Black Business Month w/ Korsha Wilson

black owned businesses in this country. And we actually spoke to our guests today about this very topic almost a year ago. Back then, there was a large push support black businesses after the Black Lives Matter protests of last summer,

and such a push was long overdue. And even if it is not as trendy it was a year ago, these conversations illuminate how supporting your black local businesses go far beyond being a political statement and more importantly, contributes to preserving bashions of American history and encouraging future black colinary leaders of tomorrow. Yes, I'm talking specifically up back restaurants. So I'm gonna shut up now and I'll toss them.

Mike to the incredible Coursier Wilson, who was a food critic, writer and and podcast host, Thank you so much for having me so listen. My first restaurant job, I was seventeen, just graduated high school, and I had been working in this restaurant as a as a bus boy, and so I knew the kitchen staff. And when I got to the kitchen, they put me in the prep kitchen and my boss, you know, I guess the chef was the boss of the kitchen. But my boss was an older

black man by the name of Slim. Kind of hit it off with him, and he showed me that the restaurant had this recipe book that he was supposed to follow, but he with a nod and a wink, said I do things my way, and he had been cooking for a bunch of years, and uh, you know, he just really took me to his wing and showed me a bunch of stuff and and kind of the closest thing i'd have to have a mentor, I guess early on, and he looked out for me and it was great. And then later on when I was I lived in

East Orange. For those that don't know, East Orange is probably black. Yeah, I grew up in Elizabeth, but I lived in East Orange and my two blocks away from where I lived. I lived near Upsala College and and for those that don't know East Orange, it's probably nine percent black. And I was commuting to New York working and on a cook salary, So two seventy a month

apartment was just perfect for me. But I I right down the street two blocks away Althea Gibson who was the well known black tennis player UH champion, and she had a restaurant and I used to go there and at least once a week. Number one it was. It was a block away and it was absolutely delicious, and it was a lot of food that I I didn't know obviously, not growing up with it, and I just would eat through the menu and I was usually the only white person in in in the restaurant, which was

really cool. And I kept going back and then finally like they were like, you know, you know, I struck up a conversation and you know, told when I was a cook, and I was just really interested in what was happening from just my culinary standpoint, and then then it was just great. Then it was like I was I was the guy that they could teach and and

it was it was a lot of fun. Yeah, So restaurants and generall I see as like pillars of communities, but black on restaurants in particular, there they provide edible ties to black food ways in this country. It was really funny because I at the time, I had spent some time in in Gasking in the south of France and southwest France, and so much of the food from the south there was very reminiscent of a lot of the food that I saw Alfia doing in her restaurant,

and and so you found a kinship there. But obviously, so much of American cuisine as we know today was based on, especially down South, of food from that was brought over from Africa and then adapted to what was available locally. And Black food ways are incredibly diverse, from like Southern restaurants to Caribbean restaurants. And one of the ways that we preserve tradition and cuisine is through home

cooking and through cooking that happens in restaurants. And so when you think about like black restaurants in this country, they're really like pillars of history and there you know, they're a way of preserving Black history, which is ultimately American history, right, And I mean it could obviously say that that black cuisine is really American cuisine, especially when you think about regional cuisine. You think of that the cuisine that comes out of the South and the regional

pockets in the South as well. I mean, the food in Louisiana has a different history than the food in Mississippi, for instance. But but all all of that is really out to the black cooks who who actually created the recipes and then handed them down. In fact, when I was a seventeen year old, um young cook right out of high school working in my first restaurant, an elderly black gentleman who um was responsible for doing all of

the recipes in the restaurant. I think back on where we are now and think back on what he said, Yeah, the recipes are good, but I use mine. And yet this was a guy who clearly didn't get credited this as chef in the restaurant. And and that's I guess,

what's what's happening. And so when you talk at out restaurants being pillage of community and in black owned restaurants being community, but it means so much more because I think that there's a dad of gratitude that we need to give to so many of those those black cuisines and cultures, because that is what was really the cornerstone of American cuisine absolutely. I mean, you know, enslaved Africans really laid the foundation for what we considered to be

American food. And you know, they're not given the proper credit for the techniques that they brought, for the ingredients that were brought with them. I mean, I love that you mentioned the regional differences in black food ways because I think, you know, there's this notion that black food is soul food and period, that's it, and that's definitely not the case. It's you know, there are so many like regional differences in black food ways in this country,

and you know that is because of history. That's because of the enslaved Africans that came here, where they were from, the tools and skills they brought with them, and where they landed. And then as you know, migration happened from the South to other parts of the country, the food ways adapted to and so black food ways are really this dynamic piece of American history that's edible. Can we speak a little bit more about the different regional blanquisines

in this country and the links between food and community. Absolutely, so the food ways in particular, I mean it depends on so I grew up in the mid Atlantic. I grew up in Maryland, and so when you think about food, they're like, obviously you think of crab, there's a ton of seafood. But if you go a little bit further south, you're in North Carolina, there's a history of whole hog barbecue.

If you go in further south down Florida's seafood again, but in a totally different way, more accented with the southern flavors that you think of. Louisiana has their own whole barbecue edition, and and seafood plays a big role there. You go to the Midwest, it's hotly and then like I just think one of the biggest and most important part of black food ways is just joy and like the joy of communal dining, coming together, eating, drinking. It's like such a big part of black food ways in

this country. It was like one of the reprieves from the atmosphere of this country in the past, and unfortunately in the present, it's always been like such an important part of black culture. And it's like I wrote the story about fish fries and the importance of Friday night fish fries and black communities across the country, and that actually stems from slavery. It was usually held on Sundays. It was a meal that the people who owned the

enslave Africans didn't have to worry about. Someone would go fishing and bring back some fish and they didn't have to work that day. So it was like a time in which the enslaved Africans could come together and have a meal. And that that tradition carried on as people

migrated across the country. And so you see fried fish is popular on Friday nights in Los Angeles here where I live, in New Jersey, and Harlem in the Northeast in the South, Like all these traditions come from just the joy of like coming together and being able to die. And that's like such an important part of like black food and the black restaurant community in this country. We'll be back with more citizens, chef, So how do how does my go about finding the restaurants they want to support?

You know, there's a saying that when white America catches the cold, black America catches pneumonia, and that has been so true with coronavirus. I mean, you know, running the business and economics are running a restaurant, like the margins are super slim already, and so you know, those businesses have now had to pivot to take out our outdoor dining and have largely been left out of the paycheck protection program and so to become even more difficult to

run and sustain a business in this environment. So yeah, it's it's been really tough. There's a ton of resources um online of black owned restaurants. There's this great app called Okra Eat Okra and it has black owned restaurants across the country and you basically just type in where you are into this app and it will pull up all the black owned restaurants near you and it's wonderful. And so it was started by this couple that had that same question of where do I find black owned restaurants,

Like how do I support black owned restaurants? And so they started this app and just started you know, crowdsourcing data of black owned restaurants across the country and it's such a wonderful resource. So do you see those black owned restaurants that are pillars of the community you know, continue to have a role in that community. Oh my goodness, there's something so beautiful about black owned spaces. You know,

the cooking. For me as a writer, black owned spaces really high light the ingenuity of Black Americans in this country. But the dining and eating together, it's just it's it offers like a bit of safety and comfort in the

country that hasn't always been safe for us. And so it's just it's the most beautiful experience to be in a black owned space and to feel that hospitality, feel that warmth, and taste food that just has generations and generations of history and and savvy, and you know, it's just, you know, I I am constantly blown away by how black people in this country have made a way out of no way. And you taste that in the food.

You taste that just resiliency and that survival and joy in every plate of food that you get in a black owned restaurant. I think that's such a beautiful point. And it reminds me of something you wrote, which is what people of colors say, we're kept in the margins, don't write us off. Um, how does that translate to

black business ownership in the food world. I wrote that in as a response to kind of this sort of you know, this wasn't recently, it was a while ago where people color were saying, you know, the restaurant industry isn't isn't as hospitable to people color as it should be, and basically they kept hearing back, oh, but the restaurant industry is so diverse, like what are you talking about?

And you know, obviously this industry is way better than other industries in this country, and if you look at numbers, sure the industry as a whole is very diverse, but when you're looking at ownership or management level positions and restaurants, it's still mostly white. And so I just wanted people to realize that if you were actually, you know, interested in making things more equitable, interested in making things, you know, actually like sustainable, then you need to listen to people

color when they tell you what's going on. And I think that's the only way that we're gonna make a change in this industry and then those country as if we actually start to listen to people who are marginalized instead of telling them, oh, actually it's okay, what are you talking about? So we we end up actuallyining a cycle when we failed to take a step back and

listen and actually work on changing those numbers. Yeah, and it's so personal to me too, because before I was a food writer, I worked in restaurants and I worked in fine dining, and it felt like even when I went from hostess to server to manager, it felt like there was this glass ceiling of how far I could rise up too, you know, own a restaurant one day,

or you know, be the GM. It was always someone came in, a white man came in and was the GM, you know, and I was the only black woman working there, and so there wasn't really any sort of model for me to follow. It was just you know, will promote you as far as we want you to go. But there wasn't like a clear path to being a GM or even ownership, right, Yeah, you know, I think something

else as I'm listening to you speak. You're right, Uh, you know, there is diverse industry, but the you know, the leaders at the top necessarily don't reflect that diversity. You know. I know in my businesses I had got in in thirty years of owning restaurants, I think I've had two black general managers over the years, and you know, there's that all feeling and you know in the sense that to make it when you're you're black, you can't just be good. You can't just be you know, you know,

someone who excels. You have to be you know, exceptional. You just have to prove yourself. I think that's true for women, and I think that's true for people of color, that you have to just be really exceptional. And in these cases, these two were exceptional. And I guess that that that mentorship is so important because is when you have black on black mentorship, people rise through the ranks, they get the proper training, and that's something else that

you're supporting. You're not only supporting the owner with your dollars, You're you're supporting a culture that will support and and how hold up other other black people so they become, you know, managers in general, and they're trained. And then it's not only incumbent upon you know, it's it's in a large restaurant group, people get lost and you know you've got to have you kind of have to be

really aggressive to climb up the ranks. And and and you know, in some people will look at someone who's black, is being aggressive and saying, well, you know, you're being aggressive, where if it's someone white, it's like they're just a go getter. Yeah, and so yeah, of course, yeah, and and so you're supporting more than just uh, you know, you know the restaurant. You're supporting a whole training ground for future restaurants and for you know, for for leaders

of the industry down the road. So it's it's more than just that plate of food. Black restaurants, like you said, like black restaurants really offer not just the opportunity for diners to like experience this culture and experience this food, but within the walls of the restaurant, it's mentorship in that restaurant and if they decide to do something else

in the future that involves food. I think that's one of the things we don't talk about in the restaurant industry of how, you know, chefs that come up, you know, through the fine dining world and then go on to open up their own spaces, they can always call the chefs that they worked with or the lione cooks that they worked with, who may have their own spots now and ask questions about financials or labor costs, or you know whatever, but black chefs don't have that as much,

and so how do we create more of that? How do we create more spaces where black chefs have that access to mentorship that white chefs have traditionally had. And I think that supporting black restaurants is the way that

we do that. The other thing, I think it's really important, and it's kind of departs a little bit from supporting black owned restaurants, but I really believe that in some of the culinary schools and all the culinary schools, the schools there should be black food studies because when you have I mean, I think about food and finance high do you know food and finance time. I'm a big supporter and I think they do an amazing job. But you go there and they're teaching all these you know,

students who are prominently black and Hispanic. They're teaching Italian and French food, and they're they're not teaching them to love their their cuisine. They're teaching them to love somebody else's cuisine. And you know, I've seen that so many times when you see, uh, you know, young chef that's trained a certain way and it takes him thinking about Kwami when Qualmy opened his first restaurant, he wasn't doing

what he's doing now. And I know he just left his his kids and Kim, but but he wasn't doing He was doing kind of more fancified tasting. And he realized that it didn't work and because it wasn't coming from his soul, wasn't coming from his heart, and he was cooking somebody else's food. And you know, I hear that from so many chefs. I have a friend of

mine who's Persian. His name is Bizad, and he trained in some of the great restaurants around the world, and finally one day said, why aren't I doing Persian food. It's a it's a world class cuisine, and it's in short changing it because either you know, there's no model for that. And so what I think is really really exciting is is I mean even think of Marcus Samielson.

You know, yes, he's he's black. He came through Ethiopia through Sweden, and he was doing Swedish food until one day he said, hey, I got to explore the black side of my my heritage. And he went back to Africa and found those dishes and found those flavors and you know, you think we see what Edward O Jordan's do, what a machine was doing, and you know they're they were trained in more French, you know, French fied restaurants in the Awardo, trained French laundry, and one day said

that's not me. I gotta do my thing. And so I I find that to be really really exciting right now. Like when I went to culinary school, we had cuisines of the America's was like there was a day that was Caribbean food, right for the Caribbean, which is like

fifty something country. Like it was just like, you know, just laughably oversimplified and just like you know, I'm half curb be in and it was just like, wait, why why aren't we spending more time looking at the like depth and complexity of jerk, you know, like there's just as much beauty in that as any French dish or

Italian dish. But you know, we had a whole section on French cookery, and the Mediterranean cuisines of Asia was all compacted together like all of Asia, like, and it's just as a writer, you kind of have to there's that moment of asking myself, oh, wait, why we're talking about the regional like specificity of Italian cuisine from the north to the right, but we're not doing it with

the Caribbean. That doesn't make any sense to me. The cuisines are very different island to island, So you know, as a writer, for me, that's a really exciting thing to try and explore and tease out for readers, like, Okay, here are the ways in which like indigenous communities, enslaved Africans, and colonization all come together to create these different cuisines in the Caribbean that vary from island to island. And

here are some of the dishes. Like just like you were talking about chefs like kind of breaking that why am I not seeing my food cooked this way? Like as a writer, it's like, why am I not seeing my food talked about this way? And that's a really

fun thing to do. So a piece that I wrote last year was about superfine dining restaurant here in New York and the way I experienced that as a black woman and how you know, this was a restaurant that was luded and praised by all white male food critics and it was like, wait a minute, this was actually very uncomfortable for me, Like, and so, you know, what would our food criticism world look like if there were

more black women writing about it? And I think you're seeing it was kind of a a lot of people reached out and said, you know, I hadn't really thought about that or I hadn't really seen it that way, And I think that's happening now people are really looking around them and saying, oh, wait, like, oh, this system was built to like not serve members of my community, black members of my community. So how do we one listen and to make changes to make sure that it

is equitable for everyone? Hey, welcome back to Citizen Chef. I want to turn back briefly to the history of Black Americans in the food industry because the narratives are complex, and in fact, what the narratives I heard is that some black people don't want to work in the service industry because it's too close to being in servitude for a predominantly white audience. Is there truth in that narrative and does that ring true to your experiences? Mm hmm,

so I haven't. I don't know if it's because I'm surrounded by black culinarians, but we all you know, love being in the food industry. I think that there is there is a shame associated with I think in previous generations with working in the hospitality industry, you know, it was more, you know, we want you to be a teacher or a doctor or a lawyer, because of that history of hospitality being us providing service to white folks. But I I think my generation and definitely generations after,

you know, see cooking as an art form. And I don't know if that's because of the ways in which food in general has turned into more of a like pop culture thing, but I think definitely older generations, you know, saw it as kind of a lowly sort of profession and we should try to do something else. But I think my generation and younger it is a platform that

we can use to to be artists and creative. If you know, parents of black children are telling them, you know, no, you don't want to be in the restaurants, who want to be a doctor, You want to be a lawyer, Like every other family in America's telling their kids they don't want to go into the restaurant business. When I told my family I wanted to be a cook, they kind of looked at me a little crazy too, and and so many other people tell the story. But we

touched on the media for a second. Well, if there are no black food writers, who's actually writing that story for that that parent to say, hey, that's a that's a viable and yeah, sure if you want to cook that, I think that's okay. If there's if there are more black journalists, then maybe there would be more examples of why that's a reputable, you know, business to to get into.

And that Oh my goodness, you just touched on like the thesis so my work, because you know, it's not just about documenting what's going on in food right now. You know that that black chefs are doing the incredible, beautiful, brilliant work that black chefs are doing. It's about making sure that you know, a black child in the future, if they want to be a chef or a food writer, or a Somalia or a farmer, they don't have to search as hard as myself or previous generations did to

find examples of people that look like them. They are doing the work that they want to do. And so it's you know, I tried to avoid writing about food and black schofts in this trendy sort of way because this work is actually way more subversive, and I think people realize, like it's about documenting black food for the future because it's been here. It should have been documented then and it wasn't. It's it's happening now and people are going to build on that, like just like the

enslaved Africans that came here lad the foundation. It's about documenting that foundation for people to build on in the future. So why is important to keep this conversation going beyond the current moment into the future. Because when black businesses thrive, communities around them thrive. Restaurants are ecosystems that impact not only the people who work there, but guests, farmers, vendors, neighbors, like the larger communities. So when you make sure these

businesses thrive, you're investing in the future. Right. I think there's a whole other conversation to have around supporting black farmers.

I've read something I think was in Civil Eats that there's a couple of hundred thousands of black farmers that do fifty million dollars in businesses and there's thousands and thousands of white farmers that do over you know, fifty million dollars in business, and so you know, by supporting black restaurants, especially if those restaurants are supporting black farmers, that is I mean obviously that's that's the ecosystem that you need to create and and and continues so everyone

everyone flourishes. Yes, absolutely, Yeah, of course this has great talking to you. Always get to chat with you. Thank you so much. Yeah, I honestly I feel like I could talk to of course, for hours beyond a limited time we have for our show. As mentioned, the black culinary experience is not a monolith, but the through lines identified are intrigic to this country, in this world. They also point out in conversations even just a year later, with such a good reminder that the fight is not over.

In fact, it's really just beginning. I also want to end on a note. Of course, you mentioned about the joy you are serving each plate at a black owned restaurant, and I think those of us who are not black needs remember how lucky we are that we're able to partake in these culinary experiences and how important is that we keep supporting these businesses way beyond end and not just in August. Thanks to Courser Wilson and make sure you check out her podcast, Hungry Society, and, as always,

a very warm thanks to a Place the Table. Citizen Chef is executive produced by Christopher Hasciodas, produced by Gabby Collins, and researched by Lillian Holman. Tell us what you want to hear with the hashtag citizen Chef and we'll catch you next time. Thanks for listening them