Welcome to another episode of Civic Cipher. I am your host, ramses Jah, and I want to send a big shout out to q Ward, who is not with us today.
He is.
Nursing himself back to health. All is well in his world. But we have something that I think is even more appropriate for today. As you know, this is our last episode of twenty twenty, a year that has affected pretty much all of us in one way or another and definitely one that we're all going to remember for the rest of our lives. For some it's changed us, you know, forever.
For some of us, it's made us very paranoid. For some of us, it's made us, you know, see the world through a different lens, or a few different lenses. But in order to mark this show, our last show of twenty twenty, I wanted to do a bit of a recap, just to kind of flesh out some of
the things that we may have learned. And it occurred to me that having a conversation with someone who perhaps doesn't live in the same space as me, a black man thirty eight years old watching the events of twenty twenty unfold around him, viewing the events of twenty twenty through someone else's lens, someone I consider to be an ally of black people and humans, you know, but black people. We've had conversations before, and I understand this man's heart.
I understand him to be a reasonable man, a thinker, not easily given to you know, paranoia and some of the things that a lot of folks have been very susceptible to this past year, with you know, an election really dividing the country very deeply in some parts of
the country, and self worth. I wanted to see what this year looked like through the lens of someone else, someone who's walked a different path, someone who may have drawn different conclusions and arrived at different outcomes, because there's still a little bit more learning left to do, and I would love to start off twenty twenty one just knowing what, if any progress we have made in terms
of growth as humans. And the best way to do that is to have a conversation with folks and find out how the world feels to them, and how how the events have felt to them, and and kind of examined their growth. And so today I'm joined by a friend of mine, Ian Basquez. How you doing, brother, good, good, good, Okay? And to be fair, Ian is it's sort of a neighbor of mine. You know, our kids play together and we've had a number of conversations. But I don't want
anyone to take this the wrong way. But this interview happened to come together because of your normal normalness is not the right way to say it. But but you don't hold an elected position. You're not a police officer. You're not, from what I understand, not an act of you know, these things that would really entrench you firmly into a specific belief system or anything like that. You're a person who has seen the events of the world unfold and a person who I believe has empathy and
kindness at the core of his being. Our children play together, and so I'm able to see Ian as a father interact with not only his son, but with my son. And my son obviously is black, and your son could very easily pass for white with.
The blonde hair and the light eyes and everything like this, and so.
You know, walking that path, I felt like you'd be perfect for this, just to kind of see some of the things that you may have learned.
Now.
I want to also get a little bit of a background on you. So my understanding is that you work in it consulting. Give me a little bit about out what that is and what your day to day is in the world.
Sure, Well, about seven years ago I started my own consulting practice. At first, I was, you know, on my own, and over the course of that time, I've hired a few employees and I now have a little niche consulting practice that I can kind of own and operate a few employees, and we help companies with cloud based solutions, you know, help them grow and basically implement technology that you know, might be a little bit tough for them to understand internally.
We help out with that.
But the thing that I thought was relevant is as a business owner, as someone who started a business himself and has grown it to now where you have employees. A disconnect, at least for me, is that I have a tended see to believe that those types of people are oftentimes only motivated by money, and they fail to consider the human implications or the human cost of their belief system, their their voting records, et cetera. And in my dealings with you, I've learned that.
I may have been.
Painting with broad strokes in terms of my opinions of folks who are business owners. Now, you know, I recognize that lots of people start businesses and everyone has to participate in and this capitalistic society. That's how you know, the money works. But to know that, you know, a person like you has achieved a degree of success, you have a degree of mobility from where I sit in
your life. To also know that there's a part of you that really will stop to consider what the world must feel like to other people who don't have the same mobility, it really allowed me to recognize that well, you know, most of us really understand and recognize that we're humans first, and you know, very few of us are able to get to the point where we're able to start our own businesses and you know, move around
like that. Even fewer still are able to carry experiences like you know, I always share my story on the show that you know, I was born in Compton, California, had a really rough upbringing, and you know, queue the same thing from Detroit. You know, grew up very poor in a city that's just crumbled all around him throughout
his life. Very few of us are able to take those type of experiences and the empathy and the understanding that the world is not always a kind place into a place where you're able to, you know, start a business and you know, function as a form of economic empowerment to people who might share those same views. I just thought it was really interesting to see the way that you have retained or maybe you never lost, that human element, like, well, I'm a man first, I'm a man.
I'm a man who loves his family.
I live in the same world with other folks, and I recognize that, you know, obviously there's people that are going to do better, there's people that are going to do worse. But I'm not going to go into this where, hey, this whole thing is about me, everyone else is on their own, because I think that you recognize on some level that it just doesn't work that way. And so I was always very appreciative of, you know, the depth
of the conversations that we were able to have. And so I appreciate you coming on this show and you know, helping out and sharing your insight and so.
Well, let me say that, yeah, thank you, Yeah, I appreciate the invitation. It's really an honor. As you know, I've mentioned you, I listened to a couple of your earlier shows, not all of that, but.
I just think it's a wonderful thing you're doing.
I'm really honored that you would have asked me to be here part of it, and I'm really honored by the comments that you made about.
You know, I don't know, just just being a decent human being.
I appreciate that, and coming from you, that really means a lot, because I think the same thing back at you.
Well, I appreciate that.
So you know, I know that this year has had a lot of crazy stuff happen in it, and I know that we're not going to get away from the fact that, you know, we've dealt with a pandemic for the majority of twenty twenty.
But I want to.
Start with perhaps the most pertinent question for this show on this platform. What is perhaps the foremost thing that you have learned or been made aware of with respect to black folks specifically and their plight in twenty twenty.
Great question.
I'm to be honest, having a hard time taking away and saying here's what I've learned, because I think what twenty twenty has made me.
Realize is you know, how little we know? You know and are.
How difficult it is to try to make sense of the world sometimes, But I've reflected a lot on it. It's just been so in everyone's face. I think I've just really reflected on the struggle that it must be a lot, and some of the conversations that we had, you know, late at night, as we like bumping into each other on the street. I think more so than
anything else, it's more like a feeling. Like lately, I've just been feeling more and I've been feeling the struggle amongst people of color, and feeling the struggle amongst people who are not of color, and the sense that from you know, the view from my front porch, I think your typical American really wants to bridge these gaps. You know, there's these wedges that seem to be dividing our communities, and I tend to believe that we would all do
away with those if, you know, if we could. And there seems to be some other elements that are really affecting our society, whether it be social media and some of the costic effect that that's been having, or the media in general, and you know, things being more polarized.
I really applaud you for what you're doing here, because I tend to think one of the challenges we're having is that a lot of what we hear on the news or radio are personalities that are inherently polarized, because that seems to get clicks or views or listens when you're having two people to stake it out really extreme positions that just seems to be what people are tuning in for lately.
But if you talk with.
You know, real regular everyday people, most times, most folks are pretty reasonable and you know, might fall down on
different sides of any particular issue. But your question about the black community, I think I think I go back to like really recognizing that if you haven't walked in somebody's shoes, you really only know your own experience, and you really have to be sensitive too when somebody else is telling you, look, this is how it's looking from my front porch, they really need to tune in and listen.
Sure. One of the things that has really shaped and really set the tone for twenty twenty is, of course, the I'm gonna I'm gonna call it what it is, the the public execution of George Floyd, the video that we were all able.
To see a man lose his life for.
If there was a crime committed, we don't even know that he was aware that, you know. I think that the issue was that he had a fake dollar and me having you know, I'm a DJ, so I've worked in businesses for cash businesses, so yeah, you end up with a fake dollar, you know, you don't know until you know, because I'm not trained it. But anyway, we saw this man lose his life and it very much deepened the divide between.
People.
You know, as you said, from my porch again a person that my earliest memories of the police were shaped by the LAPD. I was born in nineteen eighty two, so when the Rodney King riots were taking place, I kind of not kind of I very much understood that. At ten years old, I understood that. I'm like, well, yeah, the police are the ones that are The police have
never been the heroes in my story. And I understand that from someone else's porch, it looks like in gratitude, dude, you know, but you know, well, a lack of appreciation for the police. Police getting called to come out and help out a situation because the police, if the police show up, no one ever called the police. When we were little, if the police showed up that minute, it was time to leave, because the police were there to
do more harm. And so you know, when I hit fourth grade, fifth grade, this is by the time I moved to Arizona, and we had like the Dare program that the police would come in and they would give
out toys and candy. It was just a very, very different sort of police interaction than I was accustomed to, and it certainly didn't help bridge that divide, that disconnect that I felt with the police, because I had seen the police, like with these eyes, do harm to human beings, and I didn't understand what those people had done to the police. But I very very much remember what the police did to those people. One quick example that just comes to mind, and I've shared this on the show
before for those who listened every week. One thing that sticks out of my mind. This was the lapd again back in the eighties, but I remember the police pulling a man out of a car was a white car ininal was eighties, like big box cars. It pulled him out of the car and they set him on the ground next to the driver's side door, and then they took his head and they slammed his head into the We're at a red light, sitting there watching this happen. So I'm in the back seat looking out the window.
You know, little kids do that little thing. Yeah, And they slammed his head against the car, the door, the car door, and it dented the door of the car. And then the woman who was driving the car. My dad was in the front seat, and there was a woman driving the car. She took off speeding because she saw that the police were hurting that man, so that she was afraid of the police.
I saw what the.
Police were doing. We didn't see the man do anything. It was at a red light and the police, you know, pulled over whatever the case was. But I remember that happening. With that said again, the DARE program, these sorts of things became very very much the opposite of what I've known of the police to do. And so me interacting with the police was very much a tall order because you know, you were taught by them. You know, there wasn't no one came and said, hey, Ramas this listen.
The police is bad guy, you know. Yeah, but I recognize that again from my porch, it's a very different view.
And so well does that view I've always wondered, is it that you could see yourself being in that same situationally easily?
And the worst part about it is I was never able to see the why. It was almost like it just kind of happened at random. Ye Now, and now that I'm a little older and I can be fair, I do recognize that there is a tendency that's me being very generous, But there's a tendency for the police to be around the crimes or the criminals. That's not always the case sometimes, you know, I always say this in my personal life, if you're looking for something, you're
going to find it, even if it's not there. You know, I've been in relationships. You know, I'm not married, so this has happened to me a few times in my life. But I've been in relationships or you know, lady friends. We'll go through my phone and I'll say it, if you're looking for something, you're going to find it even if it's not there. Yeah, And so you know, a similar I have a similar idea when.
It comes to the police.
You know, if you're doing stop and frisk, which is a thing that has happened in New York.
Are you familiar with us a little bit? Okay, So for those.
Who are not Stopping frisk was a policy implemented in New York which basically gave the police license to stop black and brown kids, you know, Puerto Rican black kids and just you know, shake them down, see if they
had any drugs and he stolen good whatever. And it's a very dehumanizing and very racist thing to do to human beings, especially human beings were poor where there's no real economic you know, we could we could examine it all day, but just imagine if that was happening to you, if you how embarrassing and how humiliating that is for the police to pull you over.
Yeah.
I remember first reading about that in that Malcolm Gladwell book At the Tipping Point.
I think.
In that book he was talking about the broken windows theory. That the book is about tipping point, when do you get to a point that things start going in the direction that you either want or don't want? Right, And this broken windows idea is that when people see broken windows, they commit crimes. Right, Like, the environment that appears that laws and rules are not being followed can actually encourage
somebody to sure not follow rules and commit crimes. And so that's where they were kind of coming from, thinking, Okay, let's prosecute even small the smallest of crimes to reduce overall crime and reduce more major crime.
It's been a lot of.
It's possibly good intention, ever, you know, who knows, you know, you never know what's in somebody's heart. But folks have good intentions to try to do something, and then a lot of times it does not doesn't work out that work out that way, right, Yeah, it's a.
Very complicated society. And this is this is sort of where I was where I was going with that, you know, having this view of the world, and a lot of people, especially people of color, black and brown folks, share this view of the world. So when we see a person like George Floyd get executed in the street and it's in the middle of a pandemic where you know, we really don't have to go to work tomorrow, Yeah there's
nothing going on. Now is the time we can actually get out here and do something about this, and we do, you know, And and you know, I've taken my children out there just so that they understand that there is some solidarity there. You know, I may not be around for my children. You know, I lost my father a few years ago, and you know, even at thirty five, when I had to bury my dad, I recognize that
I still needed him, you know. And you know, the beginning of this year really taught me something when Kobe's.
Helicopter fell out of the sky.
Yeah, that you know, tomorrow's really not promised, you know, And so I wanted to make sure that I give as many of the lessons to my children as I possibly can, and even at you know, and you know, my my youngest son, he's he was five at the time, just turned six, and you know, recognize I may not be there for them forever. It was it felt like it was very important for me to be out on the streets with them, showing them that hey, you no
matter you're you're a cute kid right now. But you know, if the right person takes a look at you, you're a black man. So you know, that's and that's something that we talk about a lot. Is a lot of times.
Uh did you talk to them about the George Floyda.
Over and over again. Yeah.
But at the point I was making is that the porch, this this porch, I love that analogy.
But this porch.
You know, we look at the police and we see these things, and these things very much match the patterns that we've established over the course of our lives.
But to other folks, we will.
Call them the specifically the Blue Lives Matter folks, the the counter protesters, the people that wave the flags, that feel like the police need need support, and so forth.
I get it that their view of what's happening it looks like in gratitude, and it looks like there's this very I hate you keep using this word, but disconnected and I think that's what we're talking about her, this disconnected, cavalier sort of attitude or or this idea that well, naturally those people would feel that way about the system
when they are on the opposite side of the system. Yea, And so to us, you know, we can launch a full frontal attack on the police, if you will, in a manner of speaking, not not the humans, but the system. You know, there's something that's been said that I've learned this past year, and that's that the system is doing exactly what it's what it was created to do. So there's nothing wrong with the system. It's not broken it's
doing what it was meant to do. And there's this idea that if we change the system, then we can change the way laws are handed down, the way sentencing is handed down, the way policing is done, and law enforcement is done, and it doesn't require human beings to be executed in the street. There's a basic belief system that even if a person is guilty of a crime, that they should be able to state their case and
they should have the opportunity to be rehabilitated. And then there's some people that take it further, of course, that prisons do not really lead to rehabilitation of criminals and so forth. And the money is being spent in such a way that people profit from it, and it's become an economic institution and it's become the norm. And people are very upset when you try to change the norm, because for the people that it works for, it seems fine.
And when you come with a radical idea like you know, well, Black Lives Matter is radical to some folks, but not to everyone. But something that's been radical to even more people is this idea that you should defund the police. When you come with an idea like let's defund the police.
Then those people who benefit or they don't experience the negative parts of policing and police interaction or the criminal justice system, it hasn't affected their lives in the same way that it's affected so many black and brown folks disproportionately. Then those people have a tendency to say, well, you know,
let's defend the police. And if you come and you say, well, you know, black lives matter, because historically this country has treated black lives as though they don't matter, and therefore this statement needs to be said expressly said, black lives matter.
We need to chant it, We need to hit the streets and say this so that people know, so that it's burned into the consciousness of this country, so that it's burned into the seared into the consciousness of the people who are responsible for enforcing laws and passing down punishment, that these lives are important, These are these are human beings, in doubt that the same consciousness from the same creator
black lives matter. But those people to then be challenged with a statement like blue lives matter, when historically that has never been in question. The police have never the police, there's never been a question. Police have not been they've they've not done medical experiments on the police to see what effects it would have on people. The police have not been you know, stripped of their name and their
and their history. They've not been raped and and uh, you know, robbed and and and redlined into you know, certain neighborhoods and denied economic opportunities and denied political representation, have their communities terrorized, and you know, all the crimes of this country to black people. Police and lives have asked me, but there are some black police officers. Absolutely absolutely.
That's why I said, not the people, a system, the system, but historically because police and lives have never really been into question, and black lives obviously have. There's there's very much a well documented history with this country and how they treat black folks. It feels particularly or it has felt particularly offensive this past year to meet people with those flags and then there's a blue strip on the flag.
For me, rams is the individual, especially because I know that you're not supposed to change the colors of the flag. And so these people who are so patriotic, and these people who are so you know, USA, USA, you know America first, those folks they tend to be Trump votes, you know, with the flags hanging from their trucks and you know that sort of thing.
They're not aware that you're not.
Supposed to change the colors of the flags. And so this is kind of what I've had to encounter, especially walking this path where I have to address a full city of people, you know this This show is carried on just to name a few stations, ninety eight point three Power and ninety three nine, which is an alternative station, and in South Phoenix there's one O two seven that carries the.
Show as well.
But there's a very diverse group of people. Obviously black folks and brown folks listen to the show, but more allies. And there are some folks who will disagree with everything that I say, but they tune in because they need to understand what it's like on this side in order to formulate an argument to disagree.
And so I've had to be.
Very mindful of how I frame this, this narrative in these conversations on this show.
Well, can I ask you a questions? All right?
Because I'm one hundred percent with you, Although I wonder how can one say black lives matter and I support the police, you know, I don't support the actions of the bad actions of the police, but I support the police and their ongoing effort to reform and be the best that they can. That we need firemen, we need teachers, we need police. How can one strike that balance in the modern age? That's a great question.
And before I say anything, I will say that I can only speak as Rams as an individual who has walked through life.
Sure, a lot of folks will look.
At me and say, well, you're on the radio, or you're on TV, or you're on this or that or the other, and so you must know better than everyone else. And that's never the case for anyone. You know, it could be the highest I mean, we've seen the President of the United States try to guess the cure for coronavirus during the press conference. Yeah, so, you know, just because a person that has, you know, a platform, doesn't mean they know all the answers. But the person Ramses will certainly share.
My thinking is.
That obviously, to say black lives matter is to say a mouthful, because there are some people who are gonna roll their eyes and say, oh my god, here we go again.
You know, hear these black people.
They want to whatever and they're they're clearly the criminals. Why are they you know? And they have this again disconnected.
Reality.
You know that they live in a whole different world where the police represent something entirely different. The police are there to protect you. Again, for a person like me, historically, the police. I've never called the police in my life. I don't think I.
Ever would, you know, why would I do that? You know, you know, you know.
But to say that you support the police is to say that. I think it's it's it's a way of admitting that the police. And I know this might not be true, but hear me out. Let me start here. Then, to say I support black people, I think that that's to say that In saying that, what you're saying is that there is a there's something that's not one hundred percent there, and they require support and I stand with them. I understand their plight or I see some of the optics.
And when I can, in a conversation or in a public manner or whatever, when I can offer support to their plight or mention their cause or whatever, I.
Will do so.
And support is something that is like the gay community, you know what I mean, they have issues with respect to representation, discrimination, et cetera. And therefore their journey requires and that requires as a strong word, but requires support, you know, or it could use support. If you were to lend support to it, then it would benefit them
and would help them on their plight. Yes, you know, breast cancer, you know, like these sorts of things where people are kind of at a disadvantage, or they're starting a little bit behind, you know, you know, they didn't get the same sort of you know, whatever, they have resources, et cetera. To say I support the police would be to suggest in a similar manner that.
The police are.
Lacking in some way, the police are discriminated against the police, are you know, something like that. They're they're having some sort of hardship and they require our support. And for me, as I stated the system, not the human beings, but the system, it is understood that the system is doing exactly what it was designed to do. The word patrol comes from slave patrol. It was designed to search for
runaway slaves. And so when I hear patrol car or you know, patrol officer, these sorts of things, there's there's the lineage is right there in the word that's that's something you know, to those listening, Google is free. You're are the welcome to look that up, you know, but you can see that, you know, policing obviously has been around a lot longer than slavery. But patrolling is something that has come about, at least in this country in the way that we understand it.
It originated with slave patrols.
And as a way of separating, you know, people and keeping people.
Protecting wealth.
And if you don't know what I'm talking about, again, google breadlining, watch any video and you'll you'll understand why ghettos exist, Why you know, ghettos are more heavily patrolled, and and and so forth. You'll understand, you know, if you want to go all the way down that rabbit hole. These are things. These are matters of public record. These are not conspiracy theories or anything. These are things that
the government has admitted to. You can find out exactly how drugs destroyed the black community and that the government was behind that, and the police helped that in the FBI and so forth, and these communities, black communities and brown communities were destroyed over and over again by those things.
And then mass incarceration, where you know, you take those people who obviously have an entrepreneurial spirit, use the only means of economic empowerment available to them that was given to them.
By the government.
Yeah, and then in prison for it at much longer sentences than you know. They're white counterparts who did the same sorts of crimes and so forth. So you know, back to your question, I think that the way that I would say that for me, this is not for you, and this is not for a lot of.
People, but for me, it starts with what I said, defund the police.
The reason I say that, and I say that knowing that it's an alarming thing to say, but it's not. I'm not saying abolish the police. There are some people who say that, I'm not saying. I disagree with those people, but I understand what they're saying. They're saying something that's alarming so that people will look behind or look at what they're saying and examine it critically. Everyone on some level knows that we need institutions that protect us from criminals.
The criminals will exist. They come in every color, they come from every background. That's just a fact of life. But what we have right now does not work for everyone.
And so when a person says, defund the police, or in this case, when I'm saying defund the police, what I mean is I'm saying, let's examine what policing is like, not on a whole, because obviously the police will be able to stand up and say, well, we get out there and we fight through, we have a tough job, and you know, we put our lives on the line,
and all those things are true. But beyond the glitz and the polish, we recognize that will overwhelmingly and disproportionately this has a negative effect on these specific communities and not so much on this community. And when we look at defunding the police, what we're really looking at is, well, how can we best support a society where everyone has is able to benefit from it.
How can we The police's.
Objective is to minimize crime. I think that's pretty much what everyone would say.
Yes, well, I think we would say that the community's idea, Well, it's what I would.
Say, you know, let's let's minimize crime. I know we can't eliminate it, but let's minimize crime, So I'll say it.
That's what we would I think we would say that the societal agreement is right but but in practice there's been.
Different different definitions of.
Course, of course, but for for this one, I'll say it so that you don't have to because, okay, so the police objective is to minimize crime. Well, by defunding the police and reallocating the fiscal resources into programs that will attack the root of the problem, what we can do is minimize crime.
Here's a question I have for you, though, sure, especially in this era where we are deficit spending out the wazoo. You know, we're just we're just printing money right now as a country to spend money for those other social programs. Why does it have to come out of the pocket.
Of the police.
Well, there's a that's another great question. What we've seen in the past, since the we'll call it the mid nineties, is the militarization of the police.
Of the United States of America.
Yeah, this is why when the police show up when I'm walking with my five year old's hand in my hand and my fourteen year old his hand in my hand, and we are protesting the murder of Breonna Taylor while she was sleeping in her bed, the police standing on the sides of the road, you know, lining our path on this protest looked like they're ready for war, as opposed to this image that they tried to teach me during the DARE program of your friendly neighborhood police officer.
Completely unnecessary, you know, for them to have three and four murder weapons on their person. There was a chance that that people were shouting, which I love and I'll carry it with me forever. The chant goes, there's no riot here, Why are you and riot gear? There's no riot here? Why are you and riot gear? And forgive me for being emotional, but it really I think that it really speaks to this idea that.
They think.
It's fear based. And I know that, and I know that they're people, and people are susceptible to fear, and that's the unfortunate thing. But they have weapons, and they have all this stuff, you know, and we're I'm there with children. One of my sons has spina biffity, the other one is six. We can't run, We can't even outrun you, you know what I mean. That's why I'm not going to leave my babies here. You know, So what what is this for?
Are you?
Are you trying to intimidate my children like you know, we're here because someone dies and we need to change the system, and you're here defending it with all of this kit.
Add to that.
Tanks, uh, you know, all the all the machinery that was decommissioned after the Gulf War and Desert Storm and all that stuff. A lot of that was able to be repurposed and purchased by you know, local municipalities for their their police departments. Yeah, and you know there's there's people who have to sell that stuff, repurpose it. And how do you sell something like that to a city like Phoenix, where if we need there's a national guard, you know, but the you know, so you sell them fear,
you know. And and the police are people just like anyone else. There's a person that makes a decision that says, well, you know what, if bad turns the worse, we better have this. And you know, and there's this this mentality that you know, we need to protect ourselves from them, as opposed to we need to protect them.
Yeah and so.
And you know, I'm not an expert on this, of course, but I couldn't agree more that we should demilitarize the police. Sure, And I think there's these community I've been just reading and hearing about a little bit like community based policing initiatives, where we want to try to get police officers actually live in the communities that they police, you know, have a house because this kind of thing.
It's a lot harder.
To dehumanize somebody if you're actually living amongst them, you know, if you see each other exactly exactly.
Yeah.
So you know, I couldn't agree with you more on all those reforms, and I couldn't agree with you more when you talk about fear. But I think that's driving both sides, you know, I think so. One of my good friends, one of my employees, is married to a police officer. I have a number of friends that are police officers. You know, they hear defund and and it's natural that someone's like, well, you know, the police Demartment's my livelihood, and you know, that's my pension, that's my
you know, that's where I go to work. And I'm you know, people would think I'm a good person. You know, I'm in it for the right reasons as a police officer, and I'm friends with some of these folks.
And it's hard because I I.
Understand why when when that's the leading point, the defund the police as the slogan. It's a hard one, you know, because it also I don't think people like admitting that they're being made to feel afraid. I don't know why, you know, nobody's we feel afraid. We act, we have a lot of certainly reactions from when we're afraid, but we don't like admitting it, you know. But that I think that's uh, you hit.
It exactly, that.
That slogan strikes fear into the heart of a lot of other folks, and that's where we're you know, struggling to unite.
So my thoughts, again, we're looking back on twenty twenty, my thoughts are, yeah, you know, I I have I wouldn't say I'm like, well, I will say I'm a pretty shrewd negotiator. Okay, But you don't have to be a shrewd negotiator to understand this. I think everyone understands this on some level. If I have a car that I want to sell, and I want nine thousand dollars for the car, I'll list the car for ten thousand dollars. Yeah, okay,
someone else will offer me eight thousand dollars. I'll counter offer with nine thousand dollars, they'll agree, we'll shake hands, and I sell the car for nine thousand dollars. But on some level they may or may not. But I'm for this example, they may know that I probably have some mo room because it's such an expensive it's such a tall order, ten thousand dollars, it's so much money,
So he might have some wiggle room there. And on some order, on some level, I know that if they're offering me eight thousand dollars, but they're looking at this car, that they're prepared to spend perhaps a little bit more. They just want to save as much of this money as they can, Okay, And so this tall order becomes a starting point. And so to take that and to apply to what we're talking about here, this idea of defund the police is really a place to get us
to look at how policing is done critically. Let's look at it like it's not working. Let's all look at it like it's not working for everyone. Yeah, okay, Because if you look at it like it's working for everyone, then of course defund what.
Are you talking about. Let's get them more money.
Let's give them all of our money, you know, why not you know, yeah, I'm not My house has you know, not been burglarized, So let's give them all the money we can.
And that's the view from that porch. I love that example. Thank you.
I'm going to use that. I can't claim ownership, but I can't claim usage of its fine. It's been introduced to me today. So I'll tell you yea, if I take anything else from twenty twenty.
It'll be that.
But you know, for the police to say, well, you know, you know, we can't do that, or we don't want to do that, or that, what about my pension or this is what I've committed my ad to or whatever, you know, then at least we're having now a back and forth, Well, why do you want to defund the police? Well, because the police are not ever going to be able to respond to these types of incidents. For these type of incidents, no one should show up with a you know, there was a I foresee that.
That's why I think it's become commonplace to make a statement like that the police are never.
Going to be able to do this. Yeah I know, but I'm I'm just saying that.
That's like they I think I think those types of Okay, so you might not say that to a police officer. We just said that here. But people are just like you're a shrewd negotiator. People are like very subconsciously good at picking up on sentiment, you know, or an idea. And I think, I think if that's the idea that you know, the police are incapable of being reformed as an institution, not as individuals.
Right.
I know that you've clarified that a number of times. One of the challenges is institutions are made up of individuals.
You know, and.
We need to stop anyone who says the black community is just never gonna what fill in the blank.
You can't say something like that.
That's human beings they're capable of, you know, you can't you can't label folks.
Let me let me offer this.
Yeah, and I'm sure that many of the many police officers will admit they have a very tough job.
They have a lot of things that they have to be prepared for. They have a lot of.
Things that they have to be able to respond to. Oftentimes they don't know what it is that they're going to respond to. But before anything else, above all else. It's like in the military, you're a basic rifleman before anything. You can be a military photographer, but they will teach you how to shoot that gun before anything else. You are a crime fighter, right, will teach you how to shoot that gun.
Right.
So in rethinking how policing is done from the beginning, what you do is you recognize those self admitted complaints. You know, the police officer, you can you can check it out. You know, if you're listening to my voice, you can check this out, which, by the way, if you're just dotting in a civic cipher. My guest today is Ian Basquez, and we're talking that we're recapping twenty twenty.
Of course i'my host Rams's job. But anyway, you know, if we're asking these folks to do all of these things and do them well and never make a mistake, and we see that there's this this story is littered with mistakes, and then you see the corruption come in a play where they try to cover up the mistakes. I saw a video on the other day where a police officer was bragging. I could show it to you, you know when we're off the air. But police officer
was bragging. He was in Boston, he was bragging to one of his other officers about how he had run his car into some of the protesters and the and the officer pushed him away and covered up his body.
Cameras like, oh, the camera's on. And then and then.
He goes back and he's like, oh, yeah, well, you know, I didn't actually run anyone over. And then somehow, somehow the video got released, and you know, you can see that, and there's plenty of examples of this, and obviously there's
well documented examples, but there's also this this. You know, they really watch each other's back, you know that that that the blue line really protects itself, you know, and this is how you can kind of paint them with broad strokes because you know, like with any other job, if there's one person who's bringing down the whole team, that person gets fired. Everyone you know does it well.
And that's one of the things that I've you talked about twenty twenty like lessons learned, so to speak. It's it's really hit home for me that that is every human institution. So every human institution will circle the wagons to protect itself, whether it be the Catholic Church or the police on harmon fire, department, you know, local government, and it's tough, but we have to when there.
Is an opportunity to call it out, to change it, to reform it, and when it is a matter of life and death, when it has existed in one form or another for hundreds of years oppressing one type of person or one type of human specifically, when it it's time.
Has run its course, which a lot of folks.
Recognized was the Civil Rights movement, a lot of folks recognized was the Black Lives Matter movement when that started in twenty twelve, and a lot of folks were, you know, mobilized upon the death of George Floyd. And maybe there's another thing in the future. Maybe this is kind of you know, the tipping point after you know, the election, and you know, when this new administration takes office, we'll
see what happens there. But if we can change something, then I think it is incumbent upon us to try to do so. And then we moved to the next thing and the next thing, because obviously no one wants any of these horrible things to happen to anyone. But for those of us who are Americans, you know, a person like me born in California, that's just as America as Virginia, and you know, South Dakota and you know
all those other places considers themselves American. You know, I watched these American movies and you know at the end, when you know the flags flying high, that sense of pride. You know, my father was in the Air Force. You know, you know, I'm just as American as anyone else.
You know.
Yeah, to then see the flag sort of repurposed to represent what I believe to be the worst ideas, just one part of American divisive, you know, And I see the flag and now it strikes fear. It's like, oh man, this is a wrong street. I shouldn't be here.
You know.
That lets me know that you.
Know, there's a there's a very very there's two different Americas. You know, maybe more, but really there's two that I'm seeing. And you know, you said it best at the beginning of this conversation, And what needs to happen is we really need to sit down and have a conversation. And so to to finish what I was saying is, you know these tall orders.
Who knows if.
We'll ever see police fully defunded to the degree where other social programs are implemented, and housing, you know, is addressed, and and economic disadvantages are are addressed, and and and so forth and so on, and there's after school programs, and there's you know, support systems in place to kind of change communities, and you know, they're they're given time to heal and to to rebound, and we'll put together a twenty year program to see how well it works.
And this, you know, this sort of thing, and that money come from the oppressors, the quote unquote oppressors to where they are, their ability to oppress is limited, and their ability to thrive is increased.
You know. Yeah, I just I think, don't forget that.
I think some of these folks themselves can be victimized by the system that I know. That might be like hard Tobly, but someone might go into the police and say, you know, I really want to do good, and then you come into the institution and what you find is the institution changes you more than you change.
I want to, I want to. I want to cite an example. I haven't been able to share this yet. But I'm a person who leads with love. I'm a human first above all else. But I also live in the real world and I deal with all the things that come with that.
And so.
There's a police officer I know. His name is Kevin Gilliland, uh, and he's not my best friend. So what I'm gonna say hopefully doesn't get him in trouble with his fellow officers. I know there's probably police listen that will know who I'm talking about. He's a sheriff's officer, excellent human being,
excellent human being, a good man. I've been able to work with him a few times over the years, and he's the person that I have in mind every time I speak about the police, because I know that he is a human be has five kids, he is married, he's a good man. I used to work at a different radio station and he used to tune in and
listen to me. When I had a chance, I would give him tickets so he could take his daughter to concerts and things like the police officer, you know, And we were able to work some events together, just kind of coincidentally, and he would talk to me about some
of the things that he saw. He would ask me questions much in the same way that you would ask questions, not because he thought of me as some wise person because I don't profess to be, but because he considered me a person that he could talk to like.
A friend or a neighbor.
And in those conversations, I was able to learn who he was. And all throughout twenty twenty, at least for me, when all of these things started to come out into the forefront again, because you know, you got to remember, police killings have been happening in twenty twelve is when they started Black Lives Matter, because there were so many police.
Killings before that for the year leading up to it.
Yeah, and so you know, and then obviously it's just been recorded. This has always been the story, at least for black folks. But I recognize that you can be a good man and be a part of a system that is not perfect. And when it comes time to challenge an imperfect system, it in order to ensure it's survival, it will resist that, you know. And the one thing that I learned in my lifetime is that a person is smart.
A person is brilliant.
You know, we're the smartest things in the universe that we know of, but people are just about the dumbest things in people are dumb. A person is smart people are dumb in mass you know. And you know, there's this such thing as a mob mentality group into you know, these sorts of things where you know, Democrats don't have it all right, Yeah, but I vote Democrat every time.
Republicans don't have it all right. But some people who would believe one thing, that there's one thing that the Republican Party stands on and that's their thing, they have to vote Republican, even though the rest of that completely flies in the face of what they actually believe.
Yeah, it's funny though, and I guess it depends on how you look at it. If you're on a trivia show, you know, remember that Who Wants to Be a Millionaire show that the number one way to get the question right was pulled the audience, you know. Yeah, that worked way more than reducing the other options and taking a good guess and all that other stuff. So people in like I always say, this human being is creation's most
beautiful and most ugly creature. You know, we do some of the most amazing, artistic, beautiful things, and we do some of the ugliest tacks. And it's hard to reconcile the fact that we are both of those things all in one package.
Well, we're just going to have to figure out a way to do it. But I think that we can and if twenty twenty has taught us anything, that I think is that we can learn and we can grow. But that's about all the time that we have for today's episode. Thank you Ian Basquez for sitting with me on Civic Cipher. Once again, I'm your host, Ramsy's job and if you want to support the show, please visit
civiccipher dot com. You can donate, you can submit questions and topics, and of course follow all of our social media and we will check you out next week, same time, same channel, right here on Civic Cipher. Until then, take care of yourselves.