303 | Mark Cochiolo

[SPEAKER_02]: Man, when I got out of that helicopter, I zipped down that line, it was the last guy on the fast rope.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I hit the deck, I thought I was right in the middle where the, you know, the rope, you know, I looked at it, you know, right before you go, you look down when you're nodding, okay, we're good, zing down there, and I hit the deck, and I pushed the rope away, and I stepped back to grab my gun, and I stepped back into nothing, because I always, my heels were right on the edge, and I stepped back. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, so the last thing goes through your head before you die.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was just really disappointed. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, fuck, let's go! [SPEAKER_03]: Welcome to Citizen, we've got a special guest today, Mark Kochil, or Coach, or whatever. [SPEAKER_03]: We'll get there. [SPEAKER_03]: You have done a couple of things in your life and we're going to get into a few of them. [SPEAKER_03]: How about that? [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, good intro, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Where did you, uh, I like to, I like to get in the Beatles pass, but where did you grow up?

[SPEAKER_03]: I grew up, uh, I'm a California kid. [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, I was born in LA and they're all my years. [SPEAKER_03]: Where in LA? [SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea. [SPEAKER_02]: I was really young then. [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, we didn't stay there very long. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I did, uh, on my elementary school and place called, uh, Pismo Beach, California. [SPEAKER_02]: Mm-hmm. [SPEAKER_02]: And the worst places to go to school probably in elementary school.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was a little different back then in the seventies. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, then we moved up to San Jose and I did junior high school up there and joined the Navy to get the hell out of East San Jose. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, you say it was a is not great. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's still not great. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, even though the prices of property have gone way up. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they're still just, it's horrible.

[SPEAKER_03]: Even Palo Alto, you said, it's fucked up. [SPEAKER_03]: Like there's so there's trailer parks and methods. [SPEAKER_03]: And like when you say Palo Alto people think of Silicon Valley, it's not all Silicon Valley out there, my friend. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, uh, there are parts that are dodgy, I guess, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, a good number of the kids I grew up with are their dead or in jail.

[SPEAKER_02]: So, uh, you know, joining the Navy is probably the right idea. [SPEAKER_03]: What made you decide to join the Navy specifically? [SPEAKER_03]: Was it, uh, um, was it Charlie Sheen?

[SPEAKER_03]: No, no, this is, I joined the Navy in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, in, [SPEAKER_03]: That was I think that came after as well. [SPEAKER_03]: Wasn't that in eighty six?

[SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea might have been who knows. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know was eighty two. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: So there you go. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so Richard gear then got it. [SPEAKER_03]: No, no. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, no, I mean nobody. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't join the Navy for any specific reason except you get money to go to college. [SPEAKER_03]: Sure, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Like you didn't know that you wanted to be a seal or anything?

[SPEAKER_03]: No, what do you know what a seal was? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, back then nobody had any. [SPEAKER_03]: I had no idea. [SPEAKER_03]: I was most of my buddies energy. [SPEAKER_03]: Why guys? [SPEAKER_03]: Tier one or two. [SPEAKER_03]: It's Charlie Sheen, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Or nine, eleven or some combination of the two? [SPEAKER_03]: Nine, eleven was like, all right. [SPEAKER_03]: I got to join the military, but it's like, well, where am I going to go?

[SPEAKER_03]: Obviously, the seals are cool. [SPEAKER_03]: People like that, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: It was either that or like, Rangers, because of Blackhawk down people seeing that lot, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: It's good advertising, I guess. [SPEAKER_03]: So for you, it was just kind of luck at the draw, guys. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just came in looking for money to go to college and both my parents or high school teachers.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's, you know, five of us brothers. [SPEAKER_02]: So they'd have me money to send this to college, but you're going to college. [SPEAKER_02]: So I went and tried to find my own way and joined the Navy to get money for college. [SPEAKER_02]: And when I got to boot camp, it was just really stupid and easy. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, are you kidding me? [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you guys, so what was your job going in? [SPEAKER_03]: They assigned you some kind of career field.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, I was a photographer's mate. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: What? [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, photographers mate. [SPEAKER_02]: What the fuck is that mean? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they don't have those anymore with that. [SPEAKER_03]: I know it boasts me. [SPEAKER_03]: That's like a thing. [SPEAKER_03]: I've never heard of photographers mate. [SPEAKER_03]: Is that like a chaplain's assistant, but for a photographer basically? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, you are a photographer.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: But it's, that's, you're a mate of some bad. [SPEAKER_02]: It's anything. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, that's, that's why everybody calls you guys gay all the time. [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know really understood with that so so you go to base and this is like a Lot of it is the same for Air Force to the army luckily Well, I don't know if it's lucky or not, but typically speaking

[SPEAKER_03]: You're if you're infantry unit infantry basic and if your combat arms are in a combat arms basic people that aren't people that are like calf scouts and she'll like that they don't go to four jacks and with pokes to go to basic basically all though they to me they're still put right but you know there's degrees of poke pokebury But yeah, you guys it's like one kind of thing yeah, and you're learning to you know make a lot of classroom stuff fold your clothes and march and drill it sir.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm what drill and selling really is is [SPEAKER_03]: I understand the point of it, and I don't want to get in trouble with, I don't know. [SPEAKER_03]: The blue book is important, I guess, as an aperture man, but it's tedious. [SPEAKER_03]: If you're a high performer, basic training sucks. [SPEAKER_03]: It was the most annoying and boring.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like, I just, I got so mentally bored that I was, I would just start trolling to shit out of people all the time, getting into like arguments with people about dumb shit. [SPEAKER_03]: I just won, this one drill started, he was up my ass all the time. [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, yeah, I actually think he'd like me because we had fun with it this one time. [SPEAKER_03]: We're all getting into the back of an LMTV, we're supposed to be.

[SPEAKER_03]: And one of the other guys came over and he was like don't get in that fucking truck and then might one of my drills was like You better get in that truck and he goes we're gonna do now smart guy I'm like I'm gonna wait for one need to leave and do what the other guy said That's real fucking clever, but yeah, that's like what you resort to Yeah, so at what point during that process did you decide like all right?

[SPEAKER_03]: I gotta go do something else [SPEAKER_02]: Well, there was a, uh, they have these mutated T seal motivators that kind of haunt, uh, you know, recruit training. [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, I just, like, hey, you know, this is really dumb. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, hey, we got this UDT sealed thing. [SPEAKER_02]: Like what's that? [SPEAKER_02]: It's why you get to jump at airplanes, shoot guns and blow shit up. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, yeah, yeah, sign me up.

[SPEAKER_02]: And that's, that's how it all started. [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't even know what a seal was until I was one pretty much. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just the challenge. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, and [SPEAKER_03]: What was it? [SPEAKER_03]: Back then, because I'm sure things have changed now quite a bit. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, nobody uses the phrase UDT anymore. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: You might be the last guy. [SPEAKER_03]: So you and Jesse Ventura might be the last you do.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's out there. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, don't mention me and haven't had the same breath. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, I'd say it for the, I guess he was ten or twelve years before you. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: He was out. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's like not many people use that phrase anymore. [SPEAKER_03]: What was, was there still the same pipeline? [SPEAKER_03]: You go to Buds. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, something different.

[SPEAKER_02]: Back in the old days, they had UDT and they had seals. [SPEAKER_02]: And UDT was under one of our demolition teams. [SPEAKER_02]: And seals were the combat arm. [SPEAKER_02]: But I don't know what I'd like to say. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, basically. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it was all Vietnam. [SPEAKER_02]: We call it focus, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Because that was the war they had at the time. [SPEAKER_03]: You mean like insertion, grow a warfare style?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: That was the big thing then. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, hell in the eighties, we are just developing the CQB practice that we, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: that we've evolved into now.

[SPEAKER_03]: But, yeah, it was in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in in

[SPEAKER_03]: I guess that makes it a little easier, because you get to do a little bit of training with this dude before you deploy with him, but I didn't notice that much. [SPEAKER_03]: The only, actually, I'll, the only one I did notice with was what they did with our JTAX type of guys. [SPEAKER_03]: They sent them to us early to train with, and that was very helpful.

[SPEAKER_03]: Now, or the, I think during the later part of the war, and it was, you know, things were just started to turn down a little bit, [SPEAKER_03]: They were just the ball space commander would say, hey, I need ten J tax and they would send ten guys and he would distribute them and they never that was the first time they were met the people they were working with yeah, so that's a little tough right when you're trying to do when you're trying to do de-confliction on like

[SPEAKER_03]: like coordinated operations and stuff like that as a guy and then also beyond with your fires guys getting ready to call in strikes we need to that's a lot of fuck a work for an e-for j-attitude to be fair you know what I mean usually that's what it is when you get a attack p-a control party [SPEAKER_03]: You've got an e-four or maybe e-five guy and then you've got his a sit like e-three e-four assistant right? [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, a big job. [SPEAKER_02]: That's a big job.

[SPEAKER_02]: Big job. [SPEAKER_02]: And they're very confident at all. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, still, fuck me. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's a lot of work. [SPEAKER_03]: And for them to come in and flex on the unit like that, too. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like telling the fire's officer at battalion like, hey, you need to shut the fuck up. [SPEAKER_03]: This is my job. [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: Which is, that's kind of how it has to be sometimes.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So, yeah, the re-orgs have happened. [SPEAKER_03]: I think there was a... I think the Army special missions unit has brought in some native players, like breachers, they added breachers that aren't operators necessarily at their part of the unit down, and stuff like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: That's pretty smart, I think, you know, like to have the work day in a day out, especially if you're an assaulter, [SPEAKER_03]: the coordination, the timing, the non-verbal communication, all that shit matters, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, we can't combine that when I was at Gold Squadron. [SPEAKER_02]: I was a breacher, and that was just like your collateral duty, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's what it used to be, right? [SPEAKER_02]: But it was good.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was, it worked really good. [SPEAKER_02]: I would put us up against the Army's SMU breachers any day, because we were all seals and we're all tier one guy, so we were pre-motivated. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's, it's interesting now because like my buddy, who's over there? [SPEAKER_03]: He's a ranger, carries a son, blows all their doors. [SPEAKER_03]: This is job and like them. [SPEAKER_03]: That's a pretty fucking fun job to be honest dude.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like you got the, you might have the best job in the entire military. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I mean, they've been doing augmentations with, uh, uh, the command for a while where you just get hyperformers from, you know, whatever team. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And they'll come over and, uh, you know, work for a couple of months with you. [SPEAKER_02]: Really? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then they don't go through green team and all that stuff.

[SPEAKER_02]: No, but they're not doing, they're not, you know, stacking on a door. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: But they're, they're doing, especially the, uh, the combat controller type guys, uh, J tax. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, not combat controller. [SPEAKER_03]: So how did that go for you? [SPEAKER_03]: You were, uh, you go to whatever that is. [SPEAKER_03]: Did they call it Buds back then? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was still Buds. [SPEAKER_02]: Uh, it was a little different then. [SPEAKER_02]: It was, uh, like how, what do you mean? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, people ask me, hey, how's train change? [SPEAKER_02]: Is it harder now? [SPEAKER_02]: Like, no, no, it was harder when I went through, but it's more difficult now. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay, and the skill wise more double skill wise. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the more important thing, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: We're like cavemen like us for like, let's make it as hard as we can. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like, well, that might not be the best solution, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Hey, it was a good formula for the time, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but it was six months long. [SPEAKER_03]: Holy shit. [SPEAKER_03]: Six months. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Still just a hell week. [SPEAKER_02]: One hell week. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it was after week three still. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there's three phases. [SPEAKER_02]: First phase that's just a kick in the nuts. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, straight up, serve torture, log PT, all the stuff that you see. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's where how we fall down. [SPEAKER_02]: And then second phase back then was land warfare, but they've switched it so you go to diving and second phase now. [SPEAKER_02]: And land warfare was like, okay, here's a gun on a bomb. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, and you're kicking the nuts.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then diving was just an underwater kick in the nuts. [SPEAKER_02]: So six months of getting your ship pushed in. [SPEAKER_02]: And then you graduate and we started with a hundred and twenty six dudes and twenty two originals finished. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean when the first couple classes wasn't I think the interest rate was like eighty-three or eighty-five percent somewhere in that range.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you want seventy-five or more and just otherwise you're just not doing it right. [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know guys once you made it through then [SPEAKER_03]: you just went to your team you get a sign well you went to jumpschool and forebending right just like navy appreciation month yeah yeah we had a bunch we had a bunch of guys marsaw guys to the king through when i was there actually um yeah it's interesting um [SPEAKER_03]: Did you guys do drown proofing back then, too? [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah.

[SPEAKER_03]: It was at the same as it is now with the tie behind your back and you just got to learn how to eat. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it do. [SPEAKER_03]: For me, I've asked a bunch of people about this. [SPEAKER_03]: I always get like somewhat similar answers, but what do you think the point of that is? [SPEAKER_03]: It's to make you comfortable in the water. [SPEAKER_02]: That's all it. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not panic, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, they want to see what you do when you're in this really difficult situation. [SPEAKER_02]: And we have to get the brief. [SPEAKER_02]: You don't just jump in, tie it up. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they start off, okay, you know, here, you know, put your hands behind your back. [SPEAKER_02]: Hold your feet together and then they'll tie just your feet and I'll try just your hands The first thing you got to do is float for like a couple of minutes, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: You just do this bobbing float thing and the instructor was like okay, none of you guys is negative, okay? [SPEAKER_02]: You know everybody floats just relax, you know, so I jump in and I'm just relaxing and I'm close my eyes and then I did just my ears right as my feet [SPEAKER_02]: hit at the bottom of the fifteen foot pool with some authority because I wait a hundred forty three pounds. [SPEAKER_02]: I had no fat on me.

[SPEAKER_02]: So while everybody else was floating, I'm standing there on the bottom of the pool. [SPEAKER_02]: Look it up. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to have to figure something out. [SPEAKER_02]: So during the test, I always kick in the whole time. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, shit. [SPEAKER_02]: So long was it. [SPEAKER_02]: a couple of minutes and then you had to swim down to the end of the pool and back and dive down and grab a mask off the deep end. [SPEAKER_02]: So it is pretty similar then.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, till the day it just like probably the conditions are a little bit maybe [SPEAKER_03]: or maybe maybe the way that they conduct the training is slightly different but the principle sounds like exactly because that's the same thing I've heard from guys that went through twenty years ago yeah oh yeah interesting I guess if it works why change it yeah where'd you go first

[SPEAKER_02]: I was at tilting five for five years and during that time I mean you check in in your platoon basically train you there was no seal tactical training or no we have SKT which is another six months so the pipeline now is a year long before you showed up into a team which is sure what you try it and all that so you're ready to go but yeah

[SPEAKER_02]: you get your team and get it built-in and you know start doing new guy stuff you know carrying heavy shit and getting yelled at you know all that it's growing up there's plenty of screwing up that you do what what year did you get uh to a team like ninety or ninety four eighty six eighty seven eighty seven okay and uh [SPEAKER_03]: I guess the next thing that we did that was serious was Panama that are that next year.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, for the eight, you know, and eight, or eight, or eight, or eight, or eight. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, and then obviously golf stuff, some all your stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you get any good deployments and that early part? [SPEAKER_02]: West Coast, we were pretty much going to the Philippines and just training with the locals and that. [SPEAKER_03]: We guys doing an Arco Terrorism stuff out there because that's a big thing now. [SPEAKER_03]: It has been since the late nineties.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we were doing some stuff, but I'm still not going to talk about that. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I've heard from West Coast guys and first group guys that it's fucking nuts down there. [SPEAKER_03]: You don't ever hear any [SPEAKER_03]: You don't ever, you don't ever hear anything in the press about it. [SPEAKER_03]: Ever. [SPEAKER_03]: But they've had partnerships with Al Qaeda, they've had partnerships with ISIS, they've had partnerships with all sorts of life.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just real, anything else to do? [SPEAKER_02]: That was the border. [SPEAKER_02]: It's just real unpopular to talk about. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, if it's bad. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So West Coast guy and then [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know what they called it back then. [SPEAKER_03]: I guess just sealed him sex, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, okay.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that number, I still get kind of, I take a pause before I say the number because back then, you didn't say it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I was green for development group and you go through green team, you know, all that. [SPEAKER_03]: And it was the same back then going through green team and it things have changed a bit, you know, evolve.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, let's not get into the particulars because that's nobody's fucking business, but yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It's still it's it's you're doing everything it's they're all sealed skills. [SPEAKER_02]: You just take them up to the next slide. [SPEAKER_03]: And is it similar and so far as Debra guys will be there picking their own dudes out of the line-ups and stuff like that or is it?

[SPEAKER_03]: Because that's not necessarily the case for Army Special Forces, it doesn't really work like that, but for Tier one it does, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, yeah, you go through green team, you know, you get your screen, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So you stand in front of a board and they, they talked to you and they look at your record and all that stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: And back then, it was just a, like a verbal, and you just, you take a, you know, the psych about. [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: And, uh, and had an interview and they decided whether you could, you know, join green team or not. [SPEAKER_02]: Now they have like a little mini training deal where he go there for a couple of weeks and they just, you know, beat this not out of you and see what you got. [SPEAKER_02]: And then go, okay, your screen positive. [SPEAKER_03]: Do you think that's more useful than the way it was back in the day?

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, it'll give you a little more of what the guy isn't about rather just, yeah, in interview. [SPEAKER_02]: That's why they're doing it this way now. [SPEAKER_02]: And it seems to be working to get, you know, all the high quality guys that they need. [SPEAKER_03]: What would you say is the most important characteristic for somebody to go from two to one? [SPEAKER_02]: You really got to be a team player. [SPEAKER_02]: You really, really got to, you got to be part of that team.

[SPEAKER_02]: If you're a loner or if you got a personality quirk, you're going to be together like up each other's ass for a long time. [SPEAKER_02]: And if you got friction. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's not good. [SPEAKER_02]: So as long as you can perform, I mean, you got it performed. [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody that's there can perform. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, you would be there in the first place, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just whether you can get along with the team if you're, and if you're not, yeah, the show you the door. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's them. [SPEAKER_03]: Like a guy that just for no reason smells like onion rings or something, like, sorry, bud.

[SPEAKER_03]: I have that same facility, but it's like, for real, you have to be able to operate at peak level, and then you have to be able to decompress at peak level too, especially when you're like people that have a bit in gumfice before, don't understand the short term or micro and the macro effects of adrenaline dumps and stuff like that when you're out somewhere, especially if you're under constant threat, it fucking sucks man.

[SPEAKER_03]: Like you get, you can go from [SPEAKER_03]: I'm the best that's ever been at this to like, oh, I'm kind of feeling going to die. [SPEAKER_03]: It's like all and there's no nothing good left in my body and then all of a sudden you got to get up and fight again. [SPEAKER_03]: Those are really extreme circumstances for you, somatically, for physically to go through that stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: And you can't have weirdos around, right? [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not even been weirdo.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's just, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: You know, those guys that get shown in the door, they go to it back to their regular team. [SPEAKER_02]: And they're high performers. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so it's just, you know, there's not ready for that particular level, more of that level of intimacy, I guess.

[SPEAKER_03]: How was it for you adjusting like team wise, I guess, from, you know, it seems to me like there would be a higher level of accountability. [SPEAKER_03]: Right. [SPEAKER_03]: Every, that, that's usually the case any, any organization, the [SPEAKER_03]: the more you step up, the more you are required to be personally accountable for everything to some degree.

[SPEAKER_03]: Which sounds crazy to go from a more personally accountable than an AVC to a higher level of AVC, right, but it's true. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: It was an interesting switch and you know, I was a West Coast guy. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's our strike against you because, you know, they're not evolving in East Coast. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And, you know, but I'm pretty, I don't know, valuable I guess.

[SPEAKER_02]: So I'm fitting good enough to stay there. [SPEAKER_02]: I was there for eight years as an assaulter. [SPEAKER_03]: It's a good run. [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't, it's, it's, it wears on. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And then what would you do after you went to chief school afterwards, then yeah, at some point? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I made chief in September of uh, two thousand one. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, sweet. [SPEAKER_02]: So we had a really abbreviated chiefs initiation.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, would you, did you go, I don't know how it works in the Navy, so on the, uh, on the army side chief usually go in and tell or something like that or some, some specialty, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: So army chiefs are worn officers. [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: E seven chiefs. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I see. [SPEAKER_02]: That's okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: So you weren't a worn officer then? [SPEAKER_02]: Not then.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: Not them. [SPEAKER_03]: That's why I was saying you became one later. [SPEAKER_03]: That's what I was referring to. [SPEAKER_03]: There you go. [SPEAKER_02]: You see it's terminology, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So so you get promoted to seven. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right as the GWAT kicks off. [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. [SPEAKER_03]: And then you, that now it's time to fuck some shit up. [SPEAKER_02]: And I got promoted with ten other guys on Gold Squadron.

[SPEAKER_03]: So all the same time? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Were they expanding? [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, they were just, we just took the test and boom, there you went. [SPEAKER_02]: And all of us made it. [SPEAKER_03]: And well, there's no billet for E-seven. [SPEAKER_02]: That's just, you know, normally if it's like just one or two guys make it, then they find some responsibility. [SPEAKER_02]: What do I do? [SPEAKER_02]: I remember this.

[SPEAKER_02]: I am, this shit can and, you know, [SPEAKER_02]: Don bomb, whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: I was a E five with anchors. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that was all good. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, you still get paid for it. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: It was it was great. [SPEAKER_03]: Now you sixty seven is a pretty good bump to if I recall. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: So when you like start making money, that's any little more respect there, too. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, I've said you weren't cackies and you know, people actually want to listen to what you have to say. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, dude, it was the same guy yesterday. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so, uh, [SPEAKER_03]: you guys did quite a bit of work and the early parts.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like the first thing Gold Squadron did is they sent us to Bosnia because nobody knew how deep this rabbit hole went. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So we had problems there before with my lowest of it, and all that shit and the, you know, clasp between orthodox and muzzle and shit like that. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but you know, the folks there, they're, they're about as Muslim as, you know, most Americans are Christians. [SPEAKER_03]: You're Albanian Muslims.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yes. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, they don't count. [SPEAKER_02]: They are not fanatics at all. [SPEAKER_02]: They're actually pretty good folks. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that wasn't our problem. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And then, um, so we came back from that and then, uh, went to Afghanistan for, there are, um, our diplomats are shorter, you know, three months because it's kind of intense.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, so did, uh, three months in Afghanistan, uh, you know, all the sightings, you know, just like, hey, they're picking too much bread in this village. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, that's like, [SPEAKER_02]: What kind of intel is this? [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, and I got dinged, we're hitting a house. [SPEAKER_02]: It was basically rocks and timbers, really hilly area, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And when I got out of that helicopter, I zip down that line of the last guy on the fast rope.

[SPEAKER_02]: And when I hit the deck, I thought I was right in the middle where the, you know, the, the rope, what, you where I looked at it, you know, right before you go, you look down when you're nodding, okay, we're good, zing down there. [SPEAKER_02]: And I hit the deck and I pushed the rope away and I stepped back and grabbed my gun and I stepped back into nothing because I was, my heels were right on the edge and I stepped back.

[SPEAKER_02]: Like, so the last thing goes through your head before you die. [SPEAKER_02]: I was just really disappointed. [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, fuck, mother, I'm dead. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and then, you know, you know, you think start hitting a boom, boom, boom, and I stopped. [SPEAKER_02]: And the next thing goes to your head is, fuck, I'm not dead. [SPEAKER_02]: Meanwhile, like I just look over and they see me when I landed on my back, my camelback burst.

[SPEAKER_02]: So there I'm laying in a pretty cool black liquid. [SPEAKER_02]: Like, okay, Coach is dead. [SPEAKER_02]: How do we get off the roof? [SPEAKER_02]: I got my crap back together. [SPEAKER_03]: You gotta walk the fuck back up the stairs. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, I couldn't. [SPEAKER_02]: I was always fucked up. [SPEAKER_02]: I was pre-fucked out. [SPEAKER_02]: I had a big hematoma on my chin and the nods tried to poke my eyes out.

[SPEAKER_02]: But I had clear eye pro on underneath and that's why I got two eyes to look at you today because [SPEAKER_03]: I was, you know, the one smart thing I did that thing all your sergeers sergeers majored out there don't stop talking about eye pro and in the loves. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and so if I'd gone off, two of the sides of the building had just been a one story drop where I went off, it was a two story drop and I get the edge of the first story on the way.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Now, the other side of the building was about a hundred feet before there was anything, because it was built in the side. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's called frog men luck, right? [SPEAKER_02]: You're not lucky enough not to get hurt, but you just don't die. [SPEAKER_03]: This episode of Citizen is brought to you by our title sponsor, Omaha Stakes, Bestics, and the business, the oldest butcher in America is original butcher. [SPEAKER_03]: So it's nineteen seventeen.

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[SPEAKER_03]: So go to firstform.com slash drinker bros, it's the best company in the world, you've seen this with Andy, you've seen the company, we love these guys, it's a very American company, [SPEAKER_03]: So go support them and support us firstform.com slash trigger rows as one STPH OR and dot com slash trigger rows. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, yeah, back to the [SPEAKER_03]: The eldest sighting thing that Intel was pretty rough and that really parts of both of those wars.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh yeah, because you had so many this is just like people that haven't been don't understand it, but Middle Eastern culture is just like they're working out their personal grudges through your Intel. [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so when so down the street is doing this, this is a guy that fucked him over a couple years ago. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: That's it's hero in competition right his body feels it's always something like that me and good god So what happened after that?

[SPEAKER_02]: I mean is that like a did you get a major back injury or anything or your I was pretty banged up my shoulder was jacked up on my back was now danged Then that was I was actually the last mission of that of that particular deployment award so went home They cut the heat and he met him out of my yeah [SPEAKER_02]: out of my shin, and then my shoulder was just impeached. [SPEAKER_02]: It just wouldn't go any farther than ninety degrees.

[SPEAKER_02]: And as well, you got to get an operation. [SPEAKER_02]: We had just found out that we're going to be the ones to go invade Iraq. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, I'm not missing this. [SPEAKER_02]: So they shot me with the cortisol. [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it works and then I was to train and then right before I went out the door and gave me another one to to keep it limbered while we're over there.

[SPEAKER_02]: We said, yeah, that's all you get to go when you get back. [SPEAKER_02]: You got to get surgery. [SPEAKER_02]: So I came back. [SPEAKER_02]: Got surgery and I was about the time I was deciding that I was, you know, you got to get a sit down with yourself. [SPEAKER_02]: Go. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm more of an asset or more of a liability.

[SPEAKER_03]: well that's a you know that that's a level of maturity that's hard to find sometimes to be honest like visiting none of nobody wants to be out of the fight obviously that's your one of your fucking unofficial motto is great literally so it's like you don't want to be out of the fight but you also [SPEAKER_03]: I getting one of your buddies fucked up because you can't lift your arm as unacceptable. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm all that repaired, but you know, my knees were starting to just, you know, I get you. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we just start to wear it on you. [SPEAKER_02]: So I made that decision and I figured it was at eighteen years at that point. [SPEAKER_02]: So like, all right, took the family and moved back to the West Coast. [SPEAKER_02]: Got a job at Warcom, but it's a special warfare command. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Learned how the sausage was made.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd probably the best job in the building. [SPEAKER_02]: I was testing armor and explosives and visual augmentation systems and all that was testing and evaluating combat development. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's kind of like Aberdeen before the Navy. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and then I was working with three retired seal master chiefs and they're like, yes, but you weren't packaging. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but you weren't. [SPEAKER_02]: It's my duty. [SPEAKER_02]: Guys shut up.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'll do it. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: And yeah, I put it in and pick me out first time. [SPEAKER_02]: Damn it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: How's that working in the Navy? [SPEAKER_03]: Is it a spet, like so? [SPEAKER_03]: We would head on it before when you become a warrant in the army. [SPEAKER_03]: It's your trained in some specific, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Intel or logistics. [SPEAKER_03]: A lot of times or certain. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's a little different.

[SPEAKER_02]: You just, you're just expected to be the subject matter expert in whatever.

[SPEAKER_03]: right well that's that's what it is yeah like you're so i the army has logistics guys they obviously pilots um yeah but you're interchangeable it's not yeah i didn't become a breaching war officer i see so what are we just a warrant so you're as expected to if something comes up you gotta go learn it yep i'll shake exactly well that's [SPEAKER_02]: But that's really cool because nobody knows what a warrant officer does.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you have all this free reign just to do whatever. [SPEAKER_02]: It's actually it's it was go. [SPEAKER_03]: So what what if unless I don't know if there's an NDA for this stuff or what kind of which weapons were you evaluating I guess back then. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, I get did the the Scar program. [SPEAKER_03]: So this is like two thousand five maybe four. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I got there in two thousand three. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, and put on warrant in two thousand six.

[SPEAKER_03]: Okay, so scar what else? [SPEAKER_03]: Um, we looked at the sig pistol the two twenty six. [SPEAKER_03]: The one that secret service uses, I think. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll have the two to six for years. [SPEAKER_03]: You guys use that already. [SPEAKER_03]: I think the army was looking at it back. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, we got the one in the late eighties really nice. [SPEAKER_03]: What else?

[SPEAKER_03]: Just more that new forty millimeter was coming from a P who was it was HK the new and the three twenty. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but we couldn't buy that one. [SPEAKER_02]: They part of the Scar program was a [SPEAKER_02]: Another one, you know, so we had to go with the FN version, which I had a little overbuilt, but you know, it was just an ancillary. [SPEAKER_02]: And now every is using the three to one, just because it's sedan small and easy to use.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that and accurate. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the target system on the thing is really nice. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, pretty bitch. [SPEAKER_03]: And you just like keep moving until it turns green. [SPEAKER_02]: But we looked at, you know, various scopes and red dots and the miniature red dots, you know, putting those on like on a like an eight cog piggyback little doctor side on top there.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good little combo because it's lightweight and you don't have to move anything. [SPEAKER_02]: You just have to, you know, go from a chin weld to see the red dot and you're good to go from, you know, me to you out to two hundred yards. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like, I mean, I've got this G-III-III on my e-o-tech, behind my e-o-tech, but it is another movement. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you've got to take your hand off the gun.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, I have to do this with just, you know, where my head is. [SPEAKER_02]: Of course, your height over bore becomes an issue. [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, if you're at close range, you put the red dot right here, between somebody's eyes, you're gonna hit him in the chin. [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, so the top of his head, it's a little bit of a joss head. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, you just gotta fit, yeah.

[SPEAKER_02]: It's easier to do that for me, or it was, just, okay, he's that far away. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we're good. [SPEAKER_03]: What was your favorite setup? [SPEAKER_03]: Or more sixteen guy, what was it what gun did you like? [SPEAKER_02]: It was prior to the four sixteen. [SPEAKER_02]: We just had him for us with the ten inch, the CQBR, the was just an upper receiver. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that with the with the can on it, that got you through most everything.

[SPEAKER_03]: Um, what about handguns? [SPEAKER_03]: You guys carried a two to six. [SPEAKER_02]: Two to six all day long. [SPEAKER_03]: Not that Mark twenty two from the late. [SPEAKER_03]: The Mark twenty three. [SPEAKER_02]: A twenty three. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, from there. [SPEAKER_03]: From that. [SPEAKER_03]: That's from like the eighties, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And it was the offensive and guns. [SPEAKER_03]: You get if you can't shoot somebody, we could beat him to death with it.

[SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it was a great gun. [SPEAKER_02]: It was accurate. [SPEAKER_02]: It did, you know, it was a really nice shooting gun. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but you said and carried. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, [SPEAKER_03]: with a canot to it's huge. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, and then the lamb, the laser and the module, and then they didn't have a holster that you, you could have the all configured in.

[SPEAKER_02]: So like what do you got to draw it, and then put your lamb on it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it just, yeah, it didn't make much sense. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, what so you get into the warrant side and what are you working on then? [SPEAKER_02]: So with the warrant, that came with an unaccompanied year in Bahrain, which, you know, went home with that with the old lady and peeled her off the ceiling, because I met her when I was at Dammit.

[SPEAKER_02]: I'd never done six months deployment with her three months was the longest. [SPEAKER_02]: And I want to be a way for a year. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so I rolled over there as the training officer and the combat systems officer. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, Bahrain's pretty [SPEAKER_03]: Not the worst place in the world to get deployed to you. [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, it's not bad.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's been a way for your wife for your sucks, but like that as far as deployment's go, that's not a bad one. [SPEAKER_03]: It's better than Kuwait and shit like that. [SPEAKER_03]: I was going to be people there. [SPEAKER_02]: I was in Kuwait for like, you know, because okay, here's your warrant, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So what do we need you to do?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, yeah, you don't have to worry about being next to the flag poke as nobody knows who the fuck you are what you're doing. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And there was always sent a meeting, go do stuff, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So I spent a couple of months up in Kuwait and that the Kuwaitian evil base detachment. [SPEAKER_02]: Just ran that. [SPEAKER_02]: That was my first command.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I came back from that and started doing stuff up in Iraq, just all the new Humvee armor, stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: there was being delivered and everything comes through borrowing. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: And then it's from borrowing to equate and then up the road to, you know, over land to, uh, into, uh, into country. [SPEAKER_02]: And, um, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's just to one kind of admin stuff like that. [SPEAKER_02]: It wasn't really worth fighting.

[SPEAKER_02]: I was being a, uh, a force multiplier. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, that's special to you. [SPEAKER_03]: Helps though. [SPEAKER_03]: Somebody that's actually been in gun fights, like, nope. [SPEAKER_03]: Take that off. [SPEAKER_03]: Add that. [SPEAKER_03]: Leave that. [SPEAKER_03]: That helps. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Be honest. [SPEAKER_03]: The end user because we just don't.

[SPEAKER_03]: People like me in the eighty second I don't have that we don't have the time or resources to make that shit happen.

[SPEAKER_03]: We have to deal with it what it gets to us you know what I mean and that then usually it's like we have mechanics that can weld some stuff here and there but for the most part we got what we got you know what I mean so the fact that like having somebody in the supply chain that knows what it is like to be in the gunfight is very useful yeah beyond is which is why they do it obviously [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, I mean, it was an eye opener.

[SPEAKER_02]: It was good, you know, and again, it was just like, you know, when you put on khakis as a chief, you know, you're going to work the next day and people like, they want to listen to you and even more now. [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, what the fuck? [SPEAKER_02]: I was the same guy yesterday. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, you just kind of fake it to make it. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you become the subject matter expert of whatever you're doing. [SPEAKER_02]: Right.

[SPEAKER_02]: Um, you know, I've toys there for a year and then rolled over to basic underwater demolition seal training, which is the last place that any operator wants to go. [SPEAKER_02]: All right. [SPEAKER_02]: That's what I didn't, you know, Lucy, we're like, [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm shooting down from Warfighting for a while before that. [SPEAKER_03]: Otherwise, I would have pissed you up. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, well, they're making guys go to Buds.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_03]: No one go for the guys going through Buds, by the way. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm sure that's only making it worse. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, so how long do you do your instructor time? [SPEAKER_02]: I did three years there as the third phase. [SPEAKER_03]: I guess you have three years as the typical rotation. [SPEAKER_02]: Yep. [SPEAKER_02]: And then that put me at twenty five. [SPEAKER_02]: And I decided that was enough.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the CO was like, you sure. [SPEAKER_02]: I said, yeah, yes, well, you want a job. [SPEAKER_02]: So I rolled over and became a contract buds instructor, because nobody want to go to buds, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So the bright-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, awesome.

[SPEAKER_02]: And you get your figure and stuff out. [SPEAKER_02]: But they prior to having contractors there, you'd have a guy there for two or three years. [SPEAKER_02]: And if you was a good instructor and a good shot, then it showed with the class. [SPEAKER_02]: But you couldn't really write a curriculum to that because you didn't know. [SPEAKER_02]: So you just had to figure out where the class is going to be, they need to make these minimums, and everything after that is gravy.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, once they got us on board, we just started writing stuff down and trying stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: And we put together, took about two, three years. [SPEAKER_02]: But we got a really good program going. [SPEAKER_02]: So it wasn't the class driving anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, no, this day you will do this from this yard line with this many rounds. [SPEAKER_02]: And we built that up. [SPEAKER_02]: And they're still using most of that now from what we put together.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you think that's like, [SPEAKER_03]: pretty uniformly superior methodology. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I know it is because I was trained the old way and basically they just showed you a gun, showed you how to use the sights and then said, you know, if you go and you figure it out. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, now it's not like that anymore. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, and proof is the new guys were out shooting the old guys in the beginning because they had no bad habits.

[SPEAKER_02]: Their technique was clean because we were really worked hard on the fundamentals, you know, you grip your stance, you know, or presentation all that. [SPEAKER_03]: Um, yeah, I mean, it's, I tell people this all the time and like mostly it's about your personal life or, you know, your views on politics or something like that.

[SPEAKER_03]: But usually if something's fucked up, you don't, like if you're a baseball player and you're a swings fucked up, you don't go play home and run Derby. [SPEAKER_03]: You break it down to the fundamental level and get each one of the fundamentals right and then start putting together. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and everybody across the board, you know, as a, as a city member, you have to be proficient to a certain degree, you know, across that line, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And, but you're expected to be higher in certain disciplines, like I was an air guy and a breacher. [SPEAKER_02]: So I can jump pretty good and I knew how to pull things up. [SPEAKER_02]: But I still had to do all the assault or stuff and everything else.

[SPEAKER_02]: So that if you if you fall below that that median That's the thing you need to work on right and that's the thing nobody wants to work on that because you're not good at it You want to do the stuff that you're good at right? [SPEAKER_03]: That is typically the case.

[SPEAKER_03]: Did you guys ever work with asymmetrical warfare group or does the Navy have something like call, like center for army lessons learned, where there's a repository of all this information that kind of goes out to the broader Navy? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, but maybe they're using something like that now.

[SPEAKER_03]: Well we had so we had when I was deployed during the surge in oh seven oh eight to the solder city area there about fifteen months and we had an AWG team there it was a former army tier one guy it was a gold squadron dude in his medic uh... corpsman from uh... the corps and and FBI guy who was a good uh... ssc specialist and he would come out on rates with us and like

[SPEAKER_03]: you know for about a month actually on all the rates we went on he was like here's where you need to look here's how to catalog everything blah blah it's very helpful for us [SPEAKER_03]: And our surprise, like AWS, I think they were most of recruiting guys in the back into their career, or who were already retired. [SPEAKER_03]: The FBI guy was retired. [SPEAKER_03]: The Delta guy was retired.

[SPEAKER_03]: The two Navy guys were still in, but I think they were both getting ready to push back to normal Navy or something like you did. [SPEAKER_03]: So, you know, it's not only, you can't always get the people you want, because it matters who's available, but that was very helpful for us. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, or early on, we had intel guys that would come with us. [SPEAKER_02]: They were just assigned whatever, I don't know what the screening process was.

[SPEAKER_03]: And tell from where from the Navy? [SPEAKER_02]: I have no idea. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I honestly couldn't tell you. [SPEAKER_02]: And we hit the hunt club, which is the the bath party. [SPEAKER_02]: So like, you know, I don't know. [SPEAKER_02]: a country club, right? [SPEAKER_02]: And dry hole, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So we bust through it and like, and so we're just kind of pissed off that we didn't get in a fight. [SPEAKER_02]: And there's just big gask at the front, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: And behind it, so those little card drawers, you pull out, all these little cards, and we pull them out. [SPEAKER_02]: What the hell? [SPEAKER_02]: We're just about to start rat fucking everything, you're bashing around. [SPEAKER_02]: And the other tell guys, so it's hold on a second, pulls it out. [SPEAKER_02]: of dual. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, every member of the bath party. [SPEAKER_02]: Polish addresses like this. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, guys, too.

[SPEAKER_02]: Polish everybody who was a member of that club. [SPEAKER_02]: Their information was in that. [SPEAKER_02]: And so we carefully pulled it out and catalogued it. [SPEAKER_02]: So it was a good thing he was here, otherwise it would have just been garbage. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, the bath party was operational until [SPEAKER_03]: just his spring actually when a sod guy in the post. [SPEAKER_03]: He was the he was the last guy really.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so I wasn't in the Iraqi politics at the time. [SPEAKER_02]: We had a specific job. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, Paul Iraqi politics is go go to her. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, I mean, yeah, there's nothing so much. [SPEAKER_03]: So I don't like U.S. [SPEAKER_03]: politics. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, yeah, there are politicians with the worst people in the world. [SPEAKER_03]: I think. [SPEAKER_03]: So you do this.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're a contractor for the Navy for a while. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, thirteen years. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, it was a fun job. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'd go out and had, you know, teach guys how to shoot. [SPEAKER_02]: And the first year was rough because I had to learn how to teach. [SPEAKER_02]: That's a different thing, right? [SPEAKER_02]: That is a complete. [SPEAKER_03]: Even so even after being a buzz instructor, you had to learn how to teach.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, say I wasn't really a buzz and structure. [SPEAKER_02]: I was the third phase training officer. [SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't have to teach classes, run ranges, run like that. [SPEAKER_02]: So I'd learn how to do all that stuff. [SPEAKER_02]: And you really got to internalize and go, OK, well, why are these guys not doing? [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I knew I meant when I told them. [SPEAKER_02]: Right. [SPEAKER_02]: And they, if they don't get it, it's not because of their idiots.

[SPEAKER_02]: Well, maybe. [SPEAKER_02]: But sometimes. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I need better words. [SPEAKER_02]: I need to be able to figure out how to express myself to make it happen. [SPEAKER_02]: And it just, it takes some time, some reps, and you get it in. [SPEAKER_02]: But, um, yeah, that's, that's where we write, I really learned how to teach.

[SPEAKER_02]: I also had a whole lot of extra time, because, you know, you're out there for a week, um, taught marksmanship for a week, and then you went home. [SPEAKER_02]: and the student stay out there and learn arts and class with arts and class with explosives for a week and then give their brain a break and then you came back for the second week and that was combat shooting.

[SPEAKER_02]: And then I would come back out for the final training exercises and stuff like that but then you'd have two, three weeks between classes with nothing to do because if you're not teaching there's nothing else going on. [SPEAKER_02]: So that's when I started doing, you know, teaching civilians on the side for beer money, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: And then a buddy of mine had an opportunity, a tactical hive, and he came to me because he was still active duty.

[SPEAKER_02]: He couldn't be seen on on camera and say, hey coach, you want to do this? [SPEAKER_02]: I can't know. [SPEAKER_02]: He kidding me. [SPEAKER_02]: And then my wife actually talked me and I was like, you know, you can charge more money if people know your name. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Sure. [SPEAKER_02]: So I just started doing videos for them.

[SPEAKER_02]: And the next four or five years, just we'd knock out a bunch of videos and, you know, just gear history because guys with plate carers, they didn't understand where that came from. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, we used that for so our own crap. [SPEAKER_02]: Hell, one of the best things about going to Damna because you had an air loft that you, that whole bank of machines that you could sell your own shit.

[SPEAKER_03]: It's not like that in the army, but the Marine Corps, if you know a Marine Corps sniper, I don't know about now, back in the day, a Marine Corps sniper or a dude who was an operator in the Navy, they know how to sew, which is a weird skill to have for a gunfighter, right? [SPEAKER_03]: But every Marine Corps sniper I know that was like, nineties, early two thousands, they can, one of my buddies Jeff was a

[SPEAKER_02]: in my eighty-second unit and he was foreign recourse sniper and he would like any time I need someone was like hey can you fucking you know what I mean yeah it's interesting things will come up you know hey I need so you go figure it out right and you make one make sure it works and then you take it to London Bridge training or trading company and they would do scale right [SPEAKER_02]: And we were there R&D because all their stuff was just damn next stuff that they don't know.

[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, that works and then they put it in their catalog pretty much. [SPEAKER_03]: But yeah, it's weird. [SPEAKER_03]: It's interesting how that [SPEAKER_03]: how that all develops over time. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you got Molly that I was a boon to mankind because now you have to sell anything. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I just weave that stuff together. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: I mean, before it was Alice.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yep. [SPEAKER_03]: And that's what I grew up with. [SPEAKER_03]: It was, I mean, I thought Alice was fine. [SPEAKER_03]: It works out. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: It's good as Molly, obviously, but it's good. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not it. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not as much, quite as modular, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I mean, you know, with the Alice kit and if you want to put body on wrong, you were like, you know, just plates and then you threw your kit on over the top.

[SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's more nylon than you need, you know, and when you're working in a maritime environment, you get wet that soaks up all the water and makes you heavier and less comfortable. [SPEAKER_02]: So the less material you can use, [SPEAKER_02]: And now like the cries doing with that high-tech laminate, it doesn't soak up anything. [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't get wet, so you don't weigh an extra when you come out of the water.

[SPEAKER_03]: uh... does in different models now one specifically for jumping in high altitude i mean that none of that should exist back in the day you've been like an eighty-second one i first got there we were wearing falcon ricks at but at the beginning we started uh... we got a molly uh... play carrier not too long after that but at first it was a play carrier with some some i mean you could put self on it but it wouldn't be great in the falcon rig chesapeake over the top of that it's like damn

[SPEAKER_03]: If I'm walking around, uh, naked in this cop or whatever the fuck, and then we get into a gunfight, I got to put on two things now to go, not, I mean, honestly, my first instinct would be to put on the falcon break, because it's got all my shit on it. [SPEAKER_03]: Like, I need bullets more than I need armor from my perspective, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: But, um, yeah, now everything is so nice.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because a lot of it is because it dudes like you to be honest, like, [SPEAKER_03]: All these people got out with the actual gunfighting experience that were like, no, this is stupid. [SPEAKER_03]: Because most of the dudes that I knew that deployed early, two thousands with tier one and two units, or a special activity just on like that, they were buying shit off the internet and having it shipped to Kuwait and putting it together themselves.

[SPEAKER_03]: One of my buddies bought a fucking turret off the internet. [SPEAKER_03]: He also, like, [SPEAKER_03]: Um, he kind of modified, uh, uh, uh, what you call it. [SPEAKER_03]: The M three, uh, mount to put a, uh, to put, uh, foreign weapons on it and shit like that. [SPEAKER_03]: He's an engineer. [SPEAKER_03]: So this is, but he was like, well, in his own shit, so you could put like a PKM on top of a truck and like, all right, dude, that's good for you.

[SPEAKER_03]: But like, that's the locals can do it. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, they definitely can't know if I would trust and do what they could definitely do it. [SPEAKER_03]: Those motherfuckers, [SPEAKER_03]: can build anything out of anything. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the one skill I'll give it to him, man. [SPEAKER_03]: They can they can make some shit. [SPEAKER_03]: So anyways, you're doing farms of structure. [SPEAKER_03]: You're still working for them now, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Or is that done?

[SPEAKER_03]: Well, you're still doing instruction. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still doing instruction. [SPEAKER_02]: That ended for me over last last July. [SPEAKER_02]: And then that other couple [SPEAKER_02]: life events that went on. [SPEAKER_02]: But right about that time, because I've been doing the videos with tactical hive, the guys from Smith and Wesson saw me and they're like, hey, this guy is kind of personable. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe we can do something with him.

[SPEAKER_03]: And they've got their building this, or it's built now, I think, the new training facility out near Knoxville. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's going up right now. [SPEAKER_03]: What's the name of that city? [SPEAKER_02]: Maryville. [SPEAKER_02]: Maryville. [SPEAKER_02]: That's got to get us here, right? [SPEAKER_02]: It's East Tennessee. [SPEAKER_02]: You can't say Maryville. [SPEAKER_02]: You can't say Marvel. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Right there in the middle.

[SPEAKER_03]: It matters. [SPEAKER_03]: It's close to Knoxville, though, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's buddies. [SPEAKER_03]: I got some buddies a little out there. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's, uh, what, what do they expect that to be finished? [SPEAKER_02]: October, but not October. [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry. [SPEAKER_02]: Beginning of September, it should be ready. [SPEAKER_02]: Go as a grand opening. [SPEAKER_02]: It's going to be in September.

[SPEAKER_03]: And it's going to be [SPEAKER_03]: something like the cigarette economy, like you're going to have an actual S&W instructors there, but it's almost an experience, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Because they're like, like, Mark was telling me, I don't know if this is even public information. [SPEAKER_02]: But there's some, there's some driving now. [SPEAKER_03]: It's a rifles. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, we can edit this. [SPEAKER_03]: There's some rifles coming.

[SPEAKER_03]: From Smith to West, and I think that part's public, and that's a good thing to have a place for people to come, use them. [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I mean for, because established new product line even for a company as prestigious as Smith to Weston is not an easy thing to do, especially in this community. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, well, it's going to be, it's not only training, okay, we're going to be using that for product development.

[SPEAKER_02]: So you can, your engineers are over there in the building and they make something, they can just come out and shoot it. [SPEAKER_02]: And everybody can shoot it and get more hands on it, more critiques, I guess. [SPEAKER_02]: We'll bring in like the sales reps and actually train them on Smith and Wilson products as well as like law enforcement is gonna be the first thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna be considerate on teaching. [SPEAKER_02]: Okay. [SPEAKER_02]: Get cops in.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Well the local jurisdictions are helping them out at all. [SPEAKER_03]: Like most cops are firing a hundred rounds a year. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's like that. [SPEAKER_02]: But you know part of you know the system that we developed goes along with dryfire. [SPEAKER_03]: So I'll let you talk about it, but I tell people this all the time it's on blue in the face, you're gonna learn more dry fire and then you do on the ranch.

[SPEAKER_03]: You're going on the range just to confirm that you've learned the thing. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the test. [SPEAKER_02]: The only thing. [SPEAKER_02]: I know we love to shoot, I love to shoot too dude, but you can't always shoot in your living room, right? [SPEAKER_02]: But you can dry fire and everything except feeling the recoil and the bang and hell you can get stuff that you can tell where you're hitting. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff out there, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: No, or even just like, you know, companies make BB guns though the same as your your actual pill like the, uh, what is the air soft guns? [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, air soft, literally identical to the gun. [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe pellet guns on it. [SPEAKER_03]: So you may have a little bit of feedback. [SPEAKER_03]: It's not a lot, but it's enough to like, it's enough where you don't [SPEAKER_03]: Um, the only problem that people have really is anticipating recoil when it comes to that.

[SPEAKER_03]: And then while I guess reacquiring certain side picture, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it doesn't test your grip, you know, because you're not getting the recoil. [SPEAKER_02]: So, you know, your grip might come apart or whatever, but you know, but it's better to do that than nothing. [SPEAKER_02]: And it's really, really cheap because [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you just use your time that yeah, it's your time.

[SPEAKER_02]: You know, and if you dedicate and anybody can dedicate, you know, twenty minutes a week to just, you know, strap on your stuff and just, you know, go through the motions. [SPEAKER_03]: My girl and things I'm crazy because I'm sitting there watching TV and then drawing and pointing at that people's heads on TV and she's like, what are you doing? [SPEAKER_03]: I'm like, this is very valuable for me. [SPEAKER_03]: I know it seems silly, but it's very valuable for me.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it makes it so that it's not automatic, you know, the myelination of the nerve endings. [SPEAKER_02]: So it's like, you build those neural pathways. [SPEAKER_03]: You want it to be like an extension of your body, man. [SPEAKER_03]: You know that you're like a you've been gunfighting for forty something years now, you know what I mean? [SPEAKER_03]: Not that it sounds like a long way out.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but it's what do you what do you guys [SPEAKER_03]: The big plan for Smith and Weston with his new facility, what is it exactly? [SPEAKER_03]: Trying to accomplish. [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like I said, initially, there's going to be a lot of just shake out, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So first, it would be just cops. [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm working fundamentals. [SPEAKER_02]: Because that's all I have time for.

[SPEAKER_02]: A lot of instructors like to talk about fundamentals and then they go straight into, look at these cool drills. [SPEAKER_02]: If we focus on fundamentals, then you just get smoother and faster, and you actually hit what you shoot in that. [SPEAKER_02]: arguably that's what we want at the end. [SPEAKER_02]: It's not going to be, we'll still get the reps in and do cool drills and all that, but it's all going to be focused on especially the grip is huge and your presentation.

[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you know, just the comfort ability level. [SPEAKER_03]: Then this is what I found. [SPEAKER_03]: I did this with all my new guys that came through the eight second. [SPEAKER_03]: I was actually lucky. [SPEAKER_03]: I had one dude that was like from Tennessee, and he had been shooting his whole life, and he was pretty good, right? [SPEAKER_03]: He didn't have bad habits. [SPEAKER_03]: He, he, his dad was in the military, and the other two guys had never seen a gun before.

[SPEAKER_03]: They showed up on my easy. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, like this is the coachable like yeah, yeah, this is the easy I told them straight up like this is the easiest thing you're ever going to learn how to do because it's just mechanics like you can train your body to do this I'm not so you can't you won't necessarily be a lead, but you'll be able to be competent with a gun. [SPEAKER_03]: I think anybody it's at coachable.

[SPEAKER_03]: You can teach them to be pretty good [SPEAKER_02]: Well, and the term used to be basics. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's all the basics. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, well, if you say basics, then that assumes that there's an intermediate and an advanced. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, techniques. [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, but the fundamentals of the fundamentals. [SPEAKER_02]: They don't change what happens is because you've done it. [SPEAKER_02]: You got the reps in nice clean fundamentals.

[SPEAKER_02]: Your times go down. [SPEAKER_02]: Imagine. [SPEAKER_02]: You're not rushing. [SPEAKER_02]: You're just moving at [SPEAKER_02]: Like comfortable speeds, but it looks really fast. [SPEAKER_03]: It sounds like a cliche, but it is the most true thing about performing. [SPEAKER_03]: And any, it doesn't not even just gun stuff. [SPEAKER_03]: It's everything, right? [SPEAKER_03]: You have like a once your body becomes, the reason is because there's no pain, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: It's why people get the yips and sports. [SPEAKER_03]: You start thinking about what you're doing. [SPEAKER_03]: You can't think, gotta do, right? [SPEAKER_03]: Just like train your body to do the right thing and before and then get into the situation and let it do it. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's just gonna happen. [SPEAKER_02]: If you're busy thinking about your gun, you're not thinking about this puzzle that you're solving.

[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's also a keybie is, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So the gun has to be just a second, you know, just part of your body. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, one of the best things a former student told me. [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, it was an SQT. [SPEAKER_02]: Um, it's like, how's it going? [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, oh, Mr. Coach Eolo. [SPEAKER_02]: I entered the room. [SPEAKER_02]: I got a click instead of a bang on my M four.

[SPEAKER_02]: I don't even know where that pistol came from. [SPEAKER_02]: It was just up in my hands and I took the shot. [SPEAKER_02]: Awesome, that's exactly where I want you to be. [SPEAKER_02]: Keep it up. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I like that, you know, the repetition and you can't I think people develop bad habits on the range. [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, yeah, there's there's definite range habits.

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's like, you know, there's something about [SPEAKER_03]: uh... the attention that you can pay to all your mechanics when you drive firing that [SPEAKER_03]: the appeal of looking down range and seeing where the roundlands fucks with, I think. [SPEAKER_03]: I think it messes with your process a little bit to be honest. [SPEAKER_03]: I encourage people just to like, dry fire is free, man. [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't cost you anything, but time.

[SPEAKER_03]: And you can certainly find twenty minutes a week to do this drills, right? [SPEAKER_03]: And you can find a company like yours or a person like you that'll tell you, here's the drills you do for twenty minutes a week and it's going to then go to the range. [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, right. [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I hope you can watch training videos I did for Techive and actually learn something and become a better shot.

[SPEAKER_02]: Of course, if you show up to a class, I'll be able to put my hands on you and you'll just you get better faster. [SPEAKER_02]: And that's just the just the nature of the business area. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I'm actually, I was talking to Mark in January about coming up to check this thing out. [SPEAKER_03]: I think there's actually a grand opening in the second or third week of September, I think. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: And then it opens fully in October.

[SPEAKER_03]: Are you guys getting, I don't know if you know anything about this, but as only like non-profit funding to help deal with these, get these police through, because we've dealt with it. [SPEAKER_03]: with the criminal are the justice initiative where Clark Pennington, I don't know if you're familiar with him but he works at the Independence Fund former cop himself and he

[SPEAKER_03]: runs this program where they teach cops how to deal with veterans in crisis basically like hey this guy uh... it this isn't the dude to walk up on and start saying this or that you just got a hey fuck face let's go right you gotta talk to him like he's a dude um... that's part of that's obviously that's reductive what i'm saying but uh... you guys do you know if anything like that's going on because i know people uh... it's a big problem with police not their fault for the most part they don't get

[SPEAKER_03]: the departments just don't pay for or require the kind of training that you would expect for somebody that carries a gun professionally. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: If they require it, then they have to pay over time to do it or take you off the street during a shift and that's not they're making money on you when you're on the street not when you're training. [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, working in that extra money for over time or bullets or whatever.

[SPEAKER_02]: That's every department has its own issues with that. [SPEAKER_02]: And if there's a way to, you know, get somebody to pay for it to help them out. [SPEAKER_02]: Sure awesome. [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, that's not my area. [SPEAKER_02]: Not my area. [SPEAKER_02]: You know, I'm just there to teach. [SPEAKER_03]: And it, I some, um, one of the, um, somebody from Smith back, it wasn't Mark or somebody else told me they were going to have, um,

[SPEAKER_03]: uh... plot like a lot of events there over the next year so probably to get some attention you know you wanted you want you want people's departments to know that it happens is there are quite a few non-pravots out there that you can get in touch with like hey we want to get this training that training can you guys help us with that that's a thing you and uh... look you're not going to get much better training than from somebody like you to be fair right that's a that's a huge uh... net benefit for our people

[SPEAKER_03]: So that's great. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_02]: So we'll also be, once we have the venue up, we want to like host competitions as well, tactical games and all that. [SPEAKER_00]: Guys like that. [SPEAKER_02]: So then come out and use the facility and just bring more attention to it.

[SPEAKER_02]: and then eventually we're gonna expect it's like right now I'm the only instructor so I was gonna ask about that I will be training the instructors on you know the curriculum and how to my approach to teaching which yeah as worked okay and the other thing is you know I'm primarily gonna be looking for you know former sales go figure right that want to come out and teach but they've got a [SPEAKER_02]: put everything aside, right?

[SPEAKER_02]: Because your guys, you can't, you can't treat civilians, even cops like bud students, or even other team guys. [SPEAKER_02]: So you've got, there's a little filter, you gotta put it on there. [SPEAKER_02]: And just, it's a little bit, just a little more delicate, but still just a strict, just, you don't have the immediate pain compliance that is available to you when teaching Melody. [SPEAKER_03]: If you can't really knife-hand civilians, it doesn't work.

[SPEAKER_02]: Can't make them go wet and sand, you know. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, everybody says they want to train like an ABC, but nah, they don't. [SPEAKER_03]: And so they're doing setups with a fucking four-on-a-pound log in the surf, fuck that. [SPEAKER_03]: I do what that shit. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, look, man, thanks for coming today. [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate all this information. [SPEAKER_03]: This is going to be fun. [SPEAKER_03]: I'm looking forward to it.

[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go out there in September for the opening. [SPEAKER_03]: And then probably come out later and try to shoot some shit when I have time. [SPEAKER_03]: looking forward to it. [SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate you coming out today. [SPEAKER_03]: Tell everybody where they can find you and find all this information so they can go look it up on their own and look into this.

[SPEAKER_03]: Because especially if there is a lot of police officers that watch a show and if you're looking down. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's going to be on training on Smith and Weston.com, you know, that's the best place. [SPEAKER_02]: Probably. [SPEAKER_03]: And you've got training videos out there as well, right? [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Is it something you're still making money on? [SPEAKER_02]: But I didn't make any money on that, you kidding me.

[SPEAKER_02]: That was more just marketing for me. [SPEAKER_02]: And it got me this job, so it wasn't a bad move. [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, I've got training videos on tack hive. [SPEAKER_02]: You can look at that up there and it eventually my goal is to do the same thing for Smith and West and just teach all the stuff that I'm going to be teaching on the range.

[SPEAKER_02]: We'll be available on video because if you don't have the money I want I want to be able to make [SPEAKER_02]: everybody who wants to learn how to shoot. [SPEAKER_02]: I want good information out there because there's a lot of crap out there. [SPEAKER_02]: So if I can put out good information and you know, hey, go here and you can get decent training just by watching a video.

[SPEAKER_02]: But if you want to get better training or you want to learn faster and you have some money, then eventually we'll open up to civilian courses and all that. [SPEAKER_02]: But I want to need a few more instructors to help. [SPEAKER_02]: I'm only one. [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, you're you are one, but you've got a lot of, uh, a lot of experience is going to be a net benefit to that company for sure and definitely to the cops come through.

[SPEAKER_02]: And so when I was at Buds, now I don't know where we're teaching the students how to shoot, but we're also teaching the instructors how to instruct, right? [SPEAKER_02]: So hopefully, that'll, uh, pan out, um, I'll be able to. [SPEAKER_02]: You may just have to go find some of the dudes that you instructed on how to instruct back in the day. [SPEAKER_03]: That's the idea. [SPEAKER_03]: Because I know I know their fundamentals are good, right?

[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. [SPEAKER_03]: Well, thanks for coming today. [SPEAKER_03]: I really appreciate your time. [SPEAKER_03]: Thanks for all your service to this country and your continued services country. [SPEAKER_03]: We really appreciate it. [SPEAKER_03]: Because it's the best country in the world. [SPEAKER_03]: It is. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you, brother. [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, sir. [SPEAKER_03]: Thank you all for listening to this.