Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I'm your host, Rams' job.
He is Rams' joh I am q Ward. You are listening to Civic Cipher DD.
You are welcome back to the show. Que. I have missed you terribly.
I'm tired. I'm about to change my zip code to thirty five thousand.
Feet listen man. Obviously we've had a lot to talk about, you know, for those that were able to tune into last week's episode, we thought it was appropriate to give you a follow up to you know, the Israel Hamas war as it's being called, just to check in with some people that we know that are more familiar with the goings on than we are. And last week we had on Ammy Horwitz, who was able to say his piece. He's a person who very much sympathized us with Israel's plight.
I've admitted that since gaining more information, my sympathies have shifted more in favor of the Palestinian human beings who are suffering daily. And one person who has helped us tell this story so far is Suzanne Oslam and she joins us again today, so welcome back to the show. Thank you. And for those that don't know, she is
a human rights major a former Miss arab USA. She is an actress as well as an activist turned writer and as an activist and a Palestinian American, she spent time in Palestine working with a peacekeeping team and has a deep personal understanding of the occupation. I implore you to follow her social media. I'll say it again, but I want to say it right now for those who are able to get to their devices. She is at the activist and I love that because I think it
really does embody who she is and what she stands for. Now, before we get to that conversation, it's time to discuss some Ebony excellence. Q. How does that sound.
I'm over here trying to go live and Rams wants to put me to work, so I guess I will go back to work.
J we shall.
This week's Ebny Excellence is brought to you by Actively Black. Visit actively black dot com, where the good people there believe that there's greatness in our DNA.
We believe that too.
This is from the World Food Program, WFP dot Org, Washington, DC, United Nations World Food Program, Good World Ambassador and Multiplatinum Global Recording Artists. The Weekend is directing two point five million dollars from his Exo Humanitarian Fund towards WFP's humanitarian response effort in Gaza. This donation, which equates to four million emergency meals, will fund eight hundred and twenty metric tons of food parcels that could feed more than one
hundred seventy three thousand Palestinians for two weeks. The Weekend's contribution comes at a critical moment in WFP's response effort, as it racists to feed more than one million Gazans on the verge of starvation. Since the crisis begin on October seventh, WFPS provided food assistance to more than eight hundred and fifty six thousand Palestinians in coordination with other
UN agencies in local and regional implementation partners. During the recent humanitarian pause and fighting, WFPS reached more than one hundred and twenty one thousand people, including and hard to reach areas previously inaccessible within Gaza. Food assistance has included fresh bread, fortified date bars, canned food, wheat flour, pasta, tomato paste, and oil. WFP continues to move as many trucks as possible full of food and aid into Gaza
during the humanitarian pause. Somebody's doing something. Yeah, shout out, though we wish we could all do so much more. Shout out to the weekend. Yeah, man, that is a very special thing. And you know what, it feels like the right thing. It doesn't feel like me more than that, it's just the right thing to do. So have any excellence if I've ever seen it.
Now, a lot of people had a lot to say about last week's episode, and you know, what we did was very much intentional. He is a person that comes onto the show and he shares his opinions, most of which we disagree with. But if we're not having conversations, we're not learning, we're not growing.
So and we also cannot ever put ourselves in a position where our stance, our opinion, and our feelings are the only ones that matter. We've seen people try to do that to us, and we've sworn never to put ourselves in that position of moral or intellectual superiority where only what we think and feel is what we'll present. But there's a such thing as truth and that is very important to us as well.
So, speaking of which our special guest is here today. You did hear I did the episode that we did last week with Amy Horwitz.
And I know there was a few parts that may have stood out to you. Yes, I want to let you talk to us uninterrupted and give us your thoughts on the conversation that we had last week, and then we'll go from there in terms of additional questions. But you tell us what you heard that was right wrong, needs clarification, clarity, nuance, etc.
Okay, listening to that was really difficult for me because I'm listening to a person who essentially was dehumanizing my entire people. And this is pretty normal. We've heard this our entire lives. One of the things that he said Israel feels a moral responsibility in terms of how it deals with that enemy. I have zero proof of this being true. There's nothing about what they do that's moral. The fact that they have to say we are the
most moral army in the world. Who says that unless they're actually trying to combat the narrative The truth in that they are not the most moral army in the world. I have no proof that they've ever been a moral army. I have proof that they have not been a moral army.
They have violated every single international law that exists. So it's you can't you can't just say things like that and expect that that to be it, for that to be enough without any evidence underneath it and all of the evidences to the contrary.
I want to add something real quick. I'm not just throw you off, but there was a time when I did have a moment in that conversation where I asked him about the prevalence of videos that are being shown where there are Israeli soldiers dehumanizing these human beings and it's like funny, And I remember them pushing back, sort of saying something like, well, these are kind of like individual actors. And the point I think I was trying to make is that individual actors you might see six
eight ten. When you see dozens and dozens and dozens and they're making videos, I think it gives you more insight into the mentality of this group of individuals. So I think that that kind of for those who may not be as familiar, I wanted you to know that that was where this part of the conversation comes from because last week I did ask on me about his feelings and the people that are very pro Israel their
feelings about all of these videos coming up. And again his position was that these are individual actors, and I think our position is more like, well, after a while, you start to get a sense of the mentality in the army, because again, these are the people recording, meaning that this probably happens when the cameras aren't on as well.
Right, It's really interesting that we would he would say, Oh, they're individual actors and they can't be held responsible for the entire army. Yet everybody in Gaza is he mass hm ooh, how does that work? That makes no sense. And he even said, and I'm jumping up a little bit, but he even said, when you were talking about the number of people who've died, he first of all, questions the numbers. Even though the Secretary of Defense in the United States of America has said it was twenty five
thousand women and children. The Secretary of Defense, who is funding this genocide, gave that number.
There's a lot more than just the Secretary of Defense of the United States of America. There was an article is. Funnily enough, after Amy and I recorded this is something that no one knows and you're learning this in real time. But after that article came out or sorry, after Ami and I recorded, there's an article came out, and I believe it was Time magazine that specifically said these numbers
that are coming out of Gaza are real numbers. And then they had all of the sources that they listed, which many of the sources were indeed the sources that I used prior to going into that conversation with Amy, so as to eliminate that question of whether or not the numbers were valid. So to anybody that has an issue with the numbers, sorry, they're true. Yeah, So that's that, so please continue.
So one of the other things that he said, and this one man cute in my blood boil, he brought up Goldemeir in Goldimeir is a She was the fourth Prime Minister of Israel. Originally, her citizenship said Palestine. There's a video of her saying I'm Palestinian, my citizenship says Palestine.
But eventually she became the Prime Minister of Israel. This is her quote that he kind of loosely said, when p comes, we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. That is gaslighting. That is international gas lighting. That is when a woman is sexually assaulted and we all go, yeah, but what were you wearing? It was your fault? Why were you in a dark alley?
Why were you like? Why were you It's your victim blaming and the fact that he was using that is like this profound thing, like you forced us to do this thing, and we're just so distraught about it as we keep doing it happily. Is It's just so asinine and in no other context, in any other part of the world would this type of dialogue be acceptable. And I don't understand why it's acceptable when we talk about the Palestinians this way.
I want to add something here too. I know I want you to talk, but there's I think these things require content. First Off, thank you for adding that, because I was not able to really heed the gravity of that statement until this very moment. Right. The other thing, and this is something that Amy and I were able to talk about kind of after the show, and again for the benefit of our listeners. There is a question of you know, that distance that you put between the
actions on the ground. So this is just a part of war. This is just how these things go. They made us do it, you know, to your point, And as soon as you flip that narrative over and you say, well, okay, So let's imagine if we're living in a world in twenty twenty three, twenty twenty four where there are people picking body parts of little babies out of rubble, and their Jewish babies, how does how do so come up with the worst possible justification, the best possible justification for
it is it's still a conscionable thing. Is it unconscionable to you to live in the world where there are people picking out body parts of children that could not vote in an election, because that's another big one, right out of a pile of rubble? Could you live in a Is there any justification for that? Period? Full stop? Right? And that's where that conversation breaks down. So I appreciate you making that point, and I will stop there. Please continue.
Like what people failed often to understand or or don't like to talk about, is when she said Goldimir, which Amy used this quote, it's so hard for us to forgive those that force us to kill their sons. We didn't force you to kill us. What are you talking about. You came onto our land, you took it violently, and then you got mad when we fought back. How is that? It's just it's I mean, you're talking to a person where like their reality is so different than what we're
actually experiencing that those conversations are really hard. It's why I didn't want to come here and talk to Amy in person, because our realities are so so different, and he needs to live in that reality and I live in the reality that I've actually seen where my family, my mom benefited from the World Food Program as a baby because they didn't have the means because Israel is
occupying them and committing ethnic cleansing and apartheid. They don't have the opportunities to go out and provide for their families. And yet it's somehow our fault that you killed our babies. Right now, there's a guy named I think it's Aimen, I can't remember Amen Levy. He's the spokesperson for the State of Israel. He's young, he's good looking, he has a British accent, I think if I remember correctly, And he sits there and he goes like, we will never
forgive you for making us do this. Look what you made us do, And what a narrative that is. You made us kill thirty thousand people.
You made us kill thirty thousand of your people. We will never forgive you for it?
Right, wow, this is what this is the narrative that they've been saying since the fourth Prime Minister of Israel.
Again, the gravity it hits different that in a conversation with Ami, that's just kind of a passing comment, but you know, to kind of hear it now. It's how it's been used to suggest that this whole thing is somehow the fault of people suffering.
And they are the victims, like Israel is the victim constantly, and somehow they're the victim and the hero at the exact same time. And it's just the most amazing publicity stunt that you're ever going to see in your lifetime.
So, speaking of which, let's if you've reached a good stopping point. I'm going a stopping point, So talk to me a bit about what it might have felt like for you personally, for your family, for your people. You know that you know, with your activism and the apertures you have into kind of the temperament of the Palestinian people. How has it felt to know that there is increased support and to see the numbers and the data that the support has shifted away from Israel in favor of Palestine.
It's incredibly emotional. There's one part of me. I have so many feelings. There's one part of me that is like, where have you guys been this entire time? Like we didn't just start talking about the six months ago. We've been talking about this. In fact, when after October seventh happened, people are reaching out to me because they're like, wait a minute, this sounds familiar. Haven't you been talking about this?
And I was like yeah, yeah. So there's a part of me that's kind of angry because we weren't believed and heard. And there's another part of me that's like, look, I don't really it doesn't matter, Like I don't care how we got here in a care but I mean, we're here now and I'm so grateful for the support. And there are people that are like obsessing day and night, crying over these little kids who they have no connection to,
and it's been really heartwarming. How and oftentimes they're the ones leading the charge and they're the ones going on protests. It's been really, really beautiful. And there's something about Palestine, and I think I said this on the last show I was on here that is spiritually and energetically powerful that has brought people to a new level of consciousness and awareness. And there's this awakening that is happening, particularly among young people, which is why they want to ban TikTok.
People think it's about China. It is not about China. It's a great cover. It's a great cover because we love China as an enemy. It's not it's about the fact. And they've said this. It's so weird because sometimes they're really savvy as really politicians, and sometimes they're just really blunt and honest. And they have gone on record saying that the narrative has shifted and they're trying to control it.
That's from the ADEO, Yeah.
And that's true of politicians in general. We've seen a shift change where they no longer feel the need to be savvy. They can be blunt and say these things that would have been frowned upon before, because they see that there's a sentiment in their base right where those things aren't frowned upon anymore. So they don't feel the
need to disguise them and use colorful language. They say what they feel with their chest now because they're followers as I call them, and their base they stand with them in unison and their beliefs, So they don't they feel they have the power to actually say what they mean now, so they don't get as savvy.
Or as right.
It's true, they don't do the intellectual gymnastics that they use.
They're not doing the whole diplomatic thing.
Yeah.
One of the things Amy said is and if this is not a perfect quote, it kills us that there are these children, civilians and innocent civilians that are dying. No, it doesn't, No, it doesn't because Israeli politicians are on record, on record in public without any shame or any like. They're not saying this, you know, hidden, It's not like a hot mic. They're just going out and saying there are no innocent people in Gaza, there are no innocent
children in Gaza. They want to resettle Gaza. They're they're being very open with their genocidal intents. Let's let's believe them.
There's there's something else there too. When when they talk about what they're doing amongst themselves or when it comes from there, it doesn't seem like there's a problem. But when you know, we're a media outlet, we're a media organization, when media organizations, because we watch this all right, when media organizations push back and it's a problem here. Let me let me into picture a little bit better for you. There's a statement that we were told early on is
anti semitic. In that statement is you know, from the river to the sea. If not on that, yeah, So I'd love to hear your thoughts. Let me take the picture for the listeners right quick. From the river to the sea, that's an anti Semitic statement. So I was talking to Amy, I've talked to other Jewish people, not Jewish people, Jewish people. I'm talking pro Palestinian people that have a fundamentally different opinion.
I think that's what you meant, Pro israel people, That's what I meant.
Sorry about that, now I'm confusing everybody. Okay, pro Israeli folks, Okay. So I'm told that is an anti Semitic statement. Don't don't make that statement, Okay, no problem, no problem. I love Jewish people. If that hurts you, even if it just hurts you, I'm never gonna argue whether or not it's valid or whatever. If it hurts your feelings, then I don't need to say it. I can get my point across. I have enough words in my brain. Will
be fine, so I don't say it. I go to protest, you know, a free Gaza ro Palaesig protest, you know that sort of stuff, and they have all the chants, right, and I say all the chances, and when they say from the River to the Sea, I don't say that part because even though there's no Jewish people that I know that can hear me, this is the commitment that I've made. And I see the Prime Minister or the whatever, that guy's.
What's the name bibe Benjamin and yahoo mm hm prime Minister of Israel.
And then he says it on the news.
Yes he does.
And then I've told it to Amy and Amy's like, I never never, He doesn't know about that. Remember, he's well, if you if it's been a while since you have heard the episode he did, he was like, no, I didn't. I didn't know that. Can you send me the video of it? So I sent him the video of it. But by then, of course we weren't recording anymore.
But so not only did did Bibe is the nickname that they give Benjamin and Yahoo. So not only did BB say that, but the Likud Party, which is the political party that BB is under, you know, they're like Republican party. In nineteen seventy nine, in their party charter whatever it's called, they wrote, the right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable. And then they say some things, and then between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
Now they're saying only Israeli sovereignty. All we're saying is we want freedom. But they initiated this quote. We just took it and we spun it to say we want freedom from those same locations, from the river to the sea. That's their invention nineteen seventy nine.
You know.
One of the things that I'm increasingly coming to appreciate is that there are a lot of things, a lot of similarities between certainly black Americans, But I think black people and house in people. And I've kind of known this for some months now, but the more I hear stories like this from you and from our other friend, Resistance is beautiful. Couldn't make it today, but you know, God bless him, My hope he's flourishing.
Whatever he's he's doing a lot.
Yeah, he's doing the most. Shout out to him. But what I'm seeing is that there's a lot of similarities. What you mentioned is like, you know, black people were kind of famous for taking negative things and spinning it, as you mentioned, turning it into a good thing. Not
a good thing, but into our own thing. And so you know what what I want to do is I want to talk more about that, and I do want to talk more with you about last week's conversation just because having a response to it, I think that it helps our listeners really understand what it might feel like to be in your shoes and more importantly, how to support. And so that's where gonna go next.