Keep on riding with us as we continue to broadcast the balance and defend the discourse from these hip hop weekly studios. Welcome back to Civic Cipher. I am your host, Ramsey's job. Big shout out to my man c Ward, who is somewhere in South America trying to change the world, and I think we're all going to be a little
bit better for it. Unfortunately, you couldn't be here with a dear friend of ours and a dear friend of the show of Amy Horwitz, who is come back today to help us with an update on the conflict going on in Palestine Israel Hamas war. And for those just joining us, Amy Horwitz is a fellow journalist. He is a man who has gone underground with Hamas and just a gorilla journalist who's on the ground, you know, getting
people's opinions. A conservative journalist. It's important to point that out and over here we're decidedly not conservative folks in the same way, and we're going to continue a conversation that we've been having, so stick around for them. In the meantime, it's time to discuss Baba becoming a better ally. Baba and today's Baba sponsored by Friends of the movement. You can sign up for the free voter wallet from fotmglobal dot com just for black businesses and allied businesses
as well as make an impact whether your spending. Again, that's fotmglobal dot com. Today we are going to shout out my jinf dot org, the most trusted name in Israeli donations. I want to disclose to you that I have done some research on this org and they do have a facet where they fund the IDF in terms of soldiers and protecting the soldiers and so forth. I need you to be aware of that this was given to me by a dear friend of mine, Michael Malice,
who is a supporter of this cause. He is a Jewish man and a decades long friend of mine, and so I'm going to read this with you on his behalf. This is not an endorsement. This is just what we do. And today we're giving the microphone to our Jewish brothers and sisters. So since they're founding in nineteen oh one, Jewish National Fund USA USA's passion commitment envision for the future of Israel and the Jewish people has remained clear
and unwavering. Charity Navigator and Better Business Bureau consistently at wore Jewish National Fund USA with their highest ratings indicating the organization's trustworthiness and fiscal responsibility. You can read more about their vision work and what makes them the leading organization supporting the land and the people of Israel. Excuse me at my dot JNF dot org. So again, this is not a personal endorsement, and I would not personally
ever recommend anyone donate money to fund war. That's just not my way, It's not in my heart. But I was I asked a person that had more insight than me. This was what I was given, and I gave my word that I would share it. And so if this moves you, you have my dot JNF dot org to visit. Next. Now back to Ami, I left us off in the middle of some some sort of debunk or now heavily questioned, uh talking points that I want to get just kind
of a response on. So I'll finish reading them the ones that you can speak to please, the ones that you don't feel are important. We'll just move on cause we still have a ton to cover. I suspect we won't get to all of it. Okay, so the forty beheaded babies. Obviously, that was something that everyone had to reel in. After the fact Hamas's main base being under the Al Shifa Hospital, the Associated Press UH found ultimately one room with a couple of metal cots in it
that looked like it was out of use. The Washington posts that they found no evidence of a base. The Israeli Minish military sorry, found the Gaza Ministry of Health to be a reliable source of info. And you mentioned we spoke before today's meeting that this this information was
not reliable. But when I researched the sources that you gave me and the resources that I was researching prior to that, it turned out that one source was slightly more credible left leaning than the source that you gave me, which was like I believe it was like the tablet or something like that. But the other source was science based, so it doesn't have a bias one way or the other, and it was green lit all the way down. And that source is the I have it right here, give
me one second. The oh sorry, I have it in my email. I'm gonna grab it for you in one second. But so in terms of the numbers, of the people that have been killed, the twenty five thousand women and children, and so forth, the four out of the five hundreds.
No, no, no, not twenty five thousands of the twenty one thousand dead. It is not twenty one thousand women and children were killed.
What we have here thousand women and children. The number is much higher than that. So this is the number of women and people under the age of eighteen makes up twenty five thousand. The difference of adult men would make up the difference in the number of the dead total, which is above thirty thousand. This is based on the numbers from the most credible source that I've found just yet and against science based and in fact, I'll find it to find it for you and share it with you,
just so that you have it here. It is the the lancet. The lancet is kind of a medical It's a.
L I know the left of the lancet is which is highly bia sources.
That's not what I found based on the media, and I use the same media. How can I point it good?
Doesn't make any sense. How can the lancet know anything about how many people were killed in Gaza? This doesn't make any sense. They have to get their number from somewhere. There's only there are only two people who have any sense of what people are being killed, people on the ground in Gaza and these early military.
So let me make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's that's a great point. I'm glad you brought it up. So let me make sure that stated correctly. The Lancet is not saying that the numbers are accurate. They're saying they have found no evidence that the numbers have been inflated. So that is those are two different things, but it's not unlike that what you sent over from the Tablet, which again based on the same the same fact checking source that I use to determine media bias, and I
use it for all of them. I use it for CNN, Fox News, I use it for the Lancet, I used it for the Tablet, I use it for everything that we used for today. So I use that as they define what center is, they define what credible is, and relative to every other source, I can use them as a guidepost. And so what I found based on what was sent over from you the Tablet thing is that, uh, that article that was suggesting that these numbers have somehow
been inflated. What a lot of that article is also speculative. It wasn't based on data. It was just based on these numbers don't quite look right. Wasn't based on these numbers are factually wrong.
Good statistical variability. And the math behind that.
Is data is not necessarily data is data. Data is data. This is how many people died, this is how many people are We don't know. That's data, statistical variability. It could be an anomaly, it could be uh again, just something that people didn't expect to see. But it is not in any way a confirmation. And I suspect that coming from a source that is so questionable, so far right leaning, and so questionable with respect to the tablet, it absolutely is so So this is this is something
that I looked up last night. But that's that's neither here nor there. Because we need right we do need right leaning media sources as well, because between the two somewhere we'll find the truth. So I'm not knocking them for that. Is there's pro Israel right leaning news source. However, they do have questionable uh they publish questionable are to articles and their data is not considered to be reliable across the board, not to the degree that the lance
it is not to the agree. I'm sorry, please your response.
No, no, I'm okay. I disagree. First of all, TABLET. I don't see it as a right wing right wing at all.
The admitted you can. You could look it up on their Wikipedia page. You can look it up on their website.
So I'd say, and the Lancet is absolutely not not UnBias source plans and at no point going, no point going in who's right, who's wrong, who's who's But let me, let me let let's put a let's let's put aside. Yeah, the numbers themselves. No, sorry, we'll deal the numbers. But let's assume that AMASS numbers. As dubious as that sounds, the belief coms number, let's assume their numbers are correct.
Just assume it right, thirty thousand people roughly killed. Again, we have to devoid and both you and I have been emotional about this is an emotional thing, and it's totally normal to the emotional. But but I think ultimately you have to look at the data in context, and
the context is actually kind of simple. Is if you look at the situation that Israel findslf in and you compare it to let's say, where what most people would argue was the most moral, ethical army on Earth today, which is NATO, and you compare them to how many civilians are killed versus militants in Afghanistan, which is a far, far easier place to conduct war in in terms of avoiding civilian casualties. And I think most people argue NATO
tries to avoid civilian casualties. Their average is one militant or three civilians. It's almost static number that they've had for decades when they engage in war. And if you assuming you take Hamas's numbers, right, think both numbers as fact. The amount of how many Hamas militants have been killed, terrorists have been killed that Israel has calculated, and how
many civilians have been killed. You're talking twelve ten to fourteen thousand and Hamas soldiers out of that thirty thousand civilians.
So are suggesting that the Hamas soldiers are including people who are under the age of eighteen. Oh of course, okay, that's that's okay. I see that. That's not something that I delineated in myself. So I wanted to marry no.
Fair enough, and and and normally when you're dealing with a military, you wouldn't because most kids don't fight wars, right, so you would assume that because you don't have fifteen year olds going and trying to kill people. But unfortunately,
let me in this situation, you do so, right. But the point is is that you're talking roughly one point and one point five, so you have for every terrorist who's killed one point five, civilians are killed less than two one to two, which is an again to put in context, in the most difficult possible fighting environment that exists on planet Earth, densely urban warfare is specifically putting its own civilians as shields, which is not botherly not
argued by anybody in that environment. Israel is roughly killing fifty percent less civilians than NATO.
So let me so your point as well made. Let me let me make sure that I push back just a bit right here. So when we talk about the human shields, I think that that you're right when you say that. There's a lot of people who don't question that, right. But what I think that a lot of people who are talking about outside of the very decidedly pro Israel circles, which in my estimation is very insulated from criticism, very insulated from you know, there's there's laws on the books
in Arizona that I've seen with these eyes. You cannot protest the nation state of Israel and enter into a government contract. Otherwise your contract will be dismantled or voided or whatever. I forget seen it myself, see it myself.
Want Okay, the words were, you can't criticize it as well, or you can't can't protest, you can't engage in BDS protest, Okay, I don't. I'm okay, I'm clarified.
But in any of it. The point I'm making here is that again with with pro Israeli folks, they're very insulated from these types of criticisms. But what I would argue is that there are folks who look at this and say, well, that's just the justification that Israel would need to finally get this off right. The human shields thing, right, Oh, well,
they're using the human shields. We mentioned the I believe it's the au It's in my notes, but it's the hospital, right that everyone was thinking, Okay, there's a military base, remember seeing the diagrams one room. This is from the a P. This isn't from Ramses, this isn't from Homy. This is there was one room they found with two cots in it.
CNN, CNN had an entire crew go down there. This is just not true.
Okay, So so the AP is lying because the a P.
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if AP more credible.
Absolutely, trust me, I know this, Okay, I can incredible then seeing.
I can tell you that when the AP interviewed me for a video that I did, and I crushed them in the interview. You know what the AP did, but totally biased interview. They didn't play. They didn't play the interview. CN ended with CEN interviewed and I crushed them interview, they still played it. I don't know. Look, I'm not saying I'm not saying AP is a completely corrupt source of information. I'm not saying that they are a relatively credible source information. But so, but okay, I have to
see the article. I can only tell you that I saw Fox News, CNN go down into the tunnels under Al Shifa, and it wasn't one room. Now, it may not have been, it may not have been the main Hamas military base, but it was an incredibly, incredibly sophisticated system out of there where there are plenty of weapons. List.
Yeah, that's that's that's not in. The Washington Post has another article kind of explaining the whole thing, to which again has a left bias to it, so less credible than the AP in my estimation, I like the news center and I like it to be very credible, right right, But you know, we take both sides around here because
we need to. But the fact is is that you can imagine by saying, Okay, well they have this military base underneath this hospital, and they're using the hospital effectively, using the humans in the hospital as human shields, so we can bomb that hospital. Ops, they're not there. Well, maybe they're under the next hospital. Let's bomb that one. Oh, maybe they're under the next hospital. Let's bomb that one. And as far as I know, I think it's all
but three or four hospitals have been blown up. And so this starts to shift away from Wow, Hamas has this really sophisticated terrorism network to Wow, this really looked like a convenient excuse to just bomb all the infrastructure in the Gaza strip and then now we're back to talking about how folks outside of that insulated bubble are becoming more and more critical of Israel's response, hence the shift in attitudes global support of Israel more in favor
of Palestine. So all of these things work together where folks are now looking at this like, okay, so this is not fair, this is not humanitarian, this does not look like defense at all. There's no hostages recovered that. In fact, the IDF is killing hostages now at this point, that's something that they admitted, you know, And this response and to everyone that says, okay, well, Israel has a right to defend itself, We're not going to call for a ceasefire, it just starts to look as calloused as
it looks. It's just starts to look as self serving as it looks. If in fact, Israel is going after something other than Hamas, could it be land to be whatever you know you said with skinseriocy theory. I cannot prove or disprove that, and I won't try to. But you start to question things, and then people have that, as you mentioned, emotional response like wait a minute, what's going on here? What's going on?
Are you saying there's no terrace infrastructure. I don't understand.
No, there absolutely is, and there are tunnels. There are tunnels there, Okay, But where they're identifying the tunnels and where we're supposed to find all of this stuff? Remember Israel, the Israeli militaries, I believe, the third most powerful military on earth. The intelligence that Israel has is about about there in terms of how sophisticated their intelligence is, their weapons, their training, et cetera.
Indis militaries more powerful than Russia's.
I forgive me if the numbers are wrong, but I know that it's a very powerful military. I believe it's in the top five military. Absolutely. This is something that I've read and maybe that's misinformation. Maybe the Israeli military not going to matter, okay, But I do know what it's. It's a sophisticated operation. It is not.
It is not anything aistic is itst is no joke.
It is Okay. So with the military that powerful, making a mistake like that, you.
Have almost making mistakes, no matter how sophisticated you are, is part of war.
Leaning into them is not. Leaning into them is not. And if it is, if leaning into your mistakes is a part of war. Then discuss again the the response of the world. See my thinking is, Amy, I love Jewish people, man. I've hugged when they when they lost loved ones. I've eaten at their tail, I've been in the houses these people took me in. Okay, this happened. I know. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. I have to hear what you have to say.
But let me say this, Okay. These people I love with my whole heart.
I know it.
And then I see this response from Israel in the name of those Jewish people, in the name of defending those Jewish people, okay, and then I have to be critical of that response because those Palestinian folks, even though I haven't met any Palestinian folks until this time in my life, my default setting is to love them the same, okay, And when I do, I run the risk of being
anti Semitic. Huh me me. I run the risk of being called this, and so does everyone else, right, and so you become fearful of these criticisms, and so when you ask these questions like listen, is this just justification
to do this? Because you can say that, and then we can have that conversation, which I don't suspect it will ever happen, and I don't know that it is, but you start to see that global support shift away, and then you start questioning, Listen, is this guy, this met and Yahoo guy, is he really acting in the best interest of Jewish populations globally? Because you've been on the ground at universities and you've seen a change in temperature for Jewish people. You've seen that, and that's something
that breaks my heart. And I suspect it's because of his response murdering all these people who have nothing to do with it. He did not vote in that election there and and the people that join Hamas, I Hamas call it a terrorist organization. I'll agree with you, okay. But the people that join that, I question what alternative do they have? Do I sit here and get bombed or do I fight back? And if I fight back, how does it look? Are these are people fighting? Do I join them? Okay?
Ras? First of all, you know you know that I would defend you to the death for something. Call you and semitic, right, you know that?
Thank you? Hammy?
Okay, you know I don't you don't have an en Semitic bone in your body. But what my my point is is that I think sometimes we get lost in the anecdote and we're losing. We're losing the what I was the data I was breaking up before. Like, look, we could argue back and forth again, can mistakes be made, States can be made, Mistakes have been made, But ultimately you're not and cannot impeach an overall statistic of the amount of civilians who were killed relative to the amount
of terrorists who were killed. Now to go back to for a moment to what you said about what choice they have again, I can't stress enough before October seventh, they had their own essentially nation state. What do you mean what choice they had? They were making all their own political choices, their own economic choices. They were essentially what it almost was was a dry run for a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Okay, which by the way, I think ultimately that's where we have
to be. But it makes that argument very hard when people on the right say to me, well, look what happened with Gaza. We gave them essentially a state they made to a terrorist state. You cannot find a single example of Israel attacking or bombing Gaza when it wasn't responding from attacks from Gaza. Not one. There always a response now when one says, well, how do you compare you know, fifteen hundred people being killed to thirty thousand,
because that's not proportional, right, that doesn't seem proportional. That's not what proportionality is. That's not in the law. And we can only go by the laws of war, right, which have been set up for years over the court actually with the course of centuries, and there is or will not be prosecuted for war crimes. And I'm sorry they will not be found guilty of war crimes because
they're not committee war crimes. They are following the rules of war, how ugly they may seem to be, including proportionality, and we can get to that later. But that's I want to stress that.
Well, this show is way too short and it's heartbreaking because there's so much more that we need to talk about. I appreciate you talking to me because it allows me
some understanding and hopefully it allows our listeners some understanding. Naturally, there are people who would would push back, and I suspect that I need to have less talking points in an episode when it comes to something like this, because a lot of these we cannot simply just gloss over, and that's what we've done, and still we haven't gotten to the videos that are on your social media that I would naturally be very critical of your methods of
you know, context blind spots, all these sorts of things, and I'm sure you would welcome that, but we're going to have to table that for another discussion. Discussion. Please real quick before we go, please drop your social media so folks can tap in with you, just.
At Ammi Horowitz and all the major socials.
Absolutely, and of course you can follow me at Ramsey's job. You can follow the show at Civic Cipher. Ammy. We're gonna have to have you back on again to finish this conversation. I hope you'll come back, but until then, peace,