Hi everyone, I'm Rachel Zoe and you're listening to Climbing in Heels for your weekly dose of glamour, inspiration and fun. If I were to do an intro that I included all of the executive roles that this woman has held and the amazing recognition that she's gotten throughout her career, I would literally be here for days, Bosima or both. Saint John has been a major for US in marketing for some of the biggest, most successful companies around, corporations like Pepsi, Apple Music, and.
Netflix, just to name a few.
She's not only used her experience in marketing to educate others, but she also has shared her own personal brief story to empower others to live an urgent and present life. She also happens to be unbelievably fabulous and glamorous and unapologetically herself. I am so thrilled she's on the pod today, So every one, meet Boss Saint John.
I am so excited. So let's jump right into it.
You're like Gorge and you're doing it, so here we go. I want to talk to you about so many things, but I think I first want to talk about sort of like highlights of childhood like an amazing kid? Were you dynamic? Were you like I got to get out of here? Where were you born?
I mean? And I know, but I want you to share?
So yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, Well even before I get to that, can I just tell you that I'm so obsessed with the name of this podcast, Like I am, I'm a real like marketing nerd. Yeah, you know, like me.
Too, I'm a closet marketing nerd.
I'm like I could, I will really like, don't take me to a cocktail party and then like I get stuck in the corner with somebody who likes a little bit about marketing, I will goo. And so I saw theme of this podcast and I was just like, this is so damn brilliant.
Yes, well, because you know what that means.
You know exactly what that means. You know how hard that is. You know exactly the type of person we're talking about. You know, we know the ambition that it's going to require. Like, girl, if you slip a little bit with that leg stiletto, grab mom with the other arms, you know.
What I mean?
Correct, It's exact. And I always tell people it's like, you know, some of the amazing women I've had in here, They're like, you know, I don't wear heels.
I'm like, you know what this means? Like, you know what this means.
You know what this means.
It's about embracing the powers of femininity and whatever that means to you while you're crushing great.
This that's that's the whole thing. So that's what I first one to say.
I love that. Thank you.
It means a lot to me because naming things is everything.
Yes, the name, fabulous name. So how did I get here? Yeah?
I mean listen, share as much or as little you can give me the flash to like, really the meat if you want, whatever, whatever works for you.
I just like to know why you're you.
Yeah, I do feel like my child. I mean, I think everybody's childhood really does frame who they are. But I think there's some people who really come into themselves, like in their twenties or in their thirties or maybe even your forties. But I came to myself at twelve, it really did, you know. It's like, So I was born in the US in Middletown, Connecticut. My dad was getting two PhDs at Wesley University. He's an immigrant United States. Yeah,
He was an immigrant from Ghana. My mom joined him here and they were like the classic immigrant story, you know, my dad came to get a better education, better way of life. But he's truly a Pan Africanist, you know, like one of those like sixties type guys who was like, yeah,
power to the people, you know, were Africa. Yeah. And so what was happening at the time is that there was this you know movement it was WB Duvoyce called the Town to tenth, you know, where it's like scooped up the top ten percent of brain power and put them in the US and the UK and you know other places. My dad was one of those people. But he decided that he didn't want to stay in the US.
He went back to Donna, you know, and after teaching university, he joined politics and was in a government that was sadly overthrown about you know, three years into the administration, and that's what eventually drove us back, you know, to the US. But you know, we were in Kenya, and we were in California and DC and like all these places.
So my childhood was very chaotic. You know, I moved around a lot, and for me, I think part of the reason why I say I came to myself at twelve is that we finally settled in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Wow.
I was twelve, random, seventh girl. Okay, seven, great.
Right when you're like boom teenager, cool girl.
And I'm also super tall. I've been like literally six feet tall since I was like thirteen.
I just want you to know to me, that's like showing off. I just want you to I just like crushed my soul. I do know that I have zero sympathy for my friends that are like I was so awkward, and when I was in school, I'm like.
Okay, but at twelve, you don't want to be six weeks old. I'm telling you, okay. And then plus I was like okay, maybe okay, you're you're the one I did not. I would have happily traded places with everybody else, you know what I mean. And I'm serious, I would traded. I would have I would rather have been blonde, I would rather have blue eyes. I wanted to have white skin. I wanted to be shorter, I wanted not to top of an accent. I didn't want the food I ate
at home, like all of the things. I was like I didn't want to be different from anybody else in Cardas Breaks. But God bless my mother. God blessed my mother, who in our household. She's a stay at home mom. She was adamant about her pride for not just being black, but being after, you know, and it forced me into my own I won't even say acceptance with celebration. You know, it's super hard. It's pretty enough. Like imagine when the teacher is like calling out the names and I'm just like,
oh my gosh, she's gonna mess up in it. Yeah, the dread of it, you know what I mean. I was just like, call me some nicknames. I don't know, you know. But my mother was like, hey, look, when your little girlfriends come over here, you know, to come
hang out at the house or sleep over whatever. Finally, when I've been accepted into the cool girls club, you know, and they were coming over and I was like, please, can we have some pizza or like, can you get McDonald's or like something that they would like, and she.
Was make my friends, make my friends happy.
Look yes, and she was like, no, we're not going to do that. We're I'm gonna make them some Ghanian food and we're gonna eat that. And I was like, please, I beg you like anything but that girl, let me tell you how. My best friend, Summer okay, who was the epitome of like the call Springs girl right, her name is Summer. I mean, come on, give me a break.
Like it's like she's just oh, I have the visual. I have the visual.
You already have the blondest hair, the bluest eyes, the fairest skin.
Beautiful English. I got captain the cheerleading squad. That girl, Okay, someone's my best friend. And Summer came to visit me like two weeks ago, and my mom lives very close by to me, and she was like, can I know your mom's finished stew And I'm like, oh my god, her, you said, thirty years later, you're still asking for my
mom's Ghanian food, you know what I mean. And so it's that kind of you know, real middle you know, which would not allow for me to be ashamed of my name, wouldn't allow me to be ashamed of my heritage, wouldn't allow me to be ashamed of my food. So, girl, when I tell you that, when I walk into rooms and people are like, oh, how are you so confident. This room is a little bit but I'm just like, are you like you didn't grow up with my mom. But my mom was like, girl, they are going to
bend to you. You are not going to bend to them.
You are not assessed with her. I'm obsessed with her.
She's also completely bald and fierce.
She's probably like stunning with not like a rink.
Face exactly serves face for days, for days, but yeah, I mean she so for me, it's like, you know, my childhood was that, but it was also me being obsessed with pop culture because at the time, you know, it's like I just wanted to fit in. So I wanted to figure out, okay, like what what does everybody like to do? What do they like to talk about?
You know, what is cool to them? And I found that, like this very studied approach of like understanding pop culture just like normal conversation, was also a natural curiosity which I've never lost. So it's like, as a marketer, it serves me so beautifully because I want to know everything.
I want everything about fashion, I want on everything about sports, I want to know about film, I want to know about politics, I want to know out give me any topic, girl, I promise you I know something about it.
I'm I'm obsessed.
So okay, no, because you know, I so believe in And that's why I always like to touch on childhood because I do think especially my kids now are ten and thirteen, and I'm watching them form into these people, and I'm like, I don't think anyone tells parents when they have their kids how important that like zero to fourteen is right, Like it's all important, right until they leave you, it's all important and even after that.
But yeah, but that is the like give.
Them the confidence, get like, let them be them, try and teach them. It's okay to beat them. So what your mom did especially then, right because this is not a year ago, you know, I think easier now probably like good for her.
And also in the middle of Colorado Springs, so.
Okay, in the middle of Coado Springs to be like, girl, we're not going to have pizza hut, you know what I mean. She's like, no, we're not having pizza hut.
Having spinach still deal with that.
That's right exactly, And it's gonna be hot with Pepper and your little white friends are gonna have their rosy cheeks and you know what I mean, they're just gonna cry.
I love this.
Okay, So how long did you stay there? Like at what point did you peace out from there?
Where you were like I know?
Right? Well, you know, Here's what's so funny is that people ask me where I'm from or like where's home? I would say, you do, I'd say College Springs because it feels like that those were the like formative.
Years, like where you became.
Yes, but it was only like five years of my life, and so now I think about it, I'm just like, God, what a small amount of time. But it was so impactful to me as who I am that it's where I say I'm from. Although I grew up in so many places, and when I was eighteen and ready to go to college, girl, I was out of there. Yeah, I was like, first, give me to the East Coast, let me go.
But I would I would argue to say twelve to seventeen. I mean that those are the years where, like right, you make or break as it either fall off or you keep going.
Exactly like those formed of years solidified. I think my personality, you know, the curiosity they have about people, you know, my empathy for people, and for you know, everyone who has ever othered you know, it's like all of that stuff was born there.
You had a fearless mom too, which I would venture to say that like some of the most successful women I know, in fact likely all come from fearless moms, strong moms, and also like very often single moms. So
why marketing and where do you go to school? Because marketing is something that I always talk about because if I had a penny for every girl, right like as a senior in college, they're like, I think I just want to be in marketing, And I'm like, okay, I need you to understand the importance of marketing.
Yes, and like, yes, what of means?
It doesn't all?
So like marketing makes or breaks not just a brand, but a person. And you could take the least talented singer and they go to number one because the marketing.
They may not stay there.
But they may not stay there, I mean there are some tricks to help them, say for at least a little bit, you know what I.
Mean, talent.
But you're right, You're right. I had the opposite, like sort of upbringing where I didn't know marketing was actually a career for an opportunity. Like I said, my parents are immigrants. They were very clear that there were only three professions maybe four, that I could do. I could be a doctor, a lawyer, an engineer, perhaps an accountant, but that was only like the very like if you really couldn't do anything else, you know, sure, no kill me.
I was actually pre med in college Sewer. You know, I did all of the things, you know, but when I graduated, I definitely didn't want to go to med school. But I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I you know, I took the m cat like I did all the things, and then I said, okay, well no, I'm going to go to New York for a year. And my parents were very against the idea. They refused to you know, they would not support me in it
at all. Like they were like, okay, you go, you manage it yourself, like whatever you pay for your own way, do whatever you're going to do. We'll be over here waiting for you when you're read for med school.
Wow.
Okay, okay, I've heard this before. I mean, this is this is not uncommon.
Yes, but and the thing is that you know, it's like, look, I have a daughter, she's fifteen. I can't imagine how terrified I would be, you know, even at twenty one if she were like in some big city by herself, doesn't know a soul, you know, all that stuffe And so, like, I think back to what I'm just like, either they were like very confident in my survival skills.
What didn't give a.
Shit about me?
Like I'm like, which one is?
Look, I don't know where, you know, but you know, God blessed, Like it really worked out because I knew one person, actually one person that I had gone to college with. She graduated a year before me, and she was at Columbia Film School. She was getting her master's and so I negotiated with her even then I had the talent and negotiation of course, to be able to
stay on her couch. She had a roommate, her and her roommate's couch, and I would cook, you know, that was basically like my my contribution, and so I, you know, would get up every day. And again, you know, we're talking about twenty five years ago, so you know, there was there weren't cell phones, so there was the corner like the payphone.
Yeah, I was living there at the same time as it.
Set and Broadway under the train, the one in the nine across it, like on the corner of Floridita Human Restaurant right there. And what I would do is I would get up in the morning. I signed up for like a temp agency, and I'd get up in the morning. The first call was at seven thirty, and then you call every fifteen minutes until you got play someplace, you know.
And I would go inside of Floridita in between the times when I'd go to the pay phone to call, and girl, I mean it was like that was like just hard, hard hard knuckles, like just I didn't have enough money for food. So the very kind lady who I wish Rachel, I wish I could find this woman who didn't speak English, only spoke Spanish. But somehow we're
able to communicate, you know. And every day she's like I was too proud to also ask, you know what, I mean, to slide me like a buttered roll, you know. I And the first few times I was like, no, no, no, I'm fine, it's okay, it's okay. I just you know, I just want to sit down, it's okay, you know, But girl, I was my mouth was watering, and I was like, you know, so eventually one day I just I took the damn buttered roll and she was so happy and every day like I, you know, sometimes I
would and get a job. I want to get placed, and so then i'm you know, come in and just say bye for the day. She only knew a couple of words in English, but she would say like she would, she'd be like, you know, today's.
The day, right today, this is your day, right right right right, I feel and.
I will never forget it. Like even now, you know, in tough situations or like you know, when you get antsy about a big decision or a deal you've got to strike or whatever, I'm always like, today's day, Today's day. It's going to happen today, you know. And it really kept me going. And the thing is that, like, look, Destiny came to meet me on that corner of one
hundred and Twain Fiftreet and Broadway. I gotta I called in and Spike Lee have such This is like I tell you, Destiny literally came and met me at that corner, and I got a placement with Spike Lee because he had assistant. You're okay, but but here's the thing.
I mean, by the way, today was the day. Today was today.
It was today, that was the day. That was the day. Okay. And I walked into that office thinking, okay, well I'm here for like two or three days, right while he finds the replacement. So let me make the best of it, you know, like, let me not get in the way. But you know, blah blah blah. And again, like I swear to you, Destiny keeps meeting me in places. Because that man walked into the office that day and as he's passing by, I'm literally like, oh, you know, there's
Spike Lee. And he looks at me. I have like my hair pulled back in a tight, you know, bun in the back. I'm wearing like the only gray polyester suit I have. I swear you was polsyll Of.
Course it was you cud, you couldn't eat? What were you buy clothes?
Was gonna be exactly no. And he says, and he we're still friends now, and he remembers that his first thought and words to me were, oh God, damn it, they sent me miss America. And I was like, this is America. And I had my retort. I was like excuse me. I'm a pre med major from Wesleyan University and I'm here to answer your phone.
Oh.
He was like, what the hell. But here's the thing, Rachel. He had a manuscript under his arm. And because in college I also studied African American authors and I took a minor in African American English, and I was like, oh, what do you have? And it was his script for Bamboozled, a film that he was making it. And I asked him if I could read it, and like, because I was naive and stupid, I didn't know any better. And so he hands me the manuscript like sure, here, here
you go. My first day, Rachel, first day, the first time have met this man. And so he's like me, go ahead and read it and give me your thoughts. So I take a red pen two this manuscript. Girl. He literally, if you ask him the story, he'll tell you. I took a red pen to it. I made some corrections, I made some suggestions to character development. Grammar was all kind of off. I was like, why would people speak
this way? No, that's not the correcting. And that that was really the start of everything, because he had started an ad agency in partnership with D d B, which is a storied you know, ad agency, I know, yeah, four thirty seven Madison Avenue, you know. And it was like anxiety KKR.
There was like medium ye yes, yes, yes, there was like.
You yes, there's like a story, big ones. Then he said, you know you should stick around and I was like, I have a job. I have a job, have a job. So that was four years of working underneath Spike, like, you know, learning his ways of managing, of being unapologetic of his creativity and his discipline to it, and just I mean, how much better do you get that, you know,
being an understudy to somebody of that caliber. But it really sparked for me the idea that there was a world of advertising and marketing that could be infused with pop culture where my opinion could be important. You know, it's like all of these things. And that's that's what started it.
That is such a sick story.
First of all, I think your next book should be called Today's the Day, Today's the Day, because I'm going to take that with me if you don't mind if.
I repress that.
I think in living, whether you're in corporate or whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're trying to act or whatever, saying whatever it is. I think you always have that feeling of the you know, I talk with pretty much anyone on the pod that it's this, it's this this, Yes, it's.
Not bally like this.
Right, I've never like that.
No, right, no, And so I think with that it's nice to have those moments in your personal and professional life where you wake up and go, today's the day. And I myself, I would say I'm guilty of really never doing that. I actually like go the other way, which is like, oh, it's never happening, right. So that was like, I really, I'm soaking that one up.
If that's okay?
Yes, yes, the day, the day, so.
So okay, So this is so right? So then how do you go from this? From this?
Yeah?
Why why would one leave? And where do you go after that? Because you're young at this point, right, you're probably not even thirty, right, in your mid twenties.
No, no, no, By the time I left Spikes twenty right, Yeah, you know, so I'd worked for him, But the thing is that he had given me such a gift, you know, of appreciating my opinion, you know, not letting me feel like I was too young to have a good idea. In fact, it was my idea that led him to It was just again a confluence of moments. You know.
It's like he was pitching PepsiCo for their business, for their marketing business, or a slice of it anyway, and they were looking for, you know, the next new like, you know, spokesperson, but can he wanted it to be a black performer. And at the time, I was out in the streets in New York City and Beyonce had just left Destiny's Child Casual and people were hating on her. You know, at the time, I think people don't remember that.
They were not happy.
They were not Like when John Lennon left the Beatles, it was like a huge issue.
I mean they were literally, well, you're not going to succeed, you know. Yeah, they were literally like, oh, you know, now, you know, no solo artists has ever succeeded from a girl group except for Diana Ross, and you're not gonna be her, you know. And then she was also like trying to act, and she was trying to do all these things, and she was in a TV movie on MTV called Carmen The hip hopera Okay, destroyed by critics. I loved it. I thought it was brilliant, you know.
What I mean.
Like I was like, are you kidding me? Like we've got opera, and we've got like like classic opera, and you got Beyonce singing it. Oh, and they're people rapping as well, like this this is incredible, you know. And Spike was asking people around the office, you know, like who they thought would be great as the spokes for us and this and that and folks you know, were on the billboard charts. They were, you know, calling out names all these big artists. And I was like, I
think Beyonce is it. And everybody was like I don't think you know, she's not gonna blah blah blah blah. But Spike listened to me. Spike, he knows, and he was like, Okay, we'll take a meeting with her. She came in. I was always here, like, girl, you go get them. You just you the baddest, you know, you know, by the way, still friends with them, Still friends with Miss Tina, and Miss Tina remembers that I was like, hmm, yep, she's the one.
Beyonce, the fucking queen and anyone who says otherwise, I will fight too.
There were plenty of people who says she wasn't, but Spike believed. And so by the time I was ready to leave his agency, he had given me the confidence that like, look, you're never too young to have the best idea in the room, you know, like, you know, because everybody else might have the criteria, might have the education, might have the credentials, but if you have a great idea,
you're gonna win. Yeah, this is right. So when I was ready to leave, at the same time, PepsiCo was looking, you know, to hire some more people, and they were going to do it in an untraditional way because usually the marketers come from you know, the big you know, like MBAs. And I was still over here with my mcat that was about to expire, you know what I mean, and like, oh, yeah, I'm not gonna go med school and I'm definitely not getting an NBA. You can forget that.
So they offered me a job, which again it's like Destiny came in to meet me again, and I was like, oh my god, I think I have to take this opportunity. Even though there's nobody else liked me because everybody else came together in a class with their other NBA students were interns, and then they got offers to be you know, assistant brand managers.
Like there was a through the correct and here I was climbing through the window talking about I'm a huge believer of climbing through the window.
In fact, everything I've done in my life is probably climbing through the window. I've never I don't have the patience for this, you know, I don't.
I don't have it, Rachel, I don't. So now it's like we're not just climbing in heels. We're climbing in heels through the window, you know what I mean? Like that we through the window.
That's how we came in a hundred and then but then you like went on to like Uber Endeavor Apple like nets, right, so you have like so is it like you kind of go somewhere and you're like, Okay, I'm here for a reason and a purpose.
I'm gonna do my thing.
And then when I'm like okay, we're good here, then it's like we move on, yes right, yes.
Yes, yes, And I'm so glad for the experience because the thing is that look looking back at my career. People will be like, oh, this is great strategy, a great plan, blah blah blah. You named all the companies, c suite. I'm in the Hall of fame. I'm at the Hall of achievement. I'm a bill board, like I've
got all the credentials. So, like, you know, for me, it's like I have had a career which has just been boom boom boom boom, boom, boom boom, right, but people will look at it and be like, oh my god, this is a brilliant strategy. I can't believe she moved here. She moved here, she moved here. But Rachel, I promise you, I promise you. It has been at my own pace against a lot of advice everyone who has been like,
oh no, don't do that, don't go there. That company is shit, that manager's terrible, that CEO is crazy, like all of the things along my entire career even now. Okay, so I'm like, thank God that the experiences I've had have made me have to listen to myself and only myself, Like I keep my own counsel. I don't ask anybody for their advice on what career move. I should mean thank God, because imagine if I listen to somebody else, I'd be still sitting back overin middle management. Yeah, trying
to figure out who that I should wear today? False? Is it a being here with you and my friend in sequence and my hearings.
I want to talk to if I can love you so much. I want to talk to you just quickly about social media because it's something I get asked a lot, sort of the impact on the fashion industry and everything else marketing at this point, you know, as someone who has sort of like you know, I've had those are report. I've done all social media as I've done television, have done all the things I wouldn't at this point. You know, social media for me started as ten percent of my life.
Now it is I can't even say what percentage it is because it's.
It's such a big part.
Of everything I do in terms of amplification. So being that you are the queen, how like, what are your thoughts on that? Because when you started it wasn't about that, right, and so do you feel that it's only good? Do you feel that it's like, I just want to understand your thoughts on that, because I have I have love hates with it for sure, you know.
But yeah, and fair, fair, But here's the thing I think for me, social media is just another platform, yeah, to tell us story, you know. So for me, it's like I don't look at social media and think like, oh my god, it's like you know, the next worst thing, or it's like the greatest thing ever. It's just another platform.
So it's like the point is that mastery of the narrative, mastery of your story, mastery of the message, and then figuring out what platform is going to work best on, because let's not forget it that, like, you know, platforms from like the Roman Empire are still available today.
You know.
It's like when they went in like tagged, you know, like a sign in the town square. They're called billboards and it's in Times Square right now. Okay, so I'm like, look those things still exist.
Which I still by the way, very much same same. Yeah, a bus, a bus side, a bus.
Side, Okay, some like graffiti, I believe, with all of the stuff. So it's like social media is like the challenge that we have right for creators like you, like me, like whomever. It doesn't matter if you have seven million followers or three hundred. It's that what story are you telling and make sure it's appropriate for the platform that
you're telling it in. Because there's something that's going to be really great for the Billboarding Times Square that's not going to work on Twitter, or there's something that's going to be really great on TikTok that is not going to work on TV, you know. So it's like that is actually where the mastery of marketing then plays, because it's like, Okay, let me figure out what part of the story works on what platform and then hit them
all at the same time like lasers, you know. And that's how you get a complete and total picture where you can shift the brand narrative where you can make somebody go to them one on Billboard charts when they have no talent. Sure, I'm not speaking about.
Anybody, listen, Listen. I was in New York City working in the pop world when you were there. So I'm just gonna say marketing plays a big, big role, big, big big. I want to talk to you about The Urgent Life. I want to talk to you about the Urgent Life because I want to you know, I know a little bit about why you wrote this book, but I want I want to hear it from you because I think it's important to share with our listeners, because
I really love the title. Like I said, I'm a title nerd, but I want you to speak to it a little bit because I think it's super important.
Thank you, Thank you well. I've been asked to write a book for some time because I think after like I got my third C suite job, people were like, wait, hold on, does she have like that? Can't just be lust but have something so, you know, I was pitched all of the books like I should write the you know, the Corner Suite for Dummies, you know, girl boss in the C suite, like, you know, all these time to think that. I was like, you know what I could do that maybe one day I will write the book.
But it felt like, look, you don't become fierce or badass or like have the kind of grit that it requires to get to these offices without having gone through some shit.
Yeah, you know, without taking the buttered roll.
Oh, without taking the buttered roll, you know. And I felt like a lot of times, leaders, especially in the corporate world, hide their personal stories behind these walls because they have to appear perfect. You know, you have to appear like, oh, nothing is ever wrong. I never in doubt. There's never a moment where I cry or forget what I'm gonna say or have a bad day. Like I'm always the perfect leader. My teams are going to follow me to the end, you know. And I'm just like,
but that actually is not how human beings behave. And oh, by the way, everybody's lying. Sure. So I thought better to write my memoir because I was like, you want to get to the corner office. Well, first of all, you have to face the demons that are in your life.
You also have to think about the ways in which you are actually not the same person that you were, and utilize all of those things to be a more empathetic leader, a leader that people trust, you know, one that people are like, Oh, she's been through something and I'm going through something. I will follow her. I will listen to her. She understands, you know. And so my book The Urgent Life was really based on my traumas, you know, the loss in my life, the ways in
which sometimes life has just shit on me. Ye, you know, my need to live a really big life because my husband passed away from cancer ten years ago, almost eleven. Now just at the height of like, you know, I was really starting to break through the ceiling, you know, crash.
And you had a young daughter at the time.
Yeah, my daughter was four, and it was just like one of those things where you're just like, oh my God, like how okay? You know, I had put Beyonce on the Super Bowl halftime stage that year, and my career was just Pa Pa pal sing it, you know. And it's like, my daughter's four and we're you know, living in Manhattan.
We're living our life. How does this happen?
You've got we got decades to go. And then he's diagnosed with Burkett's lymphoma in May of twenty thirteen, which is a blood cancer, and six months later he was dead. And I it was just I don't even know how to describe like it was just it was earth shattering. It was devastating. It was all of the things, like all the fear and hurt, and like I was mad at God. My call was kissed, you know, and like, what did you do this? Anyway?
He just fell into a crack in the earth. Yeah, Like actually, you know, like actually I always say like when those things happen, it's like if you had a visual it's like you're standing there and you're happy, and then all of a sudden, the entire earth cracks beneath you and you fall and you're like, write it.
That's it, that's it.
And it's like this black hole and you're like, how the how do I get out of here? You know? And it's why I do live an urgent life now, because I'm like, it's not really about like speed and time. I'm not trying to like raise the clock. That's really not what I want to do is live like the fullest life that I can. And that's what the urgency is about, because like, you don't know when we're going to go, And I don't think that that's ay or
a sad thing to say. I just think because it's very inspirational because I'm like, Earl, look, when it's my time to go, you will know that I've been here. You will know, you will feel it, and you'll be like, damn, that's a good one lost, you know what I mean? Because I'm living I'm living the biggest life that I can and I refuse for anyone to tell me, oh, you know what do it on the next one? Oh, wait and do it later. Oh no, I don't think that's right for you. Who are you talking to woo me? No,
you can't be talking to me like this is my life. Yeah, this is my life. And so that's why it's like when people try to deny me.
Anything, You're like, I'm sorry, no.
No, okay, I'm living my own urgent life. You should live yours, and you're probably happier if you do that.
Yeah, And I love it because the urgent life, like it is such a profound statement, and it is something that I don't think. I know, I don't live like that enough. I know it here that we need to do it. And I would say my parents are eighty three and eighty seven. They live every day like it is, and they have always. They have always They're like, we could get hit by a bus tomorrow. We need to do this. And I'm like, hey, you're gonna spend every
dollar you have, Like, oh my god. It's like there's some gray area here, right, there's some middle ground here. But I love it, and I think and I think you're coming from this place of actual experience and why, And I think it's a really good thing for us to learn because you've been through it. You have been through it, and I think we've all been through it
in different ways. But I think showing vulnerability as a major player in any field, as a known boss badass, there is this expectation that I'm not sure people put on us, that we put on ourselves. Is I'm good, We're good, I'm good, I'm fine, We're good. What do you mean I'm not I'm I'm good.
Of course I'm.
Good, And you're basically like, it's cool to not be good, and it's cool to like, you know, yes, yeah.
Yes, it's actually better.
Yeah, because human The thing is.
That I am a better leader because I'm a widow. I'm a better leader because I'm a single mom. I'm a better leader because I have experienced, you know, someone really close to me who died by suicide. I'm a better leader because I have lost a child. Like I'm a better leader because of so many things in my life that have rocked me. And I've been able to figure out, Okay, like, what's the ways in which I
come back to life? You know, so many times, time after time after time, And so I have empathy for the world, and I have empathy for people and I will meet somebody and say, oh my god, like you know, whatever you're going through, like okay, you take your time, you do what you need to do, or maybe I can help in some way, or the fact that, yes, I have been the other in a room, I have been the child of the immigrant where people are not
giving them the credit they deserve. You know. It's like, I've been all of those things, and so I think I'm just a better human for having gone through all of these things.
And that's what you take from it, because you have to write. It's really hard to find that silver lining sometimes because you're like, fuck off, why did this hop been?
Like what?
Yes? Yes? And sometimes there are those days too, yeah, of course you know what.
I'm just like, no, literally every better and you're just like why today?
You know?
But I do think that if we were all more honesty about the depths of our pain, the fear in our transitions, you know, joy and the triumph once you finally get to the thing, without you know, being like, oh you have to somehow fake humble, like what girl, when I reached the mountaintop, I'll be the first one who's up there, like.
I'm right.
Because I'm get in the valley. Are you kidding me? You know how hard it was to get up there? You know how climbing in heels? You know how hard it was?
Wait to your six feet barefoot? Right? You're six feet for right? And do you still wear heels?
I still wear four?
That is so mean.
See my real friends that are doll like you, they were maybe a kid meal around me just to be nice, and they duck, and they duck for me, they squat.
I will there's not one way on God's green earth if you will catch me in a kid meal, okay, in the weight.
So when I get to meet you, would hug you in person. You're not gonna like, just do this a little.
Bit, just to no grandma. I'm gonna hug you to my navel.
Okay right here, a fine fine, By the way, don't kid yourself. I'm gonna text you pictures of me and some of the models that I've worked with my career where I literally come up to their hip. Their leg is like to my actually like their their leg actually ends at my head.
Yeah, true story, true story.
I love it.
And so you are so next level and I don't even know I know that you're probably gonna say you have so much you want to do, so much left to do, but I do. I am curious about what is like now and what is like the next thing, if there is a next thing, because I know you're not taking a beat. I know there's no way you're taking a beat, not in this urgent life.
Hell no, no, not in this urgent life.
No.
But that's the thing is that I've been so I am really excited about every evolution that I have. You know, I'm always so like I anticipated with a lot of joy. And when I left Netflix, I was a global CMO. To write my book, I thought I was going to like take a little sabbatical, you know, I publish my
book and then go back. And it was really scary to be like, oh shit, like I don't think I'm like, I don't think I want to go back, you know, And my ego was playing tricks on me, you know, the like, oh, well but now I don't have this big company behind me. Who the hell am I? You know, like I walk into you and people like, oh that's you know, that's the CMO of I don't have that. So I was fighting that the identity shift.
Do I need that title. Do I need that title to exist?
Yes, in order to validate who I am. And I know that. You know, maybe a lot of people would say, but oh my god, but you're so unapologetic, you're so fearless, and I'm like, yeah, but I still got an ego. Yeah, I still I still feel the pain of like identity shift when something in your life goes away and therefore you're no longer this person that you told the whole world you were. I mean, yeah, there were days when I literally sat in my bed and I was like,
I don't want to go outside. I don't want to go to the party because people a going to ask me what are you doing now? And I'm like, oh my god, are you kidding me?
You know the worst question, by the way.
I hate that question.
I literally see.
It At every event I go to, there's someone asking someone, so, what are you working on?
What are you doing now?
And it's that and behind it is that worry you good?
Yes?
Yeah, exactly like that.
I'm good.
I've been working for thirty fucking years, exactly exactly.
Look, I'm fine, you know. I started to answer like all the you know, crazy things like I would say stuff like oh, I'm working on a on a space flight to March. And people would be like you are, and I'm like, yes, bitch, I am.
And that sound yeah, They're gonna go really.
Like, yeah, oh, I have an idea for you. No, you don't sit down after taking the time from my book, I you know, just sat back and really for the I think, for the first time in my life, for the first time in my career anyway, I was like, what do I actually want to do now, you know, not not necessarily like the linear climbing the ladder, but like,
what do I actually want to do? And I had so many thoughts and so many ideas, and then opportunities popped up for me, you know, whether it was like just you know, speaking engagements that I started doing and being able to communicate to other people how I do this and how I did it, and you know the motivation of it all, of course, and then I decided that, you know what, I think, I definitely want to work for myself. You know, I want to create my own company.
I want to create my own business. Like I've put in so many years working for other people and building their companies. It's about time, you know that I did something for myself, and so I started exploring that, and then I got the uh to talk to the producers of the Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, and I was like, bitch, what's out here? I come, you know, And it's it's just it's such a fascinating life because.
Like you don't know what's coming around. No, you never know.
But it's like why not take the opportunities, like why not jump into these you know, sometimes off the wall wacky ideas like you know, try it. You know who said I can't.
I could do anything I want and you could also hold your own in that room.
You know, you better believe it, you know what I mean. So I'm like, hey, look, this is a new opportunity, a new place for me, a new time in life. I feel like I'm on like a third act or ten or ten exactly. But I'm very excited. I mean, I don't know that I can explain anymore that It's like, I am so excited about this time in life. You know.
I think you take it that way.
I think this is sort of, as you said, like new chapter in the book. And I feel like I don't know. I mean, I think you come up in corporate there's an identity with that. It was at this you know, really major dinner over the summer with a ton of badass leaders and CEOs and a very dear
friend of mine. For a really long time, she's built countless companies and now she just kind of starts them and like, you know, and she moves on and then she goes, you know, for the first time, I don't have a CEO title in front of my name.
And I literally but it was it was by choice. But I said, and how is that?
She's like, yeah, some days it's creepy and awful and I don't know who I am. And some days there is a relief and an excitement because I've never been free from it, you know, And so I I and she's so successful, I mean, I mean in every way and happy. So I'm like, I think you need to get there, you know, to the I'm happy like this and you're not a title. And I think that's probably
what you were experiencing. And I think as women, those titles can mean way more than they should, because over time, we were never you know, years ago, we weren't given those titles ever hardly ever.
And now men want.
To give us those titles so that they can like check boxes sometimes. Right, So so I think, sorry, and I really like men. I don't mean to bash men, but but it's fact. And I think, and I think for you, you've had your titles, you've done it, you've taken the buttered roll, you've you've done all the things, and I think, like this next chapter is very exciting. So I'm I'm excited to see where it takes you. I don't worry about you for one second ever. Well,
I'm so happy for you. I'm really excited about all you're doing. And I can't wait to watch you keep going out. And I'm going to start living a more urgent life, effective, immediately.
Effective, immediately. Today's the day.
Today.
Today is the day, babe, day, that's the name of your next something. Today is the day. I'm here, I'm calling it, I'm writing it, and today is the day because people need to repurpose that.
Amen. I am okay, okay.
Thank you so much to Boz for coming on the podcast today. She is so beyond I literally could have talked to her or for hours. I cannot believe the life she's lived. I cannot believe the grief she's lived through and smiling bigger than I've probably seen anyone on my pod.
I am taking from that.
I am definitely taking from that, and I think to write a book called the Urgent Life and How to Live It, I think is something that we should all take along with her journey of you know, going from literally being hungry to taking a buttered roll from a nice, kind neighbor to getting the dream job from Spike Lee because she had the courage to actually, you know, ask to read a script. I mean, it's really an unbelievable story. I want to thank you so much for listening to
Climbing and Heels. If you haven't already, please subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, the iHeart app, or wherever you get your podcasts. You don't miss a single episode fifth season, and be sure to follow me on Instagram at at rachel Zo and the show on at Climbing in Heels pod for the latest episodes and updates.
I sing too, Mu