Ep1: Boot Camp for Lawyers

so let's do what we gotta do. The whole goal after this is when you go into the courtroom, there's somebody depending on you to advocate for them, so let's learn it now because their life could be on their line, their finances could be on their line, their family could be on the line. This is fun, this is great, but we have to look up for our clients who we don't even know who there are, but they're waiting for us. They're waiting words. Our first team with six

lands with a CS at sixteen and a half. Opedia plus thirty nine tells sixteen you're listening to the sounds of the next generation of American lawyers. This is Class Action, a year long journey inside the hyper competitive world of law school, mock trial We found three schools with amazing stories to tell, starting with St. Mary's University in San Antonio, where we follow one team on their dramatic trip to

the top. We got beat up, bad, bad, until the point where like we're like, oh, it can't get any worse, until it did, and then it did again, and then we're just like, you know what, let's do this, like we know what we need to fix. We got this, like, let's believe in ourselves. And it's been good. The University of South Dakota, where a new coach is turning around a program with students who are guilty of being too nice in the courtroom, the reports of this fighter that

there was blood everywhere, right, that everybody was bleeding. Why isn't there blood in the front passenger seat, Why isn't the victims blood other places in the car? And from deep in the heart of Brooklyn and all female team from Brooklyn Law fights, the Ivy League champions, just how we got them that so many stay and we just all like tackled her to the ground and we're crying and screaming and so happy. And to get an idea of the future of mock trial, we meet students from

the undergraduate pre law program at Dillard University. It's a team that's been forced to come together after Hurricane Ida lays waste to their campus. This sport will humble you so quick in the best way possible. It will really like let you know you need to buckle down and do what you have to do. It will really show you like your potential, and it will also show you the places that you lag. I'm Katie Fang. This is class action. Some people say jury trials they're going away,

and there's plenty of evidence to support that. Personally, I think it's more than a shame. I think it's a crisis, a crisis for our democracy because if you've ever had to go to trial and you've had a lousy trial lawyer, it's a real crisis for you. But there may be hope on the horizon. Ever since I was kid, I wanted to be a lawyer. Just always wanted to do that, and it was kind of like law or nothing. I'm sure it could be good at something else, but I

just this is my heart. I would say what appeals to me is the overarching justice system and the fact that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but in society. That is not the case in society. Is if you see a news report that so and so was involved in a robbery, they did it. They did the robbery, and I think that's unfair. Okay, here's one paragraph I can read. That same day, I signed up for something called mock trial, thinking I would learn a few things

about speaking effectively. I began sitting in the backup practices and watching the student lawyers argue their cases. My coaches didn't let that fly for too long. They insisted I lead strategy discussions and present every side of the case until I knew the facts of the story like it were my own. I have brown skin, I am Indian. I am not well represented in a courtroom setting. Typically,

I'm not who you see on a courtroom drama. For example, the other day I was talking to my friend and I was like, yeah, you know, I did this moot court thing, and he said, oh, like in those courtroom dramas, like, do you watch them for inspiration? And I honestly was. I said no, because those people don't look like me. They don't have my style. They're white males generally, and

for the most part, like I'm building this myself. Whatever comes out um in a courtroom is because I built that persona Every occupation is important in its own way, but I feel like in this type, especially criminal law, you're with somebody at the worst time of their life. Every inch of my body felt uncomfortable, to the point where I felt like quitting. But something about the sport made me keep coming back. I trained my mind in my tongue so substantially that the courtroom became the place

where I felt the most comfortable. I learned that being a litigator isn't about the objections you make or how smart you sound. It's about your body language, the way your voice bends, and the words you use. Most importantly, it's about the way you connect with people and the truth you're able to uncover. It's about the stories you tell.

This is episode one boot Camp for Lawyers. You're all ready for me Interestacing City a j don't stand up, stand up, stand up, stand up, pound on the table, cut it down the table, Oh my god, oh yeah, who. I'm the dean of advocacy, so, believe it or not, we already did some advocacy here today. None of you wanted to stand up on world would and pound on the table, But I got you to do that. That, to me is the world of advocacy, getting people to do something that they don't want to do on their own.

For me, it's in the courtroom. I want the judge to do what I want the judge to do. I want the jury to do what I want the jury to do. And I need to train you to do what I do. That's my world. Close your eyes for a second. Last night, you thought about your first day in law school. There was a picture in your head. How many of you imagined yourself in front of a jury or a judge making an argument. It's okay to dream, and here we're gonna help you fulfill that dream, for

each and every one of you that want it. Some of you are here because something happened in your life. Some of you have been wronged or a family member has been wronged. Some of you have been victims, and that's why you're here, because you want to make a difference. It's just a small number of people that can control our liberty to make sure that it is maintained. You have a unique responsibility. We're doing really important stuff here and I need you to keep going. The National Trial Team.

M we practice going to trial as a member of the National Trial Team. Before you graduate, you will have no less than seventy trials under your belt, practicing in front of judges and law practitioners. I invite you to be a member of the National Trial Your success depends on each other. Put your arm around each other, take care of each other, and good luck and muscle and coming one else did breakfast? I was gonna say, you

get some breakfast tacos. St. Mary's University sits on a flat piece of land in the west side of San Antonio. So give you a lay of the land. Here. Rabba is the original law school. Now it's just offices. St. Mary's is the first Catholic university in Texas, founded by the brothers of the Society of Mary in eighteen fifty two. That's the law school library. That's the administration building. This is the main classroom building, just seven years after Texas

became a state. So you have the rest of the university. But we're right here in our own little corner. When you take a look around, what's gonna set us apart when you go to these other schools. Our student population has a huge Hispanic Latino population. We're probably going to be the largest populated school for Latino law students, which is really important to us that we we had that opportunity that other schools don't happen. It's fantastic, Lamosambisa Pole.

It hasn't meet that then, than thank you, mamma, But I did my I just liked. So. Our school has an oath that every student takes when they first come in. You you take a bunch of oaths as a lawyer, so we figured we might as well let's start one here. The things that the students are pledging to honesty, morality, integrity, trustworthiness, honor. These are the things that I expect and we demand from all of our students. But we want them to make that commitment from their first day on campus and

saying this pledge does just that. Diligent always. So I'm looking at that pledge. I have it on a bulletin board above my desk. I, Patricia Roberts, do solemnly pledge that I will engage in the diligent study of law, always acting in an honest, moral and professional manner. I will be guided by the spirit of hospitality, collaboration, mutual support, and scholarship, which are the ideals of a Marriness university. And I will be trustworthy, honorable, and professional in all

aspects of my life. Trustworthy all. So do you go by a J Belido de lu? Are you just a J Belido? Like? What's no? No, never believe o never de luna never Luna never day believe it or not. Some people use that the last name is Beth Luna. It's a double l. So you had the right accent. No, and in California, Okay. As soon as I heard about this particular podcast, I log geeked out. Trial ad was

a big part of my law school experience. It was instrumental in leading me to not go to big law and to go to the grind of big law and I went to be a prosecutor. I attribute that love and that passion for trial and advocacy like true trial advocacy because of the mock trials and the litigation skills program. So so yes, so you and I are like minded when it comes to this. There is this old saying I'm gonna butcher it, but I do like to live

by this kind of old adage. It was a Judy Garland quote about you know, the best thing is to basically be yourself. That being said, though, if you could build the perfect trial team students trial team student member, what would that trial team member be? I never thought about that, to be honest, And I think the reason why I've never thought about that is because I truly believe that I am not trying to make somebody into something.

More So, what I want is I want to meet the students where they are and to help build their skills and their abilities so that they can be the best lawyer they can possibly be. Earning a coveted spot on the trial team at St. Mary's is not automatic. Hey, three else, come here, three Else. Tryouts are held in the spring for second and third year law students only, and just to get this out of the way, second year law students they're called two Ells. Third year students

they're known as three l's. Okay, remember how nervous you guys were. This is like their passage into here. We're here to help them, do not give them advanced lessons. There are two people here that are here on a

look see the first one. In early August, the two L's and roll in a trial advocacy class top by a j and after five o'clock they braved the heat for an intensive one week boot camp where they're going to be drilled on everything from how to stand, where to stand, how to talk, when to shut up, and all of the bedrock procedures operating inside of a courtroom. Hey, hey, what are you doing here? I'm healthy? Oh good team player?

Look at you? Always a team player. I grew up playing team I got in trouble for stalking too long and told me to shut up. Happy you think we get today? Emily Parker is one of a handful of three l's who are earning extra credit for coaching at

the boot camp. Our boot camp which is basically a crash course on evidence, on the trial procedure, cross examinations, and just getting comfortable with learning at a fast pace, but also just the very basic rules for how a trial operates and what what you need to know and the nuts and bolts. So then when they start their Trial Advocacy Skills class in the fall, they'll be they'll be ready to go. Hey, welcome to the first day.

Here's what I want you to do. Unless you're Andy, Emily or Jess, I'll want you to go down there I'm gonna go address them, and I want you to work with them. And as soon as you believe somebody is ready for the test, they could come up to me or dead. We're gonna be at the top of the steps, they'll be at the bottom of the steps. They'll recite, they'll be allowed in. If they don't pass, we're gonna send them back. You guys need to grab them and work with them, have them recited for you again.

All right, let's go address them and get them to work. My name is Abby. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but when he said boot Campbell, I was imagining, I mean in the Texas weather, like out in the gass doing laps and like yelling the rules of evidence, so anything, it was like better than that, Hi, Hi

might lencinas. I was a bit intimidated, um, but definitely just from you know, tryouts, there was still that level of you know, scariness, not really knowing you know, what his personality was, how he was going to approach this whole thing. A couple of minutes. It's good to work. It's Jared's birthday. To day, Oh my god, Jared's birthday. Howld are you these twenty three. Happy birthday, that's awesome. Did you bring cake? I didn't know. I was hoping

you would. I believe that you have to bring cake when hit your birthday, chocolate with chocolate frosting. To the rules. All right, get to work. SONA medslaren a dec lauren is a person who makes a statement and here's say. Um is a statement that the declarent makes while not testifying in the current trial or hearing um, and the party offers it into evidence for the truth of the matter. Asserted the rule number four hearsay, Yes, what's the real number?

Eight one? It's the real number p four oh one. I'm sorry, that's right, that's fine, that you're fine through it. So, in order to make phase two of the team, they had to memorize I don't know, like twelve rules of evidence. They were given two hours to write down these rules word for word. They were graded. You have to get or better on the test in order to stay on the team. So they've already memorized them for writing. Well, now they have to come in and give it to

me verbally. What is the definition of relevance? Evidence is relevant if a has any tendency to make a fact more or less probable than it would be without the evidence, and be the fact type of consequence and determined to actions. I love it. What is the definition of here saying? Here saying is a statement other than one made by the declarant while testifying at the trial or hearing offered an evidence to prove the truth of the matter? Is sort of okay, good job. What is the definition of

relevance evidence as relevant if it has any Why? For those people that are listening and wondering and scratching their head. There's dozens of rules of evidence in the Federal Rules of Evidence, that's right. Why those specifically? And if I'm able to recite it back to you? Why is that some type of threshold success for me to be able to get my foot on the door to even be considered to be on the St. Mary's team. It's a

little bit of effort to memorize that. So they're looking up at you and they have to recite these two rules to walk past me, to come up the stairs and walk past me. So there's an elevation that happens. Right, there's a feeling inside. It's part psychological, it's there's a whole lot of reasons for it, but it's all part of that process of if you don't care, if you're not willing to do just this little bit, I don't have time for you. Okay, stay your name for the record.

It's cool, do alright, Cole. What is the definition of hearsay? Hearsay? Hear say a statement other than one made by the declaring while testifying at the trial hearing offered nevidence for the truth for the matter of serv This is my first year on the trial team. I did mootcourt prior to this, So this kind of activity it's very difficult to just really jump into because you've got to know a lot of basic tenants of law that we've kind

of only just touched on. Three years ago. I was in your English class and um, I gotta be um. I was involved in a car accident today. Is my English class be relevant? It is not. Why not, because it has no bearing on the practic hand or the action, which is a car exact Welcome to boardicle. Okay, find a second person. It looks like Jasmine is available. Say your name for the record. My name is Karen Crawford. All right, Miss Crawford. You and I are walking down

the street. We just had a cup of coffee. All of a sudden we hear crash and someone yells out, holy cow, that guy went through a red light. Is that here saying the person who said it, no, because he saw it with the di Is it an out of court statement? It's out of court. Is it being offered for the truth? Not that moment? Go back, go back, go back. Oh my god, that okay, Karen, let's do it. So many trips up? Yeah? How did they do? As you go through this process, I really want you to

think about it this way. The rules of evidence are not to keep evidence out. The rules of evidence are to guide you on how you bring evidence in. It tells you how to get it in. If you look at it that way, it becomes a lot easier than it's this barrier. It's not a barrier. It's a welcoming that we're gonna have a really, really busy week. We're gonna be out here for most of it. I brought a cooler, Andy brought the ice. Drink often drink a lot,

stay hydrated. We should hit a hunter and two tomorrow. Offered in evidence to prove the truth of the matter of certain is the statement made out of court. Yes, the statement is made out of courts on the street. So then that statement is because it is being offered to prove the truth of the matter started. So therefore it is saying thank you. Come on in? Is that everybody? That man? Awesome? All right? Come on, everybody, let's get to work. Y'all made it. That was really easy? When't it?

When not easy? Give yourselves a block. Come on. Now you know the definitions. Now you need to learn how to use them. Our first assignment is to get to know each other. Team up with somebody. No one's gonna ask a single question. When I say ones, go for three minutes without stopping. I need you to tell a story about yourself to the other person. The person may not ask you a single question. You will just tell

the story about you. I hope to god you came here with a piece of paper and a pencil, because while the other person is talking, you're taking notes, and you may not stop talking until I say stop. Let's get this table combined with this table, and that table combined with that table. You need to throw over here. Today I'm going to tell you a story about how my house burned down. True story from when I was seven. One night I went to sleep. It was a Sunday night.

We didn't have school the next day, so my older brother was awake and he awoke to a bank glass crashing everywhere. I used to teach at Maryland. I used to do this when I was a Maryland and I know that at Maryland, I would teach something one time and I was done with it. It was over. I didn't have to do it again. That's not where I am. And I learned in addition to that, like whatever we say could really get us in jail, Like it didn't matter what we were saying. I mean, I'm not knocking

my kids. I'm just saying that they need a different teacher. They need me to be a different teacher. Thirty seconds later, run way back, so I try to take off. I'm not getting kids that even know what trial advocacy is, or some of them may have had an experience in high school, but they weren't on a national champion high school team. Okay, stop talking, stop laughing, not just kidding, leave everything behind. Just bring your chair and put him

in this box. So when you come up here, I want you to say your name and the person you're introducing and tell us about that person. I'll take volunteers. So yeah, I love that. Let's get it over with who you are, who you're introducing, tell us your story. Can someone take notes? Take notes and these stories? So Hi, my name is Maria Ansinas and this was my partner, Raven Benya, and she told me the story of why law school, which I'm sure all of us have been

asked before. So she went ahead and started off with how she was concerned for people. She had a concern in her heart for people specifically. I just moved here for law school, so it was a little rough my first year. I won't lie moving. I've never lived away from home, away from family, so I have no lawyers in the family. Um, but I was a legal secretary and a paralegal prior to coming to law school. Law school was always the plan, just kind of took a

little while to get in there. So she went ahead and started to do a lot of activist work. She became an activist, but she quickly learned that the FBI would get involved in a lot of things, and she learned the whole culture of security and how any little thing that she said or her friends said ultimately was tracked and ultimately could lead to a lot of I didn't want to be the behind the scenes person. Everything that staff does is so important, but I wanted to

be the advocate in the courtroom. And I was just through watching those other advocates that I was just like, Yep, that's that's what I need to do. My specific interest is in Special Victims Unit, sex crimes, crimes against children, domestic violence. That's where I really found a passion for helping the victims people. And even though her road took different directions, law school was always kind of the second option, and that's where she's at now. There's a lot of

power in a legal degree. I asked my good friend pre Barrara, the former U S Attorney for the legendary Southern District of New York, to join us on this journey. Individuals have power generally, they have their voice, they can protest, they can run for office. There's lots of things you can do. But I think there has been an appreciation as our democracy, in my view, has been under attack from a lot of different places over the last number

of years. That's not a bad thing to have a law degree and have the which of access to a court to redress grievances and equalize the playing field for people who don't have access to justice. Is that six o'clock? Yeah, So let's everyone take a moment to reflect. As a St. Mary's bells ring? How long do they go? The students pack up and head for their cars. A J. Sits down at an old picnic table with a couple of coaches, deb Unich and Misty death Ridge, the two elves in

their presentations. Was there anyone there that like stood out to you the very first one? It's hard to go first, but she kind of knocked it out of the park. It was very animated. Her speech was animated and had emotion. It had tone and variants. It was good. It was it was organized, It made sense. We have several that need to We're gonna have to be have them sit on their hands. We have a lot of hand movement. Are you shocked at the deer in the headlights? Look

with about two thirds of them a little? I don't remember that from last year. My concern is that is is that a COVID thing? We're back in person meeting people in person again. Is it a hold over from having done everything last year on zoom and that type of their first time live. This class, they've never been live. It's a really good that's a really good observation. So we should ease them in a little bit rather than hitting them hard. I'll say about doing them hard tomorrow.

But no, you're gonna be easy on them. No, a J doesn't do either, but maybe easy for a J. To get the bigger picture of the mock trial scene, I reached out to Joe Lester. When Joe is not overseeing the trial ad program at American University, he runs the go to website called Trial Team Central. Trial Team Central. We keep track of all the law school trial competitions, the results. We've kind of grown. It was first just who won, and now it's you know who one and

who's playing. And we also talked with Joe's colleague, Adam schlawhead from Fordam University. Adams created this ranking system to measure the top mock trial programs across the country. Do you get three points if you win a competition, two points if you come in second, and one point if you make the semifinals. So then I just started allocating points and counting them up. So Adam and Joe. I'm the new kid on the block, but I have had the most amazing ride getting to know these coaches and

some of the competitors. So I have met some pretty spectacular kids. They have reaffirmed my belief that the children are going to save the world because they are so smart and so self aware. And I would like to thank having been a trial ad geek myself in law school that being a part of these teams has been a huge part of it. Yeah. You know, one of the other critiques that we hear, especially from people who aren't trialers, is that there are fewer and fewer trials

happening in the country. The journy trial is vanishing. So why is this so important? And I kind of think that because the jury trial is becoming more rare, that makes it more important that the students get the training in law school because the days of the young lawyer trying a hundred cases before their thirty it doesn't happen, right, It just does not happen, especially at big firms and

you know, high stakes litigation. I do uh some training for law firms, and these are folks who have been at the law firm for many many many, many years, and they've never even been close to a trial. If you ever watch a baseball game and you watch someone throw the ball from third base to first base, most people can't even throw a ball that far. It's it's a long way, and they do it like it's no big deal. And I think they think of trial work in sort of the practice of law is something that's

just easy and no big deal. And that's where the trial training that we give gives these students such a leg up on their competition on their classmates, because it is not something you can just walk in and do. It is not monkey see monkey do. I can mimic it and I can take care of it. It takes a lot of training and understanding to know exactly what you're doing and how to do it, or you'll never be able to hit a gird ball. So they need this kind of training because they don't have the luxury

of learning on the backs of their clients. Because at the end of the day, trials are still happening, even if it's to a lesser degree, they are still happening. And that's the cloud looming over all litigation. And if if you take away that ability, then you're really losing a major tactical advantage. So you preface what it is that you're trying to do your market You show it, you asked to approach, they validate its existence. You publish. That's kind of the gist of the way this works.

Now you all do have a document. Let's be frank, right, AJ you you want to create a St. Mary's Law and national team that's going to be competitively good, and you talk about that pressure cooker of these students. They've got their academic rigor and the academic demands. I think it's really relevant because a lot of criticism about law school has been what's the real world practical benefit of

going to law school? Like what are you learning in the classroom versus maybe being on one of these trial teams. This competitive to get on the team, I presume it's competitive to stay on the team. It's very competitive to get on the team. It's very competitive to stay on the team. The pressure is high when you get on the team, and a lot of people don't make it. They withdraw on their own or they withdraw through after a conversation. My number one goal is not to win championships.

It is not don't get me wrong, I really love winning. I'm very competitive. If we were to break out a checkerboard right now, I'm going to play and play and play and play until I figure out how to beat you. I like that You're already going in knowing that I'm beating you at the beginning. There's there's no doubt about that. But you will get angry at me because I will make you keep going until I win, until I figure

out what you're doing. And I am not so I want to impart that competitive spirit on my students, but it is not not my goal. I grew up really really poor, Katie. I mean really poor. I had parents who left Cuba to come here to this country. They left on a boat, on one of the freedom boats, like many other Cubans that came to this country fleeing a communist Cuba Fidel Castro rule, and they came here

with nothing close on their backs. You don't know it by listening to me, because you don't hear me as a Latino. Oh but I heard it right there, Latino. I have seen that's how some people are treated versus other people. And I've been poor as an adult, and I've worked through it until I got to this stage in my life where I'm not poor. I'm not rich, but I'm not poor. What I know is this is that there are a lot of people out there who

are not getting the representation that they need. And I see day in and day out how people do not represent people correctly. They asked dumb questions. They ask questions that forward or advanced the theory of the case for the other side rather than their side. I mean, I've come from a town of about three thousand people. Um, everything I've done in my life, people say, well, where is that from. I had somebody tell me this week that I sound like cornbread. Whatever they mean, I don't know.

I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing, But I mean that's been my mentality my whole life. My dad's not a lawyer or a doctor. My dad a farmer. And the thing is for me, I'm out to prove to the world that I can do and I'm going to do it. Hi. My name is Karen Fraser Craffer, and the first day was quite intimidating, very intimidating. Has studied those things for weeks and it seems like it just blanked out Hello and Maria hymis.

So the first day, I think we were all like maybe texting each other, a bunch of us like what's gonna happen, what's going on? And we didn't know what to expect, honestly, And I remember telling some of our friends I feel like throwing up, like I don't know,

like I'm so nervous. And we get here and it's like kind of a relief once the first day is over, because we're like, Okay, it's gonna be hard, but we can do this a little over a thousand miles due north, another trial team, the University of South Dakota, is lugging their law books back to campus. Good morning, good morning, I was doing this morning. We're doing a series of quorn tonight. Open next emails are great way to communicate

when we're not going to be played. Uh, the knowledge is not there front to the email at that shirts MS Peter and if that I got, we do it. Come on, Oh listen to dream how you doing start? So these are the things that we're going to cover tonight, things that you need to know about law school, mock trial. We're gonna talk briefly through preliminary matters, which is the first thing that you're going to say when you're doing one of these competitions. We're gonna talk about the use

of evidence at the competition. What you need to know and what the people on this side of the room already now. In six weeks, we take a fact pattern that would normally take two to three years to come to aisle, and we take to trial and they're intense. Uh. Some of our fact patterns were as long as two hundred pages last year. Some of them were as short as sixty five. The thing that you need to know most of all, you guys are engaged in a highly

competitive law school sport. We have gotten to the point through the work of the people who have been on trial team before you, since I have been here, where we are now regularly getting invited and accepted to top tier competitions. We are regularly competing against top twenty advocacy schools. I don't care that their top twenty advocacy schools. They are not any better than any of you. They are

not any smarter than any of you. They don't have any advantage over any of you, other than the fact that they have a pre existing template. We're making all of that here together because we're building our team together. We're currently ranked number ninety in the country for trial advocacy. That means we are in the top half already. Our goal is to increase that ranking. How do we do

that by showing up and showing out at competitions. Right now, we're taking over with ethical zealous trial advocacy, and we're showing them that it doesn't matter what part of the country that you're from or how much money you've spent on all of your equipment. We're coming for you and it's not gonna be fun for you when that happens. When you walk into that zoom room when you log in. I don't care if you're going against Baylor. I don't care if you're going against Temple. I don't care what

school it is that you're competing against. It's four other law students. You have every potential to beat them, just as much as they have the potential to beat you. It's just a question of who's going to do the work at the end of the day, guys, that's really all there is to it. So I come to you at the end of my one l year. I I hear the siren song of working with coach Laura Rose

being on this amazing team. Walk me through what I should expect as that first semester too, well, in those beginning days of that semester with you, what's that gonna look like for me? The first thing that's gonna happen is you're gonna be absolutely terrified because we're gonna sit you down at boot camp and we're gonna tell you just how this goes. And in the course of that, you're going to have this moment of oh my gosh,

can I actually do this? And law school on top of it, it's like drinking water through a fire hose on extra pressure. When you join trial team on top of law school, we already know that that law school is drinking through a fire hose. Now let's take it up to eleven by adding trial team on top of it. So you're going to get a faster and more intense evidence education than what's going on. Questions about cross right now, Yes,

it's something that I learned in trial tech. I think it's important to focus on the negative space that's there about what they didn't do versus what they did wrong, and that's going to be particularly important when we talk about this this fake environment of the trial team competition, right, because you're going up against other law students, so they're going to be trying to play chess against you the

entire time that you're ready to go. Your job is to be more flutent in their witness than they are and then to not let them get away with anything. So everybody likes to say that I'm a little carbon copy of Dad, with just enough of my mother thrown in to be interesting. My father's Charles Harrish as the third He ran sets in University College of Laws Advocacy

program for fourteen years. During that time when he was in charge, they were always number one, number one in the nation for trial ad He is a giant of a personality and a titan within the industry and one of the people who now all of us who are currently in the job of coaching and teaching rely upon for his wisdom and what he did. But there is no understating the impact that he had on the profession

in particular. But he also casts a giant shadow. Listening to what they say is absolutely everything and cross examination you have to be engaged and in the moment. If you're not paying attention number one, they may give you a non verbal answer or you need to go back that's a yes, that's a no, because otherwise it's not on the record. And then, as you all know, one of the key jobs of the trial attorneys to protect the appellate record. You have to make sure that it's

on there, because otherwise you're you're robbing yourself of the argument. Technically, you're not permitted to argue any of that in your closing argument because it's not on the record, right, But listening to what they say provides fertile ground for further cross examination and further ground for embarrassment for them on those key facts. Toss out something that we haven't talked

about yet about cross examination. This is the part where the student interacts with the instructor blah blah blah blah blah. You know, speak frankly with me, Laura, Are you trying to build something that's going to exceed that legacy? Are you trying to outshine it? Are you trying to match it? Like? Does that create any metrics for you internally for how you're trying to build and continue to grow and enhance

the program you have at South Dakota. I'm going to say no. And and here's why I'm going to say no. I take inspiration from everything that my father has ever done. We have had a friendly competition going my entire life. When I took the S A T, I had to brag to him that I got a better S A T score than he did. When I took the outside,

I had to do the same thing. Like it's that kind of way that he's dirtured my own inherent competitive spirit to allow me to kind of grow into my own per And now I'm at the point where could I try and build what Dad built. Sure, good advocacy is about looking at the facts of your case, looking at the law, and coming up with a story that embraces a legal theme, of factual theme, and a moral theme that calls to justice and uses our trial system for what it's for, which is speaking truth to power.

That's what I want to build. I want to come back to this is so important to American democracy that everywhere should have this level of education and everywhere should get this level of exposure. And we have one lawyer for every citizens in our state. So we are a small bar which means that my students when they graduate and they go out to practice, they need to be

able to do a little bit of everything. They need to be a true main street lawyer in the way that the rest of the country maybe doesn't necessarily have. The South Dakotan walking down the street who gets busted for a d u I or a disorderly conduct deserves somebody who can go in and advocate at the same level as somebody who's in New York, or who's in California, or who's anywhere. We need to start recognizing that there are things in the middle of the country that are

incredibly valuable. There might be that time when some good Midwestern common sense approach to something is going to actually do you a lot of favors. So with that, why don't we go ahead and start wrapping things up for tonight. I expect to see you all back here bright and early tomorrow morning. Not only experts people, can I talk to you at front real QUI. Other than that y'all are good. You don't please say pizza with you. Whatever tournament you guys are doing, it's called buffalo. So that's

not all the experts law is about. Rules. I believe in rules, but more important than rules, it is something that is based on principles and values, and those are values of equal justice and fairness of process, and everything about that is found stating to me. And I love the idea that it's also about truth, truth finding and all the mechanisms that you use not only to get justice and fairness for people, but so the ultimate truth comes out. And I've always thought of it as a

noble pursuit. I tell the young wars it's a fabulous calling, but you have to regard it as your calling. Tony Sarah is a self described radical lawyer. He even took a vow of poverty in the nineteen sixties. He's represented clients such as the Black Panthers and the Hell's Angels at though he is still practicing law and continues to send fear and loathing into the hearts of judges across the country. It's a fabulous mission that you're going to embark on, but you have to regard it as a mission.

If you regard it as a job and that you're going to sure the interest mostly of corporations, then you're feeding into the status quo. But it's not really you is that really where you went to law school? Is that what you really want to do? Where do you want to improve our social and political securities? Okay, I'm gotta started. We're getting started. How's everybody done? I want to do two things real quick before we really get started. The first is that you know, while we're in law school,

something's happened. It's just part of life, yeah, and we all need each other to get through these hard times. Christian Ramon's father died. It was not expected, which is why he's not here right now. He's still going to try to be here tomorrow. They're burying his father today. So if you know him, and if you don't know him, maybe we can get a card, a note, a reach out to him to let him know that he's not alone, that other people are thinking of him in his time

of need. And if it's within you something that you do, maybe say a prayer for him and his family. And there's no doubt that these kind of events are going to happen to more of us. My mother passed away this year, just a few months ago, you know, and people rallied around me, and we've had things that happened. We've had babies that were born, and we rallied around each other for babies, the good stuff and the bad stuff.

As we start to get to know each other better and better, it will become easier and easier to rally around. Sometimes things happened before we've had that jelling effect. Okay, so who did not see the video on cross examination? Now there's no direct that it happened. Yet, why are we going directly to a cross? We're gonna work on directs. Directs are harder, crosses are easier. Why our cross is easier? Someone that watched the video? Tell me why crosses are easier?

Because you're so so only beginning yes or no? Andrews hopefully yes? Than you're telling the story. Yeah, what do I call that yes train? Right? Too? Right? That's the money train? Right, you get someone to say yes, that's the money train. That's what you want. You want to run away witness so you can slap them around and get them on your yes train. How do we control the witness? The question you're asking and what kind of questions are we asking? And the leading question is what

is question? One fact? Single fact questions? What is the one thing that I want to make sure that I get out of every witness that I cross examle every witness story, which story? First story? My story? Which is my which is my theory of the case? How do I get the theory of my case through that witness? Bring your chairs, leave your notes, leave your pens, just yourselves. You can bring water. So I want my first share here. Now, this is your first time through, and we expect you're

gonna make more mistakes than normal. It's okay. This is where you're allowed to make mistakes. This is our first step in cross examinations. They're going to make mistakes. We don't start yelling until the second time. Right the first time, It's easy, all stars and top load. I want to take you back to when you're interviewing Bobby see here from North Carolina? Where in North Carolina? Eastern North Carolina? Like? What city? And what's what's in snow hill? There's nothing there? Farms? Farmer,

are you on a farm right now? Where are you? Like? What are we mimicking here? Trial? And a trial is in what kind of room? Is is that on a farm? You're not on a farm. You've got to get serious right now. You're a little mad at me, aren't you. Yeah, I'm glad. That's what I was trying to get from you. Okay, I want you to be a little mad at me. I want you not on the farm right now. I love country. There's a place for country right now. We're not ready for you to be country. I need you

to be in a courtroom. So get mad at me. Get in the courtroom, get your head right, ask him those questions, Officer san Toppola. I want to take you back when you're an interview of Bobby. See Bobby c got an alert that his credit card would being used. Yeah, that's right at the zoo trip. Yes, it was. So your country is an advantage, right, It's a true advantage that you have. What were people like me? People love

hearing your voice. My voice is common yours isn't right, but you gotta just it can't be I'm on the farm. We gotta find that balance where I get to be me. But I don't want you to think like I'm on the farm. I earned my right to be here, all right, cool, thank you? Alright, Well, he made fun of my accent, which, uh, which is funny now, but I felt like it was

kind of a low blow at the time. Honestly, if he would have told me my cross examination was terrible, I would have been like, Okay, let me work on it. But yeah, he told me that, and it piss me off a little bit. I'm not gonna lie, actually a lot, but I mean it's true. He was like, yeah, I know you got a chip on your shoulder. Um, I can see it in your eyes. And that's true. And most of the time in my life, when I get

piste off, when I get angry, I weren't harder. And that's why he was trying to bring out of me. And I respect him more. Now I want you to write five questions cross examining, leading questions. This is your first boyer into a fact powdern don't go deep into the weeds. One fact, five questions you have until every year, a j writes up a simple case packet for the

students to argue. With this case in hand, they prepare for a short trial where they will have to do some of the most basic things a trial lawyer must know how to do. Introduce evidence into the record, impeach a witness, refresh their memory, and cross examine them. And that witness well, it'll be played to the Hilt by A J. So the story is about Bobby CE and Veronica J. And it's a real story to a certain point,

and then there's parts of it that aren't true. I used it back when I was at Maryland, and then I adopted it to hear so that it incorporates local town lore, including a bar that I love called Barbara. So Bobby CE and Veronica J. Were at a party. Veronica wanted to leave the party. She crossed over Martin Luther King Boulevard near Camden Pub on Baltimore Street in Baltimore City. Two men acrost them with a gun, demands um their property. Veronica gives their phone and their purse.

Bobby gives his wallet. The robbers did not take Bobby's phone because he had an analog phone. The robbers laughed at him and they ran off, And Bobby CE and Veronica J. We're so frightened by it that they never saw anyone that they couldn't tell you the person was a man or a woman or white, black, Hispanic Asian. They couldn't tell you anything about him. They were afraid. They were frozen in time. Two police officer to show up. Bobby gets a phone call from the bank says, your

credit cards being used at a gas station. Police put him in the back of the car. They go to the gas station. Veronica yells, that's them, that's people that robbed me. Bobbys says, I don't know. I was too afraid. I don't know if it's them or it's not. Police officers go out talk to the guys and they were both arrested for the robbery. Maybe those of you that were having a little bit of a hard time will

agree with rushing or skipping makes it hard. I make a mistake, So that's why you have to learn this like the back of your hand, all right. I asked Dennisis to do her five question cross in front of all of you. There's a lesson here that we're going to learn. So there's an error and a recovery. I want you to hear the error so that you can learn from it, not do it to yourselves. I'll explain it when it happens. We're good, John, you were called about a robbery. I was, yes, it involved two bigger

that's correct. It did not mention the number of roberts, correct. It did not mention the gender of the robberts. That's correct. You arrested two men at a gas station. Yes, it was two men. So you arrested two men without having any underlying fact of the gender of the robbers. So, I mean, we had other evidence to suggest that the robbers were male, um, particularly the call um. Obviously he

was able to identify eventually that the two men. Good got you got back what you wanted, right, all right? First I put her on a spot. So thank you, Jennis, just for doing that. Right. What was the question that you shouldn't have asked? He arrested two men without any description. So the question again, jennesss, So you arrested two men without having any underlying facts of the gender of the robbers. Now that sounds like a yes or no question, doesn't

It doesn't. That's a yes or no question. But it's not. It's not a yes or no question. Say it again. So you arrested two men without any underlying fact, without any underlying facts. What does that give the witness that takes that yes no question and creates it into an opportunity for a narrative. It's the one question too many. It's trying to get the witness to make the argument for you. When do we argue? When do we argue clothes?

We arguing clothes? Is the witness gonna argue for me? Now, the witness is never on my side on a US examination, I'm not going to help me. So this is genesis. I told him I grew up in a Mexican household and there was no sugarcoating. Ever. It was always very direct, you know. I would come out of my mom would say that shirt looks ugly. Go change. It was very that's wrong, fix it so here with a J. I really like that teaching style. That's how I grew up.

I kind of feel home. It doesn't hurt my feelings. So if you do it wrong, it's gonna be an improper impeachment. Someone's gonna exect because you do it wrong. Now you got to go back and do it again. Now the judge is getting piste off of you, the jury is getting piste off of you. So that's how we're trying to be perfect right so that you don't have to do it again, so you don't get objected to on an improper or an imperfect impeachment showing up

the council you have I always stand. I stand when I crossed the jam, and I stand when I addressed the court. I definitely stand when I addressed the jury. Your mind has to be show fast, so acute, so much. We call that you develop what you're gonna say right then. It's a spontaneity that creates the value. My god, I've seen lawyers read their cross examination. I've seen lawyers read

their close saved without passion. That's not the way to do a young lawyer's you know, stand up, be vociferous, be independent, be spontaneous, be creative, fight, be in their face. But you should know your path, the way that you're going to go. The two three things that I want from this witness, you should know what those are. You're all going to court tomorrow. How ready are you going to be? You cannot pass this class if you do not enter a piece of evidence, impeach the witness, and

refresh their memory. Those are the three things that you have to do. That's it. I want to hear your thinking, your thoughts, how you want to do it, how you put your case together. It has to be logical. You're gonna have your documents so that you can get to them. You can easily locate that document, so that you have a copy for you, a copy for the judge, a copy for the witness. You might have a spare copy

in case coffee gets spilled on one by accident. And it's curious to see whether or not you are prepared for court, so you should be ready for trial. For the students, tonight will be a long one spent pressing their suits and rehearsing in front of the mirror for tomorrow it's judgment tank. I take it. You know what a rabbit hole looks like? Yes, you can never get out. And what's in the bottom of there? Nothing right, rabbit's living,

the rabbit hole and the poop. When you're going down to the rabbit hole and you're going down to a barrel of boop, that's next time on Class Action. Class Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, written, and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers are Taylor Chacogne and Katrina Norvelle. Sound design, editing and

mixing by Evan Tire and Taylor Chacogne. This episode had additional field production by Kristen Cabrera, Paul Ebson, Alfredo de la Garza and Malia Lukomski. Additional story production by Jennifer Swan, Kristin Cabrera, Jason Foster, and Wendy Nardi. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.