Civic Cipher 031922 The U.S. Gun Problem - podcast episode cover

Civic Cipher 031922 The U.S. Gun Problem

Mar 19, 202234 min
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The second part of the show is where we discuss the idea that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. We discuss the gun problem in this country and why/how we should rethink what policing means. Our Way Black History Fact discusses the Floating Freedom School from 1847.

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Transcript

Speaker 1

And now.

Speaker 2

Watching my back like that.

Speaker 3

Strike Waters headquarters behind and the BIS.

Speaker 1

In the borders.

Speaker 2

We're just tuning in the civic secern I'm your host, Rams' job.

Speaker 1

I'll go by the name Q War Thursday through Sunday, sometimes my Monday.

Speaker 2

This indeed, we should stick around. We got a lot more coming away and fruiting conversation about guns. This time we're about overdue for a conversation about guns. For those listening to the show, you know that Q is I wouldn't call you a fan of guns, but you're certainly if you understand their place in society a little bit more than I do. I'm not a big fan of guns at all. And we have to tell a story

because it's relevant. We're also going to spend a little time talking about the Floating Freedom School that is going to be our way black history fact, and I promise you want to stick on stick around for that because it's just a neat little way that a man was able to circumvent the law and educate black students at a time when black people were not allowed to be educated. But first, let's discuss how to become a better ally.

So this comes from NPR, A new musical, inspired by a satirical afro futurist novel called Black No More, opens off Broadway. It was presented by the New Group. Set during the Depression, both the book and the musical examine race in America with an outrageous plot device. An inventor comes up with the machines, a machine that turns black people white. In a dappursuit to wreak, Trotter aka Black Thought of the Roots here center stage to set the scene.

Sitting in a barbershop chair, he wraps, this is Harlem, the big apples core seventy or more years before there were any Apple stores. I wish I could heard him say that, because that's an adult rolling off his incredible yeah man off his voice. So Trotter wrote the lyrics so much of the music, which ranges from hip hop to R and B to jazz and folk, and he plays doctor Junius crookman, inventor of the Black No More machine, which will turn any black person white for fifty dollars.

Trotter says, the doctor believes this Black No More device is the solution to race relations to America. I think the line is to solve American race problem. As we know it. But yeah, you know, I don't think a solution is ever reached. And that is the twilight Zone like premise of Black No More, which features a script

by Academy Award winner John Ridley. In nineteen thirty one novel by George Schuler has they take no prisoner's attitude toward not just why supremacist and politicians, but then the veiled figures from the Harlem Renaissance. It goes on to say, of course, particularly when they're black, making fun of black people. The challenge for the creative team, especially the writers, was to move the story from broad satire to something with a beating heart. And I think what they've come up

with is a really fascinating morality tale. So become a better ally. Why not check out this musical based on the novel Black No More at your earliest convenience?

Speaker 1

How long is it off Broadway?

Speaker 2

That I don't know, but again Google is let's.

Speaker 1

Find let's find out and go see it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, let's go see it. Be better to see it than just read about it. But yeah, and I don't get to those very often, so yeah, we should do that, and you should see it too, if you're listening to us, So yeah, now, let's move on. Sorry. Comes from yahoo dot com. Colorado police officer who fairly shot a bystanders held a hero for stopping a gunman armed with a rifle,

will not be charged, prosecutor said Monday right. The officer, whose identity has not been made public, had objectively reasonable grounds to believe the officer and others faced imminent danger when the officer opened fire June twenty first in Arvada, north of Denver, killing a bystander, John Hurley, forty years old.

First Judicial District Attorney Alexis King told reporters quote, officers saw that day a mass shooter, heard many rounds of gunfire, and broad daylight in the heart of old Town, Arvada. King said, he continues, Thus, the officer's decision to shoot John Hurley was legally justified, despite his heroic actions that day.

In other words, there was a man who was in the middle of a mass shooting, right, and there was another man, this man Hurley, who saw this happening, had a gun and engaged the mass.

Speaker 1

Shooter, killing him.

Speaker 2

Then the police show up and they kill Hurley. That's basically I'll read the rest of the story, but just so you can follow it, but they killed Hurley thinking he was the mass shooter when he had already shot the masshooter.

Speaker 1

Go ahead, you the mass shooter. Amongst the mass shooters victims hmm are the police officer Gordon Beasley. So imagine this story as Ramsy's just told you. Mass shooter murders police officer. Law abiding citizen who's a gun owner kills mass shooter who also murdered a police officer. Then the police kill him.

Speaker 2

I don't mean to laugh, but the irony slaps you in the face. And here's the thing. There's been this narrative, this entirely unfounded narrative. No, I can't say that. I have to be fair. There have been instances where a person was acting crazy, another person had a gun, they shot that person, and perhaps some lives were saved. Right,

so I will be fair. I will see that. But this narrative that that exists largely I won't say on the right, but largely with gun owners, is that the only thing that will stop a good guy with or the only thing I will stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, right, which in this case was true. Until the good guy with

the gun got shot too. And I'm not here to pick apart that argument, but I am here to say, you know, maybe there's a gun problem, and maybe these overly simplistic solutions that people keep trying to offer for they're not realistic right now on this show. I I don't want to say we because Q is a different man and he's got different opinions, But I ramses who has been to New Zealand, who has been to you know places, you know, Hong Kong, and you know Q's

been in all these places too. But I've been to some different places and Q's been in some different places. But I've seen places where they don't have gun violence and guns are just as legal. It's a part of their freedoms, right. And then there's places where there's no guns. It is not a part of their freedoms. But that means nobody has any guns, not the police, not the you know, they don't have a Second Amendment as it were.

But there are places where you are allowed to have a gun, and the police are allowed to have guns too, and they don't carry it with them. Like the assumption isn't like, well, what if something happens. You know what, if I need to end someone's life today, you know, the assumption is if I need a gun, it will be close by. But my day to day activities don't require that. So I'm not going to live in fear in that way. If I need a gun, I'll go

get it out of the trunk of my car. Right, And so there's that pause, Do I really need to end this person's life? Because if I do, I need to go to the trunk, get it and then come back and then in this person's life. Right. And I understand that, you know, sometimes you have to make split second decisions and in this country, you know, blah blah blah. But the point is not that Ramses has the solutions.

The point is that that narrative, you know that that the only thing that can stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun, That narrative that you know, we need more guns, not less. Remember there were a few years or a couple of years ago that we were talking about getting teachers guns and school in schools.

Speaker 1

And that was the problem.

Speaker 2

Yeah, you know what I mean. And then, of course, because police have guns, the narrative that police need guns right, so that they can save lives and they can you know, stop the bad guys or whatever. I feel like police can do all those things without guns, you know, or the vast majority of them. And you know, we've gotten really comfortable in this country with the idea of qualified immunity, that there is just some collateral damage. Some people gotta

die in order for police to do their job. Some innocent people just got to die in order for police to do their job. And they're, oh, sorry, and they call this guy Hurley, they call him a hero for stepping in and stopping the gunmen. And of course it was an accident. It didn't mean to die. And then guess what, nothing changes, The same thing can happen tomorrow.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

Qualified immunity means that even though this was an accident, this officer will not be charged because he didn't know any better.

Speaker 1

Right.

Speaker 2

And I'm not here to debate whether or not that's right or wrong. I am here to say that we've been talking about these things, you know, police have there's been a culture, certainly the culture that we've seen on the videos. You know, I'm not talking about your uncle who's an officer, whoever you are listening I'm not talking about this person. I'm talking about a culture overall where police can hide behind the idea of fear many times, where ready fire aim is a justifiable course of action.

Life is worth so little, especially black life, It's worth so little, and then there's no accountability behind it. And that's the part that hurts the most. You know, people talk about all kinds of you know, what are black people doing about Chicago, you know, and the murder rate there? What are black people doing about this and that and the other thing? You know, Yeah, you know, something happens there.

There's the possibility that you could potentially get justice for the wrongful that if some person on the street goes and takes the life of your child, there's the potential for there to be justice there. A police officer does it, and they can it doesn't have to it can be on video. The police officer does it because of qualified immunity because they had a gun at the ready. There's no justice in that. It just died and that's the cost of doing business. And everyone seems to be okay

with that. Go ahead to I.

Speaker 1

Want to be clear in those cases, there's not the possibility of justice when the evidence of the wrong duel is so clear, right, because that sounds like kind of vague and kind of no. If the person that murdered the other person is on video and that video was legally obtained, which is another really really weird part of American freedom. We can watch you murder somebody on video, but if the video wasn't attained, right, you're still going

home with no punishment. The criminal justice system and its flaws, that's one of the many however, in most cases, especially if the gunment is black. When you talk about this black on black crime since we brought up Chicago, if the people know who committed the crime and it can be proven, that person's going to jail unless they're a police officer. And that's what Rams is talking about. Yeah, so it's a very face of obvious and compelling evidence.

This person's going to prison unless they're a police officer.

Speaker 2

And it's that it's in that space that you find what your life is worth to the country, to the to the society in which you live, right, And that's where the affirmations black lives, and that's where those things come into play. It's not to say that we don't have our own problems.

Speaker 1

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2

I think that it's something like eighty percent of crime's done or I won't even say the number. But the majority of crime committed to white folks is by white folks, just like the majority of crime committed to black folks by black folks. Because guess what, that's who you live by, right, But no one talks about white on white crime or tries to use it as a way to, you know, change the subject on white people, you know, because it's Hispanic or anyone.

Speaker 1

It's based on proximity, not skin color. Like that's just the very obvious fact of it. Yeah, and that story rams, it's I hate to say, it gets worse, but you're reading what the district attorney says here. Had he survived, we would have praised his bravery and engaging a mass shooter before anyone else was killed. He acted to defend others. We will remember him for his selflessness. This is the part that kind of shook me.

Speaker 2

Okay.

Speaker 1

The victim's mother, Wow, she prayed that no one else would have to face the kind of situation her son did. And her words, as we pull ourselves together to move forward in life, consider using Johnny's commitment to doing the right thing, even at the greatest cost. To inspire your own actions, this mother has to speak in a forgiving tone. She encouraging others to do the same thing her son did, even though it resulted in him being murdered by the very people he was trying to protect.

Speaker 2

Now, watch this, I'm not going to be foolish here. If there is a mass shooter, what is it that Ramses wants. It's a fair question. Ramses wants the police to show up with guns and take out the mass shooter.

Speaker 3

Right.

Speaker 2

It is urgent, it is happening right now. We need to do this before innocent, more innocent people lose their lives. Right absolutely, I'm with you one hundred percent. Because Rams is saying police shouldn't have guns. Yeah, I'll always say that ultimately that's what we want, But in the immediate future, I realized that's not realistic because there's a lot of guns out here, right, So I get it, I understand.

But I think that this story illuminates the problem, which is why we're talking about it, and I think it lets us further know that the problem isn't more guns.

The problem isn't well, I'm going to carry my gun with me everywhere, and I'm going to make a difference if I run across a mass shooter or someone being taken advantage of, or you know, whatever the case is, because there is this psychogun culture that exists, right, and black people have certainly been on the receiving end of that with respect to police since the beginning of guns and police.

Speaker 1

You know.

Speaker 2

And so anytime that I can challenge a narrative that people are trying to establish that is very pro gun, you know, I do my best to say, let's keep it all in perspective here, right, because what does it mean to be a good guy with a gun who stops a bad guy with a gun If you get killed by the police and then they just that that's

again just collateral damage, man's cost of doing business. And then because of qualified immunity, even if his mom wanted justice, like yo, my son was helping out, there's no way she could sue. There's no way she could get compensation. There's no way that you know, I'm not sure what happened here, but I don't know how she's paid for the funeral for her child, you know, I don't know if he had kids I don't know, you know what what's next, right, And so there's a whole system that

deserves criticism. It deserves it because that's how we make it as good as it can be. And those people that are holding on to the way it is right now are ignoring the realities, which is that it doesn't always work. And if you feel like this collateral damage is acceptable, then I need you to check your morality.

Speaker 1

Go ahead, you and Ramsey, you're being generous because even a point that you've made on other shows, Ramsey is saying it doesn't always work. A different and maybe even better way to say that is that it almost never works. None of these things that they're supposed to be preventing or ever prevented. It's always a response to something bad that has already happened. The strategies, the training, the whole infrastructure is not designed to prevent crime from happening, which

is the craziest part. With the amount of money being spent, the entire infrastructure of what they're doing be crime prevention, which would not require the guns and the militarization of our police forces. They just respond in the most to crimes that already happened and in this case, even when you tell them something's gonna happen, they still wait for

it to happen. If somebody calls and threatens to kill you and you call the police on them, the police can't do anything to that person until they've already tried to kill you. And I say try, hoping it wasn't successful. The brother of this man who went on this mass shooting, who killed a police officer at least one, there was a note found in his home saying he intended to kill as many Arvada officers as he possibly could. Earlier that day, this gentleman's brother asked the police to him

because he might do something crazy. I'm guessing they didn't because in their minds, well, the idea that he might do something crazy doesn't mean anything to us. He hasn't done anything yet, so it's all good. And that is part of the problem, folks.

Speaker 2

And you know, there's been this push. You know, we've been critical about the phrasing, but for better or worse, it is the alarming nature of it has gotten a lot of attention, but defund the police, which really means rethinking what policing means. And I think to your point, QE. You know, someone threatens something and the police are powerless to do anything because they're just words, you know. And I think it illustrates that the function of police is

to respond to crimes that have already happened. And so the case, the argument makes itself. The case makes itself because it's like, well, what can we do to prevent a crime from happening. Well, let's invest in programs that prevent crimes from happening. And then what's the next logical question, Well, where does the money come from to make that investment? Well, if we're preventing crimes from happening, then we have a

budget to respond to crimes that have already happened. That budget seems like the most logical place to pull from to invest in these programs to prevent the necessity of that big budget, hence defund the police.

Speaker 1

The crime prevention budget should absolutely come from the crime response budget. Like what are we even talking about?

Speaker 2

Hold on one second, watch this. So for those that know, you know, I do a show it's called uh if you wanted to look it up, the Black Information Network Daily Podcast. Right, we call it our Daily Story, But the Black Information Network Daily Podcast and It's a show that I do on behalf of iHeart Media, so you can look it up on their platforms. I did a recent episode where I talked to a man black man civil rights activists.

Speaker 1

And.

Speaker 2

He was a person that really believed that the police needed more money, not less right, And on that show, I couldn't say too much of anything because it's not the nature of that show that you know, I was interviewing him. The episode was about him, that was what it was. But everything that he said, as eloquent as a masterful of speaker as he was, everything that he said wouldn't hold a candle to what you just said.

Because you're absolutely right. If we can invest in crime prevention in that, you know, and we can actually decrease the crime or prevent the crime from happening in the first place, then what's in this necessity of this this budget to you know, go to war against the people that we're supposed to, you know, be protecting. There's something else too. I came across this. It just reminds me. It's a little bit of a tangent. But you know, if enough people are breaking a law, it shouldn't be

a law. You shouldn't arrest all the people and put them in jail to change the law. The law is wrong, not the people. The people are the people should dictate the laws, not the other way around. And again a fundamental shift in how we're thinking about what is policing, What are laws? What should the laws be?

Speaker 1

You know what I mean.

Speaker 2

Obviously we've seen marijuana laws change marijuana. It hasn't really hurt anybody unless it was illegal and people were able to monetize it and people fought over the money, you know what I mean. And then of course we have to rethink guns, and so this is the show where we have to talk about that. You know. Obviously, we implore you listeners to get active in your communities and take action, write your legislator, legislators and so forth, and

we'll change the world together. Before we end, go ahead.

Speaker 1

Before we move on, I just wanted to speak to a point that rams Is made earlier about my thoughts and my thoughts on guns and their place in society. I've been terrified of guns my whole life. If there was a national ban on guns and it needed votes, I'd be vote one and two, I'd be early. I would camp out, you know when the new iPhone comes out, I would camp out at the site like I'd be first and second. Sure, my becoming a gun owner was

a response to very, very extreme and urgent circumstances. That's fair at a time when the country was not just hyper polarized against black and brown people. In my home where everybody there is black and brown, and I mean black and Mexican specifically because our country was our pregnant had become president on the basis of keeping Mexican people out of our country. Build that wall was his actual

quote unquote war cry. So when my daughter and my son and my fiance who were Mexican and black, my children being both, and on top of there being this radical polarization of our country, there being a pandemic where food and necessities for the home started to become in short supply. Being the person in our open carry state of Arizona that did not own a gun when almost everyone else does. And to be fair, Ramses has been to my home. My home looks like the place where

the people who have stuff live. It's use we might not have stuff, but the people that live in that house have stuff. It would have been irresponsible for me to not be a gun owner under those circumstances. I am not a person that celebrates or wants there to be guns. Ever. I'm scared that I have guns and

I have kids. Right. I was just put in a position as the head of my household, the provider and the protector of my family, where I could not be the person in the event that nobody had anything and it appeared that I did. It was the have versus the have nots. You guys were going to continue to be the have nots if it came at the cost of my family not having it. So it was not

let me hit these streets of my guns. I've never left my house with my guns except for to go to the range so that I could be better prepared to use them if I ever had to. I don't carry a gun. I don't have a gun holster. There's no place in my car to put my gun. My guns remain locked safe in my home so that everybody if anyone ever came to my home looking to cause harm or to take from the people who I love and I am there to protect, then it wouldn't have

been a good day for them. Outside of that, I hope to never ever use a gun. Ever, and the day that our country says y'all can't have them, trust me, I am first to tell them y'all can come get them. I'll bring them to y'all. Y'all let me know which one works better for you.

Speaker 2

Well, thank you for saying that, because you know it's important to be clear about where you stand with that. You know, obviously there's nothing wrong with that at all. So way black history fact. We're a little bit lay punching in here, but will knock this out. The Floating Freedom School was an educational facility for free and enslaved African Americans on a steamboat on the Mississippi River. Was established in eighteen forty seven by the Baptist minister John

Barry meetscham Asitis comes from Wikipedia. As a young man, he guided seventy five enslaved people from Kentucky to their freedom in Indiana Free State. Once established in Missouri, he and his wife Mary Meecham were conductors on the underground railroad. They also purchased enslaved people and took them into their home. The Meechum's employed the enslaved people that they purchased and emancipated them when they had saved enough to repay their

purchase price. In the meantime, they were also educated and learned skills to be self sufficient once free. John and Mary also helped run away enslaved people across the Mississippi and into the Illinois into Illinois along the underground railroad. The Mary Meecham Freedom Crossing in Saint Louis, the first side in Missouri to be accepted in the National Park Services National Underground Railroad Network with Freedom, was named after Mary.

Beginning in eighteen twenty two, Meacham taught religious and secular classes for free. It was the first known school for blacks in Missouri. Called the Candle Talau School, It charged those who could pay one dollar per pupil intuition. Classes were held secretly in the basement of a church. In eighteen forty seven, he was forced to close the school he had been operating in the Saint Louis church basement.

Earlier that year, the miss Missouri legislature had passed a law that made it illegal to provide quote the instruction of negroes or mulattoes in reading or writing. In Meatcham and one of his teachers were arrested by the sheriff and threatened to circumvent the new state law in Missouri. Reverend Meacham bought a steamboat, which he anchored in the middle of the Mississippi River, thus placing it under the authority of the federal government. The new floating Freedom School

was outfitted with desks, chairs, and to library. Students were ferried back and forth between Saint Louis and the Freedom School and small skiffs. The school eventually attracted teachers from the East. Hundreds of black children were educated at the Freedom School in the eighteen forties and eighteen fifties. Those who could pay recharge one dollar a month. One of the early students was James Milton Turner, who would go on to establish thirty new schools for African Americans in

Missouri after the Civil War. Another was John R. Anderson, received much of his reading and religious training from the school. Reverend Anderson later took over management of the school after Meechum's death in eighteen fifty four. And there's a lot more here, but because of the time, I can't really go into it, but necessary to remind people that did he want us to read, He want us to write, and he want us to learn and.

Speaker 1

Was a crime for us to read write it was illegal?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I'm crazy.

Speaker 1

Could be the law talking about the laws. Yeah, sometimes the laws are wrong.

Speaker 2

So yeah, just funny how you know something like this is a part of our history and you know to you know, we mentioned critical race theory earlier in the show and on a lot of shows. But it's funny how they can make an argument that says that white students would be ashamed of this. How do you think it feels to be a black student? But the difference is we know it's important to know this, right, It's just kind of built into the culture, like, yeah, well

this is where we come from. And you hold your head up, you stay strong, you get with it, you get out there, you get busy, you do what you gotta do, you figure it out, you know, but this is where you come from. I wish that I had like a G eight story. Yeah, ancestors came over on some boat from Europe, and you know that sounds like a great story. We came over its slave chains and well, you know, singing spirituals and we shall overcome. But I'm proud of it. I'm proud to teach it. I'm proud

to know it. I had to learn to be proud of it. But it's hard for me to listen to someone else talk about how it makes them feel bad, because anybody gets deserves to feel bad, how uncomfortable they are. Because but but that's going to do it for us today here on Civic Cipher. So once again I'm the host. Fransis Josh go by the name qbred website, civi exacker dot com. Listening with PEPs episodes. Be sure to make a donation, sure going your help and follow us on

all social media at Civic Cecher and until next week. Y'all, yeah they go. We had the lady.

Speaker 3

It's the fact that our ladies show when you find travels world spe tones from sunlight to move, busting on stage like gonna fight supposed crack row my mic back like that journalists with journalists too, we can strike back hard horb borders with orders from head borders, behind in the bline side step in the borders with press passes.

Speaker 2

We bring it to you as it happens. The streets love popping from music and rapping the street.

Speaker 3

Compared the slash weak expander. You're gonna fight the stand up with the proper propaganda.

Speaker 2

What's happenings? You gotta questions and ask.

Speaker 3

If Deduce is just a TV show you're passing And this from a quiet wartime. Journalists headlines wake up prehis and recess like this.

Speaker 2

Like this, like this, like we get finds action, the

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