Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I'm your host, Ramsey's job. Big shout out to Maman c Ward, who is out traveling the world once again making the changes
that he would like to see. And he has left me in good hands, great hands, fantastic hands in fact, because subbing in for him this week is a longtime friend of the show and just an all around amazing person, Leanna Taylor of the Arizona Pet Project. And we have a special guest that we're going to be talking to today. He goes by the name of Bulay, and I'm just going to read this from your website. I think it's hilarious and I think it really gives some insight into
just the type of person that you are. Boulay is a writer, speaker, vegan ices, and the former executive director of OURVC, a nonprofit in Seattle that promotes social justice by developing leaders of color, strengthening organizations led by communities of color, and fostering collaboration among diverse communities. He currently writes the blog nonprofit af and is involved with community
centric fundraising. And so today we're going to have a conversation about the nonprofit sector, something I'm not entirely familiar with. But first, welcome back.
To the show, Leanna, thank you so much for having me Big Shoes to film.
Boule, the man of the Hour, Welcome to the show. How you doing the day? First off, I haven't even heard your voice yet.
Hi, Ramses, thanks for having me. I'm doing good.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So one of the things that really stood out to me when I was kind of doing a little bit of research on the work that you do is you seem to be very passionate about that. I know that a lot of our listeners are very passionate about making changes in their communities and in the world at large, and so we're very much looking forward to the conversation we're.
About to have today.
But before we get there, like we always do around this time, we start the show off with some Ebony excellence, and today's Ebony Excellence is sponsored by Actively Black. There is greatness in our DNA. Visit actively black dot com and today's ebny Excellence comes from binnews dot com that is the Black Information Network. A photo going viral on social media suggests that former President Donald Trump could face an all black appeals court in his New York hush
money case. On May thirtieth, a New York jury found Trump guilty. On thirty four, Pellam accounts A falsifying records related to hush money payments made to adult film star Stormy Daniels amid the twenty sixteen election. The now viral post a user shared a photo of five black female justices from New York's First Department A Pellet Division, asking quote, do you think Trump has a chance with the Manhattan
Appeals Court? Unquote, Though it is possible for the five women pictured in the post to be selected to sit on the case, justices are randomly chosen from the pool of First Department A Pillot Division twenty one.
Divisions twenty one members.
The viral photos showing Justice Baharti pitt Burke, Justice Troy K. Weber, Presiding Justice Diane t Renwick, Justice Tanya R. Kennedy, and Justice Marsha T. Mitchell, was taken in February twenty twenty four, as the panel made history as the first time in all black bench ever set on a case in the
first department. And so the reason why we are celebrating this ebony excellence is imagine the amount of alignment that the moon and the stars and the planets had to achieve accomplished in order to make a moment like this happen. Right in and of itself, five black judges is an amazing thing. But to know that these might be some or all the people that are presiding over Donald Trump's appeal is kind of like poetic justice, and that is
ebony excellence if I ever saw it. Now, back to the man at hand, Broulet, before we get into some of the questions that we have for you, for those who are uninitiated, do us a favor and just talk a little bit about yourself and the work that you do and have done historically. Just again for the sake of introducing you to our listeners.
Yeah, thanks to Ramsis. I have a master's in social work and I have run nonprofits for the past maybe twenty years or so. I've been involved in them and they range from serving immigrants to education equity work to leadership developments. And the last organization I was working with was trying to get more leaders of color into the nonprofit sector because we oftentimes don't have enough nonprofit leaders
going into this field. Many of us have been pushed by our families to go into to medicine or business or law. My family tried to do that and it did not work out, and so I went into nonprofit. And I think our sector is amazing. It's doing really incredible work for the world, and it oftentimes is not appreciated. It's very invisible to people, even though it's so vital.
Sure, but in addition to being vital, vo I mean last I read, nonprofit is one of the leading employers in the country.
Yeah, we've been growing from what I heard, I think we were growing at like two percent, whereas other sectors were shrinking. And I think it's because younger people want to have more meaning in their work, and oftentimes they can't really find that in the corporate setting, so they think maybe if they go into nonprofit work, they can find some of that meaningful work that they've been searching for.
So one of the things that I know is sort of part and parcel to nonprofit work is money or lack thereof.
Right, I famously.
Was up there along with Q was famously at the Home of a nonprofit for about ten years now. We weren't you know, nonprofit stars or anything. That we were radio guys and DJs that happened to create the corporate infrastructure so that we could cultivate relationships with businesses, so that we could provide a service to the unhoused by providing food and hygiene and so forth.
Right, But we didn't get deep at all.
Again, our day jobs as radio person now that's really what we were doing. We just kind of had this thing that we did once a month. It was an event and we needed the again, the legal infrastructure under which to operate and be in compliance.
Right.
But I maintain and I know that you both will probably back me up here, is that fundraising again is one of the the defining elements in terms of the success of a nonprofit. And one of the things that has come up again in our conversations is this concept of community centric fundraising. So for those who don't know, let's talk a little bit about what that is, what that means.
Yeah, fundraising is definitely a very important part of the sector and nonprofits we live or die based on our donations and grants and so on, which can be very challenging to obtain and in order. We have a fundraising philosophy and system right now that includes mainly making sure that donors feel really appreciated, putting them in the center. It's called donors centered fundraising, and there is a certain art and science around it, like, for example, you have
to make donors feel like they're the heroes. And you do this by saying things. You know, like when you when you write an appeal letter asking for money, you have to use the word you many times. You can't just say, oh, we are helping all these kids. You got to say because of you, we helped kids. Because of you, you did this. We couldn't do this without you.
So our entire databases that manage nonprofit email that will actually measure how many times you use I language or WE language versus you and encourage you to shift that that writing strategy.
Yeah, and over time it has trained both us and our donors to believe that we are there to be serving donors and they are heroes and we should be
always be grateful to them. But it's very problematic because one is that it creates the sort of hunger games among nonprofits where we're just competing to be to see who can suck up the donors the best, basically, but let's be honest, right and the other The other one really major problem is that it avoids having these difficult conversations with our donors about where their wealth comes from.
And a lot of wealth in this country, as you know, comes from really inequitable means like slavery, stolen business, land worker exploitation, environmental degradation, tax avoidance, colonialism, imperialism, et cetera. And we don't talk to our donors about this because
we've been trained to sell them their heroes. So community centric fundraising tries to reverse this by putting the community in the center, not the donors, and that means talking to our donors about reparation and maybe they should be paying more taxes. It's also about nonprofits supporting one another instead of like engaging this cutthroat competition with one another for resources with donors.
So one of the other things that I'm understanding is that there is a difference between It's almost like the same way that there's a political division in this country that is more pronounced than it has ever been before, at least in my lifetime. There's a difference between progressives and conservative funders, and my understanding is that the latter,
the conservative funders, are a little bit more effective. So talk a little bit about that and perhaps the strategies behind that, and how perhaps the more progressive, liberal minded individuals could adopt some of those strategies so that there could be effective fundraising all the way around.
Yeah, I've been very frustrated with fundraising. I think many of us in the sector have been. And it's not just all around frustration. It's really frustrationing with a lot of the progressive leaning funders and donors because they say that they support progressive policies, they support equity and justice and so on, but many of their practices don't really
hand out. And there has been studies now where they look at, like the differences between conservative and progressive foundations and donors and see what are the differences, and there's some stark differences. Progressive conservative funders, for example, they fund they give you a grant and it could be like twenty or thirty years at a time, whereas progressive leaning funders, you're lucky you get maybe like a two year grant. Most of them are for one year. You got to
reapply every single year, and it's very burdensome. There's like this lack of trust, whereas I think with a lot of conservative movements, they're like, well, you are aligned with our values, and you know, we seem to be aligned. We both like this, or we both hate these people or whatever. Right, Right, there's not a bunch of money.
One of the things that I've always enjoyed so much about your blog, where you talk a lot about these challenges that nonprofits face, particularly with funding, is the question of sustain ability. Right. It's a question on every grant application. Often these are applications where we're writing for five thousand dollars, non renewable, one time investment, and the question is, tell us how you're going to change your community or this
issue with this gift. And I'd love to just kick that back over to you, because those rants on your blog or some of my favorite things to read, they have me practically well literally laughing out loud, sometimes with tears.
Yeah, there's a lot of ridiculousness that we have to do with all the time in this sector. Funders do expect miracles, you know, and they're like, here's five thousand dollars white in un racism last year. It's very frustrating because we have to spend like a whole year just applying for that because many of them take months before they actually give you an answer. And then when they do give you money, it's like, well, here's some money, but you can't spend it on salaries. You can only
spend it on these things computers or whatever. You can't spend it on overhead, right, you know, like they really hate this concept of overhead, which is staff, salaries, rants utilities, things that are critical.
And then they ask this question of like.
How are you going to sustain this program when this money that we give you runs out and it's like for one year, and I mean it's a ridiculous question because all of us are like, well, we're just going to keep fundraising because homelessness is.
Not going to go away next year.
Right. So this is another difference is that conservative funders they understand it takes years, decades, and it takes strategies such as ensuring that conservative judges are on the benches because then once they're on the benches they can keep ruling in favor of conservative policies and values for years and years to come. Whereas progressive leaning funders, they only think in one year terms and very narrow issues.
Okay, one of the it's interesting that you mentioned that because I was this was some months back, but I was researching kind of the history of the dismantling of Roe v. Wade, and there's a couple.
Of names behind that.
But I recalled that this was probably a fifty year plan something like that, where the people were fortified fiscally speaking. They had a strategy, and they worked the plan, and they had a very long term approach to creating the
outcomes that they wanted. And I can hear the frustration in both of you guys's voice because you know, at least with Leanna, I know that sometimes we'll have conversations and you'd be like, Hey, I'm trying to get a grant to continue to do the type of work that I do to shape outcomes in my community, and I literally have no time. I can't pay anyone else to do it because the money is allotted for you know whatever,
and it kind of sucks the life out of me. Well, yeah, but also the work that you would be doing otherwise, right, And so when you spend that much time chasing enough money to sustain again, lights, overhead, that sort of stuff, and then you can put a little bit of money on the ground, you can't make the changes that you would like.
To make, right, And I was just going to say, I mean, I think it might be helpful for people listening to just understand, like where did nonprofits come from?
Why do they exist in the world, And.
Also this might lead in Voo to some of the work that you've been doing. So like, nonprofit and philanthropy was really created to build systems and infrastructure to support individuals and communities with work the government isn't doing. Right, We're kind of that social safety net to do things
that governments are either unwilling, unable, or can't afford. And it started way way back by a bunch of predominantly women, right, predominantly white, wealthy women who came in to do work in low income communities and hand out soup at soup kitchens. And that model of nonprofit philanthropy hasn't changed a ton
over the centuries. It still is here to support right programs and people that government programs are letting slip through the cracks, and is still a very predominantly white driven industry. I just think it's important to kind of level set that because a lot of the issue is that we're talking about in this work are are not by accident, right, They were built into the system, because this system parallels
the system that this country was founded on. And in order for us to start thinking about community centric fundraising and moving away from donor centric fundraising, we've got to be able to have those really open, honest conversations and then start inviting, not inviting, clearing spaces, making all the room for people of color and communities of color to
get involved in different ways. Boo, I know that's something that's really really important to you, and I think also speaks to why the Conservatives have done philanthropy so well, right, It serves the conservative system of the United States.
It does because you know, they still want to sort of maintain sort of well avoid paying taxes and sure that wealthy people are still in power, wealthy corporations and the way that they so everything.
Is aligned for them.
Whereas for progressive philanthropy and nonprofit work, if we're actually if we're actually successful in trying to achieving our outcomes, many foundations would not be in existence. Many nonprofits would not be in existence because the government would have enough resources and would look like the community it's serving, and
it would be providing the resources that people need. So we wouldn't have homelessness shelters, right, we would not have services for veterans because well the government should be doing that, but instead, you know, like we had to kind of step in and take care of it. So, yeah, there's an existential threat to a lot of people. And I get into trouble. But I think, like so much in philanthropy has been like a hobby for people, for like wealthy people, and the sector has become like the sky
Mall catalog. Remember sky Mall catalog when we were on the airplane. Yeah, and there's like these catalogs, those all these cool things that we could look at and choose from. I think unfortunately our sector, the nonprofit sector, progressive leanings, nonprofits, you know, like that's what we become. We've become like this catalog for rich people to pick and choose from. They're like, oh, I love early learners or I love homeless people. Let me pick and choose this cause to
give some money to. Is that what they should be paying doing, which is to pay taxes.
Okay, okay.
One of the things that you mentioned that kind of sparked a thought, and I'd love to get your thoughts on this, is that you were talking about a government that reflects the population, and that to me, that example screams diversity, having a diverse mix of people making decisions.
So I know that this is something that's near and dear to your heart, both of you in fact, But vou talk to us about the importance of diversity in the nonprofit sector, what are the benefits of it, and how those having a diverse nonprofit sector.
Would help shape outcomes for communities.
Yeah. Right now, the diversity in our sector, and I would imagine everywhere else is like a pyramid, right. It's more diverse at the bottom level, where people don't have enough power, so a lot of online staff. As we move up the top of the leadership pyramid towards senior level leaders, CEOs and directors and so on, board leaders, it's predominantly white. And it's also predominantly white men, the wealthy, white men, elite educated, you know, Ivy League graduates and
so on. So this has caused a lot of problems for you know, ninety five percent of foundation board trustees or the most powerful people are like are white, and they get to determine where money goes. And this is why ninety percent of philanthropic dollars in our second or goes to white lead organizations who then implement strategies that may work for certain communities, but they may not work
for marginalists, for the most marginalized communities. So the diversity is really critical because we need the people who actually have the live experience to actually be in charge to allocate funding and to lead in these programs and services, and oftentimes it's not happening, and people can be very well meaning, but without that diversity and lit experience, a lot of services and programs are just not as effective as they could be.
One of the things that you said there reminded me of I believe it to be a quote, but it's used pretty widely.
It says that.
The people that are closest to the problem are often closest to the solution. And so I kind of love the way you strung that together because I think that we have a tendency to think because of conditioning and because of just I mean, it makes sense. I'm not mad at anybody who thinks this way. But you know, people who are Ivy league educated, they are somehow better equipped to tackle these great problems that ale society. And
I understand the logic behind that thinking. If you have no other framework, that might be something that you would lean into. But I think that with what you're suggesting, and again this like this a little bit of wisdom. You know, those people who are closest the problem are closest to the solution. I think that that helps to kind of reframe a the problem and b how to get to the solution. And I think that there's there's
definitely something there. And I as we continue to move toward a more diverse composition in terms of you know, nonprofit, ethnic composition, in terms of leadership, my hope is that we will also move toward more solutions that will create the outcomes we want to see in the world.