Ep11: So You Want to be a Lawyer?

your rule is going to be. You don't know how they're going to use you. You Yeah, you just don't know anything or anyone or like you know, are the ad is intimidating? Are thing nice? Well? They like you where they give you where you know, you don't know anything. Um So the first day was like all about figuring out all of that stuff as well as can I leave for lunch? Where's the bathroom? Like yeah, it was

really really intimidating. Um So I have all of the misdemeanor courts and so like it's like fourteen of them, fifteen of them, so you know, um if one of the ads is like, oh, we're going to trial, on the stage and we come, I'll go to trial and fourteen for all being like picturing with them or whatever. So it's pretty cool, Okay. I think it's this way. Rock to to seven five. The State of Texas versus to Day is March thirty. Yesterday we has lending jury

swarming again and then then whether the rain. Less than a month after their run to the National Championships stalled at the one yard line, X teammates Andy Viscia and Jasmine ole Gaene are about to face off in an actual criminal trial at the Bear County Courthouse in San Antonio.

It's a misdemeanor case. Andy will be second chairing for the d a's office and Jasmine will be in a similar role with her defense firm, and to up the stakes, the defense team's lead attorney is none other than Jason Goss, their former coach from the St. Mary's Trial team. I'm just really proud, you know. It's kind of like going against a child, or's something where you know you're proud of him, but you're also trying to beat him. Um, and I do want to beat them because I think

it's justice for my client. It's I mean, it's so cool. I mean, I just I want to be just like him. It's it's crazy, it's so cool to see him. On the other hand, I didn't know we're going to be going in directly, had ahead, but you know, somewhat I was. I was nervous. I couldn't you breakfast, I had to drink tea. I wasn't I didn't crack a Celsius until until later on in the day when I had calmed down. And it's like, you stand and deliver, you don't care

who's on the other side. I'm feeling excited, for sure, interested to see how the rest of this case plays out. But as of now, I feel like my heart is like kind of like in a little like a little fire in my heart because of this. Because everything we've been hearing and seeing, it's so like upsetting that we're here trying this case and didn't. Even more bizarre twist, Jason's wife and fellow trial team coach Maritza Steward, She's

going to supervise Andy during the trial. It's pretty amazing thing to do because it's it's funny, it's what we've been you know, we hope to see and we've always said that that's one of our things that we're proud of that any of our students can go you know, if they worked with us and you know, committed to the program, they learned the ideals at a j and you know, Coach Goss and I, you know, try and teach. So it's student versus student, student versus teacher, husband versus wife.

What more could you possibly want? This is episode eleven of Class Action. First thing I would inquire is why do you want to become a lawyer? Yes? Why do you want to be a lawyer? The idea that I, at twenty three years old, can walk into a courtroom next year and run it front to back better than some of these people that have been practicing for ten twenty years. I'm like, that's insane to me. I like the puzzle. You are given a set of facts and you have to make those facts work with what your

client wants. And it doesn't matter if your client is the state, it doesn't matter if your client is an actual, living human being in front of you. They have something that they want and your job as an attorney is to make sure whatever given situation can work out for them. You do become a different version of yourself, because no one would want that in there every day. I wouldn't have any friends. I've always kind of likened it to My mom was an absolute maniac about our table manners

when we were growing up. But she wanted to make sure that when I went to that nice dinner, I exuded confidence because I knew that I could, I could hang with the you know, with the big kids kind of thing. It's the same way I know I know what I'm doing, just as much as I know I'm picking up the right fork for the right meal kind of thing. That's future lawyers Hayley Nichols, Dylan Ramsdad Spoils and Brooke Bomb Gardner and two seven a summary of

this case. In twenty nineteen, the San Antonio Police were called to a scene at four am on the west side of town, not far from the St. Mary's campus. The complaint was coded as a disturbance neighbor gun involved. For privacy, we're going to remove the names of the persons in this case. Is he the one Yarlet's calling on dy And? When Officer Garcia arrived on the scene, she found a crowd gathered around victim who was lying on the ground. Half in some bushes and half on

the sidewalk. Okay, did you just have a seizures? That's what's what's going on. Or the victim we'll call him Boris, was staring into space and had bumps and contusions on his face. Okay, yeah, you may want to spit your tooth out. No, you don't choke on it. And you didn't see any of this, right, sir, I'm sorry you didn't see any of this. Alright. This is Boris's husband. He's also an eye witness, well sort of, but you didn't see anything. I thought him beating him up. Okay,

who's who's them? So I bet the three guys, all three of them, well, I saw all three of them coovery, because it's all happened so fast that I was like freaking out. Okay, all right, so have a good night. Boris came around and told Officer Garcia that his neighbor, a man will call Carlos, was sitting in his car with a bunch of guys playing his stereo at high volume at four o'clock in the morning music top blow. It's completely can make sure that his off our whole neighborhood.

They do every day I understand why. Forest then told Officer Garcia that he approached the car and knocked on the window and the next thing, you know, he didn't punching me. I was letting low and he was continuously punching you do you know? Do you know which one? And w do you want to come talk to me? Lecture the third? This is Carlos's nephew who was in the front passenger seat. So what's going on? What happened all of a sudden? Yes, it's like, I mean, I

didn't think the music is still all. To be honest, we had a fairly low because we at one point he comes up to the chuck bops, okay, and then that's what he pulled the gun. He's like, you needn't turn it, Connor. What's the gun? He was? It was romish kind of gun. I guess he pulled it out from the sign. He's like, you turn the music down now, blah blah blah. Okay, But you didn't really explain how he ended up on the ground and everything. So how

did that? What did that happen? At? How we have so nicely to leave him pushed him, you know, not too hard though, just enough to get him off our property, trying to push him back. Didn't by any chance did did you hit him or anything like that? All right? What about uncle? Right? What about her uncle him or anything like that? All right, we're self defense. But but I'm not going to deny that we didn't. Yes, yes or no. I'm not gonna lie to you, guys. I mean I did that. I didn't assault that ba I

don't want any trouble them. Yeah, fortunately tonight, buddy, it's gonna have to go down like this. But uh, what madis moils is what happens after this and hopefully are never in handcuffs ever again. All Right, I didn't assaulting tool at all? How do I prove like this? Or you're spitting teeth out of his mouth, but look at my hands. If you're spining teeth out of his mouth, my hands would be cut. There's still cuts on my hands.

I'm just saying, yeah, we don't either, buddy. We're just trying to do our job and I don't just trying to have a good time on a Friday. I understand. All right, Just sit tight or I'll turn on the acing for you. I'm sorry. Carlos was ultimately charged with assault with bodily injury. It should be pointed out here that normally a misdemeanor case like this would almost never

make it to trial. But this is America, and if you've been listening to this podcast all along, you know we are all about half the constitutional right to a fair hearing. Facing potential jail time, Carlos bonded out and decided to seek defense counsel, and here he turned to Jason Goss and Jasmine ole Gain to defend him at trial, but this time against her former teammate. I know her responses. I know the way she thinks. You know she knows

the way I think. Like we both have the same little senses, like if we hear certain questions or responses, like we're trained by the same coach, Like both of our senses start like tingling or like okay, this, this is this is this, and like with objections, like I I know she's gonna object to and like what she's feeling and stuff like that. So maybe like not advantage, but like I know her and I think her coach

knows her too. The dynamic between counsel is interesting. Now for some perspective on this whole becoming a lawyer thing. Here's pre Barra. Counterintuitively, my experience has been that prosecutors and defense lawyers are much more cordial and friendly. Some become quite good friends. And part of the reason is there's a lot of stake in a criminal case, and the most professional defense lawyers and prosecutors, they're not taking

it as personally. You know, it's it's not personal. It's business. To quote from the Godfather. Sometimes someone's a jerk, like they're There are jerks in every profession, and there are jerks at trial sometimes, and then you have to be careful not to let your temper get the better of you, and you treat everyone with respect in the court room and certainly in front of the jury, because the don't

know what's gone on behind the scenes. Another peculiar question arises for defense lawyers in criminal cases who may have a long relationship with the prosecutors. They may have been colleagues. You know, people become prosecutors defense lawyers to go back and forth. That's the case with Jason Goss. He was an assistant DA in this very courthouse for ten yours before switching sides, so he's on very familiar ground here.

Back to the case at hand. A six member juries and paneled and Judge Carlo Rodriguez Key is en robed. I think if everyone's first trial could be this difficult and uh, this convoluted um, and they could still get through with everything else after, that's going to seem fairly easy. So it's a great introduction into how tough things can be. And here we are a trial which begs the question, well,

let's start with why do we need trials? Ashley Email is a Texas lawyer who runs the National Trial Competition and apparently she's also an amateur legal historian. So, for those of you who don't know, trials before they were in a courtroom were by duel and if you died, you were the one lying. That's how that was decided. Um. So then we got to trials, and maybe that was a little more fair, maybe not. Maybe it was just one person shouting this is what happened, and a judge

that I believe you. And so then we got rules of evidence, and this is how we sort of make sure that our trial system is working the way that it should. Obviously it is not perfect. I don't think any person would ever try to tell you that the our justice system is perfect, but I think it's the best system we've got for trying to make sure that anybody accused of something has a fair shot for defending themselves with a lawyer who knows how this system works,

I'm not shaking my boots. Can I win? Probably no, Probably not on my first one. If I'll be honest, i'd be. I'd be very shocked, which just sucks, because I do believe this was an assault. I can't it alone, and it'd be it'd be thinking very high with myself to think that I would be able to do this on my first try. When you're working a real trial, it becomes your life for many months, sometimes for a

year or more. From the moment you charge a case, or even from the moment you start investigating a case, there's always a little voice in the back of your head thinking how is this going to play at trial? What am I gonna do at trial? And then when you're actually on trial those two weeks or six weeks or four months or whatever it may be, you I didn't eat, I didn't sleep. I used to lose pounds when I was on trial. I don't have that much to lose. Um it was incredibly stressful and difficult. And

then at the end um cathartic. This is Elijenig, former prosecutor in New York Southern District and a legal analyst at CNN. He knows that when a prosecutor like Andy has handed a brief, she'll have a lot of questions. So two things about about that. First of all, prosecutors rely on what we call an order of proof, and it's basically like not quite a script, but it's just a listing of all your pieces of evidence from exhibit

one through exhibit four teen hundred um. And you learned to use that as an outline and a guide to your case. But I want to say this about evidence. There's a misnomer out there, or misperception that more is better. Oh, a mountain of evidence that phrase right. Oh, Look, they have huge amounts of evidence that can really backfire. It's not about quantity of evidence, it's about quality of evidence. I learned that the hard way. There was really two

different approaches to evidence. We used to say at the Southern District. There was the kitchen sinkers, the people who wanted to throw in everything they had, and then there was the thin two winners, which I became the first mob trial I ever did. I was the junior person of three on the case, and the guys who ran it were kitchen sinkers. And we did this trial that took two months, and we had hundreds and hundreds of exhibits.

We played the jury I think ninety or ninety five different recordings that we had a cooperator who had made and that case ended up going bad. We had a couple of the defendants were acquitted. We had a couple of defendants where the jury hung, so we got to retry those two defendants where the jury long A year or so later, by this point I was leading it. We said, okay, we're cutting out all the fluff. We're going with our strongest evidence. We went from recordings down

to twelve. We got that. Instead of a two month trial, we did it in a week and a half. For two weeks jury came back convicted. Like that. For this trial, it seems like Jason Goss is more of a kitchen sinker. He's dug up all sorts of apparent shenanigans on the part of the d a's office. First off, the nine on one tape was destroyed by the d a's Office, unclear why. In second, the victim, Boris, was previously convicted

on a domestic violence charge involving his husband. That conviction was later overturned and the records were destroyed by the d a's office, which Jason argues is tantamount to a Brady violation, essentially accusing the state of withholding exculpatory evidence from the defense. And for us, we believe that this guy has been railroaded all the way through and we

want the jury to see that at the end. Since I wasn't at the trial, I do hesitate to characterize this as a smoke screen, but I can imagine this is going directly over the heads of the young prosecution team. The one thing that's always looking forward to on the fens is like, this is the kind of stuff I try to get into. When I was a prosecutor, the judge went always protect the defendant and say no, no, no, be kicking. But in this case, you know, I feel

like I'm not you know what I'm getting. You don't keep that damn what the prosecution thinks about you or even the judge. Tony Sarah has seen it all before. He's eighty seven, a West Coast trial legend and stalwart defense attorney. I just finished a murder trial in Janose. It took about three months. Came back satisfactory that I got a trial separate November seventh. It's another attempted murder

on a police officers life. So I do controversial cases, and I um defend people who ordinarily are overlooked or marginalized in the legal system. I've been fighting, you know, racism. I've been fighting what would call over zelvous prosecutions all of my career. So I tell the young lawyers, it's a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as a calling. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.

If you regard it as a job and that you're going to serve the interest mostly of corporations, then you're feeding into the status quo. Uh you say, knocked his team, not to I'm conscious and I'm here just siding that not. The golpening statements are among the most important parts of a trial. It's your first impression on the jury, so you need to begin with credibility. I was really fortunate.

When I was starting out in the office of the Federal Public Defender in l A. This is noted defense attorney Laura Basilon, who runs a law clinic for racial justice in San Francisco. I had a supervisor. He said, those eleven seconds, you'll never get them back. And he also said that a lot of lawyers really don't do opening statement justice. That they stand up and say an opening statement, these are the elements of the offense. These are how I'm going to prove the elements of the offense.

And the jury goes to sleep. But if you stand up and you have one sentence that crystallizes your case, and you're saying it in this passionate way, then all of a sudden, you have twelve pairs of eyes that are focused on you. There is and so I want to talk to you about what actually happened, and what the evidence is going to prove happening, and how the world on September seven nine team turned upside down because the one thing that she did. You've got to take

over the court. You've got to dominate. Your personality has to be the strongest, Your contact with the jury has to be, you know, formidable. Andy gets a shot at doing the first direct examination of a witness for us his husband, right, but true to life, the guy has a hearing problem and the microphones in the courtroom aren't working, and well it's a modern day trial by fire trying to have a bit of hearing problems and just for everyone, wait to see that one. Alright up, can you hear?

Just watch? Sorry, it's a real jury. Um. I think it's similar in a lot of ways, but it's also I mean it's different in a lot of ways. Um. You know, I have to remember little things that I wouldn't have to remember in mock right, Like I'm making out contact with all of them. Are you following me? How do I look to them? One of the hardest things to do, particularly early on, is keep the poker face.

There's nothing more important than the poker face. Jurors are looking at the lawyers at their tables and going back and forth, often from the person on the witness stand to the lawyer at the table, to see if they're reacting poorly something. We don't have a guestion both her and I question him close to him, and we can discuestion the jury and see how kind of like that

idea that you want to right. So a jura might hear a witness say something like, oh, that sounds like it's harmful to the prosecution, and look and see did the prosecution flinch? Are they passing notes because they might not know because they haven't connected all the things together. You know the case better than any juror will ever know the case. Good. Would you again to the members

of the jury, would you introduce yourself? And then to the members of the jury okay, okay, and whole shape speer voice, would you please introduce yourself again to the members of the jury. I tend to have a lot of emotional reactions that show themselves in my face, and so I've had to train myself to to not to not do that. And I think the other thing I've had to do is look less stern, because unfortunately, that kind of expression, particularly in women, is off putting. It's funny.

I've always been told by my supervisors that you need to smile more, Laura, and I'm like, there's nothing to smile about here. This is a very high stakes, very grim situation. The walls are weeping carrying out perfect all right, Would you introduce yourself more time. It's not a smiley faced, cheerleading time. At the same time, I do think there are occasional moments of levity and that it's good to

look like someone who people can in some way relate to. Uh, did you see him at you know, appressively punched the car, was doing anything aggressive that you could see for your porch? Okay? And then you said that you saw him leave right when he left, and do you know what we want just after people? Okay, didn't look like from where you were standing, did it look like he was trying to trust us onto your property. Well, like you're trying to bring me to their home side in their house. Okay,

so we know someone window, that's what you see? After that? What do you see? Ah, I'll do that. I've done many trials in front of fake treat But so it's just kind of it's a weird duality that exists right now. And so I'm you know, I'm not trying to make excuses for myself, and I don't want to ever do that to her, because she's right, I do know better. But at the same time, I'm I'm still learning and I'll continue to be keep learning. So I just taking

everything that's stride. At any point, did you see your husband pull a gun? Did you see a gun at all that night? Extreme me and I I'm talking to gun. I've always been god. You know I've never allowed okay, but you know you're aware that your husband does own a gun. Yeah, Christian, okay, So let me get it right. Turn the music down. Started walking to the dog. They rolled up the window. They started blasting the music. He

finished along with the dog. He brought the dog inside, went back over to them and told him turn the music down. A good defense attorney like Jason Goss, he's going to pick apart a fuzzy head of witness like this while on cross that's what you testify that based on what you saw. There's no reason to call the cops on you based upon what you could see that and you don't want him to go to jail. Your husband, that one. He's obviously he's this group of people is

said he would agree with that. I don't know, there's no question. Obviously they're upset. He said that they're yelling at this ring. I've been confrontational all my life. I have a dear friend that it was in college All American Football for Oklahoma. And when I have done cases with him, and it's as if if he doesn't get the answer he wants, he's gonna walk up and slug

it with his fists. And he would just stand up there like he had a stick in his hand, you know, or some kind of a baseball bat, and he was be slugging this witness. If he didn't tell the truth that, I was going, Oh boy, that's guy's good. I want to be like that. First asked you, she said you didn't see him. Then she said no, I saw nothing. You heard yourself say that, yes, And you also said I was in bed and I heard my dogs running.

That's what you said at the police office. You testified to the jury that you were in your office, but you told the officer you were in bed. Okay, scare him into telling the truth, you know, confront them, shake your finger in their face when you think you're lying. In every single jury trial, there will be something to go after that is untrue coming from the prosecution. Their witnesses frequently are tainted. You know, they have a history.

They have been impeaqued so many times. So what I tell young lawyers, just the most important thing about being a trawler. You gotta know everything. You've got to read every bit of discovery. If your mind isn't good enough to retain in it and try another profession. So you cannot even tell us right now that your memory of something five minutes after it happened was better than your memory of something too and a half Africa of his

ability and all sustaining as events. Thanks for us, well, you said, I'm just feeling I don't know, I'm it's weird.

I'm feeling like my skills were good, but I there's a lot of things to this case, and I think substantively, I think I'm beating feeling a little defeated, um, just because I mean, you really, you know, we we pre trialed our witnesses, you know, and you really never know what they're going to act like on the stand, and you can tell them a million times like this is what you need to do, you know, just yes or no, Just answer my questions yes or no and cross, you know,

and you never know how they're going to react. I mean, and it was and you can now I see the practicality of it that it's like it'll blow up your case. You said, you do not remember seeing the police at all, not at all when seeing yourself on their body ever, seeking the help the refreshmtory about what you said that you know, he walks around this place and throughout the day like all of these little prosecutors were coming into

trial and they weren't coming in to see us. They're coming in and see him because you know how kid he is. So I mean it just, I mean, it's so cool and obviously it would be so much cooler if he wasn't on the other side, can quank you to see my own work, just to say your day? Okay, um, I'm saying okay, and how are we gonna do that? A little little later on in the day, patrol Officer Garcia is called to the stand. In their questioning prosecutors

Andy and Cassidy are courteous and respectful of law enforcement. Okay, so when you were violency, he had give us free description of what was going on. Yes, So once I went unseen, basically I saw a small crowd of people over a male on the ground. Um. So obviously as an officer and wind intent. They wrap up Officer Garcia's testimony pretty quickly, but then Jason Goss comes back to his objection about the immissibility of Boris's criminal background and

his husband's history of lying to the police. Officer Garcia steps down from the stand. The jury is excused and Gass and the judge argued case law and legal precedent for an hour. People idea that this witnesses. The VAS office believed that this witness did not solve and didn't call this person as a witness, and they drone on and on and on, and then the day is done.

Round one goes to the defense. Um, we baked out of the courtroom and I was like, I feel like you ever feel like you've been in a boxing match with the person that taught you how to box? It's like not, yeah, I mean it's a lot. You know, you want to decompress and you're like, okay, but there's still a really long way to go in this trial, which is crazy because it's a missing mirror. I don't

know it's a missed me now, but it is. You know, I really don't know what I envisioned myself as in being a lawyer, because with my last two summers of working, it's just you're constantly changing on how you approach things, and so I don't really think I don't know who I am as a lawyer for maybe ten years into practice. It takes ten years to be comfortable doing what you're doing.

But I would like to be my goal of what i'd like to be an a lawyer, someone who is um very patient, because it does take a lot of patients and time to work with people. In general, I think, no matter what career you go into, and I would like to base someone who has answers. I want to be a lawyer where someone's comfortable saying, we know we can go to Bailey. She's going to solve whatever issue

I have. So that's that's my goal. So what's happening now in DA's offices, especially Brooklyn, is it's not just what happens with a perpetrator in a case is not solely dependent on the charges they're facing or the victims preference in what happens. If we also have to take into account what will help the defendant, how can we prevent this from happening again? What will do justice for the defendant the victim while keeping public safety in mind.

I do work for prisoners legal Services as my externship. It'll be going on three semesters now, and my clients have committed very egregious crimes there So, in a sense, you know, I am, I am making the choice to advocate for someone who has committed murder, who has committed rape, and who has made the choice to do something consciously that is quite a terrible offense. But in that case,

their constitutional rights have still been violated. And so I do believe that although this person has made a decision, that doesn't negate the government's responsibility to grant them their constitutional rights. That was Bailey more It, Phoebe Medicare and Ellie Sands. The next day, Officer Garcia has to wait another hour while the defense continues to argue about the old conviction. The judge has had enough and resolves the

issue and puts it on the record for any future appeal. Okayna. Finally, Officer Garcia is recalled to the stand for her cross examination, and she'll sit in that witness chair for the next four hours while her every move and motivation will be picked apart by Jason Goss. I understand, I watch. What we're really trying to point out is there's a difference between what I hear what actually had and you have training about how to deal with people who have done?

Have you been when you went to the police, had me Otherwise? What would you agree with your investigation solely focused on, maybe owing to their inexperience or simple exhaustion. The prosecution had very few objections. I think most people would agree with me that you don't back down from a case. If I if when you're a prosecutor, I would think when I'm a prosecutor that I have a case that I really believe in and that I want

to bring to trial. Um, I don't think i'd back down just because I you know, counsels big and scary and so good, right, which is why you know, we were like, wow, this is weird, but it's really cool seenior coach, Like he really is such an icon for us because his presence, the way he gets things out. I don't know, I'm just really happy to be here and just everything he's been saying, it's like my heart, like little Brady thing. I was like, heart, heart, Heart,

Is there one good words? Farmer? When we introduce yourself remembers the drum. I wanted the jury to get to know you little bit. So where do you live? How long have you lived there? Um? Fifty years except for a couple of years when I went off to the college. On day three, Jasmine, who had been sitting quietly taking notes and strategizing with Jason, she gets her chance to do a short direct of a key witness for the defense. Have you ever had a problem with the playing any

music since I moved in? Have you been able to interact with them? Yes? Have you been able to see their interactions with other neibors? Have you been able to see them interact with each other? Yes? In these five years? Do you have enough experience to be able to form an opinion on so? Do you have an opinion on the character for violence? I believe he's problems of violence.

Do you have an opinion on character for untruthfulness? I don't believe him to be trustworthy Because we have some Yes, And just like that, the case for the prosecution is on the rocks and Jason Goss is on deck. Yesterday, Um, we're having a lot of technical issues. I was really late and I told coach Coach I could finish this if you want to go work on your clothes, and he said no, I don't have to work on anything. I was like, I hate myself. I would I tell him.

But you guys here they're bourboning. Proved is beyond the reasonable doubt. And it's not just beyond the reasonable doubt that assault caused, or or hid or push or shove or rolled in the bushes, because you can believe all of that beyond the reasonable down. But they still have to prove to you beyond the reasonable doubt that it's not self defense. And remember this is not serious. Bodily injury is bodily injury. They are entitled to do bodily

injury that is forced. The judges ready the law. They're entitled to use force to prevent trespass, entitled to punch somebody in the face. They're entitled to throw them on the ground. They're entitled to push them. They're entitled to do whatever. It's safe to say that Andy was tapping her feet the whole time, just itching to get in there, and finally she gets her big chance to do a closing. I'm gonna tell you that the world didn't flipped on

that day for this one. I just didn't. The world kept turning just like it always does, right, side up. The way always has the way it always well. See people fight. They knock each other out. I know you know this. And sometimes they have good reason. Sometimes they have reason. Sometimes they have no reason at all. Sometimes people knock each other out getting fights just because they can't because they're the bigger guy. Sum made in your small excided about the way you looked at me and

like we you spoke to me. I didn't write that you came over here at four in the morning and told me to turn the music down. I can do whatever I want. She even pulls out the old St. Mary's chestnut, the salute to the American flag. It's like when you look behind the judge at that flag that's resting, unfoladable, and you can't see all the stars and you can't see all the stripes, you still know, right beyond reasonable doubt,

you know what that is. You know that that's flat in the United States of America, or the laws that we have are meant to keep people safe, or the laws that we have we're meant to keep our community safe. Were the laws that we have tried tried their best never to condone. Pilots always try to say violence is not the answer. You, the jury, have the power to

the side on the facts of this case. You the jury, and the power to decide whether you're going to allow the Vilens to be the answer and her commannity, whether it's okay if you don't like custone talks to you, if you don't like how they look at you. But you cannot go. She fought, and you cannot go all because he can find the defendant. She fought, and she fought,

and she fought. And I knew this day would come where I would see her in trial one day, and I didn't know fresh off of that last loss, which I know she took a lot, really hard because she didn't get to get in the game. And I told her that something big is going to happen soon. And I don't know if she ever would realize how how big this is because she's just being antie. It all came together, It culminated all together, everything that we've practiced, played,

prayed everything for for her. I saw it in that moment, and seeing her argue against him and not back down, it makes me feel so proud. I'm not her mother, I'm not her sister, but I just I feel like she's family, and just like when even when I saw Jasmine asking questions, like you just see these babies and they come through and you're just like, you know, I wonder you know, I know they're good people, and I just I hope they continue on and work on their skills.

And she did that. I mean, she she killed it. So I mean, I just I don't know. It was an amazing feeling and I just couldn't have them that smile. Tiarra cried, yes, alright, well you can jury find the defendent. Jo alright, jury service than wow, wow trial every artist trial I've ever done, the most law I've ever seen, h so, the best work I've ever seen. UM, So I hope you can appreciate what you saw here today.

The verdict was not guilty. Um. The jury did come back pretty quick, so I think I don't know anything that my first time, but I was like, can that be good um for the state at least, like I said, like, justices, whatever an impartial durve of your peers says, it is um,

And I think that's the beauty of it. And I think I just feel really grateful that I've gotten this training that allows you to see both sides of the coin and allows you to see that just like there can be bad people on both sides, there can be really great people on both sides, um, and there can be people that are you know, fighting for the community, and hey, like, are we going to say that this

is right? Like are we going to just like go around letting people just punch each other just you know, because you can because you're mad or even if you have a reason, all right, you relax regardless. I think that that is what justices. And you know, I mean this time it wasn't it. This time they said it was okay. Um, But that's the beauty of it. So you know, onto the next I got kind of choked up, like I wanted to cry, but I was just so happy.

Like you heard, you know, the client's wife like gas and started crying and you could I could see him physically start getting emotional. And but it was like such a joy because it wasn't injustice to him. And he's for two years he's had to be reporting to somebody when he didn't do anything wrong, and it's just now he can just walk out those doors and you know, he can go to fiesta, he can do this and he doesn't have to live like that anymore. And so it was I was so happy. I like prayed after.

I was like, thank god that happened. And obviously coach that closing was incredible, So it was really awesome. I was really happy. The law is about rules. I believe in rules, but more important than rules, it is something that is based on principles and values, and those are values of equal justice and fairness of process and everything

about that. It's fascinating to you know. I began a little bit the study of law when I was in middle school and I read Inherit the Wind, which is about the Scopes trial right the ability of a teacher to teach about evolution in a school in Tennessee. And I love the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and all the mechanisms that you use not only to get justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth comes out. And I've always thought of it

as a noble pursuit. I say this to commencement audiences all the time. There's a lot of power in a legal degree. You know, individuals have power generally, they have their voice, they can protest, they can run for office, there's lots of things you can do, but I think there has been an appreciation as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack from a lot of different places

over the last number of years. That's not a bad thing to have a law degree and have the privilege of access to a court to redress grievances and equalize the playing field for people who don't have access to justice. I guess it's good for the learning curve part aspect of it, right, Like, you know, we're learning a lot, but it's really hard to balance full time student this week, full time lawyer also, and it's really I think we just we wear a lot of hats and it's hard.

Do you wear a white hat though I'm the only one that wears away at um, we're actually the ones that were the right h house. Shut up. I literally my caption for you when you said that, Yeah, my caption from bart don't think I forgot my caption from my embarrass's picture is my white hat is bigger than your white hat. Like if it's going to be someone, yeah, like I wanted to be meet. Andy and Jasmine graduated law school and have been studying for the bar exam

all summer long. Andy is now working for the d a's office, and Jasmine continues to work with Jason Goss, who knows they will likely face off again at trial in the future. The St. Mary's team wrapped up its season. It wasn't all disappointing one of A J's teams. One first place that the national trial competition. I don't care where they are today. I want to know where they are two years from now when they leave. And I

get so much satisfaction when they graduate. When I'm sitting there at graduation, I'm looking up at the stage and I see them walk across. I remember the person that walked in the first time. How's everybody done? Who did not see the video on cross examination? Right, Raven? You want to come up here and cross examine Addie, because if I can make that connection with you today, I can make you a lawyer tomorrow and then you're gonna

go out and you're gonna do good. From chapter one case analysis, you've made some connection to how that works with the rest of the case. Next on class action for the first time, and it's history. The Diller team goes to the National Championship. Welcome Afternoon, every one How special is it to all be together again? Welcome to nationals Okay, I'm gonna do it again. Welcome to the in person National Championship in Port Room A representing the state.

The Yellow Jackets of Georgia Tech Team one thousand one. Hi, I'm Survey. I'm from Georgia Tech. Gro Over there Go Jackets. The Blue Devils of Dillard University Team twelve sixteen. Hello, I'm Renee than Mean and my name is Amya Ronsic. I'm the captain of the Dillard University Mocktole team in New Orleans. And as we stay in New Orleans, le bancon relate. Let the good times roll? How are you are? Your rolling way? What? He? That's next? Time? On Class Action.

Last Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument. Created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan, Kristen Cabrera, Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and mixing by Evan Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had additional field production

by Kristen Cabrera. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.