Ep6: Civil Rights and How to Make a Cup of Chai

wasn't objecting. Love. It's scary living Jesus out of me. I was literally in court and opposing counsel was just you know, giving their director cross and she's one of the judges, and she's just like looking at me like why aren't you objecting? This is objectionable object And I'm just like, don't know how to object, I don't know what to say. Oh my god, I'm losing my mind. And she's just like getting annoyed with me. That would just made me really sad. I was like, I can't.

That's just the worst things in life, letting her down like that. She's one of my idols, being a woman in the legal profession. It's not easy, and I hope things will change, and honestly, sometimes I have to be like, just take a deep breath. You can do it, because she has a little insecure and I think she came into my dream and it was like smacking that out of my mind. I am, as you know from my

responses to your questionnaire. A Brooklyn Knight born in britt A first generation American on my father's side, barely second generation on my mother's. Neither of my parents had the means to attend college, but both taught me to love learning, to care about people, and to work hard for whatever I wanted or believed in. Their parents had the foresight to leave the Old Country when Jewish ancestry and faith meant exposure to put RUMs and denigration of one's human worth.

What has become of me could happen only in America. Like so many others, I owe so much to the entry this nation afforded two people yearning to breathe free. In October, Broken Law School sent an all female team of second year law students to the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Competition, held virtually from the University of California Davis. The team is coached by third year students. They argue their case four different times in one weekend against some

of the top rising legal talent in the country. Then we saw Harvard, So we're all kind of just completely silent on the edge of our seats. We did notice that it was an all male team against an all female team. For these young idealists, the mock trial was a chance to see how their arguments could play out in the real world of American law. So you referred to homelessness as a cancer, and you referred to homelessness as causing the decay of America. Yes, it's Closingay, that's correct.

Where justice can be scarce and litigation is often a bare knuckled brawl. I'm Katie Fang. Welcome back to class action. Okay, everyone ready for the scrummage? Yeah, Samantha, you're ready. I'm just kidding my time. Hang. Okay, Well here, let's just let's go with Bree Child. Start with great drop. You're listening to episode six, Civil Rights and how to make a cup of chi Running your Honor. We begin to plaintiff has some passkeeping matters to attend to. Okay, well,

let's start with um introductions. I was born and raised in New York City, and I went to public school my whole life. My name is Ellie Sands. I'm a second year law student at Brooklyn Law School. My full name is Aliana, but I go by l A. After college, I came back to New York and I was a teacher in East Harlem. Just teaching at a school forty blocks north of where I went to high school felt like I was in a third world country. There were

things going on outside the school, like gang violence. There were things going on in my students Famili's incarceration that were severely impacting their ability to learn and perform in the school environment that was being ignored and was being

disciplined harshly. I knew that it wasn't right. I ended up coming to law school because I couldn't make the kind of impact I wanted to without a lot of great without being able to sit in the courtroom and advocate on behalf of the clients that I was working with. And I specifically wanted to do a civil rights competition because that's the type of law I want to practice once I graduate. Good afternoon. My name is Stubi Manicer, and I also represent the defendant Travis Gordon in today's case.

My grandmother was a social worker for survivors of domestic violence. Between her impact that she's had on me and my general interest, that's brought me to the victim advocacy throughoute UM working for a Court Room Advocates project where survivors of domestic violence reach out to us and we walked them through the process of filing for their petition for an order of protection and family court. And then this summer I was an intern in the Domestic Violence Bureau

at the Brooklyn DA's office, working with misdemeanors. I think the way people enter the system through domestic violence is interesting because it's not their choice. I find having connection with a victim and having their perspective is so important in doing justice. Good morning, your honor. My name is Catherine Boyko, and I, along with my co counselor, present the defendant Travis Gorton in today's case. I was born in Brooklyn, New York. My parents were born in Ukraine

and my mom was a lawyer back in Ukraine. My mom had to leave her home country to make sure I had a better life, so it was really important for me to carry on those dreams, carry on that ambition.

It's important to me personally because I see that you know from personal work experience that there are so many things that are just not right with the criminal justice system that I don't want to be overly ambitious and say that I'm going to be the person that fixes all of it, but I definitely want to play a part in that, to do what I can to make things better for other people, defend people who can't really stand up for themselves. Good afternoon, counselors. My name is

Antony Shawn. I represent the plaintiff, Miss Raley Taylor today. This is the first time I've ever done this. There are challenges. They're really just associated with, I think, overcoming your own discomfort and your own vulnerabilities and attacking those

head on. For example, I think I am a very non adversarial person, and obviously in a courtroom setting, it's an adversarial setting, so you do have people who are opposing counsel who are trying to potentially rile you up or potentially trying to make frivolous objections just to throw you off, and so dealing with that sort of discomfort has been challenging, but it's also something to confront before you actually get into a courtroom one day. Aeny is

the plaintiff defense Atene is the defense. A and Nelly have spent most of their law school years on Zoom, so it's only natural that they would be excited about being in court and in person. So right now we're in the Brooklyn Law School court room. So basically what it looks like. There is a jury box, there is a witness stand, there's a place where the judge sits um, and there is a giant audience. Portion of this room

takes that most of the room. The party with the burden of proof sits closest to the jury, So the plaintiff or the prosecution sits closest to the jury. So the plaintiff would sit here and then the defense would sit at the table farthest from the jury box. They've got to feel out the jury more. They've got the burden, and so I think the person with the burden really

has to convince the jury. It's better to be in close proximity because the closer you are to the jury, the more likely they are to see that council tables reactions, you know they're more likely to hear what they have to say. And the point of a direct examination is that you want the jury to be paying attention to the witness. You don't want the jury to be looking at you. You are not the star of the show.

Your witnesses the star of the show. Whereas on cross examination, so I'll be doing cross of this witness if Ellie is actually directing. So I stand here because I want the jury to see me and my reactions, and you, as the witness, are now looking at me and not them, So that actually has quite an effect on the jury as well, when you're diverting your eyes away from them.

I'm the closer. So the difference between opening and closing is that in closing you are reviewing all of the evidence that you brought in during your case in chief, so it's less scripted and more a summary of everything that came out during trial, a lot of which can be unpredictable, some of which could be good for your side, some of which could be bad for your side. So you have to be agile and sort of improvise some

of what comes out in the closing. You also have to flip the other side's theme that means that you want to turn the other side argument against them. So right now we're really ramping up for competition. It's less than a week away, or about actually a week away. It's a very intimidating process to present a case. You know, as law students were so unfamiliar with this and over zoom it's a whole other challenge. My name is Jane Dowling. I am the coach of the U. C. Davis Martin

Luther King Civil Rights Competition. Confidence is really key. We're not really making like substantive changes at this point. It's just sort of running through the material, practicing, honing in on some details, getting pumped up. Of course, we're law students. We all have strong personalities. Like you don't come to law school if if you don't have a strong volitions and strong opinions. Brooklyn Law was founded in nine one to serve working people, women, ethnic minority these and immigrants.

The school is across German Street from the Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg Municipal Building, on a stretch of pavement now named Black Lives Matter Boulevard. German Street runs down to the East River, an area that once held molasses and sugar refineries, both industries that were rooted in America's slave owning past. The young advocates on the Brooklyn Law Team keep that history in mind as they pack up their laptops and coffee and they fight through traffic to school

every day. The building faces Cabin Plaza Park, just blocks away from the Brooklyn Bridge. In the last few years, Cabin Plaza has become the epicenter of many of Brooklyn's most heated protests. My name is Stacy Kaplow, and I'm a professor of Blood Brooklyn Law School, the very progressive and liberal student body here in New York. I'm also the associate dean for experiential Education at the law School. It's what's called a standalone school. In other words, were

not part of a larger university. So as a school, we have a lot of independence and kind of nimble in terms of what we can and kind of do. Because we're located in the heart of New York, we have access to all sorts of resources within what is clearly the largest legal community in the world. So our students are out there all the time working, as well as obviously going to school and learning how to become lawyers.

The Brooklyn team has worked on arguments for both sides of the problem for the King competition, and they have to picture what could possibly come at them. Whether they're representing the plaintiff or the defense, they have to be ready for anything. An overview of this case is that an executive order was put into place by the governor of a made up state called the State of Columbia.

This executive order implemented what is called a shelter station, which is supposed to take homeless individuals off of the street and help give them a place to stay, food to eat, a roof over their head. The plaintiff is bringing an a commendment prol and unusual constitutional violation against the defendant. Firstly, a homeless person is taken to shelter station against their will. It's a detention center for which they do not know how long they will be detained for.

A homeless person must complete classes in English and math, they must several hygiene requirements, they have to engage in a job while they're at the shelter station. And lastly, and perhaps most burdensome, and they have to prove that they have permanent housing before they're released. But they're unable to save up money while they're at the shelter station. The competition is the Martin Luther King Civil Rights Trial Practice Competition. You See Davis School of Law has been

hosting that now for the last four years. I'm Dennis Coda. I supervised the trial practice program at you see Davis King Hall. I am a magistrate judge for the Eastern District of California. There's a new option to help get dozens of people off the streets of Sacramento. This is the city's newest homeless shelter. Up to one people will begin staying here next week. The X Straight Navigation Shelter is near Broadway at Alhambra. It is more than just

a place to sleep, though. There's also life skills classes, recovery assistance, medicare care, and financial counseling, as well as services for help people transition from homelessness to permanent housing. Being in a city where you're having to step over the people living on the sidewalk made me realize that this is a societal issue with no easy solutions, and I thought this would be a good topic because these people, while they're clearly creating a strain on their community still

have rights, They're still citizens. Martin Luther King is a towering figure in the civil rights area, and as we've struggled to realize the American dream, let us realize if we do not struggle alone. The law school at U C. Davis is named after Martin Luther King. The students daily walk past a life size ceramic figure of the late civil rights leader in the lobby of King Hall, even though that of difficult days ahead, even though before the victory is won, somebody else will have to get scotta,

somebody else will have to go to jail. Maybe some will have to stay physical death for the victors one some would be just understood, called bad names, be this mist, dangerous, rabbit rousers, and agitated. Even in the mist, that's the struggle must go on. In the run up to the event, the Brooklyn Team practices against mystery teams, made up of alumni who volunteer to help the two Whales get ready to compete. The only job you ever had was babysitting. Correct? Yes?

Oh wait, wait, what the hell is I'm not the witness. Oh my god, I'm sorry, I'm the I'm the attorney. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry so sorry to be back up. You take it away. I will be the attorney. They go at it night and day. That is all for defense, Okay, Okay, plaintiff, do you have any additional

house giving matters to address? Yeah, your honor. We just asked that everything that applied to defense also applies to plaintiff, of course, and also as a as an aside, your honor, do too my own version of cruel and unusual punishment from back to back horses. I may be eating throughout because I haven't had any food since I don't know how long, So if you've seen me eating, I'm sorry,

No problem at all. Thanks for the heads up. Okay, any other housekeeping matters from Lindon the practice judges talk strategy to bring the four Nubies up to speed, just keep your answers to yes or noltees. The witness if chances the question can answer, however, she deals counsel. If you're not getting the answers you want, you might want to narrow your questions a little bit. Hey, sorry, Anna, don't apologize to me. Okays. Off, It all comes down to for students and a coach or two in a

room working hard. That's Adam schlahead coach at Fordham University and one of our commentators, thinking about the case and arguing and figuring it out and practicing and running it again. That's the same at every single law school. It's what happens in that little room. The learning happens in that little room. Resources don't give anybody an advantage in that little room. You need people who really care about this and care about the students learning, and students who are motivated.

You know, you can get that anywhere, and you need to really tie yourself very very closely to the law. Laura Basilon is a former federal public defender who now teaches at the University of San Francisco School of Law and runs its highly acclaimed racial Justice Clinic. It's not enough to just have bravado and style if there's nothing

else behind it. You have to absolutely understand what the governing law is and if you're the prosecutor, be prepared to prove every element, and if you're the defense counsel, figure out which elements you don't need to contest and which ones you do. So, Laura, when you're working with your students, is there something that you do to be

able to say to them. Look, on one end, you can't have an over zealous prosecution, but also on the other end, you can't have criminal defense attorneys that have blinders on. How do you work with your students to let them know that this is a possibility when they go out into the real world. I think it is really important to be honest about the fact that we have a lot of failings in this system, and they're on both sides. So you're right. There are plenty of

over zealous prosecutors. There are prosecutors who suffer from tunnel vision. There are prosecutors who commit misconduct, most of them not intentionally, but because they haven't been trained properly or they get caught up in the moment. At the same time, there are plenty of defense attorneys who are not doing their jobs. They may be poorly trained, they may be overwhelmed, or

they may quite frankly, just be lazy. And we have had many, many cases where the level of advocacy at the trial court on behalf of our post conviction clients has been absolutely abysmal. We're in good shape, but the more I learn about their situation, the more just devastating. It is. I'm also blown away by how kind and optimistic she is the more I learned. I mean, the system fails her over and over and over again, and

she just continues to be the most wonderful person. Yeah, and she'll also text us and say like, how are you feeling today? Like, thank you so much for everything you're doing. She's just she's so grateful, so sweet. In addition to trial team Ellie and third year law student Regina, you are working together on a real world case for the Brooklyn Defender Service. Any law school these days would have to have some clinical offerings, but we've been doing

this for fifty years now. Stacy Caplow is the supervisor for the clinic. Most students here fro the law school, by the time they're finished, have three, four, maybe even five semesters of experiences in either in our clinics, which are in house or off campus in offices all over the city. So that's the annoying forum that the Pardon office requires. So how far along are we on the forum?

Actually almost done? Um, most of it's filled out. So our client is a woman and a mother and a daughter and has been in this country from at least half of her life and all of her adult life. She first came here as a young teenager and had lawful status in the US, but as a result of a single mistake she made that violated federal law, she was prosecuted, convicted, served a sentence, and then was put

into deportation proceedings. So one form of relief that we can try to obtain for them is to get a pardon from the President, and that pardon has the possibility of acting as, in effect, a defense to their deportation. Not a lot of people get pardons. You still want to do this, yeah, all right, good with all the aggravating details. That's what makes me want to do it more. I do by far and the most meaningful yes, yeah, okay,

good good. I know Ellie from working with her this semester in the clinic, and she is dogged, but also has extremely warm and pleasant way of expressing herself. And I think she's a good example, as is a Jany. If there's a way that you put yourself out there and you present yourself, be true to yourself, they really don't need to yell and scream um. They can just be calm, collected and forceful without having to pound the table.

So on Friday, around one o'clock, we had a little team get together over Zoo like we would in like a locker room sort of. This is a jenny pump each other up, let each other know that we're not going to be more ready than we are today, Like we were about to go into a game, and it was like leave it on the scoreboard, and then in the hour right before we actually entered the competition room.

I have some like personal rituals that I do which include listening and dancing to a very embarrassing Aretha Franklin respect by myself in my room alone. It's I actually have not even like admitted that to a lot of people, So it's a very sacred ritual to me. Well, you just admitted it, probably to a lot of people. But that's okay, it's out. It's out now exactly very well, plaintiff, are you ready to proceed with openings? Yes, your honor,

we're ready to proceed very well. You may proceed. A veteran, a patriot, a United States citizen stripped of the rights she risked her life to protect, may please the court. Opposing counsel members of the jury. My name is A Jenny Shaw, and I, along with my co council, Miss Eli Sands, represent the plaintiff, Ms Riley Taylor. In today's case, A Jenny opens as Brooklyn Law takes on the University

of Connecticut in round one. It's her team's first appearance ever at a competition, and after she was honorably discharged, she again answered the call to keep our country safe as a mechanic on military aircrafts. Unfortunately, you will learn that Miss Taylor was let go from her job, and just after she was let go, you will hear that her welfare check started getting smaller and smaller. So Miss Taylor became just another data point in the city of

Oakland's growing homeless population. The Brooklyn team argues that the plaintiff has value and humanity. They deny that the homeless were rounded up in order to help them. Instead, Brooklyn insists the homeless were arrested for being poor. Now, Chick Gordon business was better in downtown Oakland, sure, yeah, but the homeless population still existed. Yes, we were not able to eradicate it completely. He referred to homeless individuals as skid row rejects. I may have them. You referred to

homeless individuals as derelics. Yes, you referred to homeless individuals as Mr ratsto oh in connection with the public defecation, yes and vermin Yes. Jumping ahead to your critical Chief Barden, you enforced executive order one of your team. Right after the round, the team gathers online to wait for feedback, and they hear that they beat Yukon, but the judges say they need to work on a few things. Remove all references to I believe. I think the court doesn't

care about your feelings. It doesn't care about your beliefs. The court cares about the law. It cares about the facts, and it cares about what's happening on the record. It's not that you believe it's this, It's that this is the law. There are times when I think you all could have done a better job listening to your witness, especially on direct out. They often felt like maybe an objection came up, or your witness didn't give you the exact answer, and then you've had a hard time pivoting

from there. Well, thanks everybody, that was a great round. I thought the plaintiff your crosses were good, very very good. In fact, Ellie, your cross was was very good. Brooklyn Law is listening. They beat Texas A and M in round two. Then their power matched too, you see San Diego. Yes, I also asked promotions to strike of all answers that referenced camps from the records that I'm not gonna do.

You let the cat out of the out of the bag a little too too early, So we're just gonna go ahead and perceive what we have that Mr Alfred's where are you going after you testified with this, I'm going back to the shelter station. How long have you been in the shop station since January? You see? San Diego wins round three, But the judges have some surprises in store for the Brooklyn team. We were all at

on Jane's house and we were starving. None of us had eaten yet because it was like a thirteen hour day. We had gone straight through. We had ordered pizza and like you were just stuffing our faces because you're so hungry at that point. So we were sitting on the couch and on the screen they were about to give off awards and I was just like, oh, you know opening statement awards. You know, Engineer Phoebe should get that. And then the first thing that comes on is on

Jane's name. What just happened? We got them that opening statement. We just all tackled her to the ground and we're crying and screaming and so happy. And to get recognized for something that I had no idea how to do three four months ago out of a field of forty four other people who gave opening statement, is from Ivy League schools all across the country, so many talented advocates.

Was extremely validating that I have picked the right thing and I can do this and this is for me, even though some days it may not feel like it. And then they announced the semifinalists and they named the

schools one by one. One school went by, and another school went by, then the third school went by, and we were the fourth school and our name pops up on the screen and it was an eruption of screams and joy and like shrieking and my my next I feel so sorry for my poor next door neighbors who have young kids, because it must have been like Eastern time when this was happening. We were like, oh my god. We were screaming, we were chumping, we were screen too.

We were like laughing, we were crying, we were hugging. It was like it was such a it was a mess, but it was so exciting and I'm so glad we got to share that moment together. And then we were like, we gotta go home, like we have to prepare it for tomorrow morning. And the way it worked was that there was a coin toss to see which side of our team would be competing in the semifinal, and our school on the coin toss, so our coaches chose to have Aujany and I go. Then we ended up putting

on a case in the morning. Harvard was the reigning champion of this competition. They had one last year going against Harvard. I think, sure, the name is intimidating. And when I told my parents, I mean, they were just ecstatic. They know how much time has gone into this and how much sacrifice I've had to make. Because they're right over the bridge in New Jersey. We just knew she was preparing. She was up against the big teams that have proved themselves in the past, and it was going

to be a formidable competition. Doctors Lena and Proteston Shaw are Angine's parents and when she told us about how well their team did unexpectedly and how she did um personally on a personal level, how how she excelled, we were just so happy and proud of it. Well, to me, it was not unexpectedly. To me, it was I knew, no, I meant for the team. For the team, like for the school in Brooklyn Law School had never had never been placed that high in this sort of a competition

first time during this competition for Brooklyn. If you're passionate about something, you can only be successful. Can I make you a cup of tea or something? Just want to drink some China? Absolutely, it'll be spicy. How about you, Laura, I don't know about spicy. It's like it's flavorful. It's yeah, we'll try a little bit. Yeah, okay, let me make them. This is lose Lift tea. So I got three cups of water in there. I have two tea bags. Put three spoonfuls of loose lift tea. Then I have this

is chai masala. Masala is cardamom black pepper clubs. So that's the spice. So Angie is the middle child. You know, from the day she was born, she already had that sense of fairness and justice even when she was much younger, Like you know, she would take an issue, however small, and just come up with an argument and say why this is not right. So I'm basically the first lawyer in the family. Kind of something that I had to chart by myself. I think I told them after the fact.

I was like, okay, yeah, I'm on the court team. They were like, we have no idea what that is. I do think that the color of my skin makes it such that I need to be more prepared than whoever my adversary is at every turn. I mean, it's certainly something I've just had to live with my whole life,

and at this point it's become a hustle. It's become a hard work in a way of life, because I know that the only reason my parents got to where they were, and subsequently how they've been able to support me to get to where I am is because of all of that hard work and being more prepared the person standing next to them. That's really all it comes down to, you, Okay, I'm the oldest of four siblings. I lost my dad at a very young age. My

mother raised us all four by herself. You know, she managed to make sure we were all not only just provided for, but also went on to be well educated in professionals because I went to medical school at a very young age. Um like, I was not even eighteen when I started medical school. This was in India. So I went from a small town to a big city to learn medicine. And that's where I met him. And he was, you know, a quote unquote foreigner because he

came from Kenya. I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, and my father was born in Nairobi, Kenya. Kenya was a British colony. East Africa was a British colony. My father was a very a person of modest means. We lived the one bedroom apartment, five of us. I'm the middle of three siblings, so my father said, okay, you know who's going to become the doctor here, you know, so

it was left up to me. And being a person of modest means, education is very expensive abroad, England, America, things like that, and so I opted to go to India where the education was cheap. Four and a half years in medical school and then I decided to come here to the United States. It took me two years to find a residency, and it was somebody gives you

an opportunity. Oh dad, I think the water. He hasn't thought of the whole journey in a long time, so all like with this much detail, it's all coming back to him. So thank you, Kevin. He probably needs no. I ended up getting an opportunity from from a residency training director. My own director who gave me the externship called me up and said, come and do a residency with me. I don't need to interview you. I know who you are. You're still in touch with him. He's

your mentor. He was an immigrant himself. Okay, Then I flavor it with cardamom, ground up cardamom. Okay. Then I'm gonna get some mint, and I'm going to get some ginger, fresh mint, fresh ginger. This is the ratio I use. Everybody doesn't use the same ratio. So I'll take my ginger and I'll greet some ginger in it right always you get smell, right, And then I'll take some fresh mint, the fresh mint in there, and then I will come to a boil, because you've got to let it boil.

And then you'll lead the mill starting with the plaint if you have any other housekeeping matters to cover that I have not covered right from the start. The judge is tough on Ellie. Yes, your honor, the plaintiff has a few housekeeping matters to attend to. Firstly, would your honor like a courtesy copy of the plaintiff's notice of appearance? No, I don't need one. Would your Honor like a brief recitation of the facts for today's case, not as a

housekeeping matter. Now, your honor, for judicial notice. We have discussed our emotions in Lemonade with opposing counsel during pre trial, and I've stipulated to exclusion of three pieces of evidence. Those are Lemonade matters. I am asking only for housekeeping ma or stipulations will cover, Yes, you're owner. Additionally, your honor permission to have local roles constructively read into the record. Local rules do not need to be read into the record.

He was a tough clicking for sure, But Ellie, you know, she stood her ground. She like recuperated, and she you know, she was not phazed, and I'm really proud of her for that. And so I was literally sitting on the edge of my seat, my whole family was actually watching two as spectators, and they were on the edge of their seats too. But just because those competitors go to Harvard Law School doesn't necessarily make them better advocates than

us because we go to Brooklyn Law School. You've all had the material for the same amount of time, you've all been training for the same amount of time, and you all have the same resources to a certain extent, going against four males. But it's interesting that was the first thing Aye and I said to each other, is that we're going against all male team and we have

a male judge. The case is on Ellast questions Phoebe, who was acting as a witness, how long have you been at shelter Station three and Salford over a year and a half. Do you know how much longer you'll be there? For? I have no idea, No one has actually told me. All I know is that I can't leave. Why not all their requirements Before I can leave, detainees must work. I have to take classes and hygiene, math and English, and I need to pass the test that they give us at the end of my every month,

and the test is really hard. Why is the test her? All their whole bunch of word problems on the math test, and I don't have enough time to complete the questions. They also can't use a calculator. Would you recognize that test if you saw it here today? Yes, your honor directing witness Court and counts's attention to what has been pre marked as child exhibit to premiss to share via the screen share function constructively outside the presence of the jury,

You may proceed. Please let the record collect drown. I have an objection to this exhibit on you're premature for your hairsay objection precede council on Jenny pushes back against the Harvard defense. So let's start by talking about the shelter station program. Can you describe it for the jury? The shelter station program was a rehabilitated program putent place because the state of Columbia was in a state of crisis on two grounds, one being speculation and to being

lack of expertise. And I can explain further your owner, if you wish, I have not yet had the witness tendered as an expert. So it's a little proper objection would be foundation. And if you are disputing the qualifications of the expert. You're free to or dire if that's your request, Your honor, may I planned if you wish to order, are the expert? Yes, rounder may enquire you may. Dr Cole. You've based your conclusions today on the established

principles in our field of urban social symmetry. That's correct. Urban social symmetry is a relatively new field. Yes, it's an exciting new field. And you testified that urban social symmetry is about how demographic groups interact with each other. Correct, exactly, and the effects it has on urban life and communities exactly. Just a yes or now I will suffice, Dr coll Thank you. Dr Cole. You consider homelessness to be one part of that broad specialty. That's correct. You're aware that

the issue in today's case is homelessness. That's correct. We're not here to discuss urban social symmetry. No, note that the fields the home. That's correct. In fact, today is the first time you're testifying about homelessness. Yes, that's correct. No of the questions, your honor, he does not meet the first requirement a Federal of evidence seven O two and should not be tendered as an expert today. As on Jenny Cross, examines a key witness. She's honing in

on Harvard's main line of argument. She denies that shelter stations are a way to help homeless people. Instead, on Jenny insists the city and state are more interested in scoring points with voters for cleaning up the streets. They don't really care about helping the homeless. You may proceed, cross samination, Yes, Dr Cole, can you hear me all right? Yes I have? Dr Cole. Have you testified as an

expert before? Yes? I have. And you get paid by your client each time you testify today, the client paying your fees the defendant, right, that's correct. I think I saw what they were trying to do, and that actually lit a little bit of a fire in me to say, this expert is trying to sound really good and pull the wool over the jury's eyes and pull the wool over my eyes, frankly, and it's not gonna work. And you're aware of that Executive Order one one three created

by Governor Ferris is that issue in this case? Yes, I'm aware of that, Dr Cole. You've published research about urban social symmetry, that's correct, and much of that research is specifically focused on homelessness. Right. Yes. For example, you published a piece titled a Societal Sickness, the cancer called homelessness. Yes, that's correct. You also published a piece titled a Society out of Balance, Homelessness and the Decay of the American Community. Yes, exactly.

So you've referred to homeless individuals as a cancer. I referred to homelessness as a cancer, not homeless individuals. It's it's a fine distinction. It's a kind of upon the people who inflicts. So you referred to homelessness as a cancer, that's corect And you've referred to homelessness as causing the decay of America. Yes, it's closing today. That's correct. This expert is an expert in urban social symmetry, which is just absolutely the most absurd specialty I've ever heard of.

Sorry to anyone out there who is actually an expert in urban social symmetry, I'd like to meet one some day. Yeah. I felt that that was the most effective way to make this expert really look silly. So those traps were very purposefully laid. Everything now depends on the closing. It's Ellie against Harvard. She argues that the defendant and affect sentenced a veteran too indefinite detention at a shelter station, and she denounces the defendant's refusal to take the stand.

Members of the jury. The defendant didn't even bother to show up in court today. The defendant himself has no defense. There were countless other ways the defendant could have helped the homeless population he chose not to. In its closing argument, Harvard flips that fame, claiming the shelter stations are meant to help. This is a part of the process that

activist lawyers relish. Ellie goes straight at the defense in her rebuttal ms Taylor and all homeless people in the state of Columbia are subject to future indefinite detainment because of the fact that they are homeless. The defendant is not interested in eradicating homelessness. The defendant is interested in eradicating homeless people. The defendant has used belligerent language to describe Miss Taylor and other homeless people before. Words like

vermin and derrelics are simply part of his vocabulary. The fact that government officials like Chief Boarden use words like this to describe members of the public show he's not qualified to be a public servant. Now this executive order wants all homeless people together under the definition of vacancy. That's not alex and thank you. You guys would like to give feedback if you want, and then being little common announced which team moved on. This is by far

one of the best about trials I've witnessed. I've tried to take notes. Um, I couldn't see much room for improving. I want to take note of when you guys actually become lawyers so that i can set my retirement for that time, because I'm not going to be able to compete next. I was honored to be here today. These are two extraordinary teams for extraordinary future lawyers. I'd be happy to work with you. Um. My job is on the general counsel for three D and forty billion dollar

financial institutions. I hire lawyers all the time. I've retained lawyers all the time. All four of you would be in my pool. I'd hire you anytime. You've chosen the right profession. You're extraordinary. Judged a number of these my trials over the years, and I think this is the best that I've see. I have to say, you're all terrific. My only suggestion would be that the closing argument probably ought to be easier to remember than a long argument.

I will I will echo those comments that you know, when when you get out in practice, you're going to find that the hardest part about jury trials or any kind of court appearance is standing up in front of twelve people who couldn't escape jury duty, or three judges that you think know the law so much better than you when they really don't, and not stammering and losing your place, and then sitting down and realize that you didn't sip up your fly after the last trip to

the restroom. I guarantee you those mistakes will happen to you, But I would encourage you to focus your opening statements simply on your narrative of the facts. How can you explain the facts of your case in a persuasive way in three minutes, in a way that would persuade your Trump supporting drunk uncle at Thanksgiving to believe your case. The judges issue their ruling. Piet Civilian congratulations to all teams that made to the semifinals. It was I mean,

it's been wonderful having you all. This is a very very close round. UM, but the team that is advancing to the final round is Team f Congrats also team and a wonderful job, really really congratulations you all. Everyone's been doing wonderful and good luck Team FUM in the next round. I do questions. I'm going to jump back to the main room, so ask me questions there, but otherwise everyone else is free to go. Thank you all. Congrats through Harvard advances. Brooklyn is out. You know, they

through a huge curveball at us. They didn't call the defendant and they were representing the defendant in their case. And we've run so many hypothetical so we've practiced against so many different people, We've combated so many different personalities, thinking that we had prepared for every possible scenario. In no possible scenario did we ever think the defense would not call the defendant. I ended up having to give a cross examination that I had never done before because

I normally crossed the defendant. And I had to rewrite my entire closing statement during the trial because my entire closing statement was attacking the character of the defendant. So there was a lot of agility and adjusting necessary in that round. I felt that it was so close. Like, honestly, when we were getting the judges feedback, I go through the it's like it's been what like a month now. I go through this almost like daily in my head

on my why did we lose? So? I think that I felt we won UM just because of how hard we worked and how good our trial was, despite the craziness of what happened behind the scenes. I felt that we watched away as winners UM despite not advancing to the final round. Their advocacy was better than our advocacy in that round, and that's why they won. Harvard didn't call the defendant that was well within their choice. We as a team fell short in preparing for that possibility.

I learned a lot from that competition. I learned more than anything, to expect to be thrown off your game. It's a matter of anticipating that there is going to be something in the course of the trial that you are not going to expect, and you need to go in being prepared to go outside of your comfort zone, going in being prepared to do something differently than what you anticipated. It's a little bit of a metaphor for life. Sure, it'd be nice to be at Harvard, but the Brooklyn

team has learned a valuable lesson. Soon they'll be walking out the door to take the bar exam, and instead of practicing for mock trial, they'll be practicing law and on behalf of their real world clients. They'll never let someone do that to them again. I think for myself, for Anjany, for the rest of our team, and for coaches, this isn't a game for us. This is what we want to do with our lives, and we're very much

invested in social change. We're very much invested in the issues that this case raised, homelessness, police discretion, poverty, criminal justice, constitutional rights, and so for us, this was really an introduction to our careers, and so it really wasn't about winning or losing. It was about representing our client and our values and our morals in the best way that we could. I think the biggest update that we have

is that your pardon is officially filed. Crystal. It's a five hundred page application that we sent over to the federal part in office and now we just wait. Now we just wait for a response. Okay, Crystal, how does it make you feel to know that you have this exceptional group of people that are just good people as human beings, but are exceptional advocates that are working for you to help you and your family be able to

stay in the United States. Afuly, very wonderful, feel very blessed, and I thank all of them for their help to tell the time. You know, take my case. I understand that your family has faced great tragedy and that there is this possibility that if you were to return to Jamaica that you yourself would be at serious physical risk of harm and maybe even death. I can't imagine how difficult is for you to have to kind of process

all of this information. How do you manage this just on an emotional level, on a personal level when you think about on a day by day basis, like what your future maybe let it's not it's hard. It's hard for me and my kids because I'm sorry. It's like is getting close up to court days and my kids

cry all the time. You know. Now everybody starts sleeping in the room with me, said they're trying to spend time with me before and then my family comes over Myney's and never said they coming back over for spring breaks. It's like it's really sad and Ellie, if you had that unfettered, completely free conversation, maybe with the immigration judge, or maybe if it was just Joe Biden just sitting

there across from you, what would you say, Ellie. I'd probably read them a couple of paragraphs from the part of application. I would just look at the pardon official in the eye and asked them, you know, what would you do if you couldn't feed your child? And how would you want to be treated? Okay, this is an introductory paragraph to the entire pardon. In this application, we will share Miss Morris's story with you. It is a

story of resilience. Crystal Morris is a woman who refused to let herself be defined by the cruelty and hardships inflicted upon her, but instead took the fragmented pieces left behind by her abusers and the murderers who took the lives of her brothers, and turned these misfortunes into a beautiful, complex and full life. Ms Morris has, against all odds, created a stable home for herself, her six children, and

her mother. In this application, we will bring you into her life, through the past into the present, and provide a window into her future. However, we implore you to recognize that Ms. Morris is so much more than we could ever explain through words on a page. Crystal Morris is joy and grace embodied. We hope to provide you with the opportunity to become as moved and inspired by Miss Morris's incredible display of strength and perseverance as we

have been. Crystal. I'm sure that there are miracles, but it sounds like you've got angels on Earth oat of looking out for you right now in the form of Aliya, Michelle and Dan and everybody. So I wish you the very best of luck, Crystal. But if I had anybody like these fighting people fighting for me, I feel like I got a little bit of luck and I got a whole lot of some of God's grace helping me

out right now. Thank you. As for the rest of the season for Brooklyn law the team won the Fordham University Kelly Competition, beating u C l A. Ellie competed in the regional national Championship for the Texas Young Lawyers Association, advancing to the quarterfinals. She was then voted on to the national team for next season. On Janie competed in the Queen's County District Attorney's Competition, advancing to the quarterfinals. She was selected to serve as president of the Moot

Court Honor Society. But I received the phone call saying, hey, the judges are saying that you guys are cheating because you have one advocate playing all the roles. Before you all remove yourselves from the room, can we have the team for the plaint We need to verify who which one of you all be which portions of the trials. So the only thing that's similar to them is that

they're both latin Us, they're both brown skin. Other than that, it's two completely different people and you can't make them up. That's next time on class Action. Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. This episode was written by Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Nordbell. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan

Tire and Taylor Chacogne. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.