Michael J Fox: Looking Back with Attitude

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I'm Alan Alda, and this is Clear and Vivid, conversations about connecting and communicating. For the next couple of weeks, we're taking a short break from recording new conversations. But in looking through our list of almost 400 episodes, we've come up with two that we think are really worth playing again. They're personal to me. because each conversation touches on a major turning point in my life. And there are also turning points in the lives of the people I'm talking with.

This week we'll be revisiting the conversation I had with Michael J. Fox in 2018. Michael had already spent decades coping with Parkinson's disease, and I had just been diagnosed with it three years earlier. It was a welcome chance to compare notes on how we were handling one of the speed bumps life can throw your way. Michael, as always, was inspiring.

Michael, I'm so glad to be talking to you today. I've been looking forward to this because of all the conversations I've had on this show, this is probably going to be the most personal for me because you and I are now...

on the same journey together. And I'm very anxious to hear from you, your end of it, what you've gone through. How did you first find out you had Parkinson's? I woke up one morning and I had a twitch in my pinky finger. And then I realized that it wouldn't stop. And it just continued. And it was coming in days after my sore shoulder and then my...

A couple of days later, it was not just your pinky, it was your shoulder too? My shoulder, and then I was running one day on Monster's Vineyard, and Tracy saw me running, and I was taking longer to come back for my run than I normally do, and she came out and she said, you know, you left arm as a movie when you run.

Your left arm is over. You know, my wife Arlene said this similar thing to me. I don't run, but when I was walking, she'd say, you're not swinging your arms, swing your arms. And I didn't know that was a symptom. I just thought I was getting older and not swinging my arms or something. I didn't know what it was. So what happened after that? Then I went to a neurologist and did a series of tests, and this is one of the things...

We'll talk about it in terms of the foundation's work in predicting and pre-diagnosing Parkinson's. I'm so glad to hear that. What our goal is, because by the time this guy... ran me through a battery of tests which were kind of like sobriety tests I mean that primitive just touching my nose and clicking my fingers and putting one foot in front of the other um

I was deemed not ready to drive. Really? I mean, in the sense that using the driving test analogy, I failed it. Oh, I see what you mean. If it had been a sobriety test, you would have failed it. Yeah, I was taking my keys. See, here's what was so weird about my thing. First, Arlene told me that I wasn't swinging my arms, but I didn't know that was a problem. But I was starting to...

once in a while act out my dreams. Yeah, that's... And I didn't know that was a symptom either. I'm going to get to that. I... I would be having a dream I was being attacked by somebody, and I threw a sack of potatoes at him. And in reality, I was throwing a pillow at Arlene.

I had the same thing. Tracy lived in fear for a while that I was going to whack her in the night because I would have the same thing that someone was constricting my movement or holding onto my arms or trying to overpower me in some way. Isn't it interesting that these dreams... seem to be always involving an attack on us. Well, yeah, and a constriction and a restriction and a suppression.

So there must be something happening in the brain that's coming out as a dream. So we sleep with a big pillow between us, so I have a harder time reaching or if I'm fighting somebody off with my fists. Yeah, we do the same thing. So I read an article by Jane Brody in the New York Times in which she interviewed a couple of doctors who said they had a very high percentage of people who went through this.

sleep problem who turned out to have Parkinson's. And I didn't have any other signs at all. And I said to a neurologist, I want to take a scan. And he said, well, let me examine you. And physically, unlike you, physically, I had no symptoms that showed. I got up out of a chair easily. I walked well. I didn't swing my arms much, but that was a small thing.

Took a scan. He still didn't think so. Still didn't think I had it. He took a scan and he called me a couple of days later and said, boy, you really got it. Wow. And it was a few months later that I got the first twitch in my thumb. And I wanted to tell people about it then because I wanted to encourage people to find out about it early if they could before the symptoms show up. Yeah, the thing about the symptoms showing up is that I was told that by the time my...

Pinky twitched. Somewhere close to 70% of the dopamine producing cells in my brain were already gone. 70%. Wow.

When you first heard about it, what was your reaction? Did you say, oh, I've got to get mobilized and do something, or did you fall apart? Honestly, my first reaction was, you've made a mistake. Denial. Yeah, denial.

Quite frankly, I responded by drinking too much. I responded by just wanting to bury it and just not deal with it because it's the kind of thing where I had the pinky twitch and I had the sore shoulder and all that stuff, but that didn't amount to a lot in terms of carrying on with my life. At that point, it was stuff that no one would notice but me. And you're basically told the truck is coming and it's going to hit you at some point, but you don't know when. You can't hear it coming.

You can feel his vibrations subtly, but you know that at some point it's going to run you over because they don't know a way to stop it. Yeah. And so that takes some dealing with it. Luckily, you know my partner. My wife, who's just an amazing person, and I credit her with a lot of my ability to deal with this, and also shutting down my early attempts to deal with it in a nonproductive way.

drinking or by getting angry. You got angry and you drank? I got angry not specifically at Parkinson's, but I got angry at... This would befall me at this time. It's scary when you first get a diagnosis. The doctor said to me at the end of that perfunctory examination, and as he told me I had Parkinson's, he said, but you have a good 10 years left to work. And that was like, is that the good news or the bad news? I was like, wow. I mean, for me at that age, that was like...

10 years left to live. I mean, it was astounding to me. And so I took it at face value and I started to work like crazy and do all this stuff and do stuff I might not have done otherwise. I mean, I don't... I didn't want to disparage anything I did, but I didn't make all the choices I would have made. But all that time you were keeping it a secret, right? I was keeping it a secret. I kept it a secret for seven years.

I kept it a secret for three and a half years. My feeling after I finally made it public was tremendous relief. Yeah, it was a great feeling because I found that I was part of a community. That hadn't been before. I'd been isolated. I told my family. I told loved ones. I told some people that I worked with. But it was such a great relief. I always joke that I told Barbara Walters and People Magazine in a time before.

Social media. That was the way to get something out was tell Barbara Walters and People Magazine. But before you could Twitter it. But it was an amazing experience because there's this outpouring of first of... of sympathy and pity and things that were really disturbing and hard to deal with. And I would see people look me in the eye and say, are you okay? And I'd see in their eyes their own...

Fear reflected back at me. Right. That phrase, are you okay? I hear that. Somebody I haven't seen since I made the announcement. How are you? You know, there's something so deadly about that. How people communicate with us about it, it could be helpful to a lot of people who are Parkinson's patients to think about. The Parkinson's guy is working on it. Because if we have this sense of reality about it, and I think I've heard you talk about that, that you face the reality, finally. I got it.

Now what can I do about it? It's acceptance. It's accepting. Accepting doesn't mean resignation. Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. Acceptance doesn't mean resignation. No, you accept the reality of something. You accept the fact that this is a thing. It's not an amorphous blob of neurosis and fear and loathing in your head. It's a tangible thing. So I accept it. Now, I'm not resigned to live with that. I can endeavor to change it. What I realized...

pretty early on was I could hold back the progression of the disease if I took on a regimen of exercise. That's great. That was really... special to these problems. We both box. Yeah, yeah. I love boxing. It's not really boxing. I don't get hit. I have always avoided that. But I love the, and I march to Sousa music.

I do that in my head. When I walk down a hallway, I'll go... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I sing it when I'm walking on the street. I hum to myself and march in time. It really helps. I make up my own version of Tai Chi. This morning I was doing vocal exercises. If I don't vocalize, I lose my voice completely. So I vocalize twice a day. So I wouldn't waste any time while I'm doing it.

I also do little physical movements like I'm singing a big song. That's right. I think about it all day long. You must too. I do and I don't. What I don't do, what I think the key is, and I sense that you don't do this either, because I think it's deadly, is to project, is to think about where it's going. It's okay to understand where it is today, but I don't have to spend a whole lot of time where it's going to be tomorrow.

I mean, I do the things I do, exercise or managing my meds correctly or getting the correct amount of rest or doing things I need to do. But I don't do them so tomorrow is better. I do them so today is good. Yeah, me too. Yeah, at a certain point.

That's why you love the people that are around you and the people you're with and the people that are on your side and the people that think like you do and support you. Because not everybody can be expected to do that. So you have to draw your strength where you can draw it from. That thing, the difference between the person who says, how are you, and the way a loving wife can work with you.

the way Tracy does with you and the way Arlene does with me, that difference is enormous because Arlene is very frank with me and very matter-of-fact. Yeah. You're not standing up straight. Oh, yeah, thanks. That sounds like the Arlene I know. You know. Tracy's the same way. Tracy, but she'll say to me, and I'm kind of well known for espousing optimism and being positive about everything, but I was kind of in danger of not listening to my own advice.

And she said, this is today, and tomorrow will be better. And it's just that simple. Yeah. That idea of being in the present, which we practice as actors. We have to know how to be in the present. We have to be ready to react. It's really helpful in a situation like this. All I'm dealing with right now is getting the cuff of my shirt buttoned. Exactly. I'm not dealing with what this can turn into.

or what a sign it is that I'm not the way I used to be. I'm not thinking about the past or the future. I'm just thinking about the button right now. Exactly. It's so funny to hear you say this. It's just exactly the way I feel.

I find it really helpful. That's what I meant when I said it was a relief to just say, I got it, and let everybody else know, because it was kind of useless to pretend I didn't have it. when the obvious ocular proof of it was leaking out through my twitching fingers. I don't believe anything. And every once in a while I see somebody's look down at my hand and I think...

This is no secret to this person. What am I doing here? Yeah, I think about that too with a shoe, putting on a shoe. I don't think that it takes five minutes to put a shoe on. I think that I got the shoe on. That's right, yeah. And I also see no disgrace in finding ways to do it differently. For instance, I mean, this is pedestrian, but it's an example.

I used to take the shirt off the hanger, put it on, and then button my sleeves with the sleeves on my wrist. And I had one hand to do it with because the other hand had the sleeve. Now I leave it on the hanger, I button the cuffs before I ever try to put the shirt on. And I've got two hands to work with. And I said this to a friend who has Parkinson's, and he said, no, I don't want to give in.

It's not giving in, it's adjusting. I'm with you. Whatever easier way there is to do things. Whatever is easiest and not time efficient, not... better to help me meet some other expectation, but just better for me when it's more comfortable. Like I asked that when, I mean, I'm lucky enough that I have my shirts, I don't have to wash my own shirts and press my own shirts, but so when I'm the lady who does that.

hangs them up, I ask that you just do one button on the shirt when it's hanging because I don't want to undo all the buttons before I take out. I was just thinking of that yesterday as I was... trying to unbutton the top button on the shirt that came back from the cleaners. And I thought, I wonder if I should ask them not to button the top button, because that's very hard to get over.

Yeah. It was always a little smaller aperture. You know, I think I was doing what my friend said. I was saying, I'm not going to give in. I'm going to learn how to get this top button done. It's a tricky thing. You've got to know when you're making. progress adjusting to it, and when you're holding back progress.

When they told you had 10 years to work as an actor, how wrong they were, because you're determined. Well, and I also found another way to work. I found another way to express myself as an actor. They didn't rely on... some of the facility I had before. Yeah, that's, you know, all of us, if we hang on to what we had before, I think we're in trouble. If we were cute when we were 20 and we try to be cute when we're 60.

It's not such a good idea. I left high school in 11th grade and moved to California to become an actor. I did everything I was supposed to do. I'm a cautionary tale. It isn't cautionary because it turned out okay. But I did everything I was supposed to do. But I went to my history teacher before I left school and I said I was leaving school because he was someone I had a connection with. And he said...

Fox, you're not going to be cute forever. He said that? And I didn't know what to say to that, so I said, well, maybe just long enough, sir, maybe just long enough. And it turns out we were both right. Yeah, right. But you can build from one thing to another. And that's what you've done. I mean, I read someplace you said, I can play any character as long as he has a neurological disease. And what was fun about that, it was an extension of that.

outside of Parkinson's was it was fun to play a character with a disability who was an asshole. Yeah, yeah. I mean, so many times with people with disabilities, it's a stereotype that piano music plays and there's a... need for that the narrative to make that person

vulnerable and sympathetic. Yeah. And there's this feeling, oh, the poor is suffering saint. Yeah. So it's probably a guy who says, I have this, I'm going to use it to manipulate people, and I'm going to use it to further my own ends. Yeah, it's great. It's a human thing. You showed a human person there. And the thing that I sense when you play bad guys, oh, yeah.

I think of the aviator. Yeah. I loved you, and you were so great. Oh, yeah, it's nice. And I thought about that when I played this guy. I thought about... He doesn't know he's bad. No. He doesn't know he's... No, he's succeeding. He's doing what he wants. He's getting what he wants. It's great. When we come back from our break, Michael talks about how hard it can be to let the rest of the world know you've got this diagnosis and how he handled that.

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And now back to my conversation with Michael J. Fox. We picked up at the point when Michael realized he couldn't keep his Parkinson's diagnosis a secret any longer. Well, like I said, there was this, I call it my seven years in the desert, where I just kind of dealt with it. And I got about five years in, around 1994. I remember it being really dark days before then.

Like I said, with drinking and quitting drinking, which was tough. And tensions that it caused with my marriage, which had always been good and have been amazing since. And it just got to where I just said... I have to learn more about this. So about 95, about four years in, I started to really press my doctors and really press scientists and ask questions.

So then I gathered all this knowledge and went to work on my own show on Spin City. And after a time, I realized that I needed to tell people about it because it was affecting me. I had Parkinson's, but my character didn't have Parkinson's.

It was kind of difficult to keep a secret. There's so many things to think about when you're an actor. You've got to hit your mark. You've got to stay in focus. You've got to keep out of the other person's light so you don't put a shadow on them. You've got to know your lines. And now you have to also notice...

What can I do to keep from shaking during this shot? Can I lean against this desk? Can I manipulate this pencil? Can I roll this ball around in my hands? Can I clasp onto someone's shoulder? So... So then I decided that I needed to tell people, so I told them. And like I said, once I did that, I realized I started being approached by the Parkinson's community.

And I just saw that there were people that there was not only a resource to me personally in terms of having a shared experience and comparing notes and being part of a community outside of the business, outside of my family, outside of anything. It was just a unique... community that I belonged to. And I started to notice more people on the street, like the old lady that before was annoying when she took so long to get into the elevator and push the button.

I now recognize there's having symptoms of Parkinson's and related and said I'm part of this community. When you met the community of Parkinson's...

People with Parkinson's and researchers and so on. How did you find you could be helpful? Well, they reached out to me initially because it was only a few days after I disclosed my diagnosis. And it was funny because I have a similar sense of humor to you. I appreciated the fact that people met it with glee. And then the community, you know, great, Michael Fox has Parkinson's. How honest is that? I got a couple like that, too. It's so honest. It's great. You know, you're on our side now.

So I was open when they called, different foundations called, and different organizations called. And the first one I responded to, just because I have bent this way, was the political people that said, we're grossly underfunded. The science is ahead of the money. We have opportunities to do things. We need conscientious, deliberative, generous funding to fulfill our possibilities.

So I went to Washington with this group called Parkinson's Action Network. I testified in front of Congress. And the big thing for me developmentally was, and again being part of the community in a public way, was I decided not to medicate for my testimony. And so because when it seemed to kind of cleaned up version of me for years that had the disease and I'd put so much effort into hiding it and covering it up, I just thought I'd just let my free flag fly.

And I did, and it was very effective in the community. And the other thing that happened there was I testified alongside scientists who said to me at the time, and quite optimistically, and it turned out not to be the case, but all the same they said, We could be 5, 10 years away. If we press the agenda, we don't know how successful we could be. But their enthusiasm picked me up, and I just thought, well, if this is the case, if this is about research.

There are groups that do patient support and groups that do other treatments and line people with therapists and doctors. But there's no specific organ just for science.

just purely science. So I talked to a few people and I talked to some business people and they said to me, the people you want to get involved besides... scientific people and probably there's probably entertainment people that you work with that want to get involved on a board level but you want to get business people involved and people that are used to

to setting goals and accomplishing them. I want to get champagne on them at the end of the day when they have the big win. And I thought, that makes sense. So I put together this board and leadership. the company, the foundation, based on people that would find innovative ways to do this and not do it with a chapter-based foundation. Old retail kind of. But just find an organ that was a fast-moving, disruptive, take-no-prisoners attack on this disease. And that happened.

In that process, did you worry about any effect it would have on your life to be what you might call the poster boy for Parkinson's? Did that bother you at all? I didn't want it to be a vanity thing like Michael... In fact, I wanted to call it pedicure, but Tracy said, when I told her that, she said pedicure. So eventually I fixed my name to it, but... I want it to be a foundation that was serious and was going to get...

when people woke up in the morning and said, who's doing this, that we were doing it. So you'd be a focal point of the research. And so what we did was we decided very early on that we weren't going to have an endowment.

The science was ahead of the money, and we were going to deal with it that way, that the science is ahead of the money. So we want the money to go directly to the science. So you decided not to build an endowment, and as the money came in, you just spent it on research right away. But you must get an awful lot.

of money every year. Well, we fund over $100 million. We're worried about we should be at a billion dollars doled out within a year and a half. How do you do it? How do you raise so much money every year? We have amazing development people, and we have people that are very wealthy that are interested in this. That's so great. And they've made their bet with us. Yeah. Yeah.

You were really creating a structure. You weren't a two-dimensional image to raise interest or to lend your celebrity. You weren't lending your celebrity. You were lending your whole brain to it. I was offering my whole brain to it. I wasn't lending it. I was giving it in the sense that I go where my brain goes and my brain goes where I go.

And they both have to have, I always say mind and brain. Your brain can take over your mind, or your mind can take over your brain. And I don't prefer my mind to have the upper hand. My brain could decay and cells die and stuff like that, but my mind will direct what's left of it to do what I want it to do.

So what we're doing at the Foundation, one of the things that our real excitement is about, we cover many things in many areas. We've got our fingers in every bit of research all around the world. But we're really looking toward preventing... The manifestation of symptoms. And that means identifying the disease before it's manifest. So sleep is one of them. Sleep is one of them. The other one is lack of taste. Yeah. Lack of smell. Yeah. and diminished smell, diminished taste.

mostly diminished smell, and also then there are the genetic things that we've discovered, like there's a gene called Lurk2, there's an abundance of a protein called alpha-synuclein that is a... protein that misfolds. Now we understand all that stuff. So what we want to do is get a cohort of about 100,000 patients, non-patients, people with indicators.

Mostly people with indicators, the acting out sleeping, the not smelling, the maybe genetic predisposition, which like Lurk 2 is 3% of Ashkenazi Jews. And that's it. National Nazi Jewishness is also another risk factor. So we take that at-risk group, that loosely at-risk group of 100,000, and then we winnow them down.

So it's 10,000, then wind them down to 5,000. You would lean them down in what way? What do you mean? Well, in the sense that they may have those symptoms, but they don't have... Ah. In other words, to track what symptoms you can find. So we can ultimately get to a place where you can come in fresh as a daisy and we can say, you're going to have Parkinson's and you need to follow this course.

Right. In fact, it sounds to me like it's not so much that they're going to have Parkinson's, but they got it. And it hasn't shown its most obvious symptoms yet. They're going to have the symptoms of Parkinson's if we can react now. So what we would like to do is... short of curing the disease in the conventional sense. We would love to do that. But if we can eliminate the progression of symptoms and eliminate symptoms and help progression before it even starts.

I want to ask you about something that the Foundation does that I just found out about this morning, and I'd like to hear more about it, which is Fox Insight. What is that? You're gathering information from people with Parkinson's. We're gathering people's experiences with Parkinson's, and we do it a number of ways. They're measurable devices.

The watches that record your symptoms and your behavior as, you know, purely neurological, reactive, kinetic, when you're reactive, when you're slow, when you're... Bradykinetic, when you're dyskinetic, and also anecdotal experiences related to doctors and related to us. And we have this data. What do you mean by that, anecdotal experiences? Well, I take these...

Pills and they do this for me and I feel like this on certain days. I see. So they're giving you data about their experience. So we're getting a picture of the experience. And our primary... objective right now is to really get it down to that moment that was a nascent moment when it's when it's when the The proteins react with whatever, you know, they misfold. And why are they misfolding at that point? And at that point, can we arrest it?

So you're really working in many ways on early detection. Yeah, hopefully we'll get a point where we can do imaging or blood tests or something. But I would think imaging would be the most likely thing. that we can say, yes, you have nothing now, but there's a convergence of data that tell us that you are going to have Parkinson's. So, therefore...

Take this, this. So the hope is that there's, what everybody hopes for, I guess, is a pill or an injection. Some kind of therapy. That will just enable you not to go down that road. Or help progression and eliminate symptoms. Yeah.

And the thing that people say to me when I tell them that, they say, well, that doesn't do anything for you. And I say, it does everything in the world for me. It's the most amazing thing. If I could be a part of that. That would be astounding. I think one of the things that... I learned in this process of developing this, this ailment is that, and it surprised me because it has a name. And so you think it's one disease, but it seems.

It's almost like it's a lot of diseases because the symptoms vary from person to person. One day varies from one to another. You told me this. You were one of the first people I told that I had it. And I remember talking about how different each day is. One day you think, oh, it's gone. And the next day it's worse. It really is a bitch. And then the end...

The end time for two or three people with Parkinson's can have three completely different outcomes at the end of their life. They can outlive the Parkinson's. They can get dementia. They can not get dementia and have other hands. Am I right about that? Yeah, I always say people tell me, and quite sincerely, they say my...

My aunt died from Parkinson's or someone died from Parkinson's. I say, you don't actually die from Parkinson's. You inevitably at this point die with Parkinson's, but we're hoping to change that. but you don't die from it. And it is a multitude of... There's an assumption that it's a lot of different conditions that have similar triggers and similar neurological signatures.

that they can be traced, they can be connected, but they're different experiences. Like for me, I was diagnosed at 29 in 1991, and I would have never thought that in 2018 I'd have. as functional a life as I have. But that's one of the things that's holding us back as a people, as a culture, from not ditching... The stigma of Parkinson's and the stereotype of Parkinson's is that we hear the word Parkinson's and we picture the worst possible ending. Yeah. And we think, uh.

That's the end of your life. So many people have said to me, especially in the beginning, I'm so sorry. That's nice. I appreciate that. I can hear that it's coming from a place of belief that the world has just come to an end. The world might come to an end eventually, but it hasn't come to an end yet. An early detection.

is so important to me if it's coupled with the knowledge that you can do something about it. You know, I'm thinking as we talk, people are listening to this, and they're having whatever reactions they're having, but... What about how they relate to friends and family who have Parkinson's? What would you suggest? What's the best way to relate or somebody you work with? I think don't project.

If you're dealing with someone who has Parkinson's, you have someone in your life who has Parkinson's, don't project what you think their experience is onto them and try to anticipate their needs and wants based on what you think they're experiencing. Listen to what they're experiencing. And God bless you for being there and being supportive in the first place. But beyond that, let me quibble. Don't treat them like...

Like an alien. Or victims. Or victims, yeah, or something other. Mostly it's about projecting their own feelings. And people sometimes say to me, you know, there's old Harry, you know, we've been married. 40 years and I just keep doing this and doing that and he just doesn't know that I I just think that Harry let's get Harry in the conversation and hear what Harry has to say

Because you might think that that's unnecessary, some of the things you do. I mean, not to dump on caregivers. I mean, like I said, they're essential. But I mean, like Tracy... A story I always tell is I've written a couple of books, as have you. And one of the books I wrote was specifically about optimism, because I was always looking up. And I was having a hard time meeting my deadlines.

skip past a couple of deadlines and I was late and I was a little stressed. Writing the book, you mean? Writing the book. I was a little stressed because I hadn't got as much done as I wanted to. I said to Tracy, I'm never going to finish my book on optimism. And she said, you know, you said that a lot. Did you know how funny that was? No, I saw how funny it was when I saw her reaction.

I'm so glad to see that you're so active in this organization that you founded, that you're really helping make it all happen. And you didn't just have an idea and then other people took it over. Well, I don't show up to the office every day, but I am. But I'm certainly in touch on a regular basis with what they're doing and any new initiatives we come up with, they run by me and we have a conversation about it and certainly broader patient involvement.

talk about it so it's yeah it's it's very important to me that not so much it's very important to me that that my name is honest so therefore i want to be and that's all blah blah i just want it to work yeah and to the extent that i can contribute I will and to the extent that my contribution is not needed. I appreciate someone saying, you can shut up now because you're not bringing anything into the conversation. We've now gone beyond your ken.

Well, this hour has had an effect on my life because I'm going to go home and sign up for Fox Insight. Can I also see, aside from giving my own... details about what I go through. Can I see what other people are going through? Yeah, it's all available. I'll put you in touch with them. I'll get someone from the Foundation to call you and guide you through all our programs. This has been great. Thank you so much. This is so great to see you. Can I ask you, we do it, we end our...

conversations with seven quick questions that have something vaguely to do with communication. Are you game for those? Sure, six. Seven quick. I only do six. You only do six. Well, you can pick the one you don't want to do. Okay, here's the first one. This is an interesting question because we ask these same questions, but this is a funny one coming at the end of this conversation.

What do you wish you really understood? Why I like things to be mysteries. Oh, that's interesting. I wish I understood why I don't like... I don't... need to understand everything. You just need to understand specific things. I mean, if I could figure out Parkinson's, or I could figure out famine, or I could figure out something, it doesn't have to be everything, just one thing would be great.

And I figured out what to do about it, but I figured out why it happened. Here's the next question. What do you wish other people understood about you? I don't give a lot of thoughts. What other people think of me is none of my business. I hope they understand that I just want to be a cog in the wheel. I just want to be part of the process and part of life. What's the strangest question anyone's ever asked you?

Two that you've just asked me. Neither one. You haven't turned one down yet. Okay, here's another communication question. How do you stop a compulsive talker? Don't listen and answer in non-connected ways to what they just said. Just move on to the conversation. Not reprimand them and not... Say, I don't want to talk about that. Just to say, how about those meds? So just come in from another angle. Yeah, come in from another angle. Is there anyone for whom you can't feel empathy?

Yeah, bullies. I just can't stand bullies. It's so prevalent right now, what we're dealing with. I just can't. I have no time for it. I have nothing to add to what they... What they bring to the world. How do you like to deliver bad news? By in person, on the phone, or by carrier pigeon? By carrier pigeon. I don't like to deliver bad news.

You just don't like to do it. I don't like to do it because the way I would deliver bad news is the good news, bad news thing. I'd manufacture some good news to soften the ball if I had to. Okay. Here's the seventh question. What, if anything, would make you break a friendship? An act of cruelty against someone who couldn't defend themselves. Just that bullying thing. Yeah. I just don't have any room for cruelty and for forcing your will on somebody who can't defend themselves and can't. Yeah.

I mean, things like kids at the border. I've had such a good time talking with you. This was really fun. Thank you. Thank you for being so open. Oh, thank you. Thanks for coming. It was great to see you all. It was great. Thank you very much, my love. I will, and give Tracy a hug. I'll see you when we have dinner in a little while. Yeah, right. Okay, bye-bye. Bye. This has been Clear and Vivid.

At least I hope so. My thanks to the sponsor of this podcast and to all of you who support our show on Patreon. You keep Clear and Vivid up and running. And after we pay expenses, whatever is left over goes to the Alda Center for Communicating Science at Stony Brook University. So your support is contributing to the better communication of science. We're very grateful.

I'm very grateful to Michael for that conversation we had seven years ago. Since then, our progressive disease has continued to progress, and we continue to work on slowing it down with exercise, pills, and attitude. Plenty of Attitude. This episode was edited and produced by our executive producer, Graham Chedd, with help from our associate producer, Gene Chimay. Our publicist is Sarah Hill.

Our researcher is Elizabeth Ohaney, and the sound engineer is Erica Huang. The music is courtesy of the Stefan Koenig Trio. Next week, another conversation about a time that completely changed my life and the lives of the people I have the conversation with, my fellow actors from MASH, in a free-for-all conversation recorded in January 2019.

Jamie, Jamie, it's good to see you. How are you doing? Hiya, sweetie. Okay, wait. Let's not leave it in the dressing room. Let's get the other guy on. Here comes the great Mike Farrell. Hey, bro. Hey, kiddo. How are you doing? I'm good, thank you. I'm good. Now, Gary, do we have him on the phone? Hello? Hello, Gary. There he is. Hi, Gar. Hi, Loretta.

How are you? We're all great. So listen, let me start us off. This is really so great that we can all get together like this. You can hear Mike opening up a can of beer or something. What are you opening? Yeah, it's a can of beer. You know, you've changed since we worked together. You know, kidding each other like this reminds me of what I thought would be fun to get into a little bit.

with you guys because the show is about, as you know, the show is about communication a lot and relating. There's a show? The show we're on now, Clear and Vivid. Oh, oh. I didn't realize. We're doing a show, Mike. I thought this was like a good telephone call. Mike, I'll have to explain to you after we go off how to listen to Clear and Vivid. I think we'd really enjoy it, especially because you're on it. The Gang from MASH, next week on Clear and Vivid.

For more details about Clear and Vivid and to sign up for my newsletter, please visit alanalda.com. And you can also find us on Facebook and Instagram at Clear and Vivid. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye. Hey crafters, you're invited to visit the new knit and sew shop at Michael's. Find hundreds of fabrics in over 800 stores and over 100,000 styles on michaels.com. Shop your favorite yarn brands, including Big Twist, Karen Cakes, and Burnett in multiple styles and colors.

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