A Political Conversation with Black Men

support for Kamala Harris or whatever. And we finally were able to sit down and have it out with a room full of black men from all different political backgrounds, and we got some perspective on how some people felt. We got some information in terms of where some black men get their information from and whether or not it's vetted, if it comes from far right sources or online.

want to do more of them. And one of the things that we didn't get to do was answer all of the questions that were submitted for us to answer as best we could, and so we were given a handful of questions after the fact, and we thought that we would make this episode addressing some of those questions. Some of them we kind of touched on while we were there, so we'll, you know, be sure to include some of that here and hopefully bring you into the conversation that we were able to have on the ground

during Courageous Conversations. So I'm ramses joh.

a fair question to ask. I think an important thing to point out is that for the history of the United States, black people have had to deal with being under the thumb or under the boot of the oppressor. We've been manipulated, we've been taken advantage of, we've been

taken for granted. We've been made to feel we don't matter, we've been forgotten about, we've been the list goes on and on, and one thing we don't like is being put in a position where we feel like we're being pandered to, where we're being used, where people are kind of using blackness as a token that they can just cash in in a lot of cases simply by being black.

So I understand why that challenge is presented. The thing that often troubles me in cases like this one, or in this case specifically, as that our vote in this particular election, this is not a vacuum. It's not just are we voting for this candidate. It is, as we've echoed on the show multiple times, a zero sum, binary decision. At this point, there are two candidates and one of them will be president, whether we participate or not, whether

we disqualify one candidate because they're black or not. And there is one person in this race who has been president before. As much as people try to make it seem as if Vice President Harris is the president now, she's not former President Trump. However, we got four years of that, and I've heard people say they don't know enough about Vice President Harris's policies. Will get to that shortly, but we know a lot about former President Trump's policies.

I know a lot of people saying, we don't know enough about Vice President Harris as a candidate or as a person, but we know a lot about former President Trump. So is this a vote for her simply because of her skin tone or I'm guessing because she's black? No, but I'm black, and I know what this experience in this country will be like for me if the other candidate becomes president, and that colors. Forgive my use of that term, but that color is the way I see

the decision making process in this election. As far as accountability, the way that we most actively hold our elected officials accountable in this case is by first exercising our vote. And I know that sounds counter intuitive, right. If I've already voted from they already got what they want. It will again we have to talk about the two candidates that are present. With one of these candidates, Ramses and I can turn on our microphones and disagree with her

all the time. We can point out her flaws and her mistakes. We can even incorrectly point out her flaws and mistakes and then learn more and then come back and have to apologize to her. Have we done that? We can continue to exercise our right. The next time the calendar says it should be time to vote again,

we get to vote again. We can start organizing and having conversations as a collective community now so that we can flex not just our vote, but our money and our voices collectively as a community to hold our elected officials accountable. We will not wait until the next time. The election is now right in front of us to start talking about accountability. Right. A lot of things that we wait until election time to discuss and to try to exercise, we don't realize that at that point it's

too late, right. So, I know it seems backwards. You know that you would take the test and then learn the lesson, But in this case, that's how it works. You vote so that you can vote again. You vote so that you can disagree. You vote so that you can organize an attempt to hold accountable. One of these

candidates plans to make all of the above illegal. He has already started to refer to me because maybe you agree with him, but he's already started to refer to me and those of us that don't agree with him as the enemy with from within who he can weaponize police, and military against. He's already pointed out people who are political enemies of his who he plans to seek out

revenge on. He's already talked about, or not even just talked about, but helped push and encourage allies of his to get rid of reproductive freedoms for our mothers, our sisters, our daughters, our wives. He's already shown us that he wants to be a dictator. His word is not mine. He's already said to his followers, to his people, to his congregation, that you'll no longer have to vote because we're going to fix it. So he said a lot about the type of man and the type of president

that he wants to be. We know about how he views women in general, the things he thinks he's allowed to do that to them, just because we've heard him say that he's going to do things that are not popular with women, and that he does not care about that either. So we know a lot about who we're

voting for and what we're up against. And I think those are things that we should consider from both parties before we decide to just simply disqualified one candidate while holding her to levels of scrutiny that the other couldn't stand up to for five minutes, we've now drug her through for months. I hate to take up all of the oxygen on this question, but it's a talking point that we've seen before where people are deciding we're not

going to vote for her just because she's black. And that's fair, but when you see what she's up against, this should not for those of us you know, who share that skin tone be a hard decision because it's not because she's black. It's the if. We're talking about policies, and again there's more questions about that, so I don't want to speak too much on the policy part because there's more coming up. But look at the other candidate.

Find me a single redeeming quality, and I would love to continue this conversation with regard to skin tone.

us to articulate for you. That is something that's very googleable. You can you know, you can find that out on your own. But we have had a chance to become familiar with Project twenty twenty five. And even though Donald Trump has attempted to distance himself from Project twenty twenty five, which we know better, some of us do some of us know better. Yeah, but he's he also has it's

called Agenda forty seven. So if you are the sort of person that still believes Donald Trump, you can look at what he has up as Agenda forty seven and a lot of it is stuff that you would find in Project twenty twenty five as well. Kamala Harris has it's referred to as an opportunity economy. This is basically her strategy.

households over the years. And then you know the other forward thinking, more progressive things that she has identified that will benefit black men. Not exclusively, of course, it doesn't work that way, but these are areas where it will make more of an impact for Black Americans than maybe some historical legislation has. It's kind of like she reverse

engineered it. She looked at the areas that impact us most and then developed policy to speak to those areas, and then they ultimately translate into more prosperity in black and brown communities. But it's, of course it's not exclusively. This is America, the United States of America. So so anyway, the short of it is that all of those are there, and they're well documented, and you know, you're welcome to

check all of those things out. Another thing I want to add right here is that historically Black people have voted for more progressive, more liberal policies and candidates because they have tended to serve us well, you know, the You can look at the Civil rights movement, you could look at affirmative action, you could look at the SNAP program and assistance you know, for for families that are enduring you know, poverty.

scale of a country. But for folks that feel like we're just throwing our vote away every time, I feel like we have a lot of evidence to the contrary.

We can look back and see the progress. And if you feel like you're throwing your vote away for your own self or for your own lifetime, then you're ignoring the fact that you might have kids or grandkids or nephews and nieces or grand nephews and nieces that we'll have to inherit this world, and your vote could shape their lives, because indeed, people that live before me, her votes shape the life that I'm living right now. And so, yes,

progress can be very slow. But you know, for folks that feel like, you know, we're throwing our votes away because we're voting for Democrats again, you know, I I challenge that. I challenge that narrative, you know, And I'm not telling you to vote any certain type of way in this moment. Other moments I would I what I rather would say in this moment is that to not vote is like there's only one way to engage in a democracy, and for you to not engage, it's that's

not how democracy works. No one looks at the person that didn't vote and says, oh my gosh, we should be doing more to get his.

that rhetoric, so he's tripled down on it. And you just said that right now, and it kind of sparked a thought like, Wow, that's why they're candidates all over the country now marching to that same tomb because they saw people come out in numbers and vote that waste, so they voted according to that, not contrary to it. So that's a really brilliant point that you made. No one says to the people who aren't participating, let me

do more for you. It's never worked that way. But you saying that right now just made that very clear in my head. Thanks.

people feel like they studied harder in school. No, everybody is in school to learn, you know, for the most part, you know everybody. There's people that think that everybody has the same access to the same material. Okay, cool, what There's a lot of people that feel that. And then there's people like me who I got the worst story that you could have. I came from the worst city at the worst time and the worst circumstances, with both parents on dope, rats and roaches in the food.

that's it. So for me, I feel like if I look at things like it should be individual like, I work hard and I got what I need, So that's sawing me. The rest of y'all figure it out. I'll be bogused if I thought about things like that. I'm not saying other people are bogus. I'm saying my personality

isn't that way. I recognize that I'm lucky. I recognize that I'm you might use the word blessed, whatever, And I do my best to share opportunities and share platforms, and share time and space and energy and bandwidth so that other people could have access to it too. That's how I feel. I feel that way about black people. I'm black, so I feel that way about black people. I feel that way about gay people. I feel that

way about marginalized people, feel that way about women. I feel like anybody is born with a little bit of a strike against you. Sometimes that looks like white men too, you know what I'm saying. But I'm here to impart love and bring some equity and some balance to the universe. So you know, you decide what's right for you. But Q has he has a philosophy that I think sums

it up a little bit better. You don't have to lean into that right now because I know we got more questions, but I do want you to get the last word because that's that part of the question reminded me of you.

the universe, luck, some teacher, some mentor helped me. And who am I to not pay that forward to the next person who They've done this masterful thing of pitting us against one another with that mindset right that the other person that doesn't have it's because they're lazy, so why would you help them? And once that seat is planted, it just grows. And it's an unfortunate truth because I think all of our nature should be to want to help one another, to share, to want there to be

a collective. But it's tough, man. It's tough to be black in this country period. That's a whole thought. But when you have to consider the fact that we are diverse, because not all black comes from West Africa, some from the West Indies, some from South America, some from places all over the world, and you make it to this country and you're just squeezed into black And I hear black people often very proudly declare that we are not

a monolith. And we have to declare that because there are those who want to squeeze us into this box and make us stay there. But in not being a monolith, there is some vulnerability there. Right. We often do not come to the table with a collective push. We often don't come to the table asking for a collective outcome or demanding a collective outcome. And in this masterful ability for the oppressors to divide us, and by us, I

don't just mean black people, black people, immigrants, women, poor people. Collectively, we will be far greater than those that oppress us. But they've made it less clear to us that we should be united on so many things. And I'm going to take this into our next question because there's some similar language as black men. What are our non negotiables and what are issues other than criminal justice reform that

we should vote on together locally and nationally. And I brought this into this same question, because that together parts spoke to that collective criminal justice reform is a very very loud one because we watch how that ended heps Us on the news, We watch our bodies laid out and our mothers mourning and crying, and our funerals, and so that is a big one. And ultimately, Ramsey, that's a good place to stop, not because we don't need more.

But again, if we start to list all of our issues, we're going to have one issue that's very important to some people and not others. We realize that the more issues that we put on the table that are important, the more places we have to disagree, and that disagreement, that disagreement has us arguing with each other over what's most important instead of colacing around an issue and pushing

it forward. This issue of criminal justice reformance on the table right now, they're already actively trying to bring forward policies that were into George Floyd Act that didn't get pushed through collectively, but have taken pieces of it. Okay, let's give us a little bit on this, and give us a little bit more on this, and again, these are things that can be researched easily, so we want to speak more to how you guys feel, rather than trying to lay out absolute lines of policy only because

we don't have enough time. Reach out to us as a resource. We will point you in the right direction. We will send you links. We will send you scholarly reports. We will send you accurate, reputable, verified data. Civic cipher doctor, civic sideher on all social media platforms. Trust me, we respond. So dm us, email us, click any of the links you will reach us. But collectively having these conversations with each other starting November sixth, so that the next time

we're ready to vote, we've already had these conversations. We're already educated. We already know the things that will impact us as a collective. Most you know, from criminal justice reform to social programmings that would actually cut into crime instead of giving us more police officers with bigger guns and better tanks and better shields and better body armor. We know because the data tails us that does not affect the crime rate in our communities, not in a

way that's positive for us. Right the police get more money, they can arrest more people. It doesn't. And by arresting more people, you can say that black people committed more crime and then demand and justify a greater budget the following year. But we know better, right, So again, in this election, we have a candidate who wants to get rid of the Department of Education. Who do you guys think that's going to affect the most, the people that go to private school or the people that go to

public school. Right, So these things are far less complicated than we want them to be. But again, man, black people have had it hard in this country. Some of us do believe that our voices aren't heard, that our

prayers aren't answered, that our votes don't count. And when you're disenfranchised and discouraged, and you're hurt and disappointed and killed and arrested over and over again, you do get this radical pushback in you that'll make you look at something that is obviously positive for you and wrap your

mind around that not being the case. Right, Like this black woman that looks like your aunt or your sister or your mom running for president and you think and not as too obvious, that looks too much like right, so it must be wrong. So no, I'm good. I cannot vote for her just because she's black. Well what about because you're black? And what the policies that she wants to push forward will do for your everyday life and those that that look like you and those that you care about specifically.

justice for Black people in this country. Healthcare we need, We need access to too, healthcare that is that prioritizes us the same way it prioritizes our Caucasian brothers and sisters, especially our women. Other causes include housing discrimination. If that doesn't affect you, it doesn't mean that it does not affect other Black people in this country. Housing discrimination is a big deal, and if you need a deep dive, I know John Oliver has done a deep dive on that.

For those that have access to the internet elsewhere, you can check out a whole breakdown on YouTube if you want.

You know, once we have an idea of something that affects most of us and we can all get behind that one thing and there's some momentum there, then we are we are stronger in that moment than when we are fighting about Well listen, I'm on this path for this certain kind of restorative justice, and then everyone else

is on this other path. No, you know, q Q has this great analogy where he holds his hand out like it's a flat palm, and he says, it's really easy to break my fingers and render my hand useless when my hand is like this, And then when he coalesces his fingers into a fist, he says, it's a lot harder to break my fingers and to render my hand useless when it's closed into a fist, and all of my fingers are kind of, you know, collapsed in on each other. And there's a singular mission.

there's going to be more issues. And we want The thing is us getting on the same page in terms of how to be effectives as a voting group and as a group who are citizens of this country, contribute value to this country, who are endowed with consciousness from our common creator, with certain inalienable rights and alienable rightsalienable.

do them, and then press go and they just happen. Right. Their branches of government have to agree on certain things. You have to have a majority in a lot of cases to get legislation that you want pushed forward. Some people may oppose you because they ideologically disagree with you. Some people will oppose you because the people who funded

their campaign have a different interest in that right. The reason why it feels like we are the only group who is always forgotten is again, because we need more than everybody else needs. And in this country, if we're speaking specifically, you know black people and white people. Black people need more from our government than white people do. And I know we don't like to be put in a position where we're quote unquote playing victim, but it's just the history of our country. They gave us the

opposite of a head start by a lot. So when you talk about restorative economic justice or what you may have heard people call reparations, is because we didn't just have a hard go at this. You know, we had to start this.

one better. I use this. We spoke somewhere publicly recently and I brought this up and I'm only trying to say it faster because we got a bunch of questions and I want to get to as many of them as we can before we don't have enough time. White supremacist have a singular thing that they've united on. White Christian nationally in this country have decided that minorities and women are less than human. They deserve less rights, they deserve less of a voice, they should not even be

allowed to participate in this thing. We're the smarter, and by we, I'm speaking as them. We're the smarter, stronger, more powerful class of people. And you know, we'll make the decisions that are best for everyone, and they should trust us to do that. And the world would be a better place if we were the only ones that made all of the choices and did what was best

for us. And rich white Christian nationalists heterosexual men have convinced homosexual white men, white women, white poor people, white that the white part is most important. Don't make being a woman most important, rich most important, because then you have to look out for all women. Don't make being poor important, because then you got to look out for

all poor people. They've even convinced some minorities that the idea of white supremacy is how they should align ideologically too, and it will ultimately extend to them and will trickle down our prosperous lives to you, and so on and so on. I don't want to talk to you guys in circles like you're not picking up what I'm putting down. So they've united on that singular focus, and those at the very very top of that pyramid benefit from it.

Everybody else doesn't, but ideologically and on the same page. So all those people get to feel like they're getting what they want from government. They're not, but they made that one issue the most pressing and the one that they're most identifiable with, so it works on our side. That's not the case, first and foremost, because we're not black supremacists. First and foremost, we don't consider ourselves more important. We don't consider ourselves the only ones that deserve God's grace.

We don't consider ourselves the only ones that deserve to have a voice. We don't consider ourselves the only ones that deserve love or safety, or an education, or food or wealth or the pursuit of happiness. So that's our first breakdown, you guys, that's our first weakness, is that we're not evil. We're not as a as a ethnicity,

or as a race, or as a collective, greedy. There are people who feel like President Barack Obama wasn't a good president because he wasn't the black Donald Trump, because he didn't get in office and push forward legislation and agendas and things that only benefited black people. The same people have used those saying arguments against Vice President Harris because she said on a microphone that she will not

bring forth policy just for black people. It's not just us here, but the other side them about morals and ethics and being kind and generous and empathetic. They don't that. So they've tricked a lot of you into believing that they're going to get in office and make things better for everybody. But we should know better, right, So part of our weakness is our heart and our desire to share. Right. So we get to this point and the Democratic Party has fallen short on a lot of their promises to us.

But we have to understand that typically right, because we watched our former president throw all these rules away. So that part is confusing too, because we're like, wait, didn't you when Barack was in there, didn't these people have to agree and didn't, And then this other guy got in there and broke laws and broke rules and just did whatever he wanted and it still seems not being held accountable for it. So I can see how that

could be confusing. But politicians and politics, the way government works in this country, no one can actually just walk in the room and do everything they want to do. So that's part of the problem. Some people, I have to acknowledge, don't always get in office and always try all the things they said they wanted to do. But in cases that we've seen in most recent history, there

are those who collectively work against us. And even when we get to the highest seat, because of the three branches of government, because of checks and balances, because the need for a majority, because of the filibuster, and I can go on and on and on. It's been hard to push forward the agenda for black people in this country. It's not because people don't want to do it's not because people aren't trying. It's not because if it's far more nuanced than complicated than we think. And again, we

will continue to have this conversation. Civic cipher dot Com civic cipher on all socials message us, we will call back, right back, text back, email back. We might even pull up on you and sit down and talk to you.

the party designation, because the ideology of the parties switched once upon a time. Yeah, it was right after the Great Depression. Yeah, I think nineteen twenties, somewhere in the right, so very very wealthy rich Southerners became Republicans around that time, and it flipped the entire eye ideology of that party. And I think a similar thing is happening to that party now where they've changed identity. It used to be about law and order and the Constitution and things like that,

and now they clearly could care less about any of that. So, you know, more research, more questions, and more conversation. This is not a judgmental place. This is not a point of fingers. We just want the conversation to continue beyond surface level talking points that are kind of designed to get the answer to a question that you've already determined the answer before you asked us. And we're about learning from you and you learning from us. And I'm glad

you said that because we learn a lot too. Granted, we know probably more than most people because we work in this space every day.

to make them look bad. So I think people might think when they see that document that that's something that Democrats put together to shine a negative light on Donald Trump and his peak Downald people, closest advisors, friends, donors, cabinet members, and cabinet members put that playbook together for him so the next time he was president, they could run that play And I know people question the efficacy of information that they get because there's so much misinformation

out there. So I will continue to make us a resource. Reach out to us. We will help you find accurate information. We don't have all of that information available to us right now, so I don't want us to take up too much time on just that singular question.

Project and he explained this to me. He said that when you have a large enough sample size, you're talking a thousand plus and these are just black men, right, not a not a thousand plus sample size, and it's black men are a percentage of it, and white people are a percentage of it, and gays are a percentage of it. Whatever, just black men. And you have a large enough sample size, you see that the data. Again, the assumption here is that a larger sample size will

give you more accurate data. The data reflects the historical pump.

not since the seventies. And so the headlines are exaggerated because there is one section and I believe the increase was zero point seven percent of younger black men are actually considering a Donald Trump, voting for Donald Trump and o' donald trump presidency. Now, the question is what are the factors that cause the decline of black male voters. Well,

I think I got a theory here because the Internet. Now, when we're looking at the actual numbers and the actual age range of these people, these are the people who are the folks that have spent years listening to the andrew Tates of.

the way that anyone else can be convinced. And so I think that at least part of that zero point seven percent that has made the national headlines and caused this all to indeed look at these numbers like they are somehow way more statistically relevant than they have been historically. I would blame that phenomenon, at least in part, on some of the rhetorics, some of the information silos, some of the algorithm outcomes that people end up encountering on social media platforms.

the Earth is flat. It's provocative. It starts a conversation. Some people, Yeah, it does not matter whether that's how they even really feel. But they know they'll get the intention and the engagement. They can go back and forth. They can be a little bit of a star, you know. So it's not cool to say water is wet and the sky is blue. It's not cool to say things that people consider obvious. But if you can say something provocative, it gets to people going.

talk about a sector of a community. You know, we're talking about a predominantly black let's just say city, instead of a part of town having people financially glow up and relocate to a part of town that's more white, like the Jeffersons, Like the Jeffersons, George and Wheezy. What will happen is that people in that city. It's not

a numbers thing it's a ratio thing. So if the percentage of people in that city that are black is the same, So say it's a seventy percent black city, a bunch of people make more money and they move into a suburb where they're now the gross minority. Yeah, the percentage of black people in the city that they left could remain the same, and their voices will still

collectively be heard the same way. The only reason, the only way that that dynamic would shift is if only black people are relocating and then being replaced by people who aren't black. Gentrification correct, and the question didn't give us enough data to know if that's what's happening, So

it's hard to answer the question completely. The shaping of outcomes or policy in a city like Detroit, for instance, Detroit was one of the top six cities when I was in high school population for black people by number. By the time the recession hit in two thousand and eight, millions of people had left the city, which was the world's largest auto manufacturer at the time. But during that recession a lot of jobs went away, so did a

lot of people. However, it still remained a largely black city, So even though it went from several million people to several hundred thousand. The political outcomes were the same because it was still a mostly black populated city, even though the numbers were smaller by the millions. So I hope that answered that question. Again, with more information and more data,

we can answer that question more fully. But I kind of stepped in front of ramses because that's a complicated question that could go a lot of different directions, and just because there's not enough factors in the question, we could just speak to twenty different possible scenarios. And again we got to and try to get to every question that was at and then for me, M ra almost

done here. But then for me, you know, you know, I came from California and I came to Arizona, so there's always been my communities always been very very mixed, you know what I mean, even if even in a place like Compton, California, there's still a significant population of Hispanic people. And that was a time in my life when I was very young, so I wasn't like clicked on to like community needs and that sort of stuff. So you know, I haven't lived in terms in like a majority black community.

networks than most of us still need to reach. So yeah, you know what, we have some privileged information just because we're connected with some some people and some movements and things like that, and we happen to know that knocking on doors, you know, starting conversations, having community forums, reserving rooms, and passing out flyers, making phone calls, making phone calls, all that stuff still is still effective and people still use it.

So for folks that want to, you know, galvanize people, engage people after, not just before, but after elections take place. You know, it's it's on you and and and to be honest with you, that's part of how you get started in politics, you know, that's part of how you like get started in really creating some change, you know. And so you know, if that feels like something that you still want to do, do it. You know, if

you need some support. We have an Ebony Excellence segment on our radio show, and we love shouting out people that are doing good work out there, and uh, you know, we'll still be your brothers.

gone unscathed. Right. It is a massive cross section of things at the top. Ramses communicated to me for the first time, and I was like, wow, right, the white heterosexual Christian male who's wealthy, that's a lot of things that had to cross over. But that person then took every other group with people and made them a silo. Hispanics go over there, black people go over there, you know, Asian people go over there, because if we united, that

person's position would be threatened. So you have black straight people versus black gay people when they have so many similar interest in goals and things that they want out of life. But if you can keep them divided on that thing right and use church to do it right, make that other group and other and make them bad, and then they won't unite, right, and then they're far more poor people in this country than rich, far more. It's not even kind of close. It's not even kind

of close. It might be like ninety five to five, like something gross if they all united, right, So you have to keep them divided. There's a candidate in this race that has policies that will affect most people positively, there's another candidate that has policies that will affect most people negatively. Somehow, this race is like a neck and neck fifty to fifty thing, and the data shows that

shouldn't make sense. The reason why it does is because they found a masterful way to tribalize people and put them all on these different teams even though they have these cross sections of things they could all equally benefit from. So when you get in a room and you say, well, who's going to do the most for the black issues, Well, if everybody in this room is black but also poor,

there's way more poor people than black people. So if everybody poor was represented by someone, that person could do the most good for the most of us.

we're talking about societies. And so when you look at a person like a Donald Trump, and you look at a person like a Kamala Harris, and you look at a system of democracy in a two party system, in a country as young as this one is, and you think you got it all figured out, and you think that you're smarter than the great human algorithm that has tried and failed and tried and failed and ultimately become the most optimized version of itself. For those that are

familiar with indeed, how algorithms work. For you to think that somehow you are flying above that. Yeah, you're singular right. Most like you and I both realize that we are just susceptible to disinformation missing.

for a hypothetical. Right, then someone else will bring new information that casts not only their candidate but their decision in a different light, and rather than changing the decision with the new information, they will re engineer a justification for for the decision that they've made that somehow flies in the face of the new information, factual information that

they've made. And this is something that happens to human beings, This is something that happens in societies, and this is something that is as old as the great human experiment that nature is performing.

the with the Mark Twain, and they're defending themselves. I believe it was Mark Twain who said it is easier to fool a person than to convince them that they have been fooled. It's not about the information that they were provided. It is about the position that they said out loud was their position. So now you are in a front or are in opposition to that person, not just their idea, because the new information should disprove the

idea and cause them to move on without resistance. But no, now you're coming at me, and sadly, in a lot of these cases, there is something in Donald Trump that people identify within themselves and they are now defending themselves, not just the misinformed decision that they made.

one needed to be us. Yeah, that needed to be just and you know, if you if again, if you wanted to keep the conversation going, you have everything you need for the show.