the following is a CNN a podcast. I'm Jamie Hill and this is the climate conversations I'm talking about data today. It's in everything that we do online is the lifeblood of this hyper connected world, from streaming a video, replying to an email or making an online purchase, rely on data centers the process and communicate data at lightning speeds. Yet their energy guzzlers, they account for about 7% of Singapore's total electricity consumption in 2020.
After the pandemic and hybrid working accelerated the shift online As 5G and artificial intelligence become the norm. Data storage facilities will only become a more significant source of carbon emissions. The International Energy Agency estimates they use about 1% of the world's it actually city currently, but that figure could hit double digits by 2030 with this decade hailed as a decisive one for climate action. Can data centers rise to the challenge of carbon neutrality?
How are countries balancing the lucrative opportunity of building more but also managing their large electricity footprint? What does an eco friendly sustainable data center look like and how much of it will be a reality here with us to talk through This is Darren Webb co founder and Ceo of Evolution Data centers which specializes in sustainable data infrastructure. Darren. Hi, thanks for being here.
Hi, Jamie Pleasure.
Let's start with the details. Okay there and give our listeners and me a quick overview of how a data center works. What makes it so energy intensive and it's not just electricity. Right as far as resources go. It's a big guzzler,
absolutely genuine. These data centers have scaled exponentially over the last five years from sites that were probably around a couple of megawatts up to now in Singapore, we see facebook over 100 and 40 megawatts. So the scale has been exponential and therefore the amount of power being used obviously gone up by the same amount. Now what I would say you have to look at efficiency as well. So you have one data center at 40 or 50
megawatts say, which is reasonably standard size. Now that would be much more efficient at five megawatts while they are huge users of power and water, they are more efficient than they used to be. And we also have to remember and be really clear as consumers that we are. In fact the consumers of those data centers, we may not be the direct customers such as the cloud operators, but with the customers of the cloud operators,
of the e commerce, of the banking. So we're ultimately people driving the consumption and the need for data centers. That's the fact that needs to be clear to everyone.
The thing about data centers is this, we are all consumers, but no one really sees it. But it's big business. Right? I mean even here in the ASIA pacific it said that the region's market is worth about $28 billion. It will be in 2020 for overtaking north America to be the largest in the world at least here in ASIA Then explain how the sector evolved, what made AsIA so competitive that people wanted to put their data centers here.
That's a great question. There's a number of factors to answer that. You can look at it from a population point of view, from a technological point of view. I try and cover up a couple of points when you're looking at a time sensitive applications. So voice is obviously one video is clearly won. The providers of those applications or the cloud services wants to be close to the customers because that reduces the latest it provides a better service, better customer experience by being closer.
So more and more of the cloud companies and a host and a video companies and the content companies want to be closer to their customers. So that drives the requirement to move from what was previously a kind of hub and spoke design. So you had a big data center hubs in Singapore and Hong kong as the example serving lots of parts of Asia. Now, a lot of those companies want to go to the less mature markets and provide that in country experience
but also combines that there's obviously regulation. So we have this data sovereignty challenge in the data center world where governments rightly say that certain data cannot leave the country particularly financial data to comply to those regulations
the cloud companies have to host in the country. So there's a mixture of wanting to deliver a better customer experience, wanting to be closer to their customers, wanting to obviously achieve more revenue because as you can provide more services in country that's more revenue. But also making sure you can comply with any regulation, particularly data looking
at Singapore. Then we are one of the most sought after places to set up data centers after places like Norway and Iceland. What makes us stand out specifically or basically one country versus another is it all just about market as you said,
Singapore is and will remain a major hub for data centers and that's not because we have a large consumer population concealing dope. It's because of a number of factors. If you look at from a geographical point of view, it's very well positioned, has a number of the subsidy cable systems coming in so it's very well connected. It's also very stable both from a government point of view and again from a geological point of view, we don't have the challenges of volcanoes and fault lines that
some of our neighboring countries do. So it's considered a stable safe places to start business and it's extremely well connected. So that's why Singapore is and will remain a very strong hub for Asia Hong kong is very similar in many ways obviously question mark, the stability from a political point of view and you can see a trend to move some capacity from Hong kong to Singapore. But both will remain
if Singapore has put a moratorium on new data centers, where do we go from here, then I suppose it means no more new ones for sure. But if there are energy savings, if their technologies to be had out there, do you think there's still room for growth in terms of the actual physical data centers?
There's a little bit of a paradox of an answer because on one hand, we also have a land challenge in Singapore and a power challenge. Right? These facilities can take up a fair bit of space and you have to consider in a land constrained environment whether that's the best use of space and of course that's something that the government agencies will consider. But also the power Singapore as a
challenge to. It doesn't have access to renewable energy at scale that there's been some developments to look at floating data centers and that's great. But they can't support 40 50 megawatt data centers. The maps just don't make sense. They just can't generate enough power as an intimate and power supply. So Singapore does have a challenge because on one hand, it wants to retain its hub spaces. On the other hand, as you said, there's a moratorium that's
been in place for two years. Pretty much there's some talk about what will happen next year. Will one or more sites become available? That's likely that we'll probably see one or two more. But certainly we won't see the type type of deployment that we've seen in the previous years before the moratorium. So it'll be interesting to see if Singapore can maintain, maintain that status. The reality is jaime, the need for data to drive the data, the data
generation is not flowing and will not flow. You know, if I give you a bit of basic analysis that proves the point. If you look at someone like the Philippines, 110 million people, 30 million of which aren't on smartphones yet, you can just imagine as anyone hits the smartphones the first time, what do they do? They download? Netflix. HD e banking, e commerce, the data is not going to stop.
So data centers are needed to fulfill that requirement. Singapore be interesting to see how they maintain the need to maintain the hub status. But with the moratorium will operators find new homes for data and we're already seeing that a little bit in J. B and in batam in Indonesia. And we're already seeing trends to deploy out in Thailand Philippines is going to be the next big market I suspect. So it's definitely going to be under a challenge. I think that spaces over the next couple of years,
the sort of story of the data center really reminds me of just about any other energy intensive industry here in Singapore, whether it's pet camps, whether it's electricity generation in that sounds as if there's only so much more that Singapore can do as you say, given all the constraints. But it is an industry that is, there is growing and we need to sort of grow on that.
But do you think at least as far as Singapore sponsored and overall technology is concerned there's room to grow and this we are going to my next question for you in sort of developing the technologies for green or green data centers, how they're constructed, how they are powered, how they operate. I'm sure that's something that must be something on the radar for everybody as far as sustainability goals. Is there something that Singapore can lead on? You think?
I really hope so. In fact, the business that I co founded evolution is somewhat predicated on that principle, which is that Singapore will, even if it can't deploy more data centers will take a lead in deploying technology and operating processes which drive greener data centers in our neighboring country. So for the overall benefits of as you can and if you look at what came out of cop 26 clearly that the market's kind of combined into one degree to say, okay, what can we
do as a combined region. And my answer is from Singapore, be the fourth leader, be the one that says there is technology that's happening in the rest of the world that we can deploy in Singapore in the surrounding countries and there's new technology has come along that we all play a part of allowing our neighbors access to share that learning, there's a huge opportunity to Singapore to take that fort leadership position on behalf of Asia. And so
that gets around a little bit. What do we do as a hub where we're not just the hub for the existing data centers, but we're taking a leadership position on on how to build greener data centers across the region. But I'm always clear just as a byline, we don't say green data centers, you know, the reality is there's no such thing as a green data center and once the industry acknowledges that I think it becomes a lot easier to tackle the challenges that we have as an industry ahead of us.
Yeah, I'm glad you said green er rather than green, I caught myself there as well. But in terms of the actual technologies, where do you think the most sort of low hanging food might be, is it in cooling, can cooling be done more efficiently? Is it in emissions? Is it in the use of water as well? And water as well? I mean, the production of water at least two emissions too? I would imagine. So where do you think the most promising technologies, like
the answers we need to look at every aspect of design, build and operate and you've touched on some so calling hydrogen to remove the diesel Genset, how we use our excess heat in a circular economy type of way that the challenge there being in a hot region rather than coal region. So it's easier to find ways to offset your heat in colder countries. But for me and for evolution actually, we think renewable energy is clearly the biggest ticket items. We're looking at green cement to be used in our
first deployment of the example. And that's great. And we would absolutely do it. But it doesn't move the needle massively. Something like using renewable energy clearly does. Because if we can use a source that is no longer using coal, then that really is making a material difference. So whilst we look at every aspect and you mentioned some of them very well for us, we've got to move as an industry to using renewable energy.
And to be absolutely clear, I'm not talking about using carbon credits where an operator here in ASia has purchased carbon credits in the U. S. Probably at a very low rate and is offsetting them against usage against their admittance. In ASia. For me that's greenwashing, there's another word for it. It doesn't drive any value to the region in which you're admitting that's not a sustainable and it was okay as a sticking plaster, the stick and faster needs to
be ripped off as an industry. We need to move too much more aggressive forms of using renewable energy and we need to get much quicker and we need to do it as a combined industry rather than just one or two people. I'm
going to jump on your last comment and ask you as well your take on whether the industry as a whole, the data center operators do recognize that they have a huge role to play because we know in, in countries like Singapore data centers do take up a huge percentage of electricity. I'm sure it's the same elsewhere. Do they recognize this as a whole? Is there sort of a general awareness? Are the outliers where, you know, they really haven't admitted to it
as an industry? We are not acknowledging and we have a problem. We have a challenge to move to greener data fences. There's lots of people with their heads in the fan. There's lots of operators that believe that statements on websites are really delivering value in real life and they're not, you know, people suggesting that they're 100% renewable. They use 100% renewable power in Singapore in the data center Jamie. They're not and they can't be because we don't have that
much renewable power. That tells me there's a huge greenwashing issue in the industry. I would say it's more prevalent
in Asia. Unfortunately, we're definitely lagging behind in terms of the use of technology to start amending that, that we've seen in parts of europe and Asia, but until we recognize there's an issue until we take our head out of the sand until we start understanding that we've got to walk the walk as well as talk talk, we're not going to progress as an industry and what that leads to is both frustration from our customers who have made very public commitments about their own
Carbon neutral commitments, whether it's 2030 or whatever it may be or we actually leave ourselves open to regulation coming above us. If we can't self polices and industry, then someone's gonna come and police us with governance and laws and actually that's the wrong answer. We should be mature enough to say what can be done, what will we do and let's get on and do it rather than start putting it on our website and attending at the end of the
issue. That's, that's an excellent point And it can be said about many other industries as well. We'll take a quick break and be right back. Climate conversations podcast is supported by savannah, jerome building cities shaping lives. I wanted to get your take as well as the role of consumers as far as we can.
The problem with consumers as we sort of alluded to at the beginning of our conversation is that consumers sometimes don't know that their consumer of the services that the data center provides, its not as direct between the provider and a consumer, correct. But there are all sorts of different consumers. You have netflix with the consumer, but you have the regular guy on the street was also a consumer.
Do you think consumers big and small have a role to play in knowing the kind of demands that they are making an expecting of data centers and what this sort of exponential growth in demand will lead to at some point in time. Do they have a role in efficiencies managing demand, things like that. Both at the individual corporate levels.
The answer is absolutely yes, but there's an education piece there, as you said, I don't think people necessarily recognize the amount of data they're using, the amount of video calls are doing. The amount of streaming they're doing creates the need for data and that therefore goes through a data center which is using power and utilities including water. So there's a little bit of education required. That's not to suggest people aren't interested in the education. I just
don't think it's happened previously. So as consumers and over consumption of data, it's the same as our need to change our own ways of living when it comes to anything else. Like reciting as example our own carbon footprint. It's not just data. It they can do. And the reality is we've grown up in a consumption based environment where we can keep doing more and more and more and what we're seeing is the utilities the earth can't keep up with our demands.
So where's the answer? The answer doesn't sit with data centers. The answer with our consumers whether it's an individual consumers or in the workplace. So turning lights off shutting down computers not only having one screen. I'm not saying individually that will make a huge difference, but collectively that will reduce the power requirements. So we can't sit here as consumers as we are right now on an audio call complaining about data
when
when we're using it. So for me there's a little bit of a contradiction but that comes from education or the lack of knowledge of how they are a key component in individual infrastructure. But yeah, we need to look at ourselves and say, do we need three devices going at the same time? Do we need five smart tv? How many iphones do we actually need? And it's not criticism of the product? It's a criticism of us as users of the product.
Yeah. Now you make me feel guilty for having someone listening to this podcast, uh having his dream, right, But here's the question we are living. You know, when we talk about five G when we talk about downloading speeds, it's always sort of a one sided narrative where, you know, if you download a movie and 30 seconds, that's quite incontrovertibly a good thing. But yeah,
as you say, it's not necessarily the full picture. There is a large picture to the data that people use and electricity as well that comes with it again, Where does it start? I feel sometimes too much lands on the individual and the individual consumer, do you think there will ever be a time where the larger players do step up and sort of make it clearer to people, the implications and consequences of their choices and what they do.
Yes and no, I think we're seeing certainly the big cloud companies Microsoft AWS and Google of the world making very big commitment. So we look at Microsoft as a brief example. Their commitment is to not have any more Diesel Genset On their site by 2030. That's a big commitment. And it's one that they said as they sold, they will allow other operators to see. So that's exactly the kind of attitude that we need and thought leadership that we need.
The others are fulfilling customer demand. So should netflix stop streaming. HD Well, why would be there question when, when their customers are demanding that kind of service. So while there's a demand, there will be a supply. I don't think it should all be on the consumers. I think there should be a two way relationship with operators and content providers. Just thinking about the same way Jamie on the side of food packaging. Now, you see the amount of calories, right?
That's based on obesity levels and declining health that consumers are now wanting to see the impact of what they're eating much more clearly and maybe going forward we'll see something similar in terms of content. So MR customer if you download this, that'd be using so much carbon to do. So, you know, so you can maybe see a stage where that happens. So it's a two way street. I'm going to tell you what the
impact is. You as the customers inside, whether that's the right thing to do, it will start still a lot as a demand. There still will be supplied
the last question and again, to refocus ourselves Then on Asia, as we've said, Asia is going to be increasingly sort of the real center of action as far as data centers is concerned, paying for us in your mind, an ideal situation 10 years, 20 years down the road when there's more and more data's come up in countries, as you say, like Malaysia Indonesia, what would a sustainable ecosystem actually looked like between data centers and their energy usage between the relationship between data
centers and their consumers and between them and governments as well. In terms of the regulations, in terms of the new policies as well that makes it sustainable. What might it look like that we can at least from Singapore's perspective and they're pushing the region along. What might that situation look like? The
answer is we shouldn't need government regulation. We should be mature enough as an industry to police ourselves. So the day that the government had to step in to tell us what to do is is the day that we've really gone wrong. So that's the answer. The Nirvana and it's not always possible for good reason. And the Nirvana is that every data center is powered by locally generated renewable power. Now that is certainly possible in some markets where they have placed low power, we'll have no
land scarcity. But it's not possible where Singapore being a prime example, but where it is, we should be ensuring that each data center is 100% provided by locally generated renewable power, not carbon credit. That then means that the need for coral reduces not completely goes away because the grid may still play a part in transmission, but it will certainly reduce the demand for coal investment and that's a good thing.
And then you look at it as a site. So we should be avoiding Greenfield in a sense of virgin land. That should really be a last resort. If that's going to happen, we should be really looking at an industrial existing industrial parts when it's fair lots or building that can be resisted. That's much more sustainable than obviously starting a new build. But we should also be looking to bring in technologies
and you spoke about some of them earlier. So you can only be as greener as the technology allows you for that day. But if we recognize it's a constant learning curve and we, as operators should build and deploy as best we can within the commercial realities that we have on that day understanding that in a year's time, new technology will come along, that would improve the situation. So on our next site, let's use the new technologies, we need to keep up
the technology deployment as it comes to market. What we can't do is continue to do the way we've always done.
That's not a sustainable model. It's not a sustainable construction method and we need to both as operators and customers Really employees that you know, the latest technology and whether it's calling or hydrogen or using renewable power, whatever it may be, we need to make a commitment to ourselves and to our customers to do that where it's possible and where it's commercially viable and if we do that, I think we'll be in a much better position in the next 5 to 10 years.
Darren webb. I'm glad we're sort of for these purposes. Speaking on a podcast and not on HD video. Thank you very much.
Thank you jane. Thanks for your
time. Thanks Darren and thanks for listening to the climate conversations. Stay up to date on CNN's coverage of climate change on sienna dot asia. It's all on the orange tab. You can also find this and other Sienna podcast on our website and on itunes and Spotify, the team behind this podcast at Christina robert, lindsey Stirling and Aaron Low. I'm Jamie Hall till next week. Mm hmm