Northern Mariana Islands

Welcome to Civil Discourse. This podcast will use government documents to illuminate the workings of the American Government and offer contexts around the effects of government agencies in your everyday life. Now your hosts, Nia Rodgers, Public Affairs Librarian and Dr. John Aughenbaugh, Political Science Professor. N. Rodgers: Hey, Aughie. J. Aughenbaugh: Good morning, Nia. How are you? N. Rodgers: Oh, I'm really, really good. How are you? J. Aughenbaugh: Well, I'm fine, because once again, we get to project to a US territory that has a far warmer climate than what we're encountering this morning here in Central Virginia. N. Rodgers: Can I suggest with the slight frogginess to your sound of your voice? Part of that, by the way, listeners, is that we record on Fridays, and Aughie has taught all week. He teaches five classes because he's a lunatic. By Friday, his voice is like, Maya he sounds like like Kathleen Turner on a good night. J. Aughenbaugh: Like, I spent Thursday night at a bar. N. Rodgers: At a bar drinking and smoking. J. Aughenbaugh: Right? N. Rodgers: Telling stories. J. Aughenbaugh: Stories, yes. N. Rodgers: But I think that it would help you to go to this island. J. Aughenbaugh: Oh, yes. N. Rodgers: Like, you should get your doctor to write a note. Do you remember Welcome back Cotter? You could get Aughenbaugh's mother's doctor. J. Aughenbaugh: Doctor. N. Rodgers: Because wasn't it Epstein's mother's doctor? J. Aughenbaugh: Doctor, yes. N. Rodgers: Who wrote all the notes. That's the way they signed them, Epstein's mother's doctor. J. Aughenbaugh: His doctor. When they were trying to skip class. Avoiding exam. Turning the paper. N. Rodgers: The teacher would read the paper, and at the end of the signature would be Epstein's mother's doctor. Instead of doctor so and so, Epstein's mother's doctor. J. Aughenbaugh: Doctor. N. Rodgers: Aughenbaugh's mother's doctor could send him to the Northern Mariana Islands. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: Are there Southern Mariana Islands? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, there is. N. Rodgers: They're not our concern. J. Aughenbaugh: They're not our concern because the Northern Mariana Islands, officially known as the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands, CNMI an acronym that we probably will not use the rest of this podcast episode. But the Northern Mariana Islands is a Commonwealth of the United States. It actually consists of 14 different islands in the Northwest Pacific Ocean. It is a separate US territory. N. Rodgers: Way far away. J. Aughenbaugh: Way far away, yes. N. Rodgers: Because people think, oh, the Pacific. Oh, no. The Pacific is huge. Huge. J. Aughenbaugh: It's a large body of water. N. Rodgers: Yes. It is huge. J. Aughenbaugh: It's not a pond or a lake. N. Rodgers: The distance between us and Europe is by plane, about six hours. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: The distance between us and Tokyo or Japan. Sorry, is like 16 hours. 17. Like, that tells you the size of the ocean. They're itty bitty islands in the middle of nowhere, basically. J. Aughenbaugh: Much like the other territories we are covering in this series, Nia, the Northern Marianas have been under control by a number of different empires. N. Rodgers: They change hands like hot rocks. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: No, you hold it. No, you hold it. J. Aughenbaugh: The Northern Marianas have been controlled not only by the Spanish, which is what we saw, for instance with Guam or Puerto Rico. But we also at various times, the Northern Marianas have been under the control of the Germans and even the Japanese. N. Rodgers: Then, under some weird trust thing where It was the United Nations. At some point, the United Nations is like, they belong to us. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: They have really changed hands quite a bit, relatively speaking. Although for the first what? Like 2,000 years? J. Aughenbaugh: From 1500 BC until 1521 AD. N. Rodgers: They pretty much owned themselves, 3,000 years. J. Aughenbaugh: When the Spanish colonized them they were much like most of the islands in the Pacific, populated and controlled by indigenous, if you will, persons. N. Rodgers: Folks who get in bots, who are gutsy. Head off to nothingness to see what's out there. They find an island and they're like, this looks good and they stay. J. Aughenbaugh: The Northern Marianas, when you combine all the islands, not very large, 183.5 square miles. Not a lot of people, slightly over 47,000. The vast majority resides in Saipan, Tinian, and Rhoda. N. Rodgers: The word Saipan and Saipan. J. Aughenbaugh: Saipan. N. Rodgers: Is it either way? J. Aughenbaugh: Either way. In a number of the sources I looked up, they actually had both. N. Rodgers: Both pronunciations. That's right. J. Aughenbaugh: The Capital, if you will, is Saipan and the administrative center is Capitol Hill. Yes. N. Rodgers: I love that. I like it when people name things what they are. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, it's a capital. It's a capital on a hill. Exactly. Capitol Hill. N. Rodgers: I am from North Carolina, and we have a thing called Deep River. Because it's a deep River. You know what I mean? I like when people just, they just give up on the naming thing. They're like, I can't be bothered. I can't be bothered to come up with some important, whatever woody woody name. I'm you're going to call it Capitol Hill cause that's what it is. J. Aughenbaugh: I went fishing one time with a couple of my uncles, and this was either in Michigan or Wisconsin. We went to this small town and we went fishing, and the name of the lake was the muddy water lake. N. Rodgers: See? Very straightforward. Exactly why it's named that. J. Aughenbaugh: Of course I was like, all of 12 or 13. I had loads of questions. I asked the fishing guide. He said, so how did they come up with that? He pointed to the water, and he goes, It looks muddy. I said, oh. J. Aughenbaugh: There was no grand historical figure. There wasn't some event. No, this is muddy water. Hey, won't we just call it the muddy water? N. Rodgers: I love it. Is there governance system? Do they have a governor? Do they have a president? J. Aughenbaugh: Most of the US territories, once they become, property in the United States, most of the territories end up adopting the separation of powers arrangement that we have in the United States. The Northern Marianas have a chief executive, a governor. The current governor is Arnold Palacios. They have a Senate and a House comprising their legislative branch, and they also have a judicial branch. N. Rodgers: Are the Senate and House very big? It can't be with 47,000 people. J. Aughenbaugh: No, the Senate is comprised of 39 members, and the House is comprised of 20. N. Rodgers: But I like that. It's odd numbers. J. Aughenbaugh: Odd in the Senate, even in the House, which is the converse of the United States Congress, where we have an odd number in the House, and we have an even number in the Senate. N. Rodgers: They like to mix things up. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. N. Rodgers: It's interesting to me, Aughie, that the houses in the constitutional system of the United States are always bigger. Because they're the direct representative of the people. The Senate is two people from each state, and he might or might not be your cup of tea. But your district. J. Aughenbaugh: Representative. N. Rodgers: Should be closer to what you in your area, hear me out on this. Y'all probably don't know this about Hanover County, which is where I live, is that Hanover is known for its tomatoes. In fact, on its sign that says, welcome to Hanover County, the O is a tomato. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: We can't even talk about the graphics of that. But anyway, you would need to represent the tomato interests if you were going to represent a district that includes Hanover County. You would need to be aware of the agriculture of this area because it is so important to the identity of the county. Whereas the senator and I'm not slamming Cain or Warner. I'm sure they're lovely people. I've met Tim Cain once. He was very nice. But they don't have that granular connection, I would think. J. Aughenbaugh: They have more people to represent. They have to cover. N. Rodgers: Geographically, much larger. J. Aughenbaugh: Area. They have a variety of interests. Again, that's done on purpose because the House of Representatives early on in the history of the United States, you had members of the House of Representatives that referred to it as the People's House. N. Rodgers: This is the closest the people get to actual representation. J. Aughenbaugh: Representation in the federal government. Now you get closer representation within state and local government. One hopes. But nevertheless, in regards to a national government, you are correct, Nia. It's done on purpose. That it forces federal government officials to have a close personal tie to a specific geographical area and the citizens within that jurisdiction. N. Rodgers: Theoretically, making them more responsive. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Although with 47,000 people, one would think that everybody could take a turn serving at some point. That's not a very big population. J. Aughenbaugh: No. J. Aughenbaugh: I imagine that a huge amount of that population are related to each other. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: You've got to have a bunch of cousins. On an island, because it's a closed population. J. Aughenbaugh: Because it's difficult to get there, and some of the islands are not even inhabited. Even more so I can imagine that the population areas are comparatively densely populated. N. Rodgers: Can I buy an island? J. Aughenbaugh: I don't know if you could buy an island. I didn't get into that in my research. I don't know if they're selling property on the Northern Marianas. N. Rodgers: No, in some places, in a lot of the islands, you're not allowed to own if you're not native. J. Aughenbaugh: Native. You're asking. N. Rodgers: I don't know, Nia. Do you have that money? J. Aughenbaugh: I was just like, wow. well, you're taking seriously what I thought was a somewhat light-hearted conversation about relocating to the Northern Marianas. N. Rodgers: No, I'm sorry. I meant an uninhabited island sounds pretty good to me right now. I'm just and then if COVID happened again, you could be like, so because I live on an uninhabited. Well, I guess, if you lived there, it would no longer be uninhabited. J. Aughenbaugh: Uninhabited that is correct. By definition, it would be inhabited. N. Rodgers: I can never say I live on an uninhabited island, that makes me sad. J. Aughenbaugh: The Northern Marianas, like many countries, see previous podcast episode do have some restrictions on foreigners buying property. Yes. N. Rodgers: Even though it's an American territory, are Mainland Americans considered foreigners? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: You still have to have your passport to get there? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: You just don't have to have a visa. J. Aughenbaugh: That is correct. N. Rodgers: Is that the difference with territory versus a foreign country? Is that a territory, your driver's license or your passport will get you there? J. Aughenbaugh: Pretty much. For most of the world. N. Rodgers: We can recognize the reciprocal relationship between the mainland. Got you. J. Aughenbaugh: We can get into other fine distinctions based on geopolitics of that time, but that would require us to bring in our colleagues and good friends, Twig Newman or Saladino to explain some of that stuff. N. Rodgers: Maybe we'll do that sometimes. J. Aughenbaugh: Let's get into the history of the Northern Marianas. As we mentioned previously, the Spanish came in in 1521. N. Rodgers: They showed up to a perfectly lovely place with its own people and said, this looks conquerable. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. In the late 1800s, in fact, 1899, Spain. For listeners, this is part of a series about US territories. In those previous episodes, particularly with, for instance, Guam, we went ahead and mentioned the importance of the Spanish American War. One of the artifacts of the Spanish American War was in 1899, Spain sold the Northern Marianas to Germany in the Spanish German Treaty of 1899. This is roughly the same time where the United States got Guam in Puerto Rico. N. Rodgers: Just side note of the side note for our listeners, often what happens after war is the losing party owes a lot of money to a lot of people. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: They look around for stuff that they can sell to try to pay their debts back. Is this that kind of situation? J. Aughenbaugh: It's like a divorce Nia. N. Rodgers: To liquidate your holdings. J. Aughenbaugh: You're liquidating your assets because you got to pay off some debt. In the case of a war, you are correct. The Spanish did not fare well in the Spanish American War. Their colonial empire was crumbling. They had accumulated decades if not centuries of debt because maintaining a colonial empire across the world can be a costly endeavor. N. Rodgers: Across the world. If you're like Rome and you have your empire all within horseback of your original state, then you probably can hold on to it a little bit better. But once you start getting way out into the oceans and it takes weeks and weeks or months to get to some parts of your empire, I think it would be a lot harder to maintain. J. Aughenbaugh: Germany takes over the Northern Marianas at the end of World War I. Once again, we're returning to a point that Nia just mentioned. N. Rodgers: Germany loses. J. Aughenbaugh: Germany loses. N. Rodgers: And is in massive debt which leads us to World War II, eventually because the Treaty of Versailles was like you will give, isn't it the Treaty of Versailles, World War I? J. Aughenbaugh: That is correct. N. Rodgers: The debt load put on to Germany was enormous. J. Aughenbaugh: Enormous. Was exorbitant, yes. The Islands, the Northern Marianas as part of the League of Nations became part of Japan. N. Rodgers: The Japanese mandate. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: The Japanese will watch over all of this stuff. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: They got several things. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: When that happened? J. Aughenbaugh: Japan maintained control of the Northern Marianas until the battle of Saipan in 1944. N. Rodgers: Shout out to Neil Atlo's dad who fought in that battle. J. Aughenbaugh: Because the Japanese lost, the Northern Marianas became part of what Nia referred to earlier, the UN trust territory. Officially, it was the trust territory of the Pacific Islands, TTPI. Now, the trust. N. Rodgers: Didn't the trust try to make Guam and Northern Mariana, like one country? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. Which did not go over very well because at that point, Guam was already like, hey, we're a territory of the United States. The United States has allowed us to create our own democratic government. We got this thing called separation of powers. N. Rodgers: We're sealing all the fields. J. Aughenbaugh: The US military is dumping a whole bunch of money. N. Rodgers: Building stuff, doing or casting. J. Aughenbaugh: But eventually, the trust relented and the Northern Marianas became a part of the United States in 1986. N. Rodgers: That's when it got its name, the Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: CNMI? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Its residents are US citizens, like Puerto Rico, like Guam. J. Aughenbaugh: Samoa. N. Rodgers: Which we will get to. We will get to Samoa eventually. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, a little foreshadowing. N. Rodgers: They're all American citizens, they can travel to the mainland whenever they like. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. Much like the afore mentioned Guam in Puerto Rico, in 2009, the Northern Marianas were able to elect a non-voting delegate to the United States Congress. N. Rodgers: By non-voting, you mean non-voting in the full Congress, but they can actually vote in committee. J. Aughenbaugh: That is correct. Yes. That's right. N. Rodgers: They can crabbily talk on the floor, they just can't vote. J. Aughenbaugh: That's correct. N. Rodgers: Well, I don't know anybody who nicely talks on the floor. Everybody who talks on the floor is crabby about something. That's why you talk on the floor is to express your crabbiness about something. J. Aughenbaugh: Listeners, if you ever want to go ahead and be entertained by the sheer number of apparently really grumpy people. N. Rodgers: Crabby people who have crabby things to say, watch C-SPAN. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, turn on C-SPAN in the middle of the day when Congress is in session. N. Rodgers: Yeah, there'll be two people in the room. The person with the gavel, there'll be a couple of clerks, and there'll be somebody at the podium crabbing about something. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, and if that's your only or first exposure to the United States Congress. N. Rodgers: It makes you feel like it's dysfunctional. J. Aughenbaugh: Well, you come away from that, like, man, there are some really upset and annoyed people who represent Americans in their legislative body. N. Rodgers: But in all seriousness, folks, before we get to the politics of the Mariana Islands, the reason people do that in Congress and the reason people want a non-voting delegate is that is a way to get things on the record, because once it is said on the floor of the House or the Senate, and these people are not in the Senate, these people are all in the House, but once it's set on the floor of the House, it goes into the congressional record. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: If you want to register your crabbiness about something on behalf of your folks, that's why you do it. That's why you stand up there with your charts and your big easel and whatever, and you point to things and you yell at the camera. It's mostly so that you can go on record as saying, this is a terrible idea, and we don't like it. It is going back to the idea of representing your people specifically. Think about this person represents 47,000 people, that's actually a relatively small number for a delegate. J. Aughenbaugh: When you run for reelection, then you can go ahead and say, "Look at all the fine work that I've been doing representing and defending the interests of my people." N. Rodgers: Which brings us to politics. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Because in fact, that is why people do stuff in the House, is so that they can get re-elected. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. That's part of the rationality of elected representatives. N. Rodgers: Right. J. Aughenbaugh: If they like their job and they want to keep it, they're going to do the things that have been demonstrated to support them keeping their job. It's you and I, Nia, when we go ahead and attend a meeting on a Friday afternoon. We don't like meetings on Friday afternoons, but you got to show up because that's part of the job, so let's talk about politics. N. Rodgers: Which by the way, those people are going to purgatory, people who make meetings on Friday afternoons, especially late Friday afternoon. You don't want me to be engaged in this at all, do you? J. Aughenbaugh: Listeners, I think Nia is grossly underplaying the people in the hereafter. N. Rodgers: Dante left out that level of help. J. Aughenbaugh: Oh, yes. N. Rodgers: Friday afternoon meeting hell. J. Aughenbaugh: But I digress. Let's talk about politics. N. Rodgers: Please. J. Aughenbaugh: As I mentioned previously, the Northern Marianas have your basic presidential Republicans small are representative Democratic system. They have your classic separation of powers arrangement, they have an executive branch headed by the governor who I've already given a shout out to. Legislative powers in a bicameral legislature. Again, we've already discussed. Then they have a judiciary, they have a Supreme Court, and then they have trial courts. N. Rodgers: How are they funded? Do they get federal funds in addition to, I'm assuming tourism and other kinds of funds? J. Aughenbaugh: They do get funds, and it's administered by the Department of the Interior. N. Rodgers: Tell me that it's under some crazy office with an awesome name. J. Aughenbaugh: The Office of Insular Affairs. N. Rodgers: Insular. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Does that office administer all the territories, probably? J. Aughenbaugh: Well, not all because remember, in Guam, Guam for years was part of the Department of Defense. N. Rodgers: That's right. J. Aughenbaugh: Apparently Northern Marianas, part of the US national security. N. Rodgers: It was just seen as interior prey, pretty land that we should take care of. J. Aughenbaugh: Now, in a number of the sources that I researched Nia, and I'm moving down into my prep notes to the third bullet point. This came up multiple times, and I had to include it. Some critics have said that politics on the Northern Mariana Islands is often "more a function of family relationships and personal loyalties, where the size of one's function of extended family is more important than a candidate's personal qualifications." N. Rodgers: You know what? With 47,000 people, that makes sense. That makes it a small group, probably most people know each other from a given area. If you're talking about 20 representatives, you're talking about a pretty small number of people that they're representing. They're probably going to know a lot of those people personally. J. Aughenbaugh: It's like listeners, if you think about even democratic nation states, democratic countries, and when I talk about democrat, I'm talking democracy, but even think about, for instance, countries like Iceland or Ireland or Portugal, they're not large. In the size of the population, though obviously larger than the Northern Marianas, because they're so small, there are going to be, for instance, extended families who are active in politics simply because that is the family business. N. Rodgers: Massachusetts, the Kennedy's. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Bush's in Texas. J. Aughenbaugh: Texas, yeah. N. Rodgers: Is a side note 47000/20, each of these people represent 2,300 people? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: You've taught that in a year's time. Not quite. I mean a few years time. But what I'm saying is that's a pretty intimate relationship when you consider that number of people being represented by the 20 members of the House. There's not a state in the United States, even Montana. The representatives represent more than that. J. Aughenbaugh: Now, like any good democracy, there have been some recent controversies in the Northern Marianas. N. Rodgers: Of course. J. Aughenbaugh: In particular, and this is something that we will revisit with a number of the US territories. The Islands budget situation has been somewhat problematic, but in particular, their pension system. N. Rodgers: Yes. See earlier when we talked about Puerto Rico and its financial problems. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: This is an issue for territory. Doesn't seem to be much of an issue for Guam. J. Aughenbaugh: Guam, but certainly with Puerto Rico. N. Rodgers: Now with Northern Mariana. J. Aughenbaugh: Specifically for the northern Mariana Islands, the problem was the government's funding of public pensions. Their public pension fund had to declare Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Chapter 11 refers to the section of the United States code that covers people's being bankruptcy. N. Rodgers: It's type of a bankruptcy. J. Aughenbaugh: The government had $268 million in pension assets but they had $911 million in liabilities. N. Rodgers: What do you mean I can't keep writing checks? I've still got checks on my checkbook. J. Aughenbaugh: I'm not a math major, Nia. N. Rodgers: But that seems bad. I got $200, and I owe $900. This seems bad. J. Aughenbaugh: When your liabilities are three times greater than your assets. N. Rodgers: That's bad. J. Aughenbaugh: That's bad. I believe that's almost the definition of being insolvent. N. Rodgers: But in fairness, the part of the problem with that is that, and this happens with retirement funds sometimes because they're tied to the stock market. If the stock market does not do well, if for some reason they have low investment return. You put your money into this fund and it doesn't make the 5%, it makes 2%, but you spent as if it's going to make 5%, then you're going to find yourself in the hole. How many politicians want to say to old people, I'm going to have to cut your pension? J. Aughenbaugh: Well, here's the other issue on the Northern Marianas and we're beginning to see this in a number of large cities in the United States. When you talk about a public pension fund, it's one thing to go ahead and create a pension fund where you guarantee retirement for a particular age group. But then when that age group actually gets to retirement age then you are responsible for paying them a pension, a retirement check. But if you don't increase your tax revenues to cover that increased cost, it doesn't matter how well your investments. N. Rodgers: That's true. J. Aughenbaugh: Made by the pension fund. N. Rodgers: 'Cause they can't make up the difference. J. Aughenbaugh: You can't make up the difference. You either have to cut the benefits or you have to raise taxes. No politician, particularly in, a seemingly close knit, if you will. N. Rodgers: I'm looking forward to raising the taxes on my cousin. Like, that's not. J. Aughenbaugh: No politician in their right mind, one, likes to raise taxes, but two. N. Rodgers: On people they know. J. Aughenbaugh: People they know that are family members, distant relatives. N. Rodgers: That's not good. J. Aughenbaugh: You imagine what holiday meals are like? N. Rodgers: My goodness. You raise taxes on our granny. No. J. Aughenbaugh: Now, in terms of partisan politics, Nia, I don't know if you caught this in my research. N. Rodgers: Did people freak out? J. Aughenbaugh: Yes, they did. It actually led to an impeachment effort of the then sitting governor, and he was indicted for withholding payments from the pension fund. For also not paying the local utility bill and for cutting off funding to the only hospital in the Northern Marianas. N. Rodgers: Holy cow. This guy is a winner. J. Aughenbaugh: He also withheld required funds from the public schools. N. Rodgers: Wow. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: Now, did he take the money or did he just not pay that stuff? J. Aughenbaugh: He just withheld payments. N. Rodgers: He didn't embezzle. J. Aughenbaugh: No. N. Rodgers: He just didn't pay. J. Aughenbaugh: There was one impeachment charge that would be legal pretty much in almost every democracy that I know. He signed a contract that was a sole source $190 million contract for the power plant. N. Rodgers: He didn't put it out for bid. J. Aughenbaugh: For bid, yes. N. Rodgers: You can't do that. Folks, as a side note for any government official, if you're spending more than what? Like $12? J. Aughenbaugh: Dollars. N. Rodgers: It's not that low, but there is a sum, and every institution has VCU has an amount. I don't know what it is because I don't buy stuff at VCU in that cost range. But let's pretend that you want to buy 10,000 computers for VCU. That's going to put you over the amount of money where you then have to put that out for bid and you have to see who's going to provide those computers? Is it going to be Dell? Is it going to be IBM? Is it going to be all the different companies? Apple? Those people have the right to bid on that contract. The university has to read all the bids and make a reasoned decision and be able to defend it. This is why we chose this company over this company. You can't just say, hey, so I'm going to call up my friend Bob's computers, and I'm going to have him bring me 10,000 computers, and I'm going to pay. Because they could charge you, they could overcharge you. They could not be a good business investment. Like, there could be a lot of reasons why you don't want a sole source. J. Aughenbaugh: Contract, particularly. N. Rodgers: Contract. J. Aughenbaugh: Let's face it, listeners, anytime a government is doing a sole source contract and the value of the contract is in the millions, and in this case, $190 million. N. Rodgers: Somebody's getting a kick back of some kind. N. Rodgers: It's just sketchy. You don't do it because ethically, it's not. We live in a society where if you want capitalism to work, then all the forces need to be able to compete. What you do is you always pick X company. That's not competition. J. Aughenbaugh: There's no competition in the market, and you want the government to get competitive bids. N. Rodgers: Encourage competition. J. Aughenbaugh: Encourage, because you want good private sector delivery on a good or service that the government has identified as a need for the public. In this particular case, we're talking about power generation for the Islands. N. Rodgers: Which is pretty much a need. I'm just going to put out there [inaudible] electricity. J. Aughenbaugh: In a previous episode about Puerto Rico, ask the Puerto Ricans, whether or not. N. Rodgers: How they feel about power? J. Aughenbaugh: Whether or not they want a sustainable source, of electrical power. By the way, politically, the Northern Marianas is a very Republican, R territory. N. Rodgers: Is that 'cause they're mostly Catholic, you think? Don't Catholics tend to skew. J. Aughenbaugh: Increasingly, they've skewed Catholic. N. Rodgers: Skew Republican. Don't Catholics tend to skew Republican or Conservative? Maybe a Conservative would be. J. Aughenbaugh: Recent vintage they have. N. Rodgers: Oh no, but Kennedy was a Democrat. J. Aughenbaugh: In the United States. Catholic majorities comprised a huge part of the labor movement and the Democratic realignment in the United States in the 1930s, '40s, and '50s. N. Rodgers: That's only in the modern era. J. Aughenbaugh: If you compare territories, think about this. Puerto Rico is a majority Catholic, and that's pretty liberal. You want to talk about the economy? N. Rodgers: Sure. Do they have one? To speak of? J. Aughenbaugh: Much like the other territories. A huge chunk of the Northern Mariana's GDP is because of its trading relationship with the United States federal government. Is economy relies a lot on tourism, mostly from Japan. They have a huge garment manufacturing sector. N. Rodgers: I think I'm not trying to be ugly here, Aughie, but I think you mean to say they had. J. Aughenbaugh: Had. It has declined significantly this millennium, but otherwise, agricultural production is relatively unimportant, even though it has a really good climate, for agricultural production, it represents only 1.7% of its GDP. It's important to whom? N. Rodgers: To the locals. Yes, because when you are that far out in the middle of Nowhere Ville, meaning the Pacific Ocean, you cannot run to someplace close and pick stuff up. If you want and what I think is interesting is in your notes, you mentioned specifically beef. If you want beef, you are going to have to have your own beef locally because that is not a thing. You can't just run out and get a pound of hamburger at the next island over. It doesn't work that way. What I thought was interesting in your notes is not only do they provide the beef for themselves, but they provide it to Guam, Palau, and Micronesia. Which I was like, now that's interesting. They are the beef Island for the other Islands close to them. We mean close in the relative sense. J. Aughenbaugh: But you make a fair point. It is somewhat difficult to get there. N. Rodgers: I imagine importing things is enormously expensive. You'd want to grow at least some of what you can locally, if you can. Even though it's not a huge part of the GDP, I could understand why it's deeply important to them locally for variety in their diet. J. Aughenbaugh: To the indigenous population. Otherwise, like the other US territories, tourism is very important. N. Rodgers: Beautiful Islands. J. Aughenbaugh: Several hundred thousand visit every year. One of the peak years was in 1997, when they had over 700,000 visit the islands. But activities on the Northern Marianas, jungle hikes, golfing, really good diving, and they have a lot of historical sites related to prehistoric stones, settlements, etc. Which have been relatively preserved, not withstanding the various colonial efforts over the years. N. Rodgers: Nice. J. Aughenbaugh: They have really wide sandy beaches. Again, you mentioned this earlier. Tourists from the United States don't need a visa, but from other countries, you need a visa. You can stay. You can get a temporary visa where you're allowed to stay for 45-90 days. N. Rodgers: I'll just spend three months in the Northern Marianas. Tell me, that wouldn't be fabulous. J. Aughenbaugh: I can see a summer break in my future. N. Rodgers: Exactly. J. Aughenbaugh: One of the things I should note, and this is part of the reason why the Northern Marianas have had various political controversies. They've had issues with labor and in regards to the minimum wage on the Northern Marianas. As recently as 2007 the minimum wage on the Northern Marianas was $3.05 an hour. N. Rodgers: Which is less than half. J. Aughenbaugh: What it was on Marianas. N. Rodgers: But if you made something in the Northern Marianas, you're still making it in the United States. J. Aughenbaugh: States. That's right. N. Rodgers: That is shifty. J. Aughenbaugh: Garment workers, particularly not only in Mainland, United States, but in the Northern Marianas, were like, wait a minute, here. You are getting to claim that this is made in the United States. N. Rodgers: But you're essentially using sweatshop labor to do it? J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: That is not good. No Bueno. J. Aughenbaugh: Starting with the Bush 43 administration, we have seen a number of increases to the minimum wage. It first went up to $3.55 and President Obama in 2009 actually delayed the increase of the minimum wage but in 2018, during the Trump administration, the minimum wage finally reached $7.25, which at the time, you actually saw an equivalent to the mainland and the Northern Marianas was the same, but there has been numerous allegations about sweatshop exploitation, including child labor, child prostitution, and forced abortions because they didn't want, the female garment workers missing work to go ahead and have children. N. Rodgers: That's immoral, but that industry has mostly died now, hasn't it? In part because if it's no cheaper to do it there than it is to do it anywhere else, then why do it there? J. Aughenbaugh: Do it there. N. Rodgers: Because then you have to transport it back. J. Aughenbaugh: Back, yes. N. Rodgers: From a business standpoint, that doesn't seem like a wise. J. Aughenbaugh: The other issue for the Northern Marianas was immigration of Chinese migrant workers. Listeners, if you think about two of the industries that Nia and I are focused on in our discussion, garment and agriculture. Many native Northern Marianas were not all that interested in doing either. Particularly the younger populations. The Northern Marianas began to, I guess, recruit maybe too strong of a word, but they definitely allowed a large number of Chinese migrant workers to come in to be employed, particularly in the garment trade. N. Rodgers: Which they could do because they are a territory as opposed to a state. If they were a state, it would have been it would have been a federal issue, but because they were a territory. They could allow whomever. J. Aughenbaugh: Congress never got around to closing it. The Northern Marianas, shall we say, leveraged a decision of the World Trade Organization in 2005 that basically forced the United States to allow the Northern Marianas this increased migration of Chinese garment workers. N. Rodgers: But then it stopped in 2009 because Congress finally got around to saying, don't. J. Aughenbaugh: But it's pretty fascinating. N. Rodgers: If those people were allowed to migrate, they would have become American citizens. J. Aughenbaugh: But they are only allowed to migrate during peak garment production periods. N. Rodgers: If you're talking about ethnic groups, I'm assuming it's mostly mix of Asian and Pacific Islanders? J. Aughenbaugh: The largest ethnic group in the Northern Marianas is Filipino. N. Rodgers: That's interesting. J. Aughenbaugh: Thirty Five Percent. An ethnic group that was well represented on Guam, the Chamorros about 24%. Multi-racial, 12.7, Chinese reflecting, historical Chinese migration, 6.8. Then you have a wide mix of Hawaiian Pacific Islander, Korean, et cetera. N. Rodgers: Carolinian. J. Aughenbaugh: The dominant religion, as we've already discussed, is Catholicism. Because of the brief Japanese occupation of the islands, there is a sizable Buddhist community. You got Roman Catholics, about 64%, Protestants 16, Buddhist a little over ten. Then you have, again, a wide mix of Volkan native religions, other Christian forms, Eastern Orthodox, Hindu, Muslim, the Jewish faith, all less than 1%. N. Rodgers: There's like ten people. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. N. Rodgers: I mean, less than 1% of. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, and again. N. Rodgers: It's less than 470 people. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, listeners, you got to put this in context. If you're talking about 47,000 people 64% of them are Roman Catholics. There's not a lot of people left over for other religious faiths. N. Rodgers: Exactly. One of the things that is a habit if you've never lived in Utah, is that people who live in Utah will refer to the church. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. N. Rodgers: They mean the Mormon church. Correct. Because the population of Utah is I don't remember what it is, but it's something like 75 to 80% maybe even slightly more than that. I would be willing to bet that in the Mariana Islands, people say the church, and they mean the Catholic. J. Aughenbaugh: Catholic Church. N. Rodgers: Everybody knows what that's what they mean. J. Aughenbaugh: Likewise, Nia, in the small town that I grew up in Pennsylvania, at one point in my youth, there were five Catholic churches for a population of less than 30,000 people. N. Rodgers: Again, in your town, the Church, the Catholic church. J. Aughenbaugh: Church. Then you would get into a discussion of which Catholic church did you belong to. Those were frequently broken down by ethnic groups. The Polish Catholic Church, the Italian Catholic Church. But nevertheless. The Northern Marianas operates a public school system. They also have a number of private schools. Many of them are religious affiliated. They do have a college, which has been accredited, and they have a number of community colleges. Many of them are. N. Rodgers: They have a number of community colleges? J. Aughenbaugh: Well, they offer a number of programs that would be similar to US community colleges, and in Inia, most of these programs are professional degrees. N. Rodgers: You're going to be a nurse, you're going to be a mechanic, you're going to be a social worker. You're going to be. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, exactly. Which in many ways, is very smart on their part because that allows them not. N. Rodgers: To serve the population. J. Aughenbaugh: Population, that's right. N. Rodgers: They don't have to try to import. J. Aughenbaugh: That's right. N. Rodgers: If you can have your local nursing staff trained locally, I mean, that's a great thing. J. Aughenbaugh: In terms of culture, the dominant culture is the Native Chamorro culture. N. Rodgers: Really? It's not a Philippine. It's interesting. J. Aughenbaugh: In respect. N. Rodgers: You're welcome to come here, but you're going to have to take on our cultural ways. J. Aughenbaugh: This came up in a number of the sources that I consulted, respect is a very important part of the moral culture. They have this tradition, and I'm going to mispronounce this and I apologize. The man Genji, It's a tradition where involving an elder and a child, the child takes the hand of the elder, places it on the nose, and says, there's an expression. It's the idea of God help you. N. Rodgers: The child takes the elder's hand and puts it on their nose. The elder basically gives them a blessing. J. Aughenbaugh: Blessing. That's right. N. Rodgers: It's saying, I respect you and I respect your blessing. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: That's what the child is getting across there. Isn't that a common cultural? Or something similar to that in a lot of respect cultures. J. Aughenbaugh: Yes. N. Rodgers: You ask an elder for their blessing. You ask an elder to put their hand on you in some and then go with God or be with God? J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, and it emphasizes. N. Rodgers: God watch over you. J. Aughenbaugh: it emphasizes that you as a child, growing up to be something larger than yourself. You can't just focus on your own individual wants and needs. You have a responsibility to your elders, your family. N. Rodgers: Society. J. Aughenbaugh: Your community, which oftentimes gets lost in larger, shall we say, liberal Western cultures. N. Rodgers: Well, the benefit of the Marianas I would think, would be that let me back up and say, part of a difficulty in American culture is that multi generations do not live in the same place anymore. J. Aughenbaugh: Correct. N. Rodgers: People move away from their parents and then they have children, and so now grandparents are further away and all this stuff. Whereas if basically 47,000 of you are living in three or four cities, you're much more heavily exposed to your elders, to the elders in your family, to the multi-generational. You probably either live in the same house or very close to each other. I know that in Japanese culture, there's usually three or four generations living together, because you take care of your elders and your elders help take care of your children, there's this, I would think that would help you build cohesion and a depth of I am a cog in a larger system machine. J. Aughenbaugh: Operation system machine. N. Rodgers: In a good way. I am part of something that is greater than myself, that's neat. I like that. I could live with that, especially if I could buy an island. Although apparently, I cannot buy an island. I guess I can rent an island. J. Aughenbaugh: You can lease or rent, yes. N. Rodgers: I'd be okay with that. I'd be okay with leasing an island. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. I mean, you don't generate the tax benefits, but then again, you're probably just going there to retire. N. Rodgers: I'm not going to live forever anyway, and then it would just go back to the Mariana government. I'd be okay with that. J. Aughenbaugh: But anyway, learned a lot. Fascinating. N. Rodgers: These islands are all different. I know that sounds stupid. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to say it that way, but they all have their own culture and personality, this idea that we can lump all of the islands in the Pacific together, no. They have very different ways of being in. Some things are culturally consistent, right, in part because they're small and their populations are small and they're concentrated. But some things are very different and how they interact in the world. J. Aughenbaugh: To your point about the islands being different, the territories are different. N. Rodgers: I don't know why that surprises me. The states are different. What I don't know why. I'm like all the islands will be the same. No, it's just like Alabama versus New York. Might as well be in two different countries. J. Aughenbaugh: Because the territories get lumped into this generic territory category, they're just a territory. Well, they're not just a territory, beyond the issue of whether or not they should ever become states. N. Rodgers: Representative like all that other count geopolitical stuff. J. Aughenbaugh: The fact is, it is in many ways, a very ambiguous phrase or word to use when you go ahead and say, then we have the territories. Well, if you mind down a little deeper, it's like, this is not just a territory. This is a group of people with a rich history. N. Rodgers: Prehistoric history. J. Aughenbaugh: History, in many ways, have been able to keep their own identity, their old culture, their own folkways, notwithstanding the fact that you've had these colonial empires that have attempted to go ahead and make them their own. To me, that's fascinating. N. Rodgers: They were seen as savages and they've won. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah. N. Rodgers: Which I love 'cause they've managed to hold on to their culture and their ways and I'm excited to learn about Samoa. J. Aughenbaugh: Yeah, and that's going to be our next one, listeners, thanks, Nia. N. Rodgers: Thank you, Aggie. You've been listening to Civil Discourse brought to you by VCU Libraries. Opinions expressed are solely the speaker's own and do not reflect the views or opinions of VCU or VCU Libraries. Special thanks to the Workshop for technical assistance. Music by Isaak Hopson. Find more information at guides.library.vcu.edu/discourse. As always, no documents were harmed in the making of this podcast.