Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I'm your host, Rams' job, he.
Is Rams' jah, I am q war. Do you I turned into Civic cyclent.
Died you are and we're going to need you to stick around today. We've been noticing, uh, increasingly noticing that we are living in a divided society. We've been noticing that for the past four years since we've known the show.
Drake and Kendrick really do have the country and that really stood out to me.
Yeah, yeah, that too, that too. But in addition to that, what we're seeing happening on college campuses really illustrates that, you know, even something as far away as a war in Gaza can have significant locasions here stateside, and there are people that feel one way about it and people
that feel another way about it. On this show, where of the persuasion that you know, Palestine needs to be free, and we end up having conversations with people who feel like, how would I say Israel has a right to defend itself? That's probably what they would stand.
On, right yeah, those those are not inherently conflicting ideals.
Though, right right, But that's of it is what makes the problem. But they would base their they would base their argument around that, and we end up having to talk to people who have differing opinions. And sometimes we are successful and we'd like to share our best practices
with you when we have those successful ones. And then sometimes we learn, and we're going to hopefully be able to share with you what we learn when you know, those conversations devolve, but you know, hopefully this helps you in your activism and in your pursuit of a more equitable world for all. But before we get there, it's time for some ebony excellence.
Shall we?
I think we shall.
This week's Ebony Excellence is brought to you by Actively Black. Visit actively black dot com. There is greatness in our DNA. The story comes from twelve news dot com in Tempe, Arizona. While most eighteen year olds are trying to choose what college to attend, one is wrapping up her college career. Dorothy Gene Tilman stands out this graduation season not just because of her age, but also her list of accomplishments.
Tilman a student at Arizona State University. Has earned her associate degree at eleven years old, earned her bachelor's degree at thirteen, and was just fifteen when she completed the master's program. Now eighteen, Tillman has earned her doctorate in behavioral health. She says, and I quote, I never really thought that this would be like what it turned into, she said, once I started, you know, getting into higher education, kind of just every time I complete something, I thought like,
what's next, and now I'm here, wow. End quote. Aside from her numerous degrees, Tillman also started a leadership institute where she teaches children in Chicago and West Africa about science, technology, engineering, arts, and math. She hopes to use all that she has learned to change lives. More than twenty thousand Arizona State University students graduated Monday night, signaling the end of their
undergraduate years in college. Seven thousand, including Tillman, received their postgraduate degrees Monday morning, the largest graduation in Arizona State University history. And that young lady, it was hard for me to even finish reading that story from the first accomplishment associated we ad eleven years old, froze me. I had to push myself to keep reading her that all that she's doing, and to have the immediate space in her mind to say, I want to give back, I
want to teach help and mentor others. Salute to her, and we will be following her story moving forward.
Yeah, yeah, that's very special, all right. So how to talk to someone with a different opinion, different political opinion. So we're in this space, as you can imagine, we have a radio show with I mean, these shouldn't be radical opinions and views, they shouldn't be at all. We only pursue equitable treatment for everyone. And sometimes equity means these people get a little bit more consideration than these people.
That's the nature of equity. And we have to appeal to people who sometimes feel like equity means that they lose something. Equality even means that they lose something or otherwise they think that equality solves all of the problems when there has indeed been a four hundred year head start on their behalf.
And sadly, even in the case of the latter, even those feel like equality is taking too much away from them. So that's an interesting starting place where an inequitable reality for most has created a reality for a few who feel like even less than equity, it's too much for them to concede on your behalf because it makes something less than it was for.
Them, exactly exactly. So on our path, we've had to have some challenging conversations with people who disagree with us, and the reason why we felt confident enough putting this segment together. And spoiler alert, we're working on a book about Allyship. I'd imagine that'd be out in several months. It's going to take us a while to get that
on the shelves for you. But we're really passionate about this work, and we really think that we're capable of more, and with your support and your help, we think that we can actually make an impact in this world. And
so that's what we're doing. But in any event, having the experience the growth that the show has experienced now being on Coast to Coast seventy plus radio stage seventy five, I think it's stations around the country, We've had many conversations with people who feel very differently about what should take place politically speaking, and yet and still we have earned these people's trust and support, and so today's conversation is not an exhaustive list, but we do hope that
you can learn a little bit from what we've learned and the conversations that you do have with people who disagree with you, maybe they're in your family, maybe in the workplace, that they will penetrate a little bit deeper. Before we start, I want to share a tweet that kind of inspired this now. Charlotte reposted this on his social media charlottne and God or see the God for those on Instagram, reposted this. But the tweet was authored
by a person named Stephen Barlett I believe. I believe he's the author, But it says being able to hold a strong opinion without having a visceral hatred towards everyone else that doesn't hold that opinion seems to be becoming increasingly difficult for people on social media. Right. In other words, if I have an opinion and you have a different opinion, more often is it the case that I'm going to attack than engage. Right, And before we get into any of the meat and potatoes here, let me just say
full disclosure. I famously, for those that follow us on social media, I famously post in ghost I don't interact with anybody in the comments. I don't want to hear it. I know, and I all the love somehow, I feel like in my heart all the love makes its way to me, and all the negative nasty comments they don't. But the truth is is like I don't want to get burnt out on the type of good work that I think that we're doing here. And if I listen to everyone in the comments, it's very easy for me
to get burned out. And I think of myself as a resilient person. But anyone can succumb to hear seeing negative comments about yourself every day. Oh it's his beard, fake, he glued his hair on. Even like superficial attacks like that they take their toll after a long time. Right, But let me tell you, let me make this social media story come to life a little bit. There's a
friend of mine and a friend of this show. His name is Amy Horwitz, and he's been on the show many times, and he and I have had and Q have had some knockdown, drag out agreements. I always say that two things are true about Amy. One is that he and I agree on almost nothing. Almost nothing I would say nothing politically speaking. Number Two, I believe Amy is a good man. He loves his mom. I don't feel like he has any sort of personal anger toward me.
I believe that he thinks what he's doing is right, and I believe in his human capacity for that to evolve as he learns and grows through life. Mine. Everyone deserves to be able to learn and grow, and so he's not a lost cause.
But I think he has some very obvious blind spots that kind of make it hard to be a great person. And not because he does not have the capacity, which
I think is important that that grace is extended. But anybody who at the same time has the capacity to view one entire group of people, well that's less than for me that that creates a It creates some hesitation with regard to how I, how I view you, when there's people who, without ever having interacted with them, you'd consider less worthy of all that we all look for and desire in life for ourselves and those that we care about.
Sure, sure, sure, and that's that's that's not unkind. I think that's fair. I'm just saying that these are two things that I say about Ammy. And in full disclosure, Amy is planning on coming out here to hang out with me, and I think that's beautiful, you know. I I think that Amy can learn from me, and maybe I'll even learn something from him. Who knows right, And Amy is the exact type of person that infuriates me. But I actually know this one, right, I like know him.
I don't. I don't know him knowing, but I know his mom. I know you know, it's family and blah blah blah. Right. Anyway, now that you know a little bit out Amy, if you haven't heard any of his episodes where we were yelling at each other on the mic, Amy has a post on his social media he went to one of the protests and at New York Community College something like that, and he says, and he's a gorilla journalist, right, So he gets his camera crew and goes out there and tries to you know, he's kind
of like a man on the streets type of journalist. Anyway, he goes out there with the American flag and he says, you know, hi, I'm Amy Horowitz, and today we're going to see what these protesters think when I show up with the American flag. Right, And a little bit of background, if you're not familiar with these college campus protests. There are a lot of pro Palestine protests taking place around the country, people creating encampments, barricading themselves into rooms and
so forth, whatever my kind of party. I love when people like direct action. I kind of love that, right. And these people who are protesting feel like these universities need to stop, to divest from Israel, stop sending money, spending money on Israeli businesses, and they're hoping the ripple effect will be that the Israeli government will receive pressure from the Israeli businesses and the Israeli government will adopt a softer position with respect to their bombing campaigns in Gaza.
These people who are protesting also feel like the United States is very very very much culpable, because the United States is actually funding the war and sending over the bombs that are being used to, you know, blow human bodies apart into pieces, the bodies of children and so forth, and this is kind of what makes those people's stomach turns.
So the United States being culpable means that these group of protesters are particularly sensitive to the American flag being introduced in their decidedly anti Israeli, anti US government stance.
And that's kind of part of what I mean.
Right, So Ami does this, I'm sure like that to.
Get that type of reaction intentionally to then ahai you and say, see this is how they feel about America. It is a very very intellectually and emotionally dishonest thing to do.
I'm glad you said that.
So that again that gives me some paus Man.
Yeah, but I'm glad you said that because on ami social media where he posted this, he was saying, you know, I went out there and these people they beat me up and blah blah blah. And I says, okay, Amy, Well and I explained basically what I just explained, Well, these people are they feel Israel and the United States are responsible for this, So showing up with an American flag is like kind of like antagonizing and agitating them.
And so if you're going there looking for that and then you get it, it doesn't it doesn't feel like you know, and a lot of his videos I'm very critical of because it feels like that's kind of the angle. He's just like, let me figure out a way to show the people that view my footage what they want to see, not what's really there, you know what I mean. And you know, when you like a counter demonstration of counter protest, normally that it takes place across the street,
you know, somewhere. You know, you don't get in the picket line with.
Bringing the counter protest to the protest to then point at the protesters as bad people for responding to you. Again, sure and emotionally an intellectually dishonest and manipulative thing to do.
So here's what happens. So I says I said that on his social media, and man if his people didn't rip me apart. They're like, this is America. You have a right to do. The protesters can wave the Palestinian flags, but army can't wave the American flag. Oh look at this guy, he's a goofy corn blah blah blah blah. Some of them actually saw the page and they're like, you know, put some respect on my name because I'm him, you know what I mean. But they still have something
to say, right, because they think I'm just a comment. Right, they don't know that I'm I get to hang out with q Ward every week, right, So they don't know that you actually, they don't know that you're an activist.
That's the that's the best way to say that you're just a commenter and an ignorant commentar with it that that has nothing invested in what he's talking about, or that is as lacking in the way of being able to support his position as they are.
Now here's the other part of it. Whenever I talk to Amy and and he's he hit me back with the response and I and I did check that response out because it says it's from Amy and he's he's my friend on social or civic Sipher follows Ami Horowitz. We respect him as a journalist, you know, for what that's worth, and we do it's it's it's important to have insight into how people on his side of the coin think. And what I've learned is weird. Does this
sounds is? You know? Q always said this to me, and I knew he was telling me the truth, and I appreciate you saying this to me, but it didn't really become real until just this past week when I had this exchange with Amy. We agree on way more stuff than we disagree on, right, and Q was speaking I always in a more general sense about you know, Democrats, Republicans, conservative.
Liberals, but human beings.
Human beings.
There you go.
But Amy and I we disagree on everything, every single thing. But that's not really the whole story. And here's what happened. Ammy and I ended up getting on the phone together, and uh, because he said, hey, you know in the comments, he's like, hey, these people did beat me up, Ramses.
I have bruises all over my body. I can send you the photographs if you want, And I says, yes, Ammy, if you send me those photographs, I'll review them and then I can put together a story with journalistic integrity and discuss it, maybe on the Black Information Network, maybe on Civic side for the show you're listening to right now. And I haven't received those yet. I'm not saying Amy is you know, he may not have seen the comment,
doesn't matter. But after I sent the comment, and you know, people reacted to that comment trying to rip me apart. Ammy and I got on the phone and I'll tell the story of why we got on the phone in the second half of the show. But we got on the phone and at first I shot him a text because he didn't answer the first call, and I was like, or I facetimed him, and he didn't answer, and I shot him a text. I was like, hey man, just checking up on you, hoping all is well with you
and your family. And that was that. And he called me back thirty minutes something like that, and he's like, hey man, you know, I'm in the airport. Now he talks. He's like, hey man, I'm in the airport wherever he was at. And he's like, you know, I just didn't I didn't hear my phone ringing. I was like, yeah, man, you know. And then we got to talking about that that video post, and I was able to tell him that, you know, I don't love that. I do love him.
I think he's his methods are more antagonistic than I would appreciate. And to be fair, you may not have the capacity the patience to be as diplomatic as as me. I. The Q always tells me I have like a special gift or something. I don't know that I do. I just I'm very committed to if I.
Do know that you do, and our listeners can can understand where I'm coming from. You just finish explaining that you and Amy disagree on everything, not some things, not most things, all of it, everything, and then you follow that up with he's a great man and I love him,
and that's my friend good Man. Yeah, that's a special quality, brother, that's not There's no one on this earth that I would disagree with on everything, and then follow that up by telling you how much I love and appreciate them as my friend and how great a person they are. Because disagreeing on everything means that there's some fundamental principle.
Sure, and that's imposed on that's and that's very important to note too, because if if somebody's politics, what they what, they how they're they're oriented politically, how they vote, the ideas political ideas they espouse, if those things are centered firmly in the dismantling of your community, your identity as a person, your freedoms, et cetera, then it's okay. I'd imagine to escalate things a bit.
But what I found our prior president, Yeah, the only time I ever had a problem with people based on how they voted was him.
Yeah.
My whole life, I had friends, and my mother more specifically, had friends who voted Republican Conservative, you know, people who are very very close to me and my children. I always voted Republican and conservatives. So that guy was where the line was drawn and where things started to get uncomfortable with people that I know and care about, because disagreeing on that is more than just politics.
Sure, sure, so watch this. Once you know that there is this former president who is kind of move the line, kind of of decency, kind of definitely one and fifty percent moved the line of what would be considered decent clear in terms of how to regard your countrymen and women, your country folk. Once you know that, at least once I know that, I start to recognize that people are kind of following that lead artificially. A great analogy and this is something that I put on social media before us.
Once upon a time, Adolf Hitler won an election in Germany, and the people that voted for him started to believe what he was saying. Now, this is an extreme example, but this shows how human beings work. Okay, And then when Hitler wasn't the whatever over there anymore what's the
word the fewer anymore? The people still had to be people, and they had to come to terms with the fact that they were wrong, and they had to seek forgiveness, right, but they needed a soft place to land, because there's still people and we don't want to be like you, right. What was that song Hendry put out?
They not like us right, right?
So we don't want to be the worst version of what we've seen. And I think that focusing more of the conversation on what we connect over. You know, again, Amy asked me about my sons. He asked me about the show, this show that exists in political opposition to one of the programming that he creates. How's the show doing.
I wish some of our countrymen, like the example that you use, had moved on from those from that ideology, and instead of moving on, they seem to have doubled down. So it's the hopefulness and the example that you use of returning back to humanity and having a soft place to land that has to be desired and sought out, and that's not what these people are on.
No. No, But this is a long road that we're walking, and I think that just you know, before we conclude this first half, just kind of having a little bit of space in your heart to remember I'm talking to someone who is wrong and doesn't yet know it. That goes a long way toward keeping the place a soft place for them. Land in terms of forgiveness,