 4 years of your life in your early twenties to, like, develop yourself as a person, to learn what you're interested in, to meet friends is also not a bad thing. And, obviously, if you're going into, like, you know, like, law or, you know, medicine. Like, obviously, you need to do this.
But as far as, like, entrepreneurs or business, I do think there are, like, There are things you can attain through it that aren't, like, you know, maybe, like, hard. Like, you you can't, like, point to them, but they're kinda, like, soft skills. That people attain. And so I'd say, college is is the right path for some people. I think you kinda just need to know yourself. And I think honestly, the people that know that are not gonna go to college, like, my advice won't matter to them.
It's kinda like the the thing of, like, Elon when he was, like, asked, like, you know, if if if if, if you don't wanna, like, eat on chew on glass and stare into the abyss, then starting a company isn't for you. He said something something along along those lines, but he knows the people that are gonna go do that, like, you know, they're gonna do it no matter what he says. And so that's kinda the same thing we called. You kinda know where you you don't. I know we didn't touch on this much yet.
But when you started the no code agency you have today, how much did you start the business with? Nothing. Having Agencies are really great because they require no upfront capital. Right? It's a positive cash flow cycle. Right? I mean, when you think about it, You are selling and getting money in the door before actually delivering the service. It's it's it's reversed to WestStar would be, which is why startups need to raise money. And and it's not just agencies.
There's obviously other service businesses. There's there's probably strategic ways that you can, like, do that even in a startup. But when you can get, you can get creative around, how do I get money in the door before I deliver, even if it's like 50%. So that's what we did. Right? So, you know, we we had clients, We would take a 50% deposit, and then I'd use that money to go hire people to do the work, contractors, and then I would do the work, and then you get the other 50%.
And this is something similar to what we spoke with with Neil Parikh on the marketing side and and getting clients when he started Casper, he had to be hyper targeted in the marketing. Right? He couldn't just put out a bunch of Facebook ads and say, hey. We have these mattresses. It just wouldn't work. Right.
So instead, he would send flyers out to people who are just recently moving or college students that are moving into their new dorm room, which would allow them to be not only hyper targeted, but get potential customers where they're looking for maybe a new mattress. For your team, when you started, you were reaching companies and and customers, but they weren't, I guess, they weren't advertising that, hey. We we need help with this. So how are you getting those initial clients?
Yeah. I mean, a lot of it, for service businesses, like, one of the big things always just like word-of-mouth, like referrals. We had, like, RFPs, which stands for a request proposals. So those are like when you go to the platforms themselves and you partner with them, and then they send you deal flow. And so then you're there's also Google ads. Right?
So, I mean, you've inbound and outbound obviously is pretty basic, but, like, inbound is, like, you know, Google ads, people, like, intently searching. I wanna build a product. And then you have Outbound, which which, we're kind of pushing out more now because you kind of tap out of inbound at certain point. And outbound is like cold emails. So we experiment a lot with, now organic content, doing stuff like like this and and socials and Twitter.
Just to kinda get the message out around, like, what the capabilities are. For those who don't know, what is no code and how far can you take that? Yeah. So no code is kind of a new rise in tools that we've seen. There's some, like, kinda more there's different tiers of no code. Right? You have, like, what I call, like, kinda tier 1, which I guess you could say is, like, the OG, WordPress, right? Oh, WordPress essentially, created this new category.
Because at the time, like, coding a just a basic website required, you know, significant developers, and WordPress slowly bridge the gap. Then I think you have, like, the second tier, which should be, like, Notion and, like, you know, tools that, like, are pretty much made for you, but you can do some configuring. And, it kinda customize it in some ways. Then you also have, like, things like Webflow and, Framer, and you can build, like, really cool websites that are interactive and are custom.
But where I really hang out is I you guys call it like tier 3 or tier 4, which is like complex web apps, web applications, mobile apps, etcetera. And so for those that, like, aren't familiar, there are tools we use bubble, but there are a bunch of others, where you can essentially build pretty much any kind of web application using a drag and drop element kind of thing for the front end. That's completely custom.
So, like, yeah, you're dragging and dropping, you know, a feed, but that feed is customized, you know, any anytime you want or any anyhow you want. Right? And then to power the back end, to power the the logic. Think of it as, like, if if then statements. Right? But, like, building blocks, for those that are familiar with Zapier, you know, like, okay. You're running, like, a automation. You're this is triggered by Notion, then it links to that.
You're essentially doing that, but just, like, internally within the application. So you're saying, okay, if these are clicks this button, you're gonna take them to this page and then Once they fill out this form, you're gonna save that data and you're gonna create a new item in the database called user. And the user is gonna have an email and a password and a name. Is you're basically just doing these stuff, but it's just like in a flow, like, state.
And so, essentially, it's what's called no cookies. You don't require any code. Right? But I think people have this stigma that's like, oh, like, you're basically, you know, stuck to, like, the templated, like, ugly UI, and you can only build, like, so much stuff. I mean, for reference, like, we wanted to, like, do an experiment to see, like, you know, everyone loves Airbnb and so we wanted to see, How how far can you actually take this?
And we've taken it, like, honestly, a much further than Airbnb. Like, we knew that we could we built, like, video editing platforms. We've done financial apps and health apps. We've done internal tools that are crunching numbers and spreadsheets that are, like, bigger than you've ever imagined that we can to a tool. But we wanted to see, okay, like, how fast can we rebuild and design Airbnb? We wanted to build something called Airbnb teams or Airbnb trips.
The the idea is, like, if you wanna travel with your friends, picking a place, splitting the costs, like, you know, kinda just all the research that goes into it is pretty annoying. And it's actually, like, this is a real thing that I think they should do because I think a lot of people, you know, whether it's corporate or it's just like a group of friends going to, you know, Europe for the summer. They have to deal with picking a place, making sure everyone agrees with it.
Everybody has the experience of going into the group chat and sending a bunch of links. It's like this one, and then it's like, no. This one, like, And then that eventually just gets lost. So we we built a platform as an experiment to see how fast we could rebuild Airbnb, but with that, like, additional functionality. Think we designed it in, like, a week or 2 and then probably developed in another week or 2, so all in 3 to 4 weeks. And we basically had had Airbnb.
You would not be able to tell a difference. We can leave the link in the description. Yeah. That'd be great. You you would, yeah, you won't you wouldn't be able to now. And there's a bunch of other apps that, that we've, I mean, all our apps, you would not be able to know. And these range from, like, yeah, we do some startup stuff. We're we're really focused and where we really think there's, like, super interesting upside is again back as the internal tools.
Like, we're we're seeing such a rise in SMBs and enterprises looking to, like, also automate their systems and, like, replace, like, such annoying spreadsheets that people have to go into and manually update and nobody knows, like, what, like, what does what, And it's just a disaster leads to human error.
And so even a tool that's as simple as replacing a spreadsheet, for these organizations, that hundreds of people use saves like 100 of hours, maybe 1000 of hours a month, right, which which in return is, you know, tens of 1000, 100 of 1000, 1,000,000 of dollars in savings. So, that that's where we kind of hang out. And, that's really the capabilities of no code. You can take it pretty damn far. In your 1st few months, you've made in the low five figure range. Yep. How much are you making now?
We do around, I mean, obviously every month is different. So we work on a subscription model. So, you know, we're, we're kind of like a a fractionalized team for companies. And so we used to do, like, fixed scoped projects where you would come in and we'd we'd price it out and we'd be like, okay, it's gonna cost. $25, and you're gonna take 3 months and then we do it. Now we transition to, like, a purely monthly model. And so it's good because our our monthly revenue is more stable.
And it also gives the client a lot more flexibility around what they can do because they're not tied in. But, give or take. Our average month, we're probably doing around, you know, a $100 a month in in in revenue. Obviously, sometimes we lose a client, which can bring that down since those began a couple. So I would say, like, 80 to 120 is probably like the range.
How does it feel to be doing 6 figures a month in revenue, twenty years old, and managing a team, some of which are people older than yourself. Yeah. It's cool. I mean, I don't really think about it like that. I think it kinda just feels natural, I guess. And it's always been like that.
If it was the I also never really worked I had some internships, but I never really worked like a traditional job, which may have, like, maybe if I did, I would I went to cement it in my head potentially in a negative way because it's like, oh, I'm not supposed to be, like, talking to these people, like, in a leader, like, like, leading them. Like, So I could see people that, like, that's why you have, like, corporate execs who, like, will try to go work at startups.
And, it will, like, it will never work because They are just unable to, like, function independently because they are so used to people, like, telling them what to do. And so I think I had, like, the opposite of that, which is like, I never had someone telling me what to do. And so it just kinda was like the inherent thing to do. One of the founders I met here in New York City a few weeks ago is this guy named Ryan Sarant. So he runs this giant real estate. First, I know. He's a yeah.
And he has this rule called a 1000 minute rule where he tries to get as much value out of every single minute possible and try not to waste any of it. Yeah. How do you value your time and and how do you make the best out of your time when running the business? I think in the early years to set up the infrastructure, it's, really painful. I mean, you know, you're dealing with kind of everything, especially in the agency business where, like, Each customer is, like, pivotal to the business.
So, you know, I was doing, like, delivery. I was doing, like, a bit of sales, like, you know, marketing stuff, managing the customer is excited. Like, like, you're just playing every hat, but, you know, now we're, like, 4 years into it. I've established a really good team, but, like, kinda takes all that day to day stuff off my plate. And so now I'm really focused on growth and taking the business to the next level and refining operations and delivery.
So my days aren't as, like, back to back as they used to be. I think that's probably for the best because I think at a certain level, you do need time and breathing room to, like, think about the next steps. And that's kinda where we're at right now, where we're kind of like we've hit these, like, cool revenue marks, but, like, how do we, you know, 5 to the business.
So I, I kinda switch between, like, super intense focus where I'm, like, blocking off things in my calendar and, like, literally, like, tasks, you know, like, and then sometimes I'm like, nah. I don't wanna have, like, anything on my calendar besides a couple meetings, and I, like, try to spend the day, like, thinking or consuming media and just, like, understanding, like, where things are at. And one of the clients that you got was Eric. Interrogate Eric as a client.
Yeah. That that was a a funny one because, he I think his manager posted on Twitter that they were looking for bubble developers in particular. And my friend, knew the manager and, made an intro to us. And that one was, was funny because they came to us and they're like, we need to, like, launch in, like, 3 weeks. And we have, like, kinda half the platform ready, and we need somebody to, like, kinda finish it off. And so it was, like, super pressing.
Like, we had, like, 3 to 4 weeks, maybe even less. Honestly, it was, I think it was, like, 2 or 3 weeks. To basically, like, revamp this whole product before I was going live for like millions of people. And, we, like, kinda, like, just grinded. I mean, we, like, dedicated the whole team to, like, just this one project to we really wanted to impress them too because we knew, like, it would be kinda cool. And so we did it, and they're, like, blown away. We, like, revamped the designs.
We, like, implant a new front end, and they're like, oh my god. This is insane. And then we ended up working with them, like, probably like 6 to 8 months after that, like, as they're like full on product team, before they, raise just a lot of money. It just didn't make sense to keep things on bubble. For a company like that for Crater now, their consumer product they're somewhat reliant on, like, super, you know, big scale.
There's a lot of just, like, integrations there pulling in from YouTube, TikTok, etcetera. So something like that, it made sense to migrate and that, you know, they raised a lot of money. They could build an internal team to do all that. But we took it pretty far. I mean, we we probably ran their first you know, doesn't, maybe 5 to 10 cohorts, on that platform. You saw an opportunity where a lot of your current clients ended up wanting to go digital when when you're starting out the business.
In what way did they wanna do so? And then how did you how do you help them go digital? Yeah. So I mean, like, the one example is there's like a Tiguan Do studio. This is like our first client. And they, like, obviously, all their classes are in person, and they're like, well, That doesn't work anymore. So how do we, like, kinda continue driving value? But, you know, still charging customers in a more virtual way.
And so we built more of, like, a I mean, like, a, like, a fitness platform, basically, like, where you could, like, tap into live live, accessions and then, like, pre made sessions and the community features and, you know, still pay the subscription. And and that was basically what it was. It was just kinda to keep the business running during COVID.
And today, is your goal to continue building out the agency model, or is it to start building, like, maybe more of a venture studio type of business. What what's your long term goal for the company? Yeah. So we've we've dabbled in the venture studio. We've done one deal. With a mutual friend of, that we both know. And, that one has been so far pretty good.
It's still, like, early to say, but They've raised a good amount of money from great investors, and the product is is is being built real nice. And we've done a couple other things. We've done something with Andrew Young. If people are familiar with him on Twitter. There's like, you know, tech parties and stuff. We built, like, an event networking app for him that we partnered on I was, you know, bullish on, like, the whole kind of creator space.
How do you build products for them after doing the creator now stuff? I think I realized that it's really hard, to do two things. I I that's something that, like, actually is probably the number one thing I got wrong. And probably that most people got wrong is that, like, they they think that diversifying their focus is is the safe thing to do. It's actually, in my my belief is the opposite because, like, you're giving each idea, like, 20% of your time. And that equates to basically nothing.
I mean, like, you to make something to build a business, like, you need a 110 percent. Right? Like, you you like, even if you think, oh, I only need to do this, this, and this today, like, that's, like, the bare minimum, what you need to do to just, like, check off the box Like, how do you, like, take the business to the next level? What, what do you need to be doing to take that extra step? And you kinda just need to do that every single day.
That's kinda goes back to, like, obsessing over the product. Let's say I'm an entrepreneur. Right? And I and I have, like, 5 ideas or 5 things that I'm thinking through. Each one of them, I convert divert 20 percent of my energy on. You said, that's probably not the best idea. Yeah. How do I know which one I should go all in on and divert a 100% of my energy tours? Yeah. I mean, so if there's one that's starting to see traction, obviously numbers speak louder than anything. Right?
So if you have numbers to prove, okay, this is seeing early signals, then, you know, your best way to do that.
If that's not the case, then I think it just goes back to, again, like, what do you genuinely enjoy do doing the most what Which one excites you the most to wake up to be like, I think I could spend a 100% of my time doing this and and just focus on that one and and like never look back You need to give it at least, like, a minimum of 6 months before you make any decisions, if not 12, if not 18. Like, these things just take like, a long time. Right?
Like, the exponential growth of businesses is very surprising. Right? Like, the 1st year, nothing really happens. The 2nd year, something kinda happens. 3rd year, things are happening in the 4th year. Like, wow. Like, this is really cool. And it's a various exponential curve, and so you need to stick through the first, like, you know, 6 to 12 months to see that any growth. What if you learned about building an agency that Most agency owners don't know or or don't put enough attention towards.
I mean, we we fall into the trap of, of trying of a bit, kind of going back to your question. Like, I think a lot of agency owners fall into the trap of Agencies are really hard businesses. So how do you get out of the agency business? Right? Everyone's always thinking, like, agencies is gonna be the 1st, like, 5 to 10,000,000, and then I'm gonna go do software. Right?
And so a lot of agency owners try exactly what I tried is you you go, like, build software either with partner with people or you just build it and you hope, like, it launches us as a separate, SaaS. You know, Andrew Wilkinson did did this and it, like, famously failed. I think that is a, like, really big mistake is that, like, if you're an agency owner and this goes back to focus, like, Grass is always greener on the other side. Right?
Like, you're always gonna look at software and be like, oh, wow. Like, they only have to deal with customer headaches and stuff. But I think you, like, they're completely different business models, completely, you know, competing incentives. And so, you kinda have to pick 1 or the other. And, obviously, if the agency's already working out for you, then probably double down on that. What is your greatest failure? And what did you learn from it? Greatest failure.
I don't know if there's, like, one thing that comes to mind. I would say that that software development is really hard. A lot of peep people run companies where they have to build one product, and that's really challenging. And we build a co we run a company that has to build multiple different products over and over and over again. So think about the process of that is is pretty, like, tough.
I would say that, especially in the early early days, we've had projects that, were definitely, like, harder than expected and probably didn't reach the level of result that we wanted, and that would really take a toll on me because, you know, I think everyone in the, like, agencies are just, like, really top. The those 1st years is really crucial in order, you know, to push out good work, but with limited resources, limited team, Like, you're just playing on, like, 10x, like, hard. Right?
So I think I wouldn't consider that a failure, but just massive learnings around How do you actually execute against, you know, scopes? How do you actually, you know, deliver our project that meets, you know, 100% expectations How do you hire a great team to actually execute that for you? And, yeah, you kinda just evolve with the process and I just, like, obsess over how do I build, like, the best product over and over and over again. Because it's one thing to build a good product once.
It's another thing to build it, like, you know, three times a month. If, you know, three to four times a month, that's what our that's what we do. Basically, it's pretty it's a very difficult thing. And so that would be like my biggest, like, thing that I just have have obsessed advantage to process and operations. How did those projects not turn out as expected? What what happened there? The thing about software is there's it's so intricate.
Like, like, and clients oftentimes also aren't the best at communicating exactly what they want because it's so in their head that they almost don't even know what they want. And so I think we worked with a lot of, like, early stage startups or just, like, solo founders, even that, like, half had half baked ideas. And, as the project would strum along, they would start becoming more specific with their feedback and with what they wanted because it was, like, they were seeing it.
But when they first came to us and, like, scoped everything out, we would base it off what they gave us. Right? But then all the time, we're showing them designs and some, like, and some early development. And they're like, oh, so that button should do that. And, like, this needs to, like, load like this. Like, just, like, although the most random stuff that I'm sure you can, you probably don't think of when you're using a software.
And so that those stuff would just, like, pile on and on and on and on. And then it would be like a constant, like, push and pull. And so that's exactly why we moved away from fixed projects because, honestly, after years of trying different processes and different ways to, like, you know, set expectations, I just realized that the beauty of software is that it's ever evolving. It's always changing.
You can't create a fixed stagnant scope for something that is always gonna continue to evolve as the process goes on. And so, you know, how do we incentivize you know, both sides is that I think the subscription model makes a lot of sense because we're gonna be their, like, dedicated team.
We're gonna, you know, we're charging like a fraction of what they would need to spend, you know, for a designer, developer, and project manager, if they were to go hire those people, they're getting the same results, if not better, because, you know, we've done this a million times. And, yeah, they don't need to deal with, like, arguing back and forth because we're just there. Like, every month, we'll do exactly what you wanna do. If you wanna change the whole platform halfway through.
Like, that's fine because at the end of the day, you're basically just paying for our our resources and time. So And you mentioned after that experience, you wanna put a lot more time towards developing the right processes and and structures. What were some of those structures and processes that you now implement in the business? Yeah. I mean, first off, like, just documenting a process and, like, just outlining that is just, like, the first step. Right?
I mean, it sounds, like, dumb, but, like, so much of a process is just like in can be in your head and, like, just getting that on paper and, like, really thinking through it. But then, like, it just, like, is always evolving. I mean, the first process, like, there's no, like, none of it's used anymore. Right? And so you just kinda learn, you start tweaking things, you're like, okay, this could be better by this, and the client asked for this.
And now we're at the level where we create, like, an asynchronous environment where we have, like, a suite of, like, automations that are, like, being triggered to send client updates and to, like, update here. And it's, like, it's a machine, basically. That's, like, operating this. And now we're taking it one step further. We build internal tools. That's basically our main kind of thing that we do.
We we work with a lot of SMBs Enterprises, and we help them build really fast, really custom internal tools. And I was like, well, you know, we use Notion. Notion is a great tool. But it doesn't do everything that I would like. It's there's some nuances that you need to take, even, like, an extra, like, couple button clicks. For a project manager to do. I mean, it doesn't seem like a lot, but it, especially in in confusions and errors and then also is at the time to actually do it.
It adds up a lot, not to mention that we're not able to actually build a experience that, like, matches our process hand to hand. We're kind of constraint by what Notion allows us to do or any other project management tool. And so now we're in the midst of building our own internal tool. Kind of, you know, baking your cake and eating it too. And we're empowering and using AI to, like, even, like, make our our process even faster and more automated.
So, like, my goal is, like, how do we, like, completely replace the need for our project manager? And, It's, yes, it's kind of a scary thing, but it's also kind of an exciting thing, because I think that's gonna be pretty possible with with besides client communications, I think, like, in our in our case, like, user stories and scoping other project, That's like a lot of the left.
And I think you can use AI with a platform that we're building right now where we're gonna house all our information. We're gonna manage clients through, and then you just have a layer of AI in that. Obviously, just using, like, you know, OpenAI or some other model. But just like, fine tuning it. So it does exactly what we need to do, and it just, like, builds it right into the platform. Right?
So if we click a button, it's gonna, like, generate all series we need, we can move them across the board. And it's gonna be pretty cool. And so that's exactly the stuff that we do for other clients, but now it's like, how do I take the process to, like, a next level. Like, automate everything.
Yeah. I can't remember exactly who said this, but I remember hearing that Sometimes when companies decide to build their own internal tools, especially if it's an enterprise company, they're probably other companies that are looking for a similar tool. And if you can just take that internal tool and say, sell it to a bunch of different companies, you can make a lot of money off of it.
I think it was Odessa that that did something like that, but but if not, there are definitely other companies that have become massive just by taking internal tools and then just scaling it that way. Yeah. I mean, that's, beehive. Right? Yes. Beehive is one of them. Yeah. They've done that. They did that. But but he but, I mean, You could do that. I think that also, though, goes against kinda what what I was saying around.
Don't, like, it's so easy for people to, like, look at software and be like, I should make this my main business. I think software is probably a lot. If you're running a business that's successful that's doing well, it's generating money that you're happy with. Use software to, like, increase efficiency, increase, you know, savings, make more money, you know, reduce the amount of staff, make your clients happier.
And ultimately, if you were to sell the business, it'll be worth a lot more because you have, you know, software that you built in house that's custom to you that nobody else has. So I'm more in the belief of, like, don't just build the software and, like, replicate and let everyone have it. Yeah. Like you said, for existing companies, that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yeah. Like would be, I did. They spun out a morning bird.
Sure. Yeah. It's a great it's a great, like, ideation funnel, I guess, you could say. Yeah. Gotcha. And outside of lead time, what are some of the key distinctions between selling to startup founders and enterprise companies? Yeah. I mean, startup founders are actually tougher to work with. Oh, really? Yeah. I saw this I saw this guy, do an interview, and he was talking.
He's he's in real estate, and he said that you know, the bigger the deal, the easier it was, because the people are smarter, they're faster, they know what they're doing, and, you know, cash is more like, dispensable. And I think, like, that is super true with pretty much every industry, I think. The bigger usually the bigger the client the easier, it gets. 1, because it it's not their money at the end of the day. Right?
Like, when a founder comes to you and they're like, we wanna build this and we have $30,000. And this is my life savings. There's a lot of pressure on that, And they're gonna try to squeeze that $30,000 out, like, it's, you know, lemonade. Right? Where if, like, a VP at, like, a a Fortune 500 company comes along and it's like, hey, we wanna spend $50 to build this tool. And we're like, cool.
And and then, like, you know, it ends up taking an extra month And, you know, they, like, spend a little bit more. They're like, oh, that's fine. It's finally off. So we added some stuff. Like, they get how this world works, a lot more. And, and yeah, they they they just tend to know what they're doing when it comes to working with vendors and how to, like, make sure they communicate the right things and set expectations. Everyone's kind of on a on a clear wavelength from the beginning.
And so, yeah, besides the sales process, obviously, that's the one downside is that, like, they just take a lot longer to close. But Got it. And the last couple of questions, What scares you today? What scares me? I mean, as as as much as I talk about, AI and stuff, I do think it's kinda concerning, honestly. I'm sure we will find a way to evolve, but I just don't see it right now. From what I'm saying, I'm not, like, you know, front and center AI.
Like, I'm I'm just using the tools that are out there and using them and maybe in a more custom internal, like, you know, building applications around them. But, you know, given that what I think we're gonna be able to do for ourselves and what we do for other companies, I'm generally somewhat concerned around, like, what what are people gonna do that aren't, like, the CEO and, like, the executive team? I think there's there's, like, it's a good and bad, right?
Like, you will have agencies and you'll have companies that have a five person executive team. And that's it. And there'll be $1,000,000,000 companies. It'll be run by AA AI agents and and tools and automations. And It will, it will be insane. I mean, that would a five person company that probably should have been, like, a 1000 or 5000 person company will probably just be 5 executives and a bunch of now the good thing is like, wow, that's great. Like, the business world is probably loving that.
Right? They're like, that's great. We're gonna make so much money. It's super cool to see the technology advancing. But on the other side, that's a 1000 jobs that are now, like, gone like that. Right? And so some something needs to make up for it, whether that's, you know, universal basic income from the AIs. I mean, I know that's the discussion point. But I honestly don't think we're that far off from a point of where AI will be able to pretty much replace majority of humans.
Now, will companies actually do that is another question, but I think capabilities wise, it's it's pretty close already. And so I'm kind of part of the problem in a, in a way, but that's just how things are going, right? You can't stop it. I trust a human more than I trust in AI. Right? I think I actually think the biggest issue in AI is not the capabilities technically. I think it's I think it's just a trust.
Like, would is somebody gonna be able to trust in the eye over their clients over a project manager? Right? And that and it's not a capability thing because we already know the AI can can do a lot of that stuff. It can it can generate documents. It can generate, you know, site maps and flows and all that stuff. It's not about that. It's like, is is the information that it's actually providing? Is it right? And how how trustworthy are you gonna make that?
Like, At what point, like, the trust test would be, like, could AI, like, perform, like, medical assessments? Like, if we can reach that point of trust, then, like, okay. Then we can trusted to manage a product or we can trust it to do a legal document. And so I think the trust element will take a while. I think that'll take decades. Probably. I think it will as well because humans are much more different to interact with than in AI. Right? So we have more things to common with each other.
It's easier to have conversation. There's definitely a lot of differences and distinctions there. We're an AI. You're you're typing into a computer or something like that. You don't get to see someone's face in person. So that's where I think trust is built up, especially That's why I like a lot more in person meetings, especially when closing a large deal as I think there's just a lot more trust that can be built up.
Yep. With people than than doing it over a screen because I feel like that's just harder to do. Definitely. But for the last question, if I switch you over a phone, and you could call your sixteen year old self. Yeah. Would you call? And if so, what would you say? To be honest, this sounds like a I mean, I could just say, yeah. I'd call, and here's what I would say. I actually don't think I'd call.
Because frankly, like, I don't really, like, look back and be like, I should've done anything differently. I mean, I think I'm I think I'm where I'm supposed to be, and hopefully I continue to propel. But I think that, like, the mistakes you make are just part of the process. Right? Like, you shouldn't you shouldn't, like, wanna, like, circumnavigate that. So I I went in call because, yeah, I think I was doing the right things at the time.
Honest honestly, like, I was I was very driven and very focused. And, yeah, maybe I coulda gave myself a bit of reassurance around, like, school would be fine. But also I think that the pressure of of not knowing it would be fine. Probably drove me to work even harder. So, so probably not. That's the power of putting your backup against the wall. Right? Exactly. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that's a great way to end it. Thanks for taking the time to come on this show, Jacob. I appreciate it.
We'll have a link, down to your website and the episode description down below, creme digital, and for anyone listening, if that's something you're interested in, feel free to take a look. Awesome. Thanks for having me.