Bonus: Checking in with AJ and Andy

it work for you? Well, let me just begin by saying, Hi Kevin, Hi Lisa, and of course Hi Andy. I have missed you so much this year. So my first reflection is the obvious. You know, when you guys came here and you brought the crew and the boom mix and if you might remember orientation, the hunting down, the steps in the crowd, cheering and h you know, that was a kind of our first recording that we had. And then you were everywhere and nowhere at the same time,

and we kind of forgot that you were there. But now I remember that you're not there, and I actually miss you. So thank you for having the bonus coverage because that gives us a chance to to reconnect. For me, you know, there were so many phone calls and emails and the wow I didn't know from people. I was shocked by that. I was shocked that we were trending

of Canada. It was just really humbling for me to be a part of this, more so because you did such an amazing job highlighting my students and what they were going through. And I think I've told this to the dean. I thought that I was pretty much in touch what was going on with our students. I knew that they were working hard. I knew what we were putting them through. It was difficult. I knew it was

a good purpose for were it. I don't think I really knew, you know, what I learned in the podcast, because there was a lot more that was going on. And he would tell you that I probably was. She's been to some of our our boot camp and in classes this year, and I think everyone will tell you that. I think I got softer because I was really worried about listening to some of those episodes. I was really worried about with the way that you know, some of

those students what they were going through. So it was educational for me. At the same time, you got to find that balance right of how far and how hard can you push them? You know. I just love the show. I miss it. I really do miss having you around. Andy. Yeah, I guess just like bouncing off what dan Aj was saying. I actually yesterday one of the victim advocates for some of my courts, which is the person that you know

deals with the victims, and he was there. He was the victim advocate in the case that went that Cassie and I tried. He was like, hey, okay, so whatever came of that the girl with the boom mic in the room, Like where where is that? I was like, yeah, you know, it's like it's a podcast. And he's like, oh, okay, Like let me go. I'm gonna go listen to it. And he was like, wait, I'm he was reading through it. He's like, I don't really get it. I was like, no, Like,

mock trial is like a whole universe. And he was like, so there's more of you and I was like, yes, there's more of me. Yeah. I was like no, this is it's like a subculture that people don't really know about.

So that was cool. Um and then today kind of also what Teenager was saying, I was kind of starting to think about everything that we went through and now that I am on the other side of things that, um, you know, I do go and like see how I can help, or if you know the teams need someone to scrimmage, or you know, if Teenager needs another pair

of hands on Saturday, like anything. I'm so happy because the program gave me everything, gave me the skills to have the job that I am now hopefully going to have October six fingers crossed. I was thinking about that and I was like, wow, we are. When I was living it, it was a lot of stress. It was a lot of anxiety. It was about how hard can they push you and how far can you go until you break? Don't break? Like if you break, it's done.

Like if you break, it's over. If you break, you don't in advance if you break, like and it was like the press. It felt like the pressure of the whole world on you. In retrospect, I can only remember the good things. I can only remember the feeling of knocking Baylor out of NTC for like the first time in like twenty years. I can only remember the feeling of like winning, I can only remember the highs and not to get to theoretical. But it's kind of akin

to my upbringing had very strict parents. I had a very very strict upbringing. But when you're on the other side of things, when you have reached success and you have fulfilled every dream that you've had, you're like, wow, you can only remember the good things, right, you can only you don't remember all those times that you they pushed you so hard that you know you're like, I

can't do it. Um, you only remember the good. So to wrap it up, I'm so glad that at least this last year was caught and putting these little time capsules that when I miss it or when I remember why I did it, or when I'm trying to think of what to say to younger team members that are now on the team, I just I can listen to it and I'm like, that's why, like that feeling or that bond or that support, Like that's why we were

fortunate enough to kind of follow one team. You had multiple teams actually happening, so we took a risk by you know, kind of going all in on on that one team. I want you to maybe if you wouldn't mind just sort of talk about what was it like sort of following that particular group of students first, and then second, maybe tell us a little bit about what we missed, because obviously we did not capture the flavor

of the entire team. No, that's right. I mean, I think if we go back to the first time that you interviewed me at the beginning, I had told you that our year would be decided by whether or not we would finally win a tournament. Um that we have this team. We had been building the program, not just in numbers, but in difficulty. We were we wanted. We were ratcheting it up a little bit more each year. We were making it. We're trying to just build the

students up each year. And I thought that this was the year. Last year was the year. It was my fourth full year here, and I thought that it was time for us to not just advance. They not just get a couple of Best Advocate or Best direct or

something awards. It was time for us to actually make it to those final rounds, and that I would determine whether or not, in my mind, I would determine whether or not we had a great year, whether or not we want something that I thought it was time that we want a tournament, and we had the advocates to do it with. I really believe that we had a huge year this year. In fact, it was our best

record ever in the history of our school's program. We advanced in every tournament that we participated in except for three uh and it was the most number of tournaments that we had participated in. We want our a J. That's the American Association of Justice. We want our regional tournament, that's the There's the National Trial Competition. That's the one that Andy and her teammates were in and your chronicled. That's one of the two big ones of the year.

The other one, there's another one that's called a a J Stacked, the Student Trial Act competition. You need points in Stack and you need points at A a J in order to make it to the Tournament of Champions. This school has never gone to the Tournament of Champions and that's our next goal. Our next goal is to make it to the Tournament of Champions. I'm hoping that we can do that in three to five years. But

we had an amazing year. Um I had asked you to hey, hang out with this National Trial League, which was a beast of a tournament. It was every other week, another fact pattern, another round of competition every other week from August all the way to November, and then it culminated with a round robin national championship in January, and we won that thing. I could not be more proud of those kids. We want our a j A Regional, our our Stack Regional, and two of those kids are

now States attorneys up in Denver. I mean, we really had just an incredible year. You know, we're getting better, We keep getting better, and now we're playing with some of the top programs in the country. And as a result of all of this work that we did this year, there's a performance ranking system that's out there, and they get graded based on the tournaments that you go to

and how you do at those tournaments. And before this year, I think we were eighty five and this year we're number thirteen and the country and that's your actual performance against everybody else in the country. And I cannot be more proud of these kids. But I'm really happy about

where our program is right now. Andy talk a little bit about the sort of bond that you know, you've formed with Cole and Jasmine and Mariella who was also sort of part of the team, and the fact that you know that you know all of you come from somewhat similar backgrounds, and how did that play out over the year. In the beginning, I think all of us were tossed out of our comfort zones from where we

had been the year before. None of us had ever worked together, and it was all about finding how we work together, and like, how are we going to work together? How are we going to figure out a way to make this work and make this the a team. But we didn't realize is that over the course of several competitions and over the course of all the months and all the hours that you spend together m mandatory and

non mandatory hours that you and together. I think that y'all probably took it out of us about like why we started to bond the way that we did and

all of the shared experiences that we had had. Yeah, over the course of time, we just it became it is a story of friendship, but it's like like not just like normal friendship, Like I'm talking like Harry Potter friendship, Like I would like they make me better, um, and I think that we all made each other better, Like I would have never become the advocate that I did without Jasmine, without Cole and vice rusa. Um, I think

we see that now more clearly. Jasmine and I have been helping out to scrimmage some of the right now the Battle of the Experts team that's about to go um here in this next coming week. And so it just makes me all the time, I just like see her now in this building and I'm just like, You're so close, but so far I wish you were just next to me all the time. Well, and you just spent this past Sunday in Guadelupe County with your old team. It's scrimmaging against them for an entire day on both

sides of the case. Right, you're not even you're not even a member of the team. You're like an aspiring, hopeful new coach for us moving forward. And there you were scrimmaging getting your old your old teammate Mariella ready for Battle of Experts. That's pretty cool. A do. You had mentioned You've been getting a lot of reactions from people, and I wanted to know what some of those I didn't knows were that you were hearing from people, whether

these were practicing attorneys or teachers or students. You know, the episode, right, was that episode seven. It was such a powerful, powerful, powerful episode. What was interesting to me was that that episode has drawn so much feedback from folks.

Some of it was, you know, we didn't know you know when I heard when Jasmine and Mariella, we're being questioned about them being one and the same, and there's no way that any human being couldn't confuse them because it couldn't be more different, nor could they look more different. Even when they were standing side by side, you could heard Jasmine say to Mariella, I think they think that we're cheating. Um that that that was caught so and

you are miss and seas yes, yes. The attorneys was well, he thinks are the same, you're You could hear that the pain was already happening, and it was such a powerful moment, and so many people reacted by saying we're sorry that you're students had to go through that because of that powerful emotion that came from them not realizing again that they were being recorded. Right, we got so used to you being around that something good has come

from that right. This year on the president of NELEE, the National Association of Legal Advocacy Educators, and my number one priority is to address this issue of this of it's unintentional. I mean, I don't I do not believe for one second that the people that we're saying that we're somehow intentionally trying to be whatever racist, discriminatory, or whatever word anybody wants to use. I do not believe that they meant it. That's the problem. Isn't that the problem?

They didn't mean to be But yet they were unintentionally and oblivious the message they were sending. They were completely oblivious to it. So how do we address that. We have a committee and we are working on on a policy that we could maybe best practices, something that every tournament should be thinking about, not just when they're putting teams together, but when they're inviting outsiders in to judge

their competition, to judge these students. I mean, at the end of the day, let's remember, these are still young adults. They really haven't gone out into the world. They're still trying to find themselves, and they don't know how to deal with these things. Look, I didn't know how to deal with it. Right. I was caught off guard by it, but now I'm more aware of and I think now because of this, I'm also willing to not stand still, uh, and I I want to try to do something about it.

That's one of the powers of your podcast is that I'm in a position where I can affect change, or I should be able to affect change. And I'm hoping that they're going to recommend to us a policy that we can give to everyone that and hopefully it's something that they'll abide and they'll share and they'll make even if they pick up pieces of it. It's better than where we are right now. Andy, did you get any fallout or reaction to that episode we're talking about episode seven.

I think that just when people heard it, they just were surprised that it happened and that it can that it's still two and we're still dealing with it, and that it's real, and that it's alive and well, and that maybe people don't even realize that they're doing it, which is the craziest part about all of it. Right, just that some shock, like two different newspapers reached out

about some comments. Um, they really wanted to talk about that episode, which um, I think it came out in one of the articles, and it was just like an important conversation to have as a community. I think it's an important conversation out in San Antonio, just as it is to have in New York and in every other state, but especially here. And it kind of pivoted to why representation matters, and that's what got out of it. Just to switch gears a little bit, you know, you seem

to have a pretty active summer. Uh, tell us where you went and what was that all? I so, um, I took the bar July. But then right after we finished on the second day, we finished around five and the next morning, UM, my family and I were at the airport at like seven am the next morning, so we jetted out of there. And so I was in Italy for the first week and then I was in

Portugal for the second week. So we just kind of took each week and went up and down each country and ate nothing but pasta and really by all accounts lived the dream um before coming back. So it was amazing and A J I know you were overseas to what what was that program and what were you doing over there? Yeah? I was I mean. First, I went back to Maryland, though, uh, and we packed up our house. We moved out of it, waiting for our house here

in Texas to finally be built. So after we packed up the house and moved it out, went to St Andrew, Scotland. We showed up the day that the British opened, the last day of the British Open. I played on the course next to the old course. I didn't get to play on the old course. I'm not good enough. But I went out there for Baylor Law School holds a summer advanced advocacy program. I was invited to help teach that program, and I was in awe for those two

we I learned so much about advocacy. There were great legendary instructors from all over the country. I felt like I was a student in the room. I feel like I came back a better a better advocate teacher than before I left to go there. Scotland is a beautiful, amazing country. My wife and a couple of students went up to Inverness and we got to walk the fields of Colada and the battlefields of Colote. And I was invited to go back next year and I cannot wait

to do that after I go to Greece and Turkey. Yeah, I'm getting older. I need to start traveling more, right, so I need to get it in. So yeah, I know, I had a wonderful had an incredible summer, and I did that just before boot camp and then uh, you know, we started another group of twenty four the day after I got back. What does this year's team look like? What you're feeling going in? Every team every year has a certain rhythm to it, and the rhythm to Andy's

team was this just real drive. It's like get either lead us or get out of the way. Sometimes they were like pushing you right, you're going too slow for us. Sometimes they were like whoa slow down. But most of the time they were like you're going to slow you know. They were like, get out of the way. We got it, we gotta coach, let us go. I think the national team that won the championship did Andy's team at NTC was like that they finally got to the point that

we got this. Get out of the way. But I felt when they walked in they kind of had that chip on their shoulder when they walked in. So this group is not like Andy screwp talented group, a little bit more reserved, a little bit more what do I do now? What do I do next? You know, you love that right because they're saying what do I do next? Then they're sponges and they're taking it in. But I hope that in time we'll get them a little bit

more like the class of twenty two. I loved it because they became their own voices and their own advocates. This young lady that you have here in the podcast room with me, you know, look at her. She just turned into this amazing advocate. She's gonna be a great lawyer. Someone's gonna be really lucky to have her representing them. And that's what I hope all these kids turned out to be. This class is going to actually actually has

more opportunity than Andy's class. They're going to competition out in Atlanta. They're going to travel. Andy's team didn't get to travel to Atlanta. We're gonna send the T two teams out to arbitration, and we're sending a team out to William Daniels and we have people already playing with National Trial League. We'll see where we go. We have we have a few that are really good, but they have to stick it out. They have to do the dirty work to get to the to get to the glory. Right, Andy,

are you over the whole ANTC experience? Um? I mean that was tough to witness, definitely, and and you a days two we got right up to the line. But I actually listened to it this morning and it really took me back, like to that day and to that moment and to that thing, and I'm like, it's just too soon, Like I can still feel it like it was yesterday. And yeah, I don't know. I think we'll be talking about that for a while. Like I think Jasmine and I will probably be talking about that for

the rest of our lives. I can't help, right, but being like, well, what if, like what if the cards would have been different? Right? Because danger was totally right, Like we there was a high and then we came crashing down. We weren't ready. We I don't think we were prepared to Like what happens when you take out Baylor, Well that's not really going to happen until the end, So you don't even need to prep for that. If

you take out Baylor, you win. We took out Baylor, but there was another step right like, and we weren't ready for that. Yeah, I think it's just something that we'll be talking about forever. But tragic story. I had to hear that episode twice because the first time I heard the episode. Yeah, I don't mind saying it now, but Lisa tried catching me. Um. I was in a room by myself. I'm probably gonna do it again right

now just thinking about it. But I was in the scoring room and I was so I was by myself in this room, and I just felt that we failed the students because we just kept telling him, you've got to beat Baylor. We gotta get over this humble. Baylor's the number you know, the number two team in the country that has been for you know, as long as I've been doing this, they've been number two or three, and every road goes through Baylor. If we're going to

go somewhere, we need to go through Baylor. We were lucky enough to beat Baylor and not in the outrounds, but we've had never beaten Baylor in the outrounds, and here you go, the first time ever we beat this incredible program. I remember when the announcement was made I

was watching them in the three courtroom. Team on Texas will go prosecution against Team one S three St. Mary's congratulations to all of you, for those of you who I couldn't say what I was thinking, and what I was thinking was we beat Baylor and that's all that they're thinking about, and they're not thinking about the next round. And I just felt like, you know, everyone got kind

of caught up in that. All the coaches did, and we really did, you know, let them down a bit, because a good coaching decision would have been to get them out of that room, get them to a safe place, and get them refocus. Instead, what they did is they went into a room and they they weren't ready for the round. They just weren't. I don't know if it would have honestly helped because the turnaround, I mean, I

don't know, I don't know what would have happened. But what I do know is that I know that the side that we went on, we weren't prepared to go that side again, Like it was like you needed more of a second. But as soon as they announced that they were like, okay, the round starts in twenty minutes, you could I don't know, like, I don't maybe right, like if they would have taken us out to another room and they would have done a thing, but I don't know if it would have overcome the side in

the amount of time that you had to recuperate. You're you're, you're, You're absolutely right on that, but we should have done that. So when Lisa came into the room, she had asked me, what are you thinking? And I just I just I literally had to stomp away from her. I mean, I just broke out in tears and I couldn't even speak. Um, I was just I was overcome by by that moment as well that we had gotten so far, and yet I felt like we let them down. I really do.

I don't think the students than anything wrong. Well, and and we think we let you all down, right, No, not at all. You were you were pretty incredible, and but there were a couple of things that we missed that if we were paying attention, we could have better protected the team in that final round. And I think they could add a better outcome, but everyone was a little overcome by it, and uh, and we failed to protect them. And that's our job as coaches is to

protect our teams. So that's the wood, right, But and I do think that if that team made it to Nationals, they would have been a real force to contend with. I did want to ask you, Andy, you know, now that you've graduated, you've taken the bar. First of all, do you feel like you've passed the bar? What a terrible question to ask someone, Kevin, don't ask people that. Wow, what is when you take a test? Don't you kind of know whether you've aced the test? And I don't know?

You knock on wood, jeez, take that back. Okay, Well, now that you've taken the bar and you potentially contest and you've had a offer, where do you think your career will go? Well? I think it will probably start off of UM as a misdemeanor prosecutor here in Barry County, UM.

And then after that, I don't know. I guess wherever the trials take me, Wherever I feel like it can make the most impact, Wherever my skills can be used for their maximum potential, Wherever I can feel like I'm making a difference, where I feel like I'm doing the right thing. Um, I'm sure eventually I'll want to go private, whether that's the criminal defense or civil whatever way that leans UM. But maybe not. Maybe I'll be a prosecutor

of my BOFE. Maybe I'll run for office. Who knows. UM. You know, I think it takes a tremendous amount of courage to get up there and do what you do. I think it's really difficult to even if it's in a you know, quote mock environment, to you know, study up on the case, you know as much as you know about the case, go through all the procedures, face a judge, facing another team, another school, you're just out

there on an island. You know. Having now seen it in action, I have great respect for for what you all do, and you know, for what lawyers do. It sort of did validate I think, and Lisa feels the same validate. Our initial idea behind this is to understand what it takes and and it's it's at a very high level, and it's frightening. I mean, it is absolutely frightening. So to see your team go as far as you did and to be a part of that and to

know how tough it is, Uh, that was really wonderful. Yeah, I appreciate you understanding the fear that I go through and get in front of those students stuff every every week, week after week. Thank you. And I just have to say it's great to see the two of you again, and we again can never thank you enough for all the time that you've given us and the you know, thoughts that you share and to spend a little bit of time with your life was really iportant to us.

So it was great for us. I'm glad at Cans to meet both of you and your crew, and I think it's important to say thank you for what you did for St. Mary's and our students. I mean, I think a lot of people have heard your work. It was just done so incredibly beautiful. Thank you for for all your hard work and telling our little story and our little neckcor role. Yeah, I mean it really it

made us feel seen. I really had no idea. I remember first day of boot camp, like when I first talked to you all, like, no idea why you would be interested in this school, Like in the middle of nowhere, full of all these like you know, little brown kids, like okay, we're allowed, we're trying to channel that here. Why why does it matter? Why do we matter? And it was just awesome. It was wonderful, so thank you

so much for that. And as a quick note, after this recording, the team received their our results and all three Andy, Jasmine and Cole passed the bar and are now practicing attorneys. Last Action is a production of I Heart Radio and Sound Argument, created, produced, and edited by Kevin Huffman and Lisa Gray. Executive producers are Taylor Shakogne and Katrina Norvell. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your favorite shows.