This is a C. N. A podcast. The bargain between the global north and the South has to actually work. It's broken right now. It's not addressing the accelerated needs of people on the front line of climate stress. That's Sherry Rehman, Pakistan's climate change minister. Speaking with Sienna on the sidelines of the UN's Climate summit in Egypt, she's been on the offensive at these global climate talks demanding more financial help in the wake of devastating floods in her country.
My name is Jack Board Ciena's climate change correspondent. And this is a special edition of the climate conversations brought to you from cop 27 in Sharm el Sheikh, 12 months on from Glasgow. And wow, what a year of devastating climate extremes the world's witnessed record breaking droughts in china, the US and europe in southeast asia Malaysia got slammed by floods and the Philippines by more deadly typhoons. And then of course Pakistan where a third of the
country was underwater for wealthy countries. These events are major economic impediments, the developing world or the global south though, they're totally debilitating and now they want someone else to pay that someone being the countries that have historically caused climate change. I'm one of some 35,000 people who have come to the Egyptian desert to watch on as the world's leaders, businesses and bankers try to work out how exactly that might look From the get go loss and damage has been the
hot topic at Cop 27. It was on the official agenda for the first time at any conference of the parties. But what is loss and damage and how might it affect the communities and people living on the climate front line? I started by chatting with CAssie Flynn, she's with the United Nations Development Program as a strategic advisor on climate change. She spent years working on climate policy and strategy with rich experience, working with the countries who are seeking this
urgent financial assistance. I asked her why this was an important conversation to be having.
Well, I think we've really entered a new chapter of the climate crisis and I even remember being in these negotiations not that long ago when loss and damage was theoretical concept. It was what happens when an island country can no longer sustain their territory if an island country
goes underwater? What do you do? And it was something that was more academic in the thinking and now with all of these climate related disasters that we're seeing, whether it's the floods in Pakistan, whether it is coastal zones in island countries starting to face real challenges whether it is drought across food systems, we're seeing the climate impacts really hit places with an intensity that we're just not used to? And we have to ask ourselves this really hard question, which is what happen
when something occurs that is irreversible. What happens when you're not going to get that coastline back? What happens when you're not going to get those food systems back and what do we do about it? And so I think now as countries are grappling with this new reality, it certainly has come forward in the overall discussions on climate change,
Why is loss and damage such a contested issue?
Well, when we talk about loss and damage, I think one of the big questions when you experience a loss is who's responsible for this? Who is responsible when we do face these awful catastrophes, these heartbreaking stories that we hear and whether it's in loss and damage world, we'll call it economic losses. So loss of goods and services, loss of productivity or non economic losses. What do you do when you start to lose a cultural identity? What do you do when you lose a huge set of very
endangered species because of climate change? And being able to unpack this has become very, very difficult. And many countries who are on the front lines of loss and damage are the ones who are least responsible for the problem. Small island states, these developed countries, the ones are being hit so hard are ones that have not been the
historic big emitters. And so it's only fair that many of these developing countries are sort of looking at the ones that have been these big emitters and say, hey, our reality is because of all of the pollution you put in the atmosphere. And so you've got to help us with this, You've got to help us deal with this crisis on our doorstep? Because in many ways this wouldn't have happened if you weren't releasing those emissions
right now it seems that we are putting the options into different baskets, we have mitigation options, the adaptation option, then loss and damage, loss and damage. Obviously the most expensive of these three hats does that also make it then the most difficult?
I think it's also blended together and the reality is that one country, one community, Yes, some really need their number one goal needs to be getting their emissions down. Others there on the front line of the crisis, they need to be focusing on adaptation. Others are experiencing huge, huge losses and crises and focusing on loss and damage, but
you really can't have one without the other. And we have to be thinking about these all together and I think there does need to be special consideration for what loss and damage costs. It's one thing to start putting up early warning systems or seawalls or infrastructure to be able to protect communities. But What do you do when you just can't go back to that place when that is just not a safe
place to live anymore. I was having a conversation with a delegate from a Caribbean country once who was talking about how I feel like they're in this horrible cycle where a category five storm comes and wipes out their airport and then they have to go into an immense amount of debt to be able to reconstruct that airport And then a couple years later, another category five storm comes and wipes out the airport again and they are back to Square one.
You also kind of touched on the intangible loss of culture of place. How do we go about compensating or assisting financially communities who suffer losses like
that was something that I have been thinking a lot about in when we talk about loss and damage. We are also talking about an immense amount of heartbreak to get up and to have to move your community to lose the place. You know, maybe there was a tree that you loved that. You would always sit below and you don't have that anymore. You know, I grew up near the ocean and to see the coastline change in a way that it seems so rapid and so overwhelming.
I think that there's so much a part of this that is about our sort of hearts collectively breaking over this. And certainly the loss of art, the loss of music, the loss of cultural traditions have to be a key part of this conversation because it's not as easy as people just picking up and moving somewhere else. You are tied to your place.
You are tied to your community in that place. And we have to be thinking about this and being able to make accommodations for those types of really devastating and heartbreaking losses.
Loss comes in different forms. Just ask the Maldives. The island nation isn't often on the news after hugely devastating events. Their climate story is unfolding slowly, but no less severely. Environment Minister Amarnath Shawna is an energetic voice for her country. I caught up with her in the middle of her typically hectic cop schedule among the noise and crowds of the summit.
Why is this an important moment in the climate change discussion We have cop every year, specifically this year, Maldives has been advocating on climate change for the past couple of decades and one of the issues that we have been highlighting for decades is the issue of loss endowment. That has not gained any traction for all these years. But small island states with a lot of work has managed to mobilize interest from political and non political actors on this issue.
And this cop, one of the most focused issues for discussion is funding for loss and damage. So when we're talking about loss and damage people like to frame it as where is the money, who is going to pay? Is that the way you see it? No, it's not just about the money, loss and damage is a complex issue. The impacts of climate change is on two and one is the rapid impacts of climate change where most of our island nations in the caribbean
for instance, experience every year with hurricanes. But the second part is countries like ours with slow onset impacts of climate change, where gradual degradation of reef ecosystem and ocean resources has an impact on our fisheries, on our tourism, on all the resources that we depend on for economic development as well. So it's a complex issue and I don't think that it's just about the money with both slow onset impacts as
well as the rapid impacts of climate change. Both of these things do one thing, it destabilizes countries, it destabilizes
economies and it contributes to ongoing conflicts as well. So it's a complex issue which is not just about funding and the least we can do is help us continue to live a healthy life in the Maldives where our country's economic and political systems will be stable when we are hit every year by floods and hurricanes and our islands are rapidly eroding that shrinks our physical space and that takes away money that we would otherwise be spending on education and health care and other socio
economic problems that we have. We're not just a country that is affected by climate change, we have Of other development priorities as well. Maldives has managed to become a middle-income country in Spain of 30 to 40 years and that lifted us from poverty. We may not be able to maintain this level of standard of living. If every year we have to spend and divert funds from education and health care and social protection systems to disaster with reductions. And
do you feel a shift in momentum. Do you feel there is progress actually being made an acknowledgement taking responsibility? Absolutely. The fact that we did not have a massive agenda fight in the beginning of this cop I think is a display of goodwill from all parties, including the developed countries, recognizing that this is a genuine issue. No longer something that they can put it in the back, you must be exhausted having to constantly bring up these issues again and again.
How do you stay energized? How else do you do it? We are in a globalized society and we have to work with international systems and we have to work to establish these international systems that are equitable, accessible and predictable for all parties that are affected by climate change. So we have to work with international systems no matter how frustrating it is, it may, we may not be there in time to save lives.
Hi, I'm Stephen and I host the new season of our podcast heart of the matter, join me in getting right to the heart of the headlines as we speak with experts and newsmakers to delve deep into the most talked about news developments, look out for our episodes wherever you get your podcasts despite the widespread climate impacts you see and feel across Southeast Asia, not all Asean countries are vocal about loss and damage, but leading the charge is the Philippines, Typhoons
have always been a way of life there, but they're starting to be more regular and more powerful leaving communities in what feels like a helpless cycle. I spoke to a couple of Philippine climate justice advocates in Sharm el Sheikh, one who has attended 23 cops already, the other just a handful so far.
Hi, I'm marina love although I am an international climate justice advocate from the Philippines and I am here at club to be part of the conversation, climate justice on loss and damage and I am here to represent my community, the survivors of super different I act and to make sure that the stories are out there and the stories are being amplified back for it's like growing up, I have been really used to typhoons and I thought that influence is already a part of life.
I even thought that there was everywhere just because it is so normal in our place that I grew up being used to fleeing and evacuating. I grew up knocking on doors of our neighbors to let us in and the rest of the mental the stone passes. I grew up always thinking and doubting if we will have even a house after A typhoon in the Philippines, we experienced an average of 30 day funds per year and imagine revolting and rebelled
at times. I just feel like these tables of climatic disaster, they are making the people poor because a lot of people in developing countries like the Philippines, they don't have even the thought on saving how much more having the money to rebuild and revealed all over again. So I think it is counterproductive because of climatic disasters, a lot of people are migrating to other places. I know my beer so migrated to other places because they don't
have livelihood anymore. In our island there is no fish anymore in our island, you cannot form anymore in our island because the weather is so not predictable anymore. So they just go to other places because they're mine. I imagine my friends who have lost their loved ones, so I've lost their parents, I've lost all of their
family members. Those are, you can include the price on the grief and the laws that we have suffered and money is just I think a band aid solution the owner takes we need to have a systemic change. So people will not be losing a lot of love to point. I'm Tony Lavinia, associate Director for Climate Policy and International Relations of the Manila Observatory.
I'm here because we work on global climate change issues and particularly trying to influence the negotiations for a more ambitious climate justice outcome That includes mitigation, invitation loss and damage, which are the three pillars I think of action, so loss and damage on the agenda officially for the first time in 27
why is that important? And what kind of outcomes not just at the conference, but overcoming years, just having the conversation now, actually talking to what we want is that when a place like say island in the Philippines city in the Philippines community in the Philippines or elsewhere in the world is hit by an extreme event like a storm or drought or even low, slow onset events, but clearly loss of lives and damage
to property infrastructure. The economy happens. We want funding to immediately be available to restore people and places to where we were before the event happened because without a loss and damage intervention, you can't expect them to mitigate climate change, you can't expect them to adapt to climate change. What's going to happen is there's going to be in this limbo world where they can't do anything about climate change anymore because the ability to do so has been taken away from them.
So the idea is to restore them to the place where they can actually then actively do something about climate change again. Talk to me about the cycles that people in the Philippines in many other parts of the world go through as they already start to feel the impacts of climate disasters.
Year after year. Last week we had a typhoon that affected the whole country or you can have a series of typhoons like four or 51 after another, hitting several places at the same time and six months after that happens, another place set of places, the same places could get hit, they still haven't even recovered And that's because there is no funding available for that the most, you have humanitarian assistance that comes out of good will, which is good, but never enough to deal
with the problem one is either a fund facility dedicated to loss and damage because it's different from mitigation, it's different from adaptation and the eternal optimist. I've been doing this for 30 years, this is my 23rd conference of the parties. I know it's challenging, but I don't lose hope among others because I've also helped enable a new generation of activists of experts of negotiators that are actually doing the work here. So we'll get lots of damage done. I'm
absolutely certain about that. It could take a while, but I'm so absolutely certain about
that
cop is a strange beast. It attracts emotion and it's tense and stressful. That's unsurprising. Given what's at stake this time in Egypt things have been a little chaotic, but talking to most people involved, they still think it's the best mechanism to actually come up with solutions to existential questions about the future of the planet.
Not everyone agrees. Greta thunberg is one for example, she thinks this is just more greenwashing the theme of this cop was implementation actually getting things done to shift the needle on global temperatures and carbon emissions for me. That's going to happen when everyone packs and goes home. Hopefully with more open minds and critically open wallets, this has been Jack board, Thank you for listening to this special episode of the climate conversations. It's back to
regular programming and host. Next week. The team behind this podcast are Christina, robert, Jacqueline chan, daniel, lee, Joanne chan and Tiffany Young.